{"conversationCode":"716-003","tapeNumber":716,"conversationNumber":3,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-716-003","startDateTime":"1972-05-01T21:31:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-05-01T21:53:00.000Z","startDate":"1-May-1972","startTime":"5:31 PM","endDate":"1-May-1972","endTime":"5:53 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On May 1, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:31 pm to 5:53 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 716-003 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 716-3\n\nDate: May 1, 1972\nTime: 5:31 pm -5:53 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Kissinger’s forthcoming meeting with Le Duc Tho\n                -Public record\n                     -Statement by President\n                           -The President’s view\n                           -Wording\n                     -An announcement\n                           -Statement\n                           -Strength\n                -North Vietnamese offensive\n                     -President's response\n                           -Public support\n                                 -Polls\n                           -Bombing\n                                 -Extent\n                     -Negotiations\n                           -US demands\n                                 -North Vietnamese action\n                                       -Demilitarized zone [DMZ]\n                                       -March 29, 1972 status quo ante\n                                 -Prisoners of war [POW] release\n                     -US bombing\n                -US proposals\n                     -January 25, 1972\n                     -Withdrawal\n                     -POWs\n                     -North Vietnamese response\n                -Negotiations\n                     -Kissinger's opening statement\n                     -North Vietnamese [Le Duc Tho’s] responses\n                     -Tenor of Kissinger's remarks\n\n          -President's Intentions\n-North Vietnamese offensive\n     -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.’s view\n          -National Security Council [NSC] meeting\n     -Melvin R. Laird's previous predictions\n          -Vietnamization\n                -Gen. Creighton W. Abrams, Jr.\n                -Risks\n                -Success\n                      -Reasons\n                -US aid\n                      -Tanks\n                            -Japan\n                            -Trained personnel\n                            -South Vietnamese Losses\n                                  -Military Region [MR] 1\n     -South Vietnamese tank losses\n          -North Vietnamese artillery\n                -Soviet weapons\n                -Effectiveness\n     -North Vietnamese artillery\n          -Number of rounds\n                -Estimates\n                      -Quang Tri\n                      -An Loc\n     -Cambodian operation\n          -Kissinger’s view\n     -South Vietnamese response\n          -Offensive capabilities\n          -Defensive capabilities\n-South Vietnam\n     -Cambodia\n          -Offensive ability\n     -US support\n-North Vietnamese offensive\n     -US response\n          -Lack of new ideas\n                -Laird\n                -Adm. Thomas H. Moorer\n                -Abrams\n     -South Vietnamese defeat\n\n                -US public response\n     -US public opinion\n          -Kissinger's dinner with Rowland Evans and Thomas W. Braden\n                -US response to offensive\n                -The President’s view\n     -North Vietnamese offensive\n          -North Vietnamese targets\n                -Selection\n                      -Kissinger’s forthcoming briefings\n                            -Abrams\n                            -Moorer\n                      -Briefing of President\n                      -Options\n                      -Dikes\n                -B-52s\n                      -Populated areas\n                            -Problems\n                            -Press coverage\n                      -Risks\n          -Haiphong\n                -Recovery\n                -Air strikes\n                      -Piers\n                      -Petroleum, oil and lubricant [POL] dumps\n                      -B52s\n          -Air strikes\n          -Soviet weapons\n                -Quality\n\nSoviet Union\n     -Military capabilities\n           -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]\n                -Gen. Andrew J. Goodpaster\n           -Compared with US military capabilities\n                -The President’s view\n\nUS military establishment\n    -Reorganization\n           -1972 election\n    -John B. Connally\n           -Appointment as Secretary of Defense\n\n                      -The President’s view\n\n     Vietnam\n          -North Vietnamese offensive\n               -Air strikes\n                     -Connally's opinion\n                     -Support in Texas\n                     -Destruction\n                           -Thanh Hoa\n                     -Weather\n                           -Kissinger, Haig\n               -South Vietnamese performance\n                     -Abrams's evaluation\n                           -Laird\n                     -Morale\n               -Air strikes\n                     -Impact\n                     -B-52s\n                           -North Vietnamese casualties\n                     -South Vietnamese actions\n                           -Counterattacks\n                           -Plans\n                                 -Dong Ha, Quang Tri\n          -Ronald L. Ziegler's statements\n               -Stance to press\n          -North Vietnamese offensive\n               -South Vietnamese losses\n                     -Public stance\n                     -Press reports\n                           -Impact on US public\n                           -Laos operation\n                     -Provincial capitals\n          -Memorandum [?]\n               -Retyping\n\n     Kissinger’s schedule\n\nKissinger left at 5:53 pm.","filename":["716a.mp3","716b.mp3"],"tapeStart":"01:25:25","tapeEnd":"01:49:11","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"716-002","nextCode":"716-004","tapeTranscriptFile":"716a.mp3,716b.mp3","transcript":[{"start":5135.7,"end":5136.08,"text":"Okay."},{"start":5136.16,"end":5149.09,"text":"If you want to put all this in, it's going to take a long time just going over that record and feeling active."},{"start":5149.15,"end":5151.75,"text":"Don't, there's any other way to go over it with this."},{"start":5151.79,"end":5158.63,"text":"Just hand it over and here's the record."},{"start":5158.67,"end":5158.97,"text":"High five."},{"start":5159.09,"end":5162.65,"text":"I think the stronger they get, the more quickly to the point."},{"start":5162.76,"end":5164.56,"text":"Okay."},{"start":5166.74,"end":5171.66,"text":"It's been a record of when you talk by his seat, et cetera, et cetera."},{"start":5171.68,"end":5173.1,"text":"It's not going to go down."},{"start":5195.87,"end":5197.03,"text":"On page seven is where you get to it."},{"start":5197.61,"end":5197.77,"text":"Yes."},{"start":5201.69,"end":5207.78,"text":"See, I have here, you said I have in my possession, I actually have a record."},{"start":5207.88,"end":5209.64,"text":"It is a shocking record."},{"start":5209.74,"end":5210.6,"text":"And then put in here."},{"start":5210.62,"end":5211.81,"text":"It's a shocking record."},{"start":5211.9,"end":5213.87,"text":"I said, since we don't have enough time."},{"start":5213.89,"end":5216.05,"text":"It's not a waste of time, but you know it."},{"start":5255.24,"end":5261.12,"text":"What I will do here, Mr. President, is where it says would be restored, I will put wherever it says would, must."},{"start":5269.07,"end":5274.36,"text":"Oh, this is the announcement."},{"start":5274.4,"end":5275.38,"text":"Now, this is still history."},{"start":5292.91,"end":5303.25,"text":"The U.S. in 72 is about to fall from France in 54."},{"start":5303.43,"end":5312.41,"text":"I said, I put there, I put the goal, and I say, the president is prepared to do what it's told me to do, whatever is necessary to stop this invasion."},{"start":5313.55,"end":5315.59,"text":"He will stop at nothing, I warn you."},{"start":5315.61,"end":5319.51,"text":"You say that, he will stop at nothing."},{"start":5320.37,"end":5320.85,"text":"And I can assure"},{"start":5324.71,"end":5324.79,"text":"P.O."},{"start":5352.59,"end":5357.55,"text":"What are the effects of what you're telling us is on our city?"},{"start":5357.59,"end":5359.45,"text":"They have to go back across the D.C."},{"start":5359.47,"end":5361.67,"text":"They have to go back across the D.C."},{"start":5361.69,"end":5363.37,"text":"They have to go back all over the city."},{"start":5381.84,"end":5386.26,"text":"They must release prisoners."},{"start":5386.34,"end":5393.4,"text":"We then will reduce some of the additional forces we brought into the area and stop bombing the north."},{"start":5393.77,"end":5401.83,"text":"That's the first step that we would consider progress."},{"start":5401.91,"end":5408.38,"text":"And the second is, we can say that we started covering our January 27th proposal."},{"start":5410.32,"end":5419.12,"text":"And, frankly, what we have to stay away from now is the idea of a withdrawal for prisoners in the ceasefire."},{"start":5419.32,"end":5422.43,"text":"That's what worries me, is that they're going to come up with our matrix."},{"start":5422.79,"end":5424.05,"text":"Do they accept our matrix?"},{"start":5424.07,"end":5424.23,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":5424.25,"end":5429.55,"text":"Due to the spigot leaks, you mean that, sir?"},{"start":5429.57,"end":5433.23,"text":"Yeah, and because it might be favorable to them."},{"start":5433.27,"end":5435.71,"text":"Well, you can say it."},{"start":5439.31,"end":5445.05,"text":"that's fine to go back to the lines."},{"start":5445.07,"end":5445.43,"text":"That's good."},{"start":5445.45,"end":5447.03,"text":"Provided they go back to the lines, yes."},{"start":5447.13,"end":5453.47,"text":"Yes, you go back to the lines or we take you immediately, but we're not going to take you now."},{"start":5453.65,"end":5457.49,"text":"You cannot be rewarded for your aggression."},{"start":5457.65,"end":5464.19,"text":"What I will do, Mr. President, is first I'll make this stuff open and say that we shouldn't say anything, except show covenant."},{"start":5464.25,"end":5466.13,"text":"Then I'll say now I want to hear what you have to say."},{"start":5467.99,"end":5476.38,"text":"If he gives me a long recital, and this is where it's, you're right, if I'm not presenting the whole thing, if he's going to start a long recital, I've done, I've already heard that."},{"start":5478.24,"end":5479.54,"text":"And I'll be brutal."},{"start":5479.56,"end":5485.84,"text":"I know you will."},{"start":5486.05,"end":5495.43,"text":"If I be as brief as possible, come to the talk, take a look on the final, and say, well, we can't go without a balance, but we're going"},{"start":5500.94,"end":5505.55,"text":"I just want you to know that the president will stop at nothing."},{"start":5506.83,"end":5509.63,"text":"And I just leave that as damn clear."},{"start":5509.67,"end":5510.89,"text":"Because it's absolutely true."},{"start":5510.95,"end":5514.83,"text":"We're prepared to sink the whole ship of this thing."},{"start":5514.85,"end":5518.44,"text":"These people are not going to get away with this."},{"start":5518.56,"end":5520.88,"text":"I agree completely."},{"start":5520.96,"end":5523.78,"text":"I'll say it."},{"start":5523.88,"end":5526.09,"text":"Maybe it's not as pessimistic as it is."},{"start":5527.73,"end":5533.45,"text":"Well, the truth is, Mr. President, we've taken our head over the NFC record."},{"start":5535.75,"end":5540.76,"text":"You remember Laird sitting in there in February telling you you needed no reinforcements?"},{"start":5541.76,"end":5543.46,"text":"The Vietnamization is succeeding."},{"start":5543.5,"end":5546.06,"text":"These guys can do it without American air power."},{"start":5546.88,"end":5552.83,"text":"And the Vietnamization was always a gamble."},{"start":5555.01,"end":5563.49,"text":"We knew it was a gamble, and if it holds, it will be because of the additional stuff you've got out there, because of the heavy tanks you've got out there."},{"start":5564.01,"end":5569.85,"text":"We are sending new heavy tanks now to replace them out of Japan and Okinawa."},{"start":5569.94,"end":5571.57,"text":"Are they using the present heavy tanks at all?"},{"start":5571.6,"end":5575.96,"text":"Well, they're using them, but they don't have enough people trained."},{"start":5576.02,"end":5577.06,"text":"Even the ones we got out there?"},{"start":5577.1,"end":5580.32,"text":"Well, not those they're using, but we've suffered enormous casualties of them."},{"start":5580.36,"end":5582.18,"text":"We had 60 to start with, and they're down to 21 now."},{"start":5582.72,"end":5583.6,"text":"They have lost 40 tanks?"},{"start":5583.62,"end":5584.2,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":5587.94,"end":5593.88,"text":"mostly in military reasons."},{"start":5593.9,"end":5596.21,"text":"Why have they lost the sanctions?"},{"start":5597.65,"end":5598.77,"text":"That artillery is just ."},{"start":5598.85,"end":5599.97,"text":"That Russian artillery is just ."},{"start":5600.01,"end":5603.07,"text":"Russians have always been good with artillery."},{"start":5603.09,"end":5605.59,"text":"Russians have always been good with artillery, these guys."},{"start":5605.67,"end":5609.92,"text":"I like these guys."},{"start":5609.98,"end":5615.16,"text":"Not French artillery, but the Russians have had massive artillery."},{"start":5622.91,"end":5631.09,"text":"Oh, it's another intelligence failure, too."},{"start":5631.11,"end":5642.7,"text":"I mean, when they shoot 1,400, about 4,400 into Quantree, about 1,400 into Amlok day after day, that's 150 tons of ammunition, 100 tons of ammunition a day."},{"start":5644.26,"end":5645.24,"text":"We had no idea."},{"start":5645.32,"end":5647.12,"text":"And that's just ammunition."},{"start":5647.14,"end":5650.98,"text":"You have to add food, and you have to add weapons."},{"start":5652.65,"end":5652.96,"text":"No."},{"start":5654.94,"end":5656.2,"text":"I thought of it last night."},{"start":5656.3,"end":5660.69,"text":"I opened my mind, read this thing, got us into these difficulties."},{"start":5662.3,"end":5671.91,"text":"Mistaken, for which I blame myself last year, we had sat on top of the Cambodians at Laotian Operation last year, the way they're sitting on top of this."},{"start":5673.07,"end":5675.06,"text":"We would have won."},{"start":5675.18,"end":5679.2,"text":"But basically, they wasted the Cambodian Operation tree set, nearly."},{"start":5679.82,"end":5680.7,"text":"That was a disaster."},{"start":5681,"end":5685.18,"text":"Yeah, because they just fooled around with that."},{"start":5685.36,"end":5687.89,"text":"They just didn't pick up the stockpile, I'd say."},{"start":5690.26,"end":5692.88,"text":"So that gave us this capability."},{"start":5693.54,"end":5694.12,"text":"Oh, yes."},{"start":5694.28,"end":5695.12,"text":"Oh, without a doubt."},{"start":5695.16,"end":5698.78,"text":"Well, in 1972, we didn't have an offensive action."},{"start":5698.9,"end":5702.55,"text":"And every year, we had an offensive action."},{"start":5702.59,"end":5703.59,"text":"There was no offensive."},{"start":5710.88,"end":5714.98,"text":"So, uh..."},{"start":5715.02,"end":5720.44,"text":"They're not good on the offensive."},{"start":5721.12,"end":5726.92,"text":"They must be pretty good on the defensive."},{"start":5726.98,"end":5729.31,"text":"But we've been full-fledged about their capabilities."},{"start":5729.36,"end":5731.47,"text":"They're pretty good on the defense."},{"start":5731.55,"end":5732.89,"text":"They're useless on the offense."},{"start":5734.53,"end":5744.33,"text":"And do you remember when they were telling you the Vietnamese could have done Cambodia alone, how they wouldn't be five, they'd still be five miles from the border?"},{"start":5747.83,"end":5750.17,"text":"But the other side must be hurting very fast."},{"start":5750.35,"end":5752.13,"text":"We can't berate ourselves too much."},{"start":5752.91,"end":5759.72,"text":"We've done more than almost the human spirit can bear as it is."},{"start":5759.77,"end":5765.9,"text":"But the point is, right now, if we're prepared enough, I want this goddamn military to come up with some ideas."},{"start":5765.98,"end":5767.84,"text":"I mean, I'm only going to do everything."},{"start":5776.02,"end":5787.69,"text":"No, I remember only too well that you came in and you pleaded with Abrams to come up with some new ideas."},{"start":5791.67,"end":5795.27,"text":"No, we've done superhuman things in keeping this thing alive."},{"start":5803.71,"end":5810.95,"text":"Right now, there would be a hell of a depression for the American people."},{"start":5811.07,"end":5817,"text":"If after this offensive began so late, it is like losing earlier."},{"start":5817.04,"end":5820.28,"text":"The South Vietnamese were defeated."},{"start":5820.3,"end":5822.96,"text":"We got run out of there."},{"start":5822.98,"end":5825.92,"text":"Now, by God, don't ever underestimate what's happening at any point."},{"start":5826.74,"end":5829.14,"text":"There would be a hell of a depression if we got run out of business."},{"start":5829.74,"end":5831.52,"text":"The American people don't want to lose."},{"start":5831.7,"end":5839.74,"text":"The American people got confused there for a year or two because we were trying to win and the opponents were shouting from the rooftops."},{"start":5840.2,"end":5841.43,"text":"That's what screwed them up."},{"start":5843.84,"end":5854.19,"text":"It's – I don't think the American people – I had dinner last night with a number of people, but Roland Evans and Tom Braden were there."},{"start":5855.19,"end":5856.47,"text":"Evans is hawkish as hell."},{"start":5856.51,"end":5858.57,"text":"He said the president has the power in North Carolina."},{"start":5858.59,"end":5860.37,"text":"He said we can't take this."},{"start":5861.33,"end":5864.56,"text":"Braden is beating around, but – He would."},{"start":5864.92,"end":5865.32,"text":"He would."},{"start":5865.38,"end":5866.16,"text":"You'd expect that."},{"start":5866.18,"end":5866.9,"text":"He's savage."},{"start":5866.96,"end":5867.68,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":5868.91,"end":5869.42,"text":"Not as much."},{"start":5869.52,"end":5871.08,"text":"Evidence, evidence is..."},{"start":5902.62,"end":5906.53,"text":"I just want to be sure that pilots and stuff are well selected."},{"start":5907.31,"end":5913.39,"text":"I mean, I don't want to select them, but I just want to be sure that it's worth doing."},{"start":5913.45,"end":5915.03,"text":"I'll get myself a full briefing from Abrams."},{"start":5915.05,"end":5917.01,"text":"I think on almost any conceivable..."},{"start":5917.05,"end":5920.41,"text":"I've got to say it through this time."},{"start":5920.91,"end":5922.98,"text":"All right, we'll get you a briefing."},{"start":5923.03,"end":5924.82,"text":"On almost any conceivable..."},{"start":5924.92,"end":5929.38,"text":"I've got to see some options, too."},{"start":5929.44,"end":5929.7,"text":"Right."},{"start":5933.13,"end":5935.81,"text":"I want to see about the Dykes, too."},{"start":5935.83,"end":5943.67,"text":"The only point, I'll be careful about, Mr. President, is if you order them to use the B-52s and they'll do it, they're apt to get the Korov."},{"start":5943.79,"end":5949.47,"text":"If one of these clusters of B-52s hits a populated area, you're going to have 5,000 dead."},{"start":5949.49,"end":5954.21,"text":"My man, that could be..."},{"start":5955.03,"end":5956.99,"text":"They'd have every camera crew in the world."},{"start":5957.03,"end":5958.31,"text":"They'd have a new atrocity."},{"start":5960.09,"end":5960.94,"text":"They'd beat your brain."},{"start":5960.95,"end":5962.94,"text":"I'm aware of that."},{"start":5962.96,"end":5966.04,"text":"That's why I asked the question."},{"start":5966.06,"end":5968.48,"text":"I know there's a difference."},{"start":5968.52,"end":5969.82,"text":"Yet that's the gamble we always trade."},{"start":5969.84,"end":5972.74,"text":"Well, within rational limits, we should take the gamble."},{"start":5972.77,"end":5975.95,"text":"But I think these..."},{"start":5975.97,"end":5981.65,"text":"I think... We had the intelligence report last week that Haiphong had still not recovered from our last strike."},{"start":5982.65,"end":5986.28,"text":"I think this next weekend we have to lay a tremendous strike on them."},{"start":5988.46,"end":5994.23,"text":"and get as close to the pier as we can and burn out the rest of the P.O.L."},{"start":5994.31,"end":5998.07,"text":"This time we're going to lose some planes because there's some that did that."},{"start":5998.09,"end":6005.57,"text":"Why would you lose B-52s?"},{"start":6006.74,"end":6008.44,"text":"Well, they found a loose one somewhere there."},{"start":6009.02,"end":6009.46,"text":"Oh, so we lose."},{"start":6009.48,"end":6010.56,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":6010.58,"end":6011.6,"text":"It's war."},{"start":6015.09,"end":6016.61,"text":"But we can't wait much longer."},{"start":6016.67,"end":6018.3,"text":"We can't wait longer than that."},{"start":6018.76,"end":6021.32,"text":"You know, the thing that concerns me about all this is Russians."},{"start":6029.53,"end":6033.88,"text":"This raises a great question about all that good texture crap over there in England."},{"start":6033.92,"end":6034.58,"text":"Doesn't it to you?"},{"start":6035.38,"end":6036.68,"text":"Don't you think so, Mr. President?"},{"start":6036.7,"end":6040.96,"text":"I think we get the shit kicked out of us in a conventional operation."},{"start":6041,"end":6047.93,"text":"We have to redo our military establishment as soon as the election is over."},{"start":6047.99,"end":6051.63,"text":"Because by 77, it won't be worth being president of this country anymore."},{"start":6052.13,"end":6053.69,"text":"You know, really, that's the thing."},{"start":6055.87,"end":6056.45,"text":"If he'd do it."},{"start":6056.61,"end":6057.74,"text":"In defense."},{"start":6057.8,"end":6059.48,"text":"If he would do it."},{"start":6059.5,"end":6065.01,"text":"That's what he ought to do."},{"start":6065.03,"end":6065.91,"text":"I don't know if he'd do it."},{"start":6065.97,"end":6067.11,"text":"He'd be superb as Secretary of Defense."},{"start":6067.17,"end":6068.15,"text":"He'd be outstanding."},{"start":6089.34,"end":6104.62,"text":"Well, I've looked at some of those pictures, and we are, you know, with TANWA and so forth, we are getting to them, but of course it takes a while."},{"start":6104.96,"end":6116.79,"text":"I mean, we've dropped the bridge, and now they're moving a lot of stuff through the Bunker Eye Pass, and they've been really shooting that up."},{"start":6121.38,"end":6122.9,"text":"It takes a hell of a long time."},{"start":6128.43,"end":6133.83,"text":"Do you remember when this offensive started in military region one, you and the AAC said we should wait until the weather clears."},{"start":6133.85,"end":6135.95,"text":"It's not as clear."},{"start":6136.09,"end":6139.15,"text":"Now the Carthaginians are not fighting, unfortunately."},{"start":6139.23,"end":6140.93,"text":"That's really the problem."},{"start":6140.95,"end":6142.53,"text":"They couldn't have fought much."},{"start":6165.65,"end":6167.23,"text":"They've got to keep their spirits up."},{"start":6173.76,"end":6177.62,"text":"The spirit is going to determine this thing in the final analysis."},{"start":6178.55,"end":6185.23,"text":"Even lousy, lousy armies that are still defending can survive."},{"start":6189.22,"end":6199.63,"text":"When you look at those boxes of B-52, if they were anywhere near the front lines, they just must inflict some enormous casualties on them."},{"start":6207.87,"end":6214.14,"text":"Because then, after they hit, it's obvious the nation would advance."},{"start":6214.16,"end":6214.42,"text":"That's war."},{"start":6214.48,"end":6215.36,"text":"They don't advance."},{"start":6215.38,"end":6219.12,"text":"After they stopped them, they should have moved up."},{"start":6219.76,"end":6223.42,"text":"And they had this great scheme of an offensive."},{"start":6223.58,"end":6225.02,"text":"And they showed us the plans."},{"start":6225.16,"end":6230.56,"text":"And if they had actually done it, they wouldn't have lost our power, to speak of quantity."},{"start":6265.98,"end":6269.67,"text":"I don't mind your telling the staff."},{"start":6269.81,"end":6272.63,"text":"I think we've got to call our own."},{"start":6286.22,"end":6287.16,"text":"We've lost now only one provincial capital."},{"start":6287.2,"end":6288,"text":"I think that's what we've got to say."},{"start":6288.04,"end":6288.56,"text":"And so forth and so on."},{"start":6288.58,"end":6291.47,"text":"But we still have to bear in mind, I can honestly say that this is a hell of a message supported by the most sophisticated weapons."},{"start":6291.49,"end":6292.23,"text":"And we're going to suffer some losses."},{"start":6292.25,"end":6293.57,"text":"But in the end, the enemy will not be allowed to succeed."},{"start":6293.59,"end":6294.19,"text":"Now, that's the line to take."},{"start":6294.21,"end":6294.57,"text":"Don't you agree?"},{"start":6294.59,"end":6295.79,"text":"And tell them and say, sure, we're going to suffer losses."},{"start":6315.71,"end":6332.78,"text":"As I say, the only problem with pressurizing an enemy is not... ...is the effect on us, but it's the effect of his general positive power becoming discouraged."},{"start":6332.81,"end":6339.37,"text":"If night after night they get the impression that we're going to lose, see, on the other hand, we just keep going."},{"start":6340.94,"end":6342.2,"text":"It is difficult to blouse."},{"start":6342.34,"end":6347.02,"text":"We got that pounded in and pounded down, and we did lose, at least the polygon."},{"start":6348.3,"end":6351.93,"text":"Yeah, but because when it was all over, it looked as if we had lost."},{"start":6352.21,"end":6355.41,"text":"I don't think this was handled that way."},{"start":6355.51,"end":6357.47,"text":"It was by the end of May."},{"start":6359.15,"end":6362.96,"text":"We had lost only one more political capital, or two."},{"start":6365.72,"end":6370.79,"text":"Uh, I just want to get to three times, see if I can handle that."},{"start":6553.49,"end":6555.56,"text":"First of all, I don't even know what he had when he did it."},{"start":6555.64,"end":6556.56,"text":"I'm excited to find out."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":5134.75,"end":6567.5,"startMethod":"silence","endMethod":"silence"},"transcriptConfidence":"high","transcriptSource":"bigtape","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger met to discuss strategy for the upcoming negotiations with North Vietnamese representative Le Duc Tho, emphasizing a firm stance against the ongoing North Vietnamese offensive. They analyzed the effectiveness of the South Vietnamese military, noting significant tank losses attributed to heavy Soviet-supplied artillery, and debated the risks and potential PR fallout of intensified U.S. bombing campaigns. The President directed Kissinger to convey a clear, unwavering resolve to the North Vietnamese, asserting that the U.S. would not accept defeat or reward aggression.","topics":["Vietnam War","Le Duc Tho","North Vietnamese Offensive","Air strikes","Military Strategy","Negotiations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T03:09:51.700Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","le-duc-tho","north-vietnamese-offensive","air-strikes","military-strategy","negotiations"],"audioDurationSec":1426,"audioFiles":[{"file":"716a.mp3","bytes":175199920,"durationSec":7299.92,"bitrate":192001,"missing":false},{"file":"716b.mp3","bytes":67670516,"durationSec":2819.55,"bitrate":192003,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":true,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:57.687Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:21.697Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/716a.mp3","https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/716b.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/716-003","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/716/conversation-716-003","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}