Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 718-002
Date: Wednesday, May 3, 1972 at 10:06 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Kissinger, Henry A.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/718-002

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[13:44] I have not said anything to him about this.
[14:08] One thing I do think you need to do today, not only for a couple minutes, in order to have it done, is see Gray and Kleinke before we put out that announcement, I think.
[14:23] No, I think we'll do it at 3.
[14:26] Well, I told the leaders I didn't name the names, but I told them what we were planning.
[14:36] Oh, okay.
[14:39] Well, he doesn't have to do this.
[14:45] Well, no.
[14:48] He's got a hearing that he's presiding and then he has to go up to the Hill.
[14:52] The services, I don't think you ought to do it before the Rotunda thing either.
[14:55] Well, I don't know what the difference is happening.
[14:59] I don't think it makes a big difference.
[15:04] I thought Ron was going to do it at three.
[15:06] I think Ron ought to do it at two rather than .
[15:10] But it is .
[16:08] Well, how are you feeling today?
[16:09] I'm feeling great.
[16:10] No, actually, it looks like I had leaders who defended you this morning.
[16:17] In my remarks, I got one about your grief.
[16:20] Oh, God, yeah.
[16:22] You know, because the boys are all right.
[16:24] They definitely said it.
[16:27] Yeah, the main panic stuff comes out of the New York Times.
[16:30] They've got two real hatchet boys working on Craig Whitman and Shatner.
[16:36] They pulled out the fellow who was driving the good stuff and got spotted with it.
[16:40] Threw him out, didn't they?
[16:41] I don't know.
[16:42] He certainly isn't driving anymore.
[16:44] That's all right.
[16:45] We're not concerned about the database.
[16:49] We're concerned about the facts.
[16:52] Did you work out that situation on Saturday, about a Sunday?
[16:59] Yes, sir.
[17:00] I've kind of been down to the last half-minute.
[17:03] You'll be pleased to know that I've leaked out all our submarine discussions.
[17:11] You saw them?
[17:13] Yes.
[17:13] Oh, I saw them.
[17:14] Yes, sir.
[17:15] That's what I told you they were going to do.
[17:18] And the... You have gone Monday night.
[17:22] And on top of it, from the Rajas, finds the elitist version of Pithopil Krishna, which is equal numbers.
[17:33] That doesn't make any difference.
[17:37] It's all his crap around.
[17:38] But let me say, it's such cheap crap, though.
[17:40] I mean, why they did it, though, it's... Well, that's what... You see, they were... Rogers and Smith were playing for time, so they could do this.
[17:49] And what the Christ is the matter with them?
[17:51] I told you they would do it by...
[17:54] Anyway, that's one second.
[17:55] And you've got the front page of every paper that... We've got our story on that.
[17:59] It's your story.
[18:00] We can...
[18:04] Well, let me finish with Henry now.
[18:07] I assume you can get at this other one.
[18:09] I assume you have to, if you want to hold it for free.
[18:14] Let me find out.
[18:14] It's perfectly all right to hold it for free.
[18:16] One thing on this part I may want to address with you is, you had told Laird you wanted him to give a press conference today, too.
[18:25] He's sort of wobbly about it.
[18:26] I don't think it's going to...
[18:32] I think it's a bad idea, because he'll attack the South Vietnamese who are not fighting well enough, and he'll just be covering his own rear.
[18:38] Yes.
[18:39] Yeah.
[18:39] Yeah, I tell you.
[18:40] Well, then you tell Laird that I feel that because of the Hoover thing, we shouldn't have anything today.
[18:46] Yeah.
[18:46] And he's eager to do it.
[18:48] Who's talking to him?
[18:49] I'm talking to him.
[18:50] I can get it done.
[18:50] You talk to him.
[18:51] What do you do?
[18:52] Tell Laird that I feel that I told him.
[18:53] See, I spoke to Laird.
[18:54] I was the one that asked this.
[18:56] But earlier in the week, he did want to do it.
[18:59] You just say, well, he gave us some cooters and stuff and everything, and we ought to wait until after Thursday, and we'll take a new look at it then.
[19:04] No, he's eager to do it.
[19:09] Nobody's eager to do anything on this time.
[19:13] He'll do it, but what do you mean?
[19:15] Do you have to go to the Washington meeting?
[19:18] Well, I've got a covering it, so I should be there in about 20 minutes.
[19:22] They should hear from me.
[19:27] We have to give our chances today to reflect on our course of action and see what we do and where and how we're doing the right thing.
[19:45] I've handed the letter to Dobrina.
[19:46] I was icy.
[19:47] There was a phrase in there, we won't put any additional considerations before you.
[19:50] And then he said, we invite your consideration.
[19:52] He said, how can you invite our consideration if you won't give us any beauties?
[19:55] I said, Anatole, stop the debating points.
[19:57] You've heard from our point at great length in Moscow, and that's it.
[20:04] If you don't want to give us your views, fine, we'll ask you in the bathroom.
[20:08] I just thought for two minutes, I handed it in.
[20:11] He said, do you want to talk about it?
[20:12] I said, no, I don't want to discuss it with you.
[20:31] What is your evaluation this morning of the situation, particularly in regard to that?
[20:38] Was that my message was delivered, I trust, to the chief?
[20:41] Yes, your message was delivered then.
[20:45] Oh, yes.
[20:45] Punker said, I have conveyed the President's message to express his appreciation.
[20:49] Great pleasure in receiving it.
[20:50] The message came at an opportune moment.
[20:53] He was obviously encouraged by being made aware once again of the President's strong support.
[21:01] You know, I have a feeling here, intuition, a feeling, the South Vietnamese may not be that bad off, the North Vietnamese may be worse off.
[21:11] I think they're going to take some of the Amaral, take the Khantoum, anyway, but anyway, the North Vietnamese are taking a hell of a mountain here, they've got to.
[21:20] And what's your view this morning?
[21:24] My view is, you know, what I told you the night I came back from Moscow, the real question isn't how many towns they take and the view you expressed, but how many divisions they chew up and how much they lose.
[21:37] Both sides.
[21:38] That's right.
[21:39] I look back on it and it doesn't make any difference anymore.
[21:41] They've been just horrendous mistakes that we should never have.
[21:46] deployed around the country, and in fact, we should have pulled them back.
[21:49] I said pull back, give them territory, give them a line.
[21:56] Oh, no.
[21:56] We've seen it here.
[21:58] But this poor Abrams out there has been gambling like a wild poker player, and now he's panicking.
[22:06] We can't make him treat us that now.
[22:08] It's out of the question to have two deceited generals and to make it the graveyard for
[22:15] guys who bail in Vietnam.
[22:18] My evaluation is that there's a slightly better than 50-50 chance of holding it.
[22:23] Now that they've changed the commander in I-Corps, and they've put the Delta commander there, of course, that's totally different territory.
[22:36] We just don't know how well they'll do up there.
[22:38] They need to change land.
[22:40] They took land out, which was a good decision.
[22:44] At least Phu is a good commander.
[22:46] And Phu is a good commander.
[22:49] And he has a big shake-up in his command.
[22:51] What about the third division?
[22:52] That's finished.
[22:53] That's finished.
[22:54] We shouldn't kid ourselves.
[22:55] Now, obviously, there should be some of them who's getting back.
[23:00] Well, some of it is going back, and they may be able to use them as replacements.
[23:04] But I think it's an organized unit that's finished.
[23:06] If you want my evaluation.
[23:07] Well, the third division's half-minus, you know.
[23:11] Uh-huh.
[23:13] If the North Vietnamese, I think if the North Vietnamese run for away, they're going to get it.
[23:20] If the North Vietnamese do what they did in Khantoum and string up the area slowly, we'd have a chance.
[23:29] And then we can get some...
[23:37] some forces in there.
[23:38] Is it not true that the copyists in South Vietnam generally, it's certainly not running out of time?
[23:47] No, they're trying to panic out of the way, because obviously, I think the military situation is salvageable if everyone keeps his cool and if it's very tough out there.
[24:05] We've just got to see what we can do to bleed these guys.
[24:10] Let me present briefly.
[24:15] You'd rather go down or come back?
[24:18] Why don't you do that?
[24:19] I could.
[24:19] Why don't you do that?
[24:21] Why don't you come back?
[24:26] Because I've got to get to...
[24:31] The real thing that we have to do, the most immediate thing, is to determine if it's going to be shuttered.
[24:35] If it's going to be shuttered, we're going to follow through on what we're doing on the quarter.
[24:40] Right.
[24:40] And I, as undersigned, understood I was going to have a reading from more words in the paper.
[24:44] Right, on that high-five strike.
[24:45] Now, Laird wants to sit in on that.
[24:47] What's going to happen?
[24:48] In that case, you may want to scrap it, you know.
[24:52] I'm scrapping.
[24:52] What do you think?
[24:53] What do you think is good for me to have?
[24:58] I don't know, uh...
[25:01] You take a look at the goddamn thing.
[25:03] The thing with getting layered in is that he'll come in and make all of his protests with regard to it.
[25:09] Oh, yeah.
[25:09] Has he already told me last night?
[25:11] He's yesterday.
[25:12] Well, he says there aren't any targets up there, son of a bitch.
[25:15] There are never any targets for you on the attack.
[25:19] And he doesn't understand the political.
[25:22] We've got to do something, Mr. President.
[25:24] After all the huffing and puffing we've done, we've either got to hit or cancel the summit or vote, in my view.
[25:33] I think it's frankly more of a better use of my time.
[25:46] For you to look at the Mars briefing, you and I, and for you and I to talk about it.
[25:53] I couldn't agree more.
[25:54] You don't need it.
[25:55] And so what time can you be back here?
[25:57] 15 minutes.
[25:57] I do have some problems that I have to work on, so I've got to get that damn bullet you're in.
[26:05] I'll be back within 20 minutes.
[26:06] Take your time.
[26:07] Okay.
[26:08] Why don't we say quarter to quarter?
[26:10] And then we'll work on the whole thing.
[26:14] Right.
[26:14] And Dougie suggests this.
[26:16] But if you have any views on Porter other than what we discussed yesterday, it would be useful to... Well, that's what I want to discuss first.
[26:25] When you come back, I already want to do it now.
[26:27] Does he have to know right away?
[26:29] No, but Sullivan has to get some...
[26:31] I'm going to tell Sullivan.
[26:32] I'll let him know later this afternoon.
[26:38] It's really the question, it's really the question of how he does this.
[26:43] Who's back, we want the monkey on.
[26:46] And, you see what I mean?
[26:50] Yeah.
[26:51] And why don't you try to get some of those people to look for him.
[26:57] How would that work?
[27:00] No, no.
[27:00] They have views, I saw.
[27:02] Well...
[27:03] They don't mention it.
[27:04] I'll be as brief on the vote.
[27:06] Oh, I understand that.
[27:08] I understand that.
[27:09] I'm just trying to say, don't tell Sullivan.
[27:11] Tell him the president is considering a very hard line.
[27:16] And what do you all think?
[27:18] Well, they'll say it depends on the private talk.
[27:21] I'll check with Sullivan.
[27:22] You're not going to tell them the private talk, sir?
[27:25] No.
[27:25] No.
[27:26] Leave that open.
[28:26] Yeah, the reason we made that, of course, is the one, you know, that stopped before us.