Conversation 720-004

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to get him aboard.

You can spare him.

I just want you to know that that's my personal rule.

But as you know, it's your decision, and I just want you to know that.

Right.

That's pretty great.

Right.

Good.

I had a very good talk yesterday with a friend of yours, the vice president of Teamsters up there in New York.

They call him Joe T. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He is quite a fellow.

He had, he had, the, this was down for the pay board.

He brought in, brought him in and a couple others and I talked to him.

But he's a strong, strong man.

He was talking about an interesting thing.

He'd apparently been to St. Patrick's on the day that, apparently some of the nuns had been demonstrating and had rolled something down the aisle.

Boy, he was really, really sure that if his wife hadn't been there, he'd have gone out there and made us get out.

Yeah.

Well, we may have to take some stronger action here in the near future, and we do.

I hope you support it.

But the main purpose being, the main purpose being, we've got to get our POWs out and turn everything around.

Because what is happening, I can tell you, is that there is this obvious nature of fighting.

And all, they're all sort of tanks as bravely as men, but the Soviet Union has given the North Vietnamese huge tanks, big guns.

They're, you know, they're supporting, at the day, 11, 11 new weapons systems that we've never seen before.

Well, that sort of thing is pretty, pretty rough, you know, when they're coming in.

And so, uh, but, uh, their own land, our Air Force and Navy are just doing a wonderful job.

That's all we've got in there, you know, but they are, without that, the South Vietnamese would be gone.

But...

Yeah.

Well, I think we can deal with that.

That's right.

Well, same thing.

I always say that everything is spiritual.

We've got the best guys on our side.

Right.

Good to talk to you.

At the end of the letter, Henry is back.

I'll check whether he's free.

Yeah, I want to see him this morning.

Well, Tricia was great.

Barbara Walters, Pat said it, Tricia, that, you know, Barbara Walters, I thought, was really mean.

She always is.

But in particular, the fact that he looked pretty, smiled.

Well, she talked to her about the hecklers on the war, about, this is how tough the questions were, about what the McGovern and these guys are appealing to the people who are anti-establishment.

And there's some Bibleology that says anti-establishment really means anti-administration.

She doesn't say that means anti-those people and everybody, but Patricia handled all of these things very well, very calmly.

She looked absolutely gorgeous.

She just looked so pretty.

They asked for such a thing that they all went and said, what do you think the people's opinion or the world's opinion is of you?

Patricia, and she says, well, I don't know, she said, there's a lot of, I've heard a lot of things, I wouldn't call this or that, but she said, you know, when you're only, when you weigh 95 and you're 5'3", they have long blonde hair.

You have, people just take that as an impression.

But she, then she went on, she said, but I have opinions.

I like to know what's going on.

I like to, issues.

Oh, she was just great.

And she was, I thought she was very good, very good.

Yeah, it's hard for her.

She's going to be hard for all of them to go through that.

She's very tough.

She's strong.

She doesn't want to get under your skin.

She looks at women and... She never takes anything from you.

She, uh, she said you were doing what you thought... She doesn't, she doesn't, no matter what she asks, she looked right at her and didn't show any reaction and, and, uh...

said you were doing what you thought was right on everything, and oh, I know, you know, that anti-establishment thing.

She said, well, you were driving them.

You were trying to get Revenue Sheriff to get the government back to the people, and then she certainly helped the Congress to that.

I mean, she showed knowledge all the way through.

She was very, very good.

Julie was in here this morning sometime, probably 11.30 or so in the afternoon.

One thing that you might...

Okay, I'm gonna ask you guys.

That's raising that subject to the use of planes and so forth.

Again, I know that it will be raised, raised by things that we're going to handle about once a day as far as I'm concerned.

You know, when we say, well, the president's going, the president, that's what's next.

He goes, it's a political case.

I'm not going.

Of course, we pay for it.

But my guy, when Julie goes out to California, goes to Texas to speak at a pharmaceutical convention, what in the hell is that for the profit of a public event?

We have it all paid for, that's the point, if there's any problem.

Have you heard some bitches about it?

I haven't even heard what's happened, but I don't know what the problem is.

The Democrats will start calling because these kids are so good, you see, and Pat and Barbara.

And I think if they do, it's the easiest thing.

But at the moment, I don't know.

Could I ask you one question?

I read a letter to our ambassador in the Dominican Republic saying that Don Jackson is retiring.

It's an old letter from his old friend here.

I would appreciate any of the receipts.

I've got written letters.

I've got an old time personal friend from California for 25 years who remembers Don Jackson as retired.

I agree to all of these things.

That's a build-up to the summit, and I didn't think we'd be in this sort of situation.

That's right.

We're in our situation now.

In fact, I've got to go up tonight again to give a speech to the Asia Society about your giant trip.

But that's easy to tell.

But the thing that I find interesting is

We had, I'll get you the list, it really had the absolutely tough people of New York there.

That was something done, actually it was, I thought I was doing it for the Russian center at Columbia, but it turned out it was done by them in cooperation with Time Live, which I didn't understand.

But it's all these tough people.

And somebody heckled me about Vietnam, and I again made an impassioned speech about dignity.

I said,

I don't want to be heckled.

This president is saving the dignity and honor of America.

Hadley Donovan was there.

What happened when you said that?

They got up and applauded.

They didn't just applaud and answer the question.

It's rare enough that you get applauded when you answer the question.

But the people jumped up and gave you a standing ovation.

You've got to say it in just those terms.

Yeah, that's great.

I just talked to Peter Brown at his opening trade, asking him to loan us a manhunt.

He said, well, for four years, I just wish we could get the papers to print just a little more of why we're there and what's all involved, you know.

I'll tell you, we'd be dead if it weren't for television.

I mean, these television speeches that I've made about it, which were three months ago, I really doubt them, too.

That's why Johnson failed, because he didn't go on and explain it any more.

These were the heads of...

most of the big corporations.

And I said, what is it that we want?

What will you people say if your president puts a communist government into power in a country where 40,000 Americans have died?

Can you look yourself in the face after that?

And to my amazement, a time writer got up and said, I want

to support it, so Donovan told him to sit down, and he got up again and said, I want to support what he said, and if the trench had held on at the end of the end for another month, then... Good.

Yeah, great.

So, uh... That's good.

Rose, as I told you, I want you to go to New York.

No, I already told them I'm not going, so...

But this is the last piece I'm committed to making.

Thank you.

And I would suggest that you, uh, you might as well go over the weekend and go up to Camp David.

I don't know what I'll be doing when I'm staying in London.

Don't you think you should go?

Why don't you go for a couple of days?

I'll, I'll, I'll stay, I'll just stay here until you want me something.

I told him yesterday I wouldn't come this weekend.

I'll go to see him another time.

But there isn't anything I have for you.

There isn't?

Okay, fine.

No, then I think maybe I'll have you up today, just in case, every night.

I was going to ask you to do something today that is very important.

I want you to be rather than cool, particularly outgoing.

Come here.

I want you to play them like they play us.

I'd be very curious.

I'd act as if everything was going ahead on schedule.

I would act very, very nice.

You could say how gracious we are, how pleased Mr. Nixon is with the graciousness of Mr. Green and all that.

Because now that the die is cast, we're going to play this in the most vicious way that we can with those bastards.

Let me give you...

But first of all, I'm going ahead on all the planning.

I don't think that might be the order for tomorrow.

That's right.

I heard it.

But I could be excused from the FIAT meeting.

And one of my staff members, I think if they could, I could work with Moro this morning to make sure that the plan is right.

Yes.

I have to listen to them, I think.

That's a scary thing and I would not tip our hand at all now to anybody that we are banning.

Somebody in the White House is talking too much.

Because Robert was on this morning and said we were considering a blockade, you're getting mad and you're... You know, it could be good speculation that he said he was taught from the White House.

But I don't think... Christ's sake, this is... Well, it's certainly nobody who knows.

It's not that strong.

It may be that...

I don't talk to anybody.

Bob wouldn't talk.

No, it could easily be.

No, Bob would never do it.

It could be Scali.

That's Scali.

Who the Christ would have told Scali?

Nobody.

None of that is speculated.

It is based on information.

No one could know.

But what I'm going to say...

I couldn't agree more.

I told Bob, and I know this is the one...

People were quite upset or speculating about it.

rather than being angry and even considering a blockade.

Now, you have got to really sit on everybody and, as I said, I want you to handle it totally the other way.

Now, this includes Erwin, it includes Moore, it includes Colston, it includes Scali.

You know what I mean?

We just cannot have these leaps.

You know, I don't know.

They aren't in action.

I mean, it is, it goes, you might as well,

Relax and enjoy it, because there's nothing we can do about it.

It isn't rather this morning.

It's everybody.

And the Wall Street Journal has a thing today.

They're about 1 o'clock a.m.

Rather said, and he didn't say White House staff, he simply said, another bold U.S. military move seems underway.

Wider targeting of North Vietnam sites, blockade of Haiphong, and though less likely, an amphibious landing in North Vietnam, a barb in the U.S. air-sea power, guiding a player, or these possibilities show how determined Nixon is to act.

You still have the State League.

Keatley has another article saying that you are willing to settle for it.

Keatley says the U.S. is ready to settle for less.

On the terms far less they will be U.S. than once thought of as a side-line alliance of the world.

That's that constant running, stately.

Yeah, but then he goes on and says, if North Vietnam doesn't go along, the nation's prepared to give them a lot more war with no end in sight.

Okay, okay, well.

And then he says, as U.S. defies peace, it means a ceasefire and U.S. withdrawal with some settlements of honor and return of D.O.W.s.

And he went off on that.

And that's what the state has been putting in.

That's the state line.

Well, the state has done it.

Who is that, Solomon?

I frankly think that after Roger has read that cable on ceasefire.

What cable?

That we sent?

No, that where President mentioned we should have a ceasefire.

He's put the whole state machinery to work to push that.

Because he figures if it comes out... What price did he give the cable for?

Well, it was a mistake in judgment of faith.

He wanted it.

But he was in a hell of a spot, because I just called him up and said, I'm on the way down.

And so he just cut out in some parts, and he had left that one in by mistake.

See, their defense had a briefing yesterday, too, where they did a thing on Soviet arms.

Oh, that was right.

Yeah, but see, all of this is giving...

giving rise to speculation, plus your remarks in Texas, which they keep going back and saying.

that something more is going to come up.

And the product and everything, and a number of them have, several of them have mentioned blockade of high volume.

Others, they have removed volume and are handling it on high volume.

And then they end up .

It is a problem.

I just want to be sure that we don't tell anybody around here.

That's just not one living, breathing soul.

Mark, that all says you're preparing another major escalation with airstrikes.

Mark and Charles, Mark and Cal.

Well, who the hell's talking to him?

They're just making it up.

Sure they are.

They're picking it up out of the indicators that they're getting.

They're not citing any sources.

When they have sources, they use them to back up what they're saying.

I thought I heard Robert say that White House sources said something.

Maybe so.

He didn't last night.

This morning, he said.

In the morning show, I think he did say that.

Okay, good.

Thank you.

Anyway, that's just to be sure.

I want you to get the quiet side and sit there.

No, I didn't say anything about Vietnam, period.

I didn't.

There's a question that came up.

Somebody asked whether there was another line.

Well, I guess that was it.

We're taking it.

Good.

We're all settled.

Good.

Absolutely not.

Okay, well, I figured, I just figured, I just know what it is.

It's sometimes well-intentioned people who talk about things and all this.

Nobody knows what the plan is.

On what they're planning to do, I'm meeting with Mora and his planning group shortly after 10.

And we're going to get, you don't have to bother with it unless you want to see it.

I'll have to shoot you that number there to take notes so that we know what, by our game plan, of what has to be done when.

We have to bring State in on Sunday, starting Sunday morning as soon as we call Rogers back.

I think we have to get

Alexander, I feel I must put before you this consideration, Mr. President.

We must do something drastic.

There's no question about it.

The advantage of a blockade is that it commits us irrevocably.

And after that, it drops, and there's no turning back.

It's a great advantage.

And the other side must then do something.

The disadvantage is that it confronts the Soviets most directly.

That's the thing I said to you this morning.

They can hardly step back from that.

They may, but... Now, my Soviet expert thinks it is more likely that they step back from a blockade than from a bombing, but...

The disadvantage of bombing is that you put it so effectively yesterday and they expect it.

And they thought it's already been discounted.

The disadvantage of bombing is that it will trigger every goddamn peace group in this country.

It's all a blockade.

And...

Neither does that.

It's the line of major escalation that they're all talking about.

And either a blockade or a bombing would have triggered a feature.

So we have no doubts about that.

But it's hard to turn off a blockade.

That's right.

I mean, for you to turn off, you can always stop bombing for a day or two or a week or two weeks.

And therefore...

So then it would be an infection.

The bomb...

We cannot have the stop-and-start thing again, even around and around and around.

I understand the problems.

There's that problem in France a lot, whether it's the Soviet Union, the Indians, the Chinese.

Those are no problem, but the Chinese are a problem, too.

But in a way, of course, it's also a question of degree, a prolonged farming of Hanoi and Haifa.

They have to react.

We'll do the same thing.

We'll send the question.

The other thing is the bombing has been done before.

It's the same old routine.

In fact, the bombing, bombing, bombing, bombing, stop the bombing, stop the bombing.

So they're going to say, lift the blockade, lift the blockade.

On that point, this is a strong case.

The blockade is not as good a target as the bombing in terms of the riots.

Well, of course, there's got to be bombing, too, with the blockade.

Oh, I understand.

People are going to look at the blockade.

The blockade is going to be so overwhelming in terms of its economic relations.

I understand.

The main point is, when you talk about raising these points, which you've got to raise, there are no other choices, no.

The choice is sure.

There's a choice of a two-day talk and then go back and say, I hope to Christ that they will not negotiate about something.

And it isn't going to happen.

Exactly.

Do you have another evaluation or situation?

What is it this morning?

Well, it's quiet again.

Well, then they go to talk again.

That's what always happens when it's quiet.

Oh, yeah.

Well, what it proves is two things.

One is they're weaker than we think.

I mean, take Khantou.

It shouldn't have taken them two weeks to go from Dakto to Khantou.

If they had really a lot of stuff, they would have just rolled into it.

But they're sort of inching up to it again.

They're taking a lot of casualties.

On the other hand, they're doing it methodically, and they'll soon be attacked again.

And it's a tragedy, of course, they wouldn't do it.

If we had one American division to go into the Panhandles, they'd be finished.

We got an American regiment to land, for Christ's sakes, and then finish this damn thing.

It's frightening to death.

You know, they go off two divisions off the attack in the South Vietnamese and mine each forward even.

Oh, I know.

You know, I know.

But...

I don't know about the... Henry, the argument's me.

We've been around this track about 18 times, but the...

I must say, it's very compelling to me when you say if we go the bombing route, we're going the same way expected.

And frankly, it's almost certain it's going to work.

The blockade may not work either.

But the blockade has got to work.

It may not work fast enough.

I mean, there's no way the blockade cannot work.

It's already, even that one bombing of Haifang, incidentally, they've got such a contraction in the port now that there's one Polish trader that has to wait a month in Hainan to be able to get into the port.

I, in fact, have to say, Mr. President, you keep talking about your instincts.

I think your instinct was right.

We should have hit soon after that first strike again.

And the other hand, we have positioned what we have to do now.

We sure have.

The porter is in on the right of the line.

Yeah.

Nobody's blaming us.

I mean, this is... You don't think so?

No.

That hasn't started yet.

I was thinking that maybe you ought to give a background on it so as to get the weekly new magazine and so forth, not a background on it.

And it'll lay the rest of the whole position with regard to the... You see, we can't repeat too often what our position is and say we've altered this, we've altered this, we've altered this, we've altered this, and they've turned it all down, okay?

Of course, that may...

I'm just writing it by you for a moment.

That may project upwards the...

Well, I can't do back...

I can't do background work anymore because they'll get upset, but I can talk to Hubbard and Schecter.

Oh, that's...

But if you want to read the news magazine.

Yeah, they won't be interested in that type of work.

Yeah, you could talk to him.

It's probably all right.

Just lay the rest, put the record straight.

It's at least worth doing that.

And I can do another method.

You might be frank with him.

It was free.

That at least gets it to him where it counts.

Well, your point is, are you... No, I'm still for the blockade.

Yeah, I mean, my point is bombing.

You know, the other exercise is one that we've been serious about.

No, I'm strongly for the bombing, too.

Yeah, no, no, no.

You favor the bombing.

I want my blockade to be the other one.

Another advantage of the blockade is that you can go to the American people, but you can't go to the American people.

About 40% of that, the American people, they were 26.

And you can rally the American people for a blockade, but you cannot rally them.

That's right.

And that's not an inconsistable...

It's a hell of an considerable thing.

...factor.

The blockade has the advantage that it's... First, it's a total commitment.

It's decisive.

I mean, in the end, let's face it, in the end, we've got to figure out, we could probably lose the election and so on and so on.

But in the end, with a blockade, we'll win the war.

Well, if you win the war, you won't lose the election.

Yeah.

You see, that's the problem.

The blockade, we know damn well in eight months we'll have it at their knees.

Oh, I think with bombing it will happen quicker.

With bombing before they can get alternative routes organized.

So, my view is...

The banque is to grouse the people, it puts it to the Russians.

I mean, the only advantage, as I told you earlier, a second earlier, of the, which the line of common came up with, is to, is to start bombing again.

And then, if the Russians still do not break off the sign,

You see, the bombing blockade then has this possible advantage, which I ran by you yesterday.

You bomb.

After bombing, the reference glitched, but it did not resolve itself.

Then, we continued on.

And I suppose we can go to the summit.

If you bomb enough, they'll break off the company.

There's no question about it.

Well, then, that perhaps is the conventurism, because we can't bomb unless you bomb enough.

We can't bomb and then have, but you can't bomb and then have them kicking us around while we're in Moscow.

You see, that's the point you made, which is tremendously compelling.

I cannot be in Moscow at a time when North Vietnam means a rampage through the streets of Hue, or for that matter, through the streets of Khartoum.

But let's go by it again and give the case as best as we can.

Hearing what we can, we bomb.

That's very important.

Yeah, we bomb.

We bomb.

Well, the main thing is to get it done, to get it going, so that it's going to affect the battles and so forth.

You've heard from Abrams, incidentally.

I wrote a cable, I sent a cable to Funker saying that I thought

that we will begin to lose patience with Abrams, that every time we want to do something, we just want to make sure that there are no confusing signals being given to Abrams, and therefore I want him to know that any authentic words from the President comes from me to bunker to Abrams.

There are no other authentic words.

If anyone tells him that you want something that is not true unless it comes from me to bunker,

That doesn't mean he shouldn't carry out military orders when they try to analyze you.

Now it turns out that he did get cross-signals.

So Laird, that bachelor, has been talking to him.

The cross-signals were about the bombing?

No, that you probably...

I would not...

I believe, and Mora believes, that Mora told Abrams that you would welcome a request from Abrams.

That Laird told Abrams that you would welcome a request from Abrams

that gave you an excuse not to bomb Hanoi and Haifa.

Yeah, mortar like this, rust like this.

And Frank has two-thirds confirmed it.

He's hilarious, so crazy that he's capable of that.

Oh, yes.

Clearly he's capable of that.

But why would Larry want to say that?

Why, because Laird has got political ambitions and he's positioning himself on the peace side of things.

But that he doesn't believe.

He doesn't believe that.

Now, I don't want to drag you off what you've decided, because I think we ought to keep on this course now.

I just want you to consider we should go on this as if we were going all out on it.

And I'm saying this to you.

I'm not saying it to Haig or to Morrow or to Conway or to anyone else.

I mean, we still have a few pieces that are going to come in.

We still have to get the Russian to fly.

So if it doesn't come by the end of the day, it's too late.

But I'm sure it will come today.

Yes.

See, another problem you face is you bomb Hanoi and I bomb.

And then the Russians do to you what they did to me.

They come and we'll talk about it.

Then you've got to stop again.

Of course, you could say, fine, but I won't stop now until... You could, well, put it that way, especially Romano and I, and the Russians say, look, you come and we'll have sort of a pause while we have the summit, as we did at the Chinese summit.

And if you remember, I said that it's a possibility, that it could happen.

Because we shouldn't look back to the Chinese.

I mean, I suppose we were bombing the North China Sea.

I suppose.

Look, let's read that out.

Everything's all right.

We'll bury this very good time and we'll cool it.

That'd be the tradition of where we're going.

We go, then we come back, we start bombing again.

The problem is, we're bombing the Hanoi and I bombed it.

It's very heavy.

Well, I know it's so important, except for the Israelites.

I know.

High law.

All right.

Bombing of the door.

We'll have to be prepared.

The great, the conclusive argument to me in favor of the blockade is that you cross the Rubicon, that what they are trying to do to you is to kill you now.

And I'm not sure.

I said this to this group last night.

They said, what are their Russian intentions?

I said, look, there's nothing that the Russians would rather do than get rid of the president.

He's the only thing that stands between them and dominating the world.

I said, now that's very true.

That is true.

But I was amazed by that group.

Well, you said it well.

That's why I hear it.

So, I don't believe they started out trying to overthrow the president.

But if he gets too vulnerable at home, then you people are, or whoever starts nagging at him, is responsible.

But what I think the...

Those people are sensible enough, for Christ's sakes, to think, to know that Humphrey or Goebbels or Kennedy would be passage for the Russians, aren't they?

Oh, yeah.

Don't I get it?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

It was, I must tell you, I had a, these last two evenings have been amazing in this respect, because usually I get mad that... Oh, Commie's point, of course, he's pretentious, but Commie talks to other people.

He's part of the polls and everything, he thinks that we've got...

You see, I say, you know, one question was, how do you defend escalation?

I said, I'm not going to defend escalation.

I said, that's not the issue.

There are only two issues.

One is, does the United States put a communist government...

into power and ally itself with its enemies to defeat its friends the second issue is do we can any president permit 60 000 americans to be made hostages and will be shame and indignity not direct our whole domestic uh structure those are the only also i think the issue that how can the united states stand by after offering peace in every order

and do nothing in response to an enormous enemy escalation.

We're only responding to an enemy escalation.

That's the real point.

See, I think what the North Vietnamese are saying to themselves is, all right, they know we're going to fight.

I mean, they know.

And they say to themselves, all right, we're going to take this.

And...

I think they're prepared to take the line.

Yeah.

Four...

You see, I'm a bloke.

And there's nobody that's more aware, because I, like you, are the one who recently was arrested.

So we both get the wrong view, which goddamn you Americans do.

That's why I said that when we put off the publication plan, we wanted to cancel the summit first, which I think we're absolutely right not going to do.

That was good advice from the Board of Commerce.

He had seen something that I had not seen, and I led you into that.

I led you out of that.

Yes, I did, because I remember what Eisenhower did, but I had really forgotten.

Well, I didn't hurt Eisenhower.

The Russians canceled the summit.

I didn't hurt him.

God damn it, the American people don't like to be kicked around.

Didn't our guys in Ireland and the dominant Japanese cancel this trip?

Remember?

Absolutely.

All right, now, to divert me, the Spice Brothers, and I'll never forget, when I got stoned in Caracas, they helped me.

People thought it was great.

Now, it depends how you react to it.

Here's the problem.

Looking at the long view behind me,

You might turn it around.

It runs a better chance of keeping the sons alive.

The Russians can live with all that.

Or you might not be able to live in a blockade.

All right.

That's the advantage of that.

But we constantly come back to the, basically Henry, to the fundamental problem and compete with his, you know, his animal-like decisiveness.

Which I also have, except that I have, through many years, I've put more layers and stuff on it.

But Connelly comes quickly to the point.

He says, look, the summit is great.

I hope you don't knock it off.

I think you can do both.

And I hope you can do both.

I think you will do both.

But, he says, even if you don't, if you're going to go first, then it's first.

You've got to remember, you can do without the summit.

But you cannot live with a beaten Vietnam.

You must win the war in Vietnam.

Or put it another way, you must not lose in Vietnam.

That's crystal clear.

So everything's got to be measured against what wins or loses in Vietnam.

And here is the weakness of fine.

Fine might turn the war in Vietnam around.

The blockade, certainly.

The blockade must finish that.

What I hear you saying, Clear, is that I think that's what I'm convinced of.

I mean, the blockade's saying, win the war.

The blockade kept you across the Lusitania.

There's no way to end it without the blockade.

Well, everybody knows then that I've thrown down the bomb, and there it is, and they want to pick it up.

And, you see, they're not going to lift the blockade, as I have said.

Well, it's an old man.

Bombing's not an old man.

Farming, they cannot do it.

This is the argument for the blockade now.

It heightens the chances of a confrontation with the Russians.

That's right.

It will start Chinese screaming.

That's right.

And you'll be accused of having blown everything of your foreign policy, which is, on the other hand, an advantage.

Great sadness for me.

We've got to end the foreign policy.

You had me wrong here.

The minute it all goes down the tube, we will be remembered as Farrakhan Luce as the one who went to China.

And in the future, that'll work out.

That's the best that you can – actually, if you get re-elected, it will make your foreign policy.

It's the same as the laws operation.

Everyone said that you've now broken it with the Chinese, and three months later, we were there.

And a year later, you were there.

So I think it won't – And if you come back to the fundamental point, as I took you up to that advantage, and I showed you that little place we looked at –

We think this whole great big wide world, everything rides on it.

He had to get rid of her away.

We didn't flush it.

We did not.

Never.

Flush it.

Get out of it any way possible.

And conduct a sensible foreign policy with the Russians and with the Chinese.

We'd do it.

We ought to do it.

Because there's so much at stake.

There's nobody else in this country at the present time, with the exception of Khan, in the next four years that can handle the Russians and the Chinese and the big game in Europe and the big game in Southeast Asia, do you know what I mean?

And the big game in the Japanese five years from now.

Who could help us if we're all right?

So that's the statement.

That's why I, the only reason that I had any doubts earlier this week was that I had to face up to the fact, as I saw the inevitability of my government, our country,

Or at the other possibility is Teddy, who might be the worst of the three.

Certainly.

But anyway, many other companies, because I saw that, felt that they were going to be the worst for sure.

But Teddy would be so stop and start that he might get us an even worse struggle.

Anyway, because I vote for peace, and I'm supposed to run right off the bat rather than cause the cost of all this slaughter.

So my point is...

I had to put that in the equation.

Therefore, I had to go down the line and say, how in the hell can we save?

How in the hell can we save the presidency?

And, frankly, the presidency.

And that saving is something I have considered to go on.

And I don't think there's any way you can do it.

I don't think there's any way you could do it.

And at the same time, I've temporized Vietnam.

I have reached the conclusion that we're in a situation where Vietnam is here.

And I'm trying to be a conscious player to the large scale.

I've taken an offer.

Have we really offered this?

I don't know whether we have.

We don't have one.

You can put your hand on it.

Mr. President, you and I know perhaps the only ones.

They had given us a face-saving way out.

I was prepared to take it.

You told me because you told me that.

They warned us out, but...

in a humiliating way.

They want us to put a communist government into power.

God damn it.

Let's face it, if they had accepted our May 31st proposal last year, they would have taken over Vietnam within a year or two.

I'll say.

Thank God.

I know.

I still wish they had, nevertheless.

Of course.

But it isn't that we've been intransigent in our office.

Not at all.

You see, if we could survive past the election...

And then Vietnam goes down and the U.S. doesn't make any difference.

But we have no way to survive past the election.

There's the other argument for bombing.

Maybe we could bomb, not blockade.

Still haven't suffered.

I think they're going to kill you.

They're going to put you into the Johnson position.

This is the other argument for the blockade.

They're going to have you as the bomber.

The guy, when I looked at that DRV, said they wanted you to break off the peace talks yesterday.

So you are the guy who doesn't talk.

I hope they don't, but it got across that they helped to break them off.

Oh yeah, it got across, but all of this is minor because these peace groups are going to keep...

The headlines are, we broke off from oxygen.

So that six months from now, three months from now, it's forgotten that there was an invasion, and therefore... Let me put it this way.

I know you've been thinking about this very much as I have.

But I've heard, I come back to the fundamental point.

Leaving the present town so far.

No, sir.

You could have.

Perhaps you could have a smart draft, Colonel.

That's impossible.

It could be.

Well, they did.

It would have been a safe country.

But, Mr. President, they're more likely to draft you.

They will not draft you.

Very good.

My point is, we have to face this now.

Leave me out of it.

Leave the governor out of it always.

The United States of America at this point cannot have a viable foreign policy if we are humiliated in Vietnam.

We must not lose in Vietnam.

It's as cold as ice.

Right?

I agree.

And they have not given us any way to avoid taking the money.

And since they have not, we must draw the sword.

So the blockade is on.

And I must say that I, as an athlete, by one thing understood.

You said boxing, that's...

Moore is right.

The surgical operation theory is all right.

But I want that place, whenever the planes are available, bomb the smithereens during the lock-in.

If we draw the sword out, we're going to bomb those bathrooms all over the place.

And let it fly.

Let it fly.

That's the only point.

We can do all of this without killing too many civilians.

I don't want to kill civilians.

I don't try to kill any.

But God damn it, don't be so careful that you don't knock out the oil burger tanks.

Oh, God no.

See my point?

God no.

Those have to go.

Would you please still study the dikes situation?

I don't think it's 200,000.

I don't think that what really is involved in the dikes, I think I know that country because I've been up to Hanoi.

I have.

What is involved there is these low kind of things, you know, the purposes really for the rice lands and the rest.

The people could get the hell out of there.

It isn't a huge dam of torrents of water without star deletions, but it'll do it.

Now, if that's the case, I don't think it will.

Do you see my point?

I want that studied.

I will.

You see, we've got to come back, and I think you're exponentially right to raise these questions with me, and I know why you're raising them, because I...

It's like you raised them for the same reasons you raised questions before it came to me.

I mean, the addressable allows, because you know that I have to consider these things, and you know I should state, and I think I appreciate that you're raising them.

But we come back to the fundamental point, and I ask this question before you go on.

Isn't there a serious doubt that bombing without a blockade may not accomplish our goal of preventing a loss in Vietnam?

And second, is it not also true that a blockade plus surgical bombing will inevitably

have the effect of bringing North Vietnam to its knees.

Unless the South Vietnamese collapse.

So the South Vietnamese collapse, but they still have to give us our prisoners.

We've got something.

America's not defeated.

That's my point.

America's not defeated.

We've got our prisoners.

There's one other thing we have to think about.

It's obvious that he's collapsed.

I don't know whether that collapse theory is going to hold out anyway.

I just hope I'm not too polyamorous, but I think that those lines are covered all the time.

Well, they're going to lose Khantoum, but to me what is so fascinating is that two weeks ago they were routed, and they still haven't moved against Khantoum.

Now, for all I know, they may take him next week.

And if they take three weeks to build up from provincial capital to provincial capital, we're going to kill them.

Do you notice they set up a government quandary?

Remember you've always said that's what they would do.

What the hell is quandary?

So they have a government quandary.

We're in the northernmost province of South Vietnam.

So if they continue to take these losses,

and then every succeeding push in military region three, either because they're regrouping or because they've run out of seed.

Yeah, when you talk to them, that answers my question.

Is it not true?

Can you?

Is it not true that insofar as our goal of preventing the loss of Vietnam... Black David's better.

It's not only better, but it's the only way that is relatively sure.

What the hell else have you got?

That's right.

I think it is right.

I think that the other tickets ran out.

They will not let us out, Mr. President, in a way that saves our dignity.

How did they let us out?

Not in the circumstances.

Also, the blockade, the blockade across the surgical line, I think you would agree, if psychology has anything to do with South Vietnam's will to resist, I don't know if it affects them at all.

My God, it'll be dramatic to tell.

Oh, it should affect them a little bit.

Because they'll know that we're in, and the guys can't.

And also, if John Connolly makes a complaint, won't it have some effect on the normality of the case?

Oh, yes.

And if we drop leaflets and make it clear what happened.

There may be one other point.

I don't think we can send Hague over there.

We need him here while this is going on.

I think Alderman agrees with us, too.

The trouble is, while these things go on, first of all, you may want to send me off.

I mean, supposing...

Can I send anybody over there?

That's the point.

I need to send somebody over there as a cop to watch that son of a bitch eat him.

I mean, the cop is right.

He should be fired.

Well, I would consider sending Dupuis, who is a tough, mean son of a bitch.

Where is Dupuis?

He's in the pandemic now.

He's got the reputation of being a nut cutter.

You get him in here and tell him what you want, and hey, can I tell him?

Sure, and he's first.

He was first division commander.

But I don't believe him years back.

He's a tough little son of a bitch.

But I don't want him to go over there and suck his.

Well, he was first division commander.

His trouble is that he's going to be tactless.

But let Bunker smooth that out.

But he's got to go over there and leave.

And he's going to be a direct line of communication to us and report to us as to what the situation is.

Send him over on a mission for two weeks.

No, I think he would rather replace Abrams.

Oh, good.

Good Christ, if we can get April to replace.

God damn, I don't know.

Is he got too many friends?

Bunch of cold areas.

Do you want to buy that boat for me?

Oh, certainly.

Another thing, Mr. President, is...

I'd much rather replace you.

We ought to get layered in on this.

I know he's a son of a bitch.

I know he'll try to screw us.

But that's nothing compared to what he's going to do to us if this thing was cranked up without it.

All right.

Why should I go today?

Tomorrow morning.

You're authorized.

And on Sunday morning, I'll get Alex Johnson when the court answers back.

You know, it's a crime if I have to do both Larry and Roger's in a time of agony.

There are some of which you see each other.

Oh, let us do that.

I mean, you've got to talk to them for one hour, because otherwise the bastards will say you.

Yeah.

But I'll do it, Dr.

I'll do it.

Boy, I've got to find the base.

But that cable from Bunker, it's really sickening.

I'll bring it in when I see you later.

Don't ever tell me about it.

I can see what he did.

In other words, he encouraged Abrams.

He said to him, Abrams, the same way he says to me, the president will be heart-sick when he sees this briefing of Hanoi and Iceland because you'll see there's nothing good there.

I've got the photographs.

We'll get more of the preview on it if you want to.

But then he undoubtedly called Abrams and said, look, the president is under great pressure.

He'd appreciate it if you gave him a good military reason that you need peace.

And Bunker, who is a good old soldier, would not say that there were misleading signals coming from Washington.

Morder said so, and Rush said so.

Rush told me that Lamb goes around the Pentagon saying that he talks to you all the time.

Well, so anyway, anyway, anyway.

All right.

Brant Laird did it, but he was swearing an absolute goddamn secrecy for a change.

The belief in the blockade is that if he's not to talk to Rogers and say, now, now I want to be by a candidate.

The president was frankly disappointed in the way that you and Rogers colluded.

Use that term at the time.

Can't believe it.

And also, at the time, the EC-120, you know, at the time, you can't believe that's the best you can.

He said, it just looked like that.

He said, it was made very rough.

Now, your DOE considers it to be

He considers you to be wild, you're hard-line, you're strong.

He needs you now.

Please help him and tell him the President was enormously grateful the way he helped him on Salt.

Now we need you here.

Tell him to die his cast.

He's made up his mind.

He's thought this thing true.

It's his own decision.

He's going to do it and this is it now.

This is it.

Now you support it and you and and and and and

Let's not have a situation where it's said that the Secretary of Defense joined with the Secretary of State, begging the President not to do what the President's going to do in this instance.

I think you should talk just that way.

Would you do that?

I'll get to it.

I just think it's too dangerous not to have it today.

We can go through it as a plan.

I hope you have a good one.

Right.

If you pull him back too early, you're just going to create a tremendous sensation.

I think we ought to pull him back.

He ought to come back at the close of Christmas Sunday.

Which...

I do not even cable it beforehand.

I just cable it.

Check his schedule.

Maybe he's not doing much on Sunday.

Well, he can leave Europe as late as 6 in the evening and still get my FIA.

He should keep his team over there.

And I think you should come by yourself.

Your team should stay.

I want you alone.

Do not have your team come with you.

You could go back.

Well, to have him abroad...

We can consider that tomorrow.

There's a lot to be said for them.

You'll have them on your hands all day Sunday, sir.

Well, I will.

I mean, I'm not going to see them all day Sunday.

Obviously, we want to see them.

I don't want to see anybody.

I've got to work on speech.

Let me look over his schedule.

If he hasn't got much scheduled on Sunday, maybe you ought to come back tomorrow night and then go back to Europe and ease in position to start treating people.

That's right.

On this.

That's right.

That might be.

There's a lot to be said for them.

If you enlist Mel O'Mara and say, now, Mel, I'm going to have a heart-to-heart talk with you.

The President's got great confidence in you.

He knows this.

He'll say he can.

He says there's no good choices.

Put it all out there.

Except don't be one of the other great congressional people.

Write yourself this.

Christ will be that great congressional people.

God will take care of you.

I think he does us more good with Congress than a pro.

Okay, you're right.

And then you can send somebody like a Floyd, some of us, for good.

Well, all three of you say, I'm not going to do that.

On this case, I'm not going to do that.

Tell them that.

Me?

Yeah, I mean, you don't do it in May.

It doesn't have to be a long time.

Well, I'll tell you, we can do it at 8 o'clock.

8 o'clock, 10 at night, and then else.

That's right.

You know what I think we ought to do?

I think what I say is do the big four.

Rather than the whole goddamn bunch.

That's not to be said to do, just to be clear.

Yeah, rather than having that whole cluster.

Otherwise, you've got to pull it right there and all the rest.

It will not be back in the whole cluster.

It will be back in that place.

That's about it.

I do the big four.

I let Rogers do full drive in the bottom direction.

Let Larry do the arm services.

I would not read the press.

No.

What do you think?

Absolutely.

I miss it.

Don't read the press.

Maybe not after the speech, but clearly not before.

No, I wouldn't do it, Ben, until late at night.

I'd do it the next morning.

I think you should do, Ben, the next morning.

Absolutely.

And if you go down the line about repeating again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

although you can do it all right now let's go let's go you understand absolutely i understand i want you to be gracious i want you to be totally you know

a little bit cool.

He asked about what was the president under, what about all these stories.

I said, I don't know.

I mean, he looked like an only

This is kind of like his conversation with Joe Black.

He said, look, it's obvious you can't do it, but if you're not, we understand.

If you're not doing it, but if you're not, we understand.

We're going to have to handle the situation ourselves.

We're not going to have to look at the press once we go ahead with our other things.

They're terribly important.

Okay.

Don't worry about it.

I'm not going to say it anymore.

I'm not going to say it.

Never look back.

Thank you.