Conversation 719-004

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Uh, I think you've got it right, Larry Harder or somebody.

Your parents are, their responsibility to watch the militia work, honestly.

Did I, uh, have a speaking hunch that that talk about looking at the burning of the American building in the South Bay of the Needs was incorrect?

It was.

He called outside.

I had him last night at 10.30.

He got to work.

He tried to get

I agree with the person, but I wouldn't give it up.

You wouldn't?

Why?

On a eulogy, it's not a political speech, it's not a state speech, it's a personal statement.

I'd rather think that if you let us out, I'd just give it up.

I don't think it makes any difference to me, it's a big deal.

I've made a couple of changes, I'm sure this has gotten on.

I wouldn't give it to him, right?

I can't log it, but he spoke to the FBI yesterday.

I wasn't lying.

You know, the judge is only minor, you know, science type of thing.

The main point got across very well.

Taking action, he wasn't even eager to have it.

It was fine.

He didn't have to pick the grass.

It just don't look true.

Oh, don't worry about the sign.

No, I said that it's everything about the HBs, hires, and senators, and the press, pressing hell on opportunity to put the FBI through the wringer.

But, hey, there is, of course, some that there's also more positive stuff.

You mentioned they've all been out.

And you've just got to follow up on it every goddamn hour and hour.

Either you or put somebody else on it, because that's the time to do it.

I mean, because, hey, it was, you know, he's busy as hell.

And nobody, I mean, he was

and they're doing it, but it doesn't change anything.

The only way you change it is if, hey, where I am, sometimes wrong, call over there, or all of them here.

Okay, that is the thing.

I mean, it just, there's a lot of little, well, there's always going to be the little ones, but I'll just do the general saying.

I'm saying that I just can't understand that tanks aren't supposed to be able to survive this kind of air attack.

I want you to go over to see Conway.

Give him a cold turkey.

Get his cold turkey.

The only other possibility.

The only other possibility is he's been in the NSC.

I don't know if it's true, but he did.

See, I have no confidence in either Robert or Larry or something else.

I'm not going to bother with that.

Everybody else around has an independent mind.

I was going to ask you if we have a reasonable comment, because I think his kind of judgment is what you're after.

Now you and mainly Henry should make his decision on that, which Connolly would be for without

You know he's hard with it

You want to do this with communes before you get the Russian reply.

Is that such a, that's a, could be, it may not be any factor at all.

It could be a damn important factor.

Might be better to have before we raise the lid.

Call this morning, because he expected to call last night.

I didn't get you.

And in the afternoon, I was supposed to work on it.

And thought it a big matter that you and Henry might go over and see him before he sees you.

Now, I don't want to see him today.

I've got to see him.

Very, very important.

The only thing about seeing today is to have you think about it.

That may be a good idea.

Then we add it.

You know, you think about it over and over again.

Right.

I think we should see that.

I just feel that, you know, this economy is not good.

Well, Henry was feeling that.

He spoke to a fellow couple of last night, and he's standing in ovations in answer to his questions.

You know, he makes a really horrid tone.

He can stir it up.

It's a trompe-l'oeil here.

The dead speak.

Gordon Gray wanted to come over here.

It may, frankly, be more worthwhile than some of the other things he does.

While you're at it, make sure I'm going up

And the fact that I'm amazed really that we're getting, that we're not getting worse.

Right.

Press reaction that we're getting.

And it's, plus the guy over this week, you know, I'm sorry, the last weekend, the shit has to be, I mean, it's, hit the soft end of me.

Yeah.

It's a problem.

But they're asking us, well, this move of the generals made a big story today, and it shows our fighting sense.

That's a negative story, but it's not really.

It's a positive story because it shows they aren't bogey on these.

He's trying to fight with the guy who blew something, so he's pulling them out and putting a better man in.

God, I wish I could get Abrams to help him.

He was pushed through.

But we ought to do it.

Let me tell you about that.

every argument against the blockade disappears.

And we'll say we're going to blockade, we're going to keep the blockade on.

And I don't know if Scott knows that.

Of course, you have to go to finance some airstrikes.

See, the blockade is like part of the main thing in one way, in airstrikes.

You don't kill the system.

You've got to do some talking to handle a blockade.

You've got to keep runners out and so forth.

You blockade and then you have to take out the railroads and the highways to keep them constantly upgraded.

And the DOL, would you knock that out?

Well, if you knock that out, of course, they don't have any storage.

That's right.

See, you have a blockade.

You need to start with the helos.

You strike the helo with a bomb and then blockade them.

And let them set it.

And then say we will let it blockade, and we get our field up into a ceasefire.

And then we'll withdraw all tournaments and stop them.

That's not a bad move, blockade.

And then, of course, the cry babies will all start screaming here, like an iPhone showdown.

But the Russians, because what do you do if they come through, or if they take the blood?

We have to examine it in terms of whether it will work.

You've got a very, very diverse opinion here.

The Navy's always been for it.

Well, anyway, that's one way to do it.

Yeah.

Okay, you want to cancel the penalty this afternoon?

Well, I can cancel it that time.

So we'll go ahead and see him today.

And you need Henry and Trish, so we'll have to see them before the party happens.

We wanted to get it voted this week.

But the Democrats are holding off until Mansfield gets back.

So it'll be next Tuesday and Wednesday.

And our guys think we'll still beat Case Church.

But we probably will lose the third Mansfield deal, which is to be out in Baltimore.

All Americans out in Baltimore.

If it doesn't happen, the mic gets back and the bird won't offer it next year.

they're not asking you and they are mobilizing and sure they've got trying to state defense

But I've also got a father who I think maybe more

It's been shameful as hell.

Unbelievable.

I was going to indicate independently yesterday, without getting into what we've been talking about at all, McCrary and Scali and Moore and Chaffin and me going over just some general ideas and stuff.

McCrary came up with the idea on a purely apparent site that it might be a very good move to

drop Mrs. Nixon from the Russia trip, and make the point that this is a various line, is to make it sure Sleeves was in the wrong town, and that it's going to be a rerun of China, that you better let her ride on the China glory, not take her to Russia.

Those are on the other side.

And it's...

You know, it was just a thought that I came up with as they are.

He argued that she would pull out and she'd say, it looks to me like this ought to be solid business, and I think, you know, I don't want the Russians worrying about me and running me around sizing and all that.

He says, McBurry's argument is that Mrs. Nixon pulling out was short of sacrificing something that would have been important to her career.

and I'll make some money to it.

Just keep fighting.

They've come up with kind of a good idea that they've insisted on, which is a peace corps, not the peace corps, but a peace corps that would consist of volunteers in the armed forces.

to be stationed down there, not as armed forces, but as civilian clothes from Kevin, Patrick, and just July 1.

All the month of July, I'm going to stand on both conventions, the demonstrators and all that, rather than bring National Guard troops and policemen with tin helmets and all that.

I'm going to give these, this Peace Corps, what do they

They volunteer and begin a special training for a couple weeks ahead of time, ride training and all that stuff.

Get them to work with the kids and keep the things centered down.

I don't know if you want it centered down.

In fact, it seems to me that we take the burden of, I'd rather leave it.

Let the Democratic mayor and the Democratic governor.

We don't need to give them any trouble, any help on this, is that clear?

Particularly not to the Democratic convention.

Let it blow first, and we'll know for hours.

Let the goddamn governor.

Good God, he probably went out of this one now.

He's going to, well, this is my plan, as you said, was, isn't this our group here?

No, no, no, this is from Miami.

That's all.

And also, they think you've got some public support.

You still get your phone around?

Yes, I know I was on the phone with Tom, but I mean, what can I do to make it work?

But you could see Bob's in there on his wagon and not until after the funeral.

9.30, he gets to leave at 10.30.

It's probably better to go after the funeral anyway.

Yeah, he's on the phone now, right here.

What time does that fit?

I'm talking about 12.

Let's see.

You'll be here, right?

11.45.

All right, follow up.

Is that okay?

We'll come over there as soon as we get back.

I told Bob about it.

We were just talking about the very same thing.

He said there would probably be a discussion.

I want to be sure.

You know, how about Michelin?

I can wait for tomorrow.

I'm just not bothered.

You know, he's the only other one whose judgment I would have any interest in.

Can you can you meet with Mitchell?

And I said, I'm going to present your case, which as I told you, we didn't believe him, as strongly as he indicates, but he feels it has to be presented.

It must be presented.

It's as strong as you can.

And I said, I'm going to present the other case as strongly as he can.

And then I want Conley to take on it today.

I was about to say, I'm quite a fool to hit the Russian reply.

I should know Conley's first judgment is never very good.

It's too impulsive.

You know how he is.

I should let him sleep one of a day.

One of a day.

Right on.

I think it's the right way to proceed.

For a while, but what a good reception you had last night.

By God, you know, one thing about us...

We go down, we go down with the old guns blazing, aren't we?

And I'm not sure we're going to go down.

I think something out there is going on.

We think, God damn it, you know, you're at the end of that and also maybe, I don't mean yours, but whoever said that.

But, you know, you said that's what the papers showed.

I mean, you were relating with others about it.

people in those divisions up here, they would be consolidated in the division, and they would be knocking off Ant-Loc.

Hell, listen, what is more important than that?

Ant-Loc is essentially more important than, than, than, than, than Foo, Foo Bee, or whatever the crack of it is.

Contum.

What do you mean by Contum?

I mean...

The handlocked, you see there, they don't have enough artillery.

I mean, they couldn't get that much artillery and tanks out there.

But of course, these goddamn South Vietnamese had still not opened their own to handlock.

Oh, I asked King today about it.

He said they were always, always...

I don't believe that.

I mean, I don't... No, he didn't say it in any confident way.

He said, I don't know, it's like he was pissed off or something.

They're moving.

In fact, they're pulling the airport brigade out of Antlat.

That's not a bad idea.

And pulling another airport brigade out of Khantoum and sending them up to Hue.

That is a good idea.

In other words, give up Khantoum.

Yeah, but Khantoum is lost anyhow.

So that, I think, is a good idea.

Well, can we get out?

That's in circle.

But that's a lousy division up there.

We've just got to recall that it was maldeployment.

If they had put those two divisions up there and put them back to MK, then they wouldn't have had to have the airport up there.

Then they could have had the airport.

The thing is, I told Al today that now we've got the Air Force thinking in goddamnit terms, which really

It's the best analogy, but it's a mistake maybe.

But nevertheless, Khang Tu and all the rest of Khang Tri are nothing compared to Hue.

Hue is like Verdun, and it must be held in the last few weeks, and therefore put everything in there and have it out in Hue.

But Hue could be held.

Yes, if they get that other division up there, I think they can hold it.

I don't think they can hold it now.

If they have the Airborne up there and the 1st Division up there.

I also feel that they get around the clock one out there.

They're beginning to do that now.

They're now using flares and they're flaming a lot of trucks, seeing that.

I just think the Air Force lies.

I do too, but they, you know, how did it happen?

It just has, it cannot be that this Air Force never hits anything.

And give them 20 trucks a day, that's 100 trucks a day.

You mean 11 World War II, however, the Strategic Air Force?

Well, these folks, he said, are pretty good at close-ground support.

If you give us bothers or a shed, why don't we have airplanes that are flying 100 feet from the ground?

Like the Germans.

Remember the Germans?

They just knocked the shit out of them.

And what do we have?

Helicopters for that purpose, not for our pride's sakes.

The helicopter wasn't made for that purpose, Henry.

We've got helicopters.

Everything in this respect we're doing is just...

I mean, our Air Force, when this is over, has to be redesigned.

And the Army?

And the Army.

And the Navy?

The Navy is closest to being right.

All right.

The Navy is...

I've been right.

I have a memorandum.

It's a fixed missile.

Do you remember what it did?

Yeah.

Do you remember the three destroyers?

Oh, yeah.

One of the little land posts.

Yeah.

I think they're going to get our carriers down there.

Well, not down there, but I mean in the war with the Soviets.

They wouldn't dare to sink one of our carriers down there.

They know we'd go crazy.

I think, Mr. President, what we ought to consider

uh it is uh it's just they have put it to us but it's just no good way of losing it your first instinct was right i i asked myself what maybe i should have bothered to leave that total throat you to the world but wouldn't have done it any good because these guys i told you you're an associate

The only backup position that you could take with the Soviet would be

And I don't think it was in all their words to say that we have to have a, that we cannot have an anti-fancy between now and the end of the summer.

If they'll stop their fancy, we'll stop them from coming.

Now, that's probably the only question for them.

I mean, I'm just thinking that after the Soviet, there's an argument that means for us, it gives us what we would need, the ideal vision that right after the summit, we'd blast the shit out of them.

And, of course, the weather works that.

Yeah, that is region one.

But, uh...

I don't care where, but I mean, some of that we don't have to consider any other region.

We can just throw it all in region one.

No, that's a possibility.

You see what I'm saying?

You see, I look back at what I think Laird is setting us up for in terms of the recrimination.

Mr. President, we have a good record on that because all he recommended was that we bomb the missile sites.

The missile sites are a waste of effort.

That was the basis of our rejecting it.

Not before China, he didn't recommend anything after China.

He recommended that we hit the missile sites.

The missile sites don't affect the operations in the south.

We wanted to hit the supply dumps.

Yeah.

I'm just telling you what I think he said, too.

Oh, yeah.

We have him on record, but that isn't what he recommended.

On the other side, they don't...

Looking back on our own record, I think they did.

I mean, much is wrote on China that perhaps that was a mistake.

Well, no, Mr. President, before China, they weren't building up in that area.

They were building up in the B-3 front, and we made a massive strike in there.

Yeah, I think our telegrams went off.

Go ahead.

I think our television was totally wrong, but I don't think they ever intended to attack in February.

I don't think they ever intended to attack on the B3 front first.

I think they deliberately misled us.

After China, the big build-up in the Panhandle started in March, for those four weeks.

Now, it's easy now in that respect to say we should have found it.

The most we were ever able to do was three days.

We were never able to do more than three days at a time.

Did that make any sense?

No, because you know very well when we did five days in December... Oh, the North!

We're talking about the North.

Three days wouldn't have made any difference.

We've been bombing them for two weeks and we haven't stopped their supply chain.

I suppose that's the only other thing we can say.

We should have done it sooner.

The Ubers did not get in on the last weekend.

That didn't affect the metal.

It was no battle with the turrets.

All it did was weaken your negotiating hand.

No.

I think last week, first of all, Mr. President, they didn't use us.

I was in favor of killing them last weekend.

Oh, you know, a migration.

I was strongly in favor.

Moorer came to us and pleaded not to do it because they needed the assets in the battle for country.

The great danger was... You've got more...

The great danger was that if you ordered them to attack Hanoi and Haiphong last weekend, that you were then going to put yourself in the position of...

Speaking of this case, I think I will reverse my thought about these Americans on the ground.

But do you think we could use some of our helicopter gunships and so forth and so on, in other words,

I think Mr. President, it would have been a good thing to hit them.

It wouldn't have affected the negotiation on Tuesday.

They are not going to negotiate until the defendant has run its course.

It doesn't make any difference because they've got too much riding on it.

They've got their whole army in a foreign country.

And there's just too much riding on it for them.

Have we got a property report yet on them?

Do you agree with him or not?

I just can't tell.

I honestly can't tell.

I think he may probably have gotten a bad rap, but these goddamn newsmen are there.

But it's exactly like Ted in his respect, Mr. President.

If we, if here we are on May 4th or 5th or whatever today, it's June 15th.

If we can make them lose two or three divisions out of the way, they've lost the war.

That basically has to change.

They just won't be able to fight anymore again for two years.

Would you mind getting Thompson out there?

Yeah.

On the spot.

But we need to cool this.

We should actually experiment to get out of here.

Well, I'm not sure we shouldn't send him out again.

I guess, frankly, we're not satisfied with the reporting.

We can't make decisions based on what the goddamn haters call us and stuff.

But we can't get him out fast enough.

Well, let's set an effective summit decision anyway.

Do you think it's well worth it to be out there?

No.

We'll see.

Come to?

Come to.

Weekend, of course.

When will it come?

Tomorrow, next day.

It hasn't been attacked yet.

I think within 48 hours of whenever it's attacked.

I would guess by the weekend.

But then, that will be the 7th.

Then it will take them two or three weeks to get down to Flagstaff.

Or maybe they'll catch Flagstaff, too.

But by then, it's the end of the season.

Yeah.

Well, did we ever send that message out?

I said, give up the territory.

You've never heard of that.

You sent a message to that asshole.

That was the second day.

You said, give up your country.

I didn't mention this at all.

No, no, but you said it.

And you said it to Moro.

You didn't say it to me.

Moro was sitting here when you told me.

Give up territory.

And, uh...

I think we should do it, probably.

I'm reaching the point that I may be going too far, of even thinking of putting some Marines ashore in Vinn.

I think the major problem now is the Vindicata and Ward.

But that may be going too far.

Well, that would shake them completely at the end of all of this, say, foreign troops.

But we ought to look whether we can put some salary in the media.

Well, that I can do for a minute.

I don't mind furnishing the... We have the landing craft, for instance, used in South Vietnam.

Even if they could go up there for 12 hours and just stay there.

Right.

Just stay there as long as you can.

It's got to be a plan.

Well, they should walk out and say, we'll come back.

Oh, yes.

Provided he does it in a way that they simply

I agree with you.

Now, Porter does have the tendency to put things in a little bit of extreme ways.

Yeah, I know.

Okay.

I have another point.

I think you should get permission

see what they could use.

I have an idea that might shape the Russians pretty good, that we could get some more air force or something into there.

I don't know, I don't understand.

I'm just thinking of... Well, let's take it easy on that, because the Israelis are pretty wild, and if they get it, I mean, they may be like the noise, but we're concerned we may not be able to hold them.

But... No, but we should do it after the...

Things get a little worse.

The way to play their actions is, if we break the summit, is to keep holding on to a lot of the things they want in front of them as a partnership.

In bilateral relations, it would be in our interest to avoid this, to keep them from going ape, and only after they've gone ape should we play this race.

I mean, it's not in our interest to have the Russians go away against us.

I think if we cancel the summit, it should be in a very gentle way.

I mean, a very gentlemanly way that says all of it is still open.

We'll meet when we cannot meet while Russian tanks and Russian guns are shooting at Americans.

I mean, let's make quite a direct letter, a message from me to your line saying that the Russians have been, have not, say not only in this but in other areas, have proved to be not trustworthy, see that we nicely live in Vietnam, and that what we do know in Vietnam is not directly against them, but against the Russians.

We can make small, good points with that.

Mr. President, we have come back from every crisis stronger and have become stronger.

Well, we have to be quite, quite aware of that.

There's one difference in the other crisis.

There was always been the service majority before us.

This time, they can't spend the

ever been made in the history of this office, and the people are going to be terribly, terribly put down because of it.

So let's face that.

We have to realize, other than Kansan, that people are going to be disappointed.

A few hogs will get a lot of wires favored, and that will be hog wire, which is not a majority.

And in the meantime, it will unleash our political enemies to hell.

They will pass, probably, resolutions that would just knock the hell out of us, make fun of the cutoffs and everything else.

We've got to figure that will happen.

We've got to figure, I guess what I mean,

Captain, perhaps you may not remember.

I remember.

The crew shot.

Very ill, everybody called Kennedy.

Floated for the last two weeks, but he helped them all the way.

Sorry.

The Republicans will do the same on me.

Well, they may or may not.

It depends.

Well, they will for the reason that we will take a bad, bad ball, we call it, to pick your eyes.

We're going to get squeals and this and that and the other thing.

And as they see the possibility of a Democrat winning, they'll say, now we wish this time to get right down to two.

I mean, I'm just looking at the worst of both worlds.

That's one of the things they might do.

And let's not have any illusions about that.

You see, you and I, we talk about those things that I'm going to talk about with Dr. Guter today, patriotism, loyalty, principle, and the rest.

And we say we hope to God that there's enough of that in the country.

Well, there certainly is enough to support the bombing in the north in order to involve a disaster.

Whether there is enough to support

See, it's the whole thing.

Yeah, but I'm not sure.

The whole China thing was important from this one standpoint on.

The American people are suckers getting to know you, all that bullshit.

There are people and people.

Yeah, but for precisely that reason, to go there under these circumstances and to cater to that group is just...

It isn't that group.

But therefore, to bring it off, you would have to do enough of what they want there to have a plausible case.

That you brought these, which means you'd have to give credits, you'd have to sign the joint statement of principle, to which I've already agreed, to moralize something subject to corrections.

by some, and even the Russians.

And we agree we're going to put this kind of a venture into Vietnam.

Only when we are strong, not in the present context.

If we go all the way to Vietnam, sure.

I think we will pay.

Why don't you take your speech?

My speech?

Oh, the speech for you.

Tomorrow.

No, not by this afternoon.

By noon, hopefully.

Don't say that, because you and I are going to meet at 3 o'clock, so give them until this evening at 7 o'clock.

Okay.

He said, you know, he liked the possibility to do this.

No, I didn't get all the rations, so they'll, uh, their only, I believe, the minimum condition for a son, basically, is that, uh, as well as for the child.

There's, there must not be an offensive over Moscow for the, for ten days before, and during the period after that, the families.

The public themselves,

Yeah.

But that's okay.

America's pride has always been its people, a people of good men left by the millions, of great men left by the remarkable ones, and once in a long while, of giants, who stand ahead in the shoulders of their country, setting a high and noble standard for us all.