Conversation 722-007

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My God, how are you?

Mr. President, you did great last night.

Thank you.

Well, it was excellent, and your delivery was superb.

A little present for you.

Those are all the answers.

Oh, great.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

That's good.

Oh, this is a little tragic.

Oh, yeah, that's wonderful.

Light is very nice, but it's, you know, here's some nice ones.

We were a little bit worried about that.

Oh, that's nice.

That's great.

See, the boats are in trouble.

It's a nice deal.

It really is.

It's big.

It's fine.

Yeah.

That's good.

There's a little arch over the screen.

There you go.

I didn't realize there was an elbow.

That's not a good one.

Oh, that's good.

Oh, that's wonderful.

Oh, that's my hand right here.

Oh, yeah, here we are.

It's the full room.

Yeah, it's the full room.

It's out of the room.

It sure is.

That's a great shot.

Oh, they're so nice.

Oh, yeah.

Big kick off the top.

Okay.

There's a lady in the audience.

That's great.

You were very kind.

There it is.

That's great.

That's fantastic.

That's a good one, don't you think?

Now, why don't you go ahead and complete my research on your little... Oh, yeah!

There it is.

And it's a great book.

That's what we put out in 1950, 20th century class, American European.

That's 1950.

We were able to find a copy of it.

We'll have to get all that.

The reaction that I have heard this morning to the speech has been very, very good.

I haven't really had time to go out and, you know, sit around and react.

But I've talked to some of our boys.

They went down to the coffee shop.

and the Treasury talking to the people.

And these are just the working people around.

They've had really no word of criticism.

I got the chauffeur.

He's the blacks.

They were talking.

I had lunch with Arthur over at the Fed.

He talked to all the blacks, the chauffeurs over there.

They all got the speech.

It was very good.

And I've heard no criticism this morning at all

Just not.

Most of the comments that I told Alex were, well, it long lasted.

Well, finally we did something.

And, well, I'm glad we did it, didn't I?

Better late than never.

I mean, you know, there was various expressions of approval, but all of it was approval.

So I must say, I think the reaction will be good.

Well, I must say, you told me earlier today

You did a hell of a good job.

You know, I was just thinking, you had to make a speech that night.

It'd take three hours trying to beat the goddamn cabinet in the line.

I mean, I've asked for it's, uh, it'd take three hours for my goddamn, after I spoke for 30 minutes, I'd be patient and said, all right, we're all for it now.

That's what we're looking for us to do.

But can you, can you imagine, you know,

Laird said, well, I'm against it.

And Rogers said, well, I'm for it if it'll work.

Jesus Christ, how the hell do you make a question better than that, John?

I'm for it if it'll work.

If it'll work.

Now, what in the name of God does, do we know?

I'm for something if it'll work.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, I didn't mean to be argumentative.

Oh, I thought you were.

I knew it was good.

Yes, he was.

He stepped up.

But, you know, you have to be argumentative because

I don't know.

I don't know why sometimes.

I guess those fellows both just want to have a historical record besides that they were against something.

If it doesn't work, is that what it is?

I'm sure that's right.

What is it?

Well, it's basically that.

It's basically no man in government gets in trouble by doing nothing.

That's true.

I think you're right.

You're right.

It's true of the services.

Particularly if you keep your finger on your number, you've got no problem.

And that's true in this bureaucracy.

It's generally true.

And they're as far as they can go.

It's true of business.

You know, people, that's why you have so few great business leaders these days.

People get to the top of the people who don't make any damn mistakes.

That's correct.

And that means they never did anything.

That's correct.

It means they're always following.

They never leave anything.

And these fellows are top of the hill.

They're not bucking for any, you know, any advancement or promotion or anything else.

All they have to do is try to take it.

protect themselves.

That's the only explanation I can give for it.

We did the right thing.

Oh, absolutely.

In the name of God, believe me, in the name of God.

Larry was saying, well, I suppose they did as well.

I suppose they did as well.

That's the point.

Maybe they'll hold.

But if they don't, we have time for that.

Then we have a number.

That's correct.

So we're buying the insurance.

And the other thing is, if we do this, maybe it won't work.

But there's a hell of a...

There's a better chance that it will work than it won't.

Of course, the key question, you noted, was at the last, where you would build a disagreement.

I said, well, now, let's come to the key point.

Let's suppose that we have a situation where a child Vietnam does go down the drain.

I said, is it better that we did nothing or that we did something?

And you said, well, it's better that we did something, and Bill says it's better that we did nothing.

Now, how in the name of Christ can you argue that point?

I don't know.

Did you hear his question?

Yes, I did.

I goddammit, I...

I throw it to you.

I didn't know Henry.

And I thought, well, Henry, of course, his bearish notes shows you often.

He doesn't have them, so they're both wrong.

But not that.

How can you possibly say, well, there's something special about the drink that looks better off if you just sort of let the dust settle, or if you cry like hell,

Well, even if you take the one point of having a bargaining column for prisoners, if we do nothing, we ain't got nothing against the prisoners.

You don't have anything.

Nothing.

Because if we won't be doing anything to them, they'll want us to get rid of them, you see.

Mr. President, I firmly believe if you did nothing and South Vietnam goes down the drain, you wouldn't get 20% of the votes this fall.

Because by that time, a reaction would set in

of such proportions in this country, there would be such a shock, the remorse, the sense of guilt, the realization that we had been militarily run out of South East Asia by North Vietnam, that we failed.

That our policy failed, that we misled the country, the military failed, everything else.

If, on the other hand, South Vietnam goes down the drain, but we go out with the guns blazing, something else.

That's a little different.

Sure is.

That's not a beat for America.

No.

Because we force them to do a few things.

That's correct.

It's entirely different.

Excuse me, Mr. President.

I'm sorry to interrupt.

I'm briefing now, and I referred to the practice meeting with the two senators in their report to you.

I'll be asked whether or not they wrote a personal letter back agreeing to show the lines.

Yes, product reading.

Personal reading.

I call it, and it's very, very, very, very partial to the conversations on all issues.

It's very helpful and important to us.

And I feel that they, Dr. Chauvin, I believe, that more, that they, I think, have laid the basis for more exchanges of this type of governmental people.

They both made reports to me too, right?

Okay, but you did not discuss last night's speech.

We did a little, but I wouldn't mention it.

Well, no, that was not the purpose of the meeting.

The purpose was to discuss it.

Thank you.

All right.

I just got to say that the thing is that the whole problem of any business, and it's true of business, it's true of law, it's true of government, it's true of any basis of life, you always do, you always have a shield.

They don't want to do anything.

They don't want to do any of the rest of it.

They just want to sit there in the damn bomb shelter.

Now, they get along.

They do pretty damn well.

But, uh, and sometimes they, well,

But in this instance, well, I couldn't be more convinced that we just had to do something different.

You had to do something.

Believe me, they've done well so far in Maryland.

Have they?

Good, yeah.

They laid the mines, and they landed a few bombs around, a few little installations there.

They had to clear the area out and send the planes.

Tonight, they're going to hit a major strike on the rail yards and on the POL.

And also, let me say this idea that

these planes can't cut both rail lines.

Bullshit.

And that they cannot, that they cannot knock out enough P.O.L.

if they have four months of supply.

That's bullshit.

They've cut them up.

That makes me mad.

I couldn't see straight.

I almost couldn't restrain myself, yes.

You see, we've got B-52s in there and everything else.

I've been raising hell all day with Laird neighbors.

More arrests.

I just think, I just know it can be done.

I think the difficulty in 1913, 1965, and 1968

because the bombing was so limited, you know, and Johnson just picked the goddamn part and sent it out.

Boy, now they've got to directly knock the fart around with 18 other places to drive there to get those railers.

And John, they, if they hit them every night, how the hell can the fucking trains run?

They can't.

You know what I mean?

And they haven't done enough Chinese labor to repair them.

They can't, I don't care how many Chinese they've got, they can't repair them if you're hitting them every night.

All you have to do is knock out one little section and they can't repair it by next week.

than 24-hour.

They just can't do it.

And the idea that all those planes with all those bombs can't keep up with them is really disruptive.

These are modern, great bombs and all these electronic equipment.

It's one of the things that we never had in World War II.

The other thing they're going to do, of course, is get airfields.

The things, the priority and target system are the airfields, the POS.

And as a secretary of the park, I told them the power plants.

I said, it's just what we picked up.

The flag was set up.

That'll push things to their place.

I also told them that I agree with them.

I said, now, the thing to do is to get them now.

My public opinion is with us.

And it will recede over a period of time.

But just to get them, and also get them unmercifully, when you put the shock right to them, they'll figure that more is coming.

Don't you agree?

Absolutely.

You knock out the utilities, and you just think what a power failure stops.

It stops a lot of things.

It stops all the machines.

It stops everything.

It stops their war-making capacity, what little they have.

Wow, sure.

Sure, they've got, I suppose, a very good plan.

That takes a lot to put that in, and they've got to get that required soil.

Yes, sir.

requires that if you get in those car lands, you're going to knock out a lot of stuff.

Oh, I think this bombing attack is going to be something that they're never going to forget.

They deserve not to forget it.

It's the only way you're going to have any impact on them.

They're continuing, actually, their offensive to the South.

And I said, fine, we expected that.

They're going to continue.

They'll probably get caught in trouble.

Who the hell cares?

They'll attack whoever.

On the other hand, the South Vietnamese have been given a great shot in the arm.

Jews moved another division out of the way area.

It'll be one hell of a fight.

And they may hold it.

And if they hold it, you understand.

You see, too, that having done this, it looked like this did it.

That's right.

And if it hadn't been done, they figured it wouldn't have been done anyway.

But beyond that, your point that it just doesn't make sense for them to be marauding around through the south.

for the North to be sitting there as a private sanctuary, except for the bombing of 65-68, which was so pinpointed on it.

No, you can't.

Otherwise, you can't win on that place.

No way.

You can't even get a negotiation on that place.

If I was, I wouldn't do it.

I think, too, you know, the song here...

But they may, they may, because apparently they may get their general treaty today, which of course is tomorrow, which is a day of great enforcement.

That's all right, we can't stop that.

All right, so suppose they do.

We just gladly say, well, we expected that, but we damn well aren't gonna pay the price of going to the sign.

of an american to be and you lose too much of that well even if not you won't lose anything as a matter of fact if they'll go on if they'll denounce you when they cancel it it'll help you domestically because you hear that you've got a foreign power a communist government picking on the president united states refusing to see him now the average american is going to reject that so uh you when they do you locate and say well that's fine uh i

I want to pursue every reasonable avenue for peace available to me in this world.

But I don't want to crawl over to Moscow while they're riding in tanks over our allies in Southeast Asia.

I'm not going to crawl over to Moscow.

And I don't want to pay the price of the summit.

It wasn't Dunkirk.

The summit in Moscow is not worth Dunkirk.

The, uh, the, uh, the, uh, conduct of some work in our clinic, uh, Francis, I mean, I think of how I supported Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and all of a sudden, my God, I mean that.

I'm hungry, and musky, and giddy.

I've got to rush right off to denounce the damn thing.

God, isn't that so pitiful?

I mean, it's really so wrong.

I mean, what the hell do they want you to do?

You know, you think you're truly awkward.

We've made my mom go far.

We'll stop the blockade and get out in Portland so you can give us a ceasefire and our prisoners.

Now, what in the hell more do they want?

I don't know.

What more could you give them?

Nothing more could you know.

No, and frankly, frankly, you'd kill them.

You'd give it all you ought to give.

We've really made it too much.

We've given it much.

We've proved our good faith.

We've withdrawn 500,000 men.

We have offered two's head, in effect.

And they say, no, no, we've got to oppose the Communist government.

Well, no, no, we're not going to do that.

Well, it's kind of an Armageddon, in a sense, for our country, because the

If at the present time the country will not stand up against this demand for an abject humiliation, defeat, and surrender, the United States says it's a great power.

No question about that.

Would you answer the question?

Yes.

I'm sure you'd say you can recover from that.

Mr. President, we ought not to make that assumption.

I agree with you.

But it's not fair.

for us to assume that the American people won't stand up when they haven't had a chance.

I agree.

Well, that's what we've given them.

Now, you've given them a chance.

Now, the Kennedys, the Muskeys, and the Governs don't give them a chance.

No, they run it down.

They give them no alternative.

Now, this is just—if I may translate this action into other actions for a minute.

I think what you have in this country is a—you have a basic

unrest of a fairly enormous proportion.

You have a basic frustration in this country.

It's true all over.

It was certainly true in Texas.

It was aggravated in Texas by the scandals there, to the point where the incumbent governor got eight percent of the votes, and my good friend Ben Barnes got about eighteen percent.

And a woman beat the hell out of him.

And Don Briscoe, he couldn't even get in the runoff.

Last Saturday— Oh, the Texas government.

What happened?

Oh, just murder.

They just wiped everybody out.

Who won?

Well, no one's won it.

They got a runoff between Dolph Briscoe and this woman, Sissy Farrington, who's a big McGovern, McGovernite.

Oh hell, Ben Barnes got 18% of the votes.

Who in the hell is Briscoe?

Dolph Briscoe is a friend of mine who's a farmer and rancher who's a product of this guy Delos Walker from Memphis, Tennessee.

He's a boy that

that this PR firm just took, and he never made a damn speech, wouldn't keep his appointments.

And there's nothing wrong with him, but he was just nothing.

And hell, this pure media campaign and the scandals in Texas, and they just wiped the slate.

They beat the attorney general with a very bad fellow, this John Hill, and I know him well.

Hell, I've heard him, Secretary of State.

I say he's bad, and he's not good.

Oh, they wiped them out.

Just unbelievable.

Everybody's stunned, just shocked by it.

But much of that is Texas.

But more than that, there's a basic unrest in this country.

And it's a very dangerous political atmosphere.

And I've tried to analyze this thing in a way I don't claim to be a political seer or wise man.

But I don't think there's one answer to it.

can't meet it on an issue-by-issue basis.

That's malarkey.

I'm sure a lot of people... Not revenue sharing.

No, no, no.

Nothing.

What this country basically wants and has to have is strong, positive leadership.

And that's what they're responding to.

It's the only thing they're going to respond to.

And they're responding to Wallace because he's saying something.

On the other hand, they're responding to McGovern because he's saying something.

They don't necessarily agree with what he's saying, but he's saying something.

Now, here are a whole two men, a whole part, that they're responding to with enthusiasm.

Why?

Because they think they're saying something.

Now, Humphrey, there's no enthusiasm at all.

Now, the American people, Mr. President, for the first time,

When we dropped the atom bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, we did something to this world, and we did something to America.

We not only started a technological revolution, but we started a psychosis of fear and uncertainty and insecurity in the minds of the American people.

Always before in the history of this country, we had been able to take up the pitchfork or go and get the long rifle, or we had been able to mount a tank

World War II, we'd been able to fight in an airplane.

We fought with weapons we understood and knew how to manage and control.

But with the advent of the atom bomb, aggravated by our trips to the moon and so forth, we convinced the American people that things were happening in this world, the creation of the missiles, over which they had no control and against which they had no defense.

So for the first time, the American people have an insecurity

that they have an insecure feeling and they feel fear for the first time ever in the history of this nation.

They feel completely incompetent to deal with a problem that will hit their face.

This is true in the international sector.

It's true in the international monetary field.

It's true even on the domestic front because of the complexity of government.

It's gotten too big for them.

So this whole thing, this psychosis of fear and insecurity manifests itself in many different aspects.

So the net of what

What you have to do, it seems to me, you have to provide the leadership.

You and I have discussed, there's no leadership at the state level.

There's none in Congress, in either side.

They can't look there.

There's no leadership in this country except you.

And you have to survive.

And it really is immaterial in many, many cases which side of an argument you come down on, provided you come down on it strongly, firmly, and quickly.

So that people think and believe that that's what you think and that that's where you want to go.

And somebody has to leave this nation.

If you don't, you're going to have anarchy in this country in a triple year.

Because you're going to have Kennedy, Humphrey, or McGovern.

And my judgment's still going to be Kennedy.

Regardless of who it is, Kennedy or McGovern this fall will lead us very close to anarchy.

Oh, yes.

in the type of campaigns that they conduct.

And the only defense against it is strong leadership.

Now, all I'm saying to you is that if we get into a longshoreman strike, and I'm not now talking about Samaria Southern, but that you move.

That you move hard.

That you move quickly.

And whatever else comes up that has nationwide implications on buses,

You've moved on it, but we said it a little too long there, Frank.

We said it was too long.

We were a little bit too scholarly in the treatment of it to make an impact.

Well, either that or a plan of your own.

But you ought to say courts have gone too far and so forth.

Sometimes the rhetoric, just the rhetoric, outside of the plan, you can submit it a very reasonable plan.

All I'm saying to you is that, frankly, you can't even afford to be too...

and too responsible.

Your actions might be responsible, but the rhetoric sometimes may have to be a little irresponsible.

It may have to have an emotional ring to it.

I thought your speech last night was excellent because it had all those elements in it.

But this I think you're going to have to, from now through this next fall,

And I don't just have to, and all this stuff up on the hill, I don't think he'll be.

Basically, I don't know.

I really don't.

Because that's not where the problem is.

First place, you can't control it.

Second place, you've got to ultimately wind up running against Congress.

Because you can't run as you come.

This is an extremely bad year for Congress.

It just is.

It's been true.

It's been true the last couple of years.

Yep.

If you look at the election over this, over this country, the last couple of years, particularly in chief executives.

Governors, they're just governors.

Governors.

Like the last time, the governors, the ones that got the hell kicked out of them.

Yeah, they have a lot of them.

Ferris Flott, who was a great governor of Florida, got the hell kicked out of him.

Carl Sanders, a fine governor, got the hell kicked out of him.

The governor, the former governor of Combs, Burt Combs of Kentucky, stuck a hell of a thing together.

It was a good governor, powerful, very popular, and so on, right across the board, everywhere I've been today.

So it's a, it's a phenomenon, I think, of our times, and as we go along, there'll be a lot of potatoes, a lot of coals, a lot of this, a lot of that, but

The poles never reflect the undercurrent.

And it seems to me that you have to hope to be successful.

You're going to have to anticipate.

You have to think ahead of the poles.

I believe in the poles.

The poles reflect the past.

Is it like the poles reflect what was going to happen in the past?

Not, no.

Not nearly to the extent.

The only way the poles reflected it was the number of undersized.

And everybody should have known.

Yeah, that's always the dangerous thing.

That any time you have that in the underside of your throat...

I can't understand why it's getting on your teeth.

Oh, yes, it was a...

He's a very attractive fellow.

Oh, it's unbelievable.

One of the really bright young men.

And was in no way connected with the scandal.

Yeah.

Actually, what they thought he was.

What they thought he was.

And hell, this woman, this Sissy Farrington, who's for legalized abortion, who's for legalized marijuana, who's for this and who's for that, a very radical woman.

beat the hell out of him.

Got beat him by 150,000 votes.

And is it the runoff for him?

Oh, yes.

Oh, it's a... Well, he will, I think.

But it's a hell of a debacle.

And... No, no, he's not too bad.

He's a nice guy.

I know him, my God.

I know him intimately.

But he's a

And he'll be all right.

Amazing.

He's got a basic weakness of character.

He just won't always stand.

He's a very selfish, small, young fellow, that's all.

Not real young.

He's 48 or 49.

How about this Sissy?

Sissy Farrington is about 45.

And she's from the state legislature.

Yeah, she's a member of the state legislature.

Her father was a distinguished lawyer down there.

She's a graduate of Hockaday and I think the Fage School and so forth.

But she's a promiscuous damn gal and smart as hell.

One of the law students, smart as hell.

But she runs with that liberal element and just carouses.

Where does she come from?

Sir?

Where does she come from?

Corpus.

Oh, yeah.

That happens.

She just came on like gangbusters.

People just went crazy.

And that's what's going to happen.

That's what's happening all over the country.

It's happening in the Democratic primary, certainly.

Yes, but it reflects the mood of the people generally.

I understand.

I don't think it's just the Democrats.

Oh, I know that.

I know that.

Well, that's...

That's right.

That's the only place you can see a test right now.

Now, I think the Democratic Party is going through the throes of a suicide, which is fine.

And I think what—I think the riots that occurred on the outside in 68 are going to be on the inside in 72.

They're going to be inside the hall.

Oh, sure.

Well, it touches again.

McGovern got at least a third of all the precinct connections.

Wallace got about a third.

And about a third, I guess, are uncommitted.

And the only way they could have stayed uncommitted were those few that were for Humphrey and those uncommitted and those for Wallace occasionally ganged up to beat the McGovern people.

You mean McGovern got a third in Texas?

At least.

Oh, God.

At least the way it looks now.

That's unbelievable.

Well, this is totally unrepresentative, you see, of Texas.

But there it is.

And the net of it is now.

And a large part of this can be explained by the fact that the average fellow didn't go to his first convention.

He'd made up his mind, and I think that the odds are every bit of this more clearly ensures that you're going to carry the safe.

And that's fine in Texas.

That's great.

But I'm not sure that this same feeling is going to have the same result all over the United States.

That's right.

And the only way that I think you can be sure is that you have to be out front and you have to be leading every time you get a chance on the domestic front and on the international front.

Yes, I sure do.

Everything is going.

Are we seeing, are we partnering with our department?

Where can we get a domestic friend?

Well, I'm sure it's all going to get to the tax thing.

No, no.

That's a no-time thing.

As the year goes on, we've got some figures and all on the tax thing.

You can take them over the ropes on this tax thing.

Once the campaign starts, if it's a McGovern, you can whip him to death for this amnesty for the draft Godfrey.

Yes, sir.

his abortion stand, his pot, and so forth and so on.

Now, as of this moment, you can't do anything.

You ought not to do anything.

You sit and take it.

But, no, I think it's going to be Teddy, and if it is...

Still could be Humphrey, couldn't it?

Still could be Humphrey.

If Humphrey comes on.

And this could be...

This would be the best...

I think best for you.

Yes.

Well, I do for the reason that he will not generate the enthusiasm.

It will not be as mean a campaign.

It's just kind of an old shoe.

He's not going to turn the people out.

You'll have more enthusiasm than he will.

Now, if it's Kennedy or McGovern, there's going to be a great division in this country.

Yeah, it's going to be bad for the country.

It's going to be a very, very sharp reaction, of course, in that environment.

Anything can happen.

Tell me about the Democrats.

You said you think it's going to be an answer to all of you.

What do you mean?

Well, in fact...

The kind of delegates that will come will be a bunch of shitasses.

Right.

And uncontrollable.

Uncontrollable.

What kind of people are those?

They're college students, they're college professors, they're intellectual liberals, and that's it.

Blacks.

A lot of the blacks, yeah.

Chicano.

And the truth of the matter is, they're no leaders.

See, we've destroyed the leadership of the country, whether it's good or bad.

Lindsey's no leader of New York, and no city leaders.

The only thing is, and he's been partially— He's been roughed up.

They've been roughed up.

He doesn't have half the strength.

He lost his state, didn't he?

Sure.

What's he got?

Well, he's got maybe half.

He has half the delegation.

He hasn't had all of it.

Oh, totally.

You have no leadership in New York, none in Pennsylvania, in the Democratic ranks.

You've got—you already certainly won't have any hand in it.

Neither will I.

You already—

Texas will have no leadership.

We don't know what the hell's going to happen in Texas.

It'll be a wild, wild allegation.

I'm talking about the Democratic convention.

If it's wild in Texas, where do you think it's going to be from?

From the other states.

Colorado and Wisconsin and Minnesota and New York and Connecticut and so forth.

New York will be wild.

It was wild in 68.

The whole thing is going to be brokered.

But the hell of it is that you don't have any brokers doing the brokering.

You're going to have... You don't have the Truman's or the Rayburn's or the Johnson's or the Davies and the old days of Wagner and David Lawrence.

You don't have these people.

Oh, that's right.

See, you've got a... Everybody used to knock those people, but they at least provided stability and continuity.

And everybody knew what leadership was.

But here, you have no leaders.

All these people are going to be running around, every man trading for himself.

And nobody can control them.

These are uncontrollable people.

That's why they're where they are.

That's why they form a government.

And I think this will be a done program.

And that's fine unless the damn thing catches on to the point where you have, where you have a degree of anarchy that's going to keep you in control.

And also, as you say, unless it catches on, they, they can take Kennedy and just get a wild orgasm of anarchists sweeping across the country like a burning fire.

I agree with you though, John, there's no reason for us

at this particular point to do anything for the good of the country that doesn't have moxie.

And frankly, it isn't what we do.

It's how we say it.

That's right.

Get out there and sound good.

We're doing something.

And don't be so damn responsible.

That's right.

Don't at least be responsible.

Don't sound so damn responsible.

People want to hear the eagles scream a little bit.

They should.

You have to.

You absolutely have to.

I just wouldn't spend a lot of time on a lot of these things.

The jurors actually get wrapped up in my track rather than everyone else so far.

I get prepared to denounce this Congress on spending.

Now, I think here's the case.

I think as soon as you get through with this Russian summit, that you ought to come back and let Kev, George, have a long visit with you on this election.

Because this spending is standing out of hand.

Yeah, yeah, I understand.

Well, here again, here's something you can talk about.

We're going to cut out on spending.

Get out and just demagogue the hell out of it.

Just say, yeah, we're going to have taxes on, but I'm out of balance getting more taxes imposed on the American people until we cut this spending, and I'm going to cut it.

I ran a big deficit.

And you say, but I'm not going to run another one that size.

I'm going to look at every single one of these borders, and I'm going to cut out on them.

And I just demagogued the thing all over the lot.

And then I set about to do it.

I wasn't demagogic in the sense of not promising something I wouldn't do.

Well, also, it's the right thing for the country to do.

Well, of course it is.

It is.

We can do it without an awful lot of... We can do it without an awful lot of...

So...

All these manpower training programs show that 85% of all the jobs they've created are within the program itself.

They just hired people.

Outside employment, 15%.

For all the manpower training programs.

What about 5 billion next year?

3, 4, 5.

Gosh.

So, I mean, you know, if you just turn these fellows loose and let them find you some places where you can cut.

If you don't, you are going to be hit with a tax reform.

You can't go and do this all.

You can't do this with a tax increase.

You ought not to go with a tax reform because all they're going to do is say it's a tax increase.

And they're going to cut every frame that you've got.

They're going to cut business.

Not cut business.

I don't mean they're going to cut their taxes.

They're just going to cut the hell out of it.

And they're going to try to, they're going to pass the provisions in that tax law that is going to be doing capital harm to this country and may damn well plunge this country back into another recession.

Because if you start messing with these tax laws one more time, I think, before an election, you're going to panic.

Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

We just got it.

on some sort of trail in the present time.

But I don't want to sound pessimistic, because I'm not always pessimistic.

As a matter of fact, I'm optimistic.

But I've just had this.

I've been thinking for three weeks, four weeks about this.

I've been troubled myself about it.

I used to read the results of these primaries, and it was horrible.

It really is.

To think of an asshole like McGovern getting the kind of votes he's going to get, it's just unbelievable.

You bet it is.

He is a terrible person.

Now, I don't care what you say, but whenever a guy like McGovern gets to the point where he is the leading contender for the Democratic nomination, this country is in trouble.

Yeah.

They talk about the country being in trouble, and all the gold miners,

That's right.

He's a patriotic man.

Patriotism.

Humphrey's got patriotism.

Humphrey does, but he's damn weak.

That's right.

He's a decent man.

McGovern's not a... McGovern basically makes the case that he both doesn't believe in the country.

He hates our system.

Basically, I think he's very close to being... Well, let's face it, he's a damn socialist.

I think he is.

With a blind spot of confidence.

No question about it.

Teddy Kennedy is not a patriot.

That's right.

He's a totally selfish individual.

Now,

Frankly, what I think, if I would just analyze Teddy Kennedy, what I think he would like to do is create an atmosphere of anarchy in this country, hoping he could be elected president and then he could use this atmosphere of anarchy to where he could set himself up as a dictator in the country.

Now this sounds way out, but I don't think it's way out at all.

That's correct.

Bobby was really trying to stir people.

He made some horrible speeches.

That's correct.

Remember the thing he made about the law?

The law is the enemy.

My God.

For the Foreign Secretary General?

The law is the enemy.

Say that.

You can't say to the folks that the law is the enemy.

Maybe it's an American phone call.

I don't know what in the world.

Well, I'll tell you this.

And the best fight they ever had because, you know, taking this last thing we've done.

And we stepped up to it.

We're not going to do it on everything because the stakes are too high.

You know, we can't let a demagogue, we can't let somebody who has no belief or faith in that country, you know, take it over.

God, there's some things that, you know, those things are not so easy.

but a lot of this...

There are people in bed.

Sure.

And all they need is to be mobilized.

Sure, they need to be mobilized.

They need to follow someone.

But they need to have some esteem and have somebody a little fight like their opponents, right?

That's right.

They have to have somebody around them.

They can run it.

But people want to run it.

Everybody has to.

Right now.

Everybody does.

Absolutely.

Particularly if you're going back to

Well, in a real sense, they can't, Mr. President.

And, frankly, the country very well might be in a position at the present time where it would follow

No question about it.

It's true, sure.

I believe it.

Now, why do I believe it?

For all the reasons I've been given.

But this is why people want to feel that they have a presence that's going to protect them against the communists.

And another thing, this is why everywhere I go, I don't care what they say about me in Canada or in Europe,

Everywhere I go, they pat you on the back and they applaud you.

I don't have any word of criticism anywhere in the United States that I've been about the hard line on trade.

Or monetary affairs.

Because they feel like somebody up there is looking after them.

And frankly, the American people at this point want to be looked after.

Not in the sense that they're all craving and gutless.

But they frankly think there are a lot of things that are beyond their control.

And it's to that instinct that you have to appeal.

And this is part of what I was trying to say yesterday, and I didn't want to get that deeply into it, but that's why you had to do something.

Oh, sure.

Of course, part of the battle, there had to be some sort of leadership, Sean.

That's correct.

They see, and also we have to realize, Sean,

And one of the major culprits in creating this thing is the media.

That's right.

Every night they pound home to the people.

That's right.

The fear, the negativism from the country is hateful and so forth and so on.

And I think on the press, I think a more effective approach to the press, the Vice President does a superb job

on attacking the press.

And he fires up these people.

But at least he does, because he says some of these things.

He's got the same kind of feelings as I do.

He just feels those things.

Probably in the long run, what we ought to say about the press is that tragically the press has forgotten its lesson to report.

And every writer now, every byline writer,

wants to be a columnist.

Unfortunately, his columns will no longer appear on the editorial page or on the front page.

The American people, so long as we understand that, and so long as we understand that the commentators on television are, in effect, giving you editorials.

They're not necessarily just reporting the news, but they're covering the news with their own views.

And that's all right, so long as we understand it.

So we can discount it.

You know, do it in a fairly general way.

in a gentle way, not too critical, but just to point out, because this is what's happened.

And this is what is just happening.

Every reporter now wants to inject into a news story his own philosophy.

Whether he's writing about the environment, or the war, or economics, or whatever.

All the way down to that point, that's doubly true on the television.

Or it isn't just the reason.

Where the reporter is somewhat of a mouthpiece with the people that write those little scripts for you.

basically are doing that.

And let's face it, without getting into any anti-Semitism, we're a terrible, liberal, Jewish clique.

And that systematically needs to be weaned a bit from this government.

Oh!

Oh, God.

It erodes our confidence, our strength, our trustworthiness, you know.

It is, John, that is something.

That's something you can't ever talk about, but you need to.

By the way, the Justice Department is full of Jews.

Any place of power.

SEC used to be all of them, those lawyers.

Listen, the lawyers of the government, I think, demand Jews.

get in there and this is their chance to observe power and make it for other people.

And they build a relationship with us.

That's not a good thing.

I don't know how you handle them, but... Well, you have to, again, I think you have to get people who you know and you just have to watch it and you have to get the guys like Brett Connick and others

I mean, there are a lot of people that follow the runs of the Park Service.

I don't know if all of them are from the Park Service.

bad or good, but Ramos told me he's not any good.

So I don't know.

But anyway.

So maybe they're 8,000, maybe they're 10,000.

And just ask for their resignations.

If I didn't want them, I mean, in my effect, why not?

Should they be changed?

They're not very many.

That'll shake up the people down below.

That's correct.

I think that's what we have to do, John.

We just out and say, Ballsby, appreciate your work.

And years ago, we're going to get a new room in here.

Really, it's time for a change.

That's right.

Well, in the first place, the government is too incestuous.

And it's too incestuous in terms of the philosophies involved.

No matter who's in power, and I see it in the treasurer.

The tax lawyers, they've all been here before, and they all expect to come back again, and they all have the same philosophy.

The economy should be the same.

They come in and out, they're out of the same law firms, they're out of the same schools, they're out of the same craft.

The names change.

The philosophy's the same, regardless of what administration you're in power.

Now, with a few exceptions.

But by and large, that's true.

And this is true throughout this government.

And I find my damage is getting there.

But it's hard to do.

It's just, you get away from this Harvard Bennett suit I put in with,

The Harvard Business School.

Well, they just, every nomination, they've seen you every time they find you.

The Harvard Business School.

And all the Harvard, period.

Well, that's my view.

That's my view.

And Yale.

And all the whole bunch.

I'll tell you, it's bad.

It's bad.

I'm not sure Stanford's any better than Chicago.

Yeah, but at least you get a global chance.

At least you get a different setting.

You get a different background than these fellows that come out of those schools.

They come up in a different environment.

So you at least have some folks.

Any time that they have been there in that New England area, now in the present time, they're bound to have been corrupted.

They're just bound to have been.

And damn it, we're just not going to have them around.

But I think it's just the business school, the Harvard Law School, the whole damn pollution.

They're out.

Out.

That's all.

And that itself will be good.

Not that, frankly, you don't find a lot of radicals.

Even Texas or Ohio.

But the point is, your chances of finding some that aren't so radical in those states are greater than to get them out of Harvard.

That's right.

That's really it.

It's a matter of percentage.

And the environment is better, as you say.

But if you ask for every presidential party's representation, you'll be doing this country a great service.

I think it's great.

I just think it's great.

And just to say that's it.

We're going to start anew.

We just need a new room here.

And everybody, we thank you very much.

We appreciate what you've done for your country.

And now we're starting all over.

And I think it also, the Pentagon's got to be shaping up.

It's got to hold that Pentagon.

I mean, that McNamara crowd, a lot of them are still there, and a lot of them aren't even good for those systems analysis boys.

Needless to say, the State Department will give those boys a hell of a cleaning out that they have to go.

But all of the other departments, the whole government needs it.

And Malik and all of them are cold enough that they'll get working on it.

If we have the opportunity, it's going to be done.

I said, I want this damn list, and it's to be ruthless, and there should be no exceptions, and out they go.

Then, of course, you may find out of the group, you might find maybe half a dozen loyals.

But I'd rather, excuse me, but... Well, you can always, you might really save some, you might ship some.

Yeah.

You'll find some.

But not be sure that you can never...

Never accept it, never accept it on faith.

Nope.

Because these people are great at buttering eyes on whoever they think is going to be in it.

Well, let me take it further for you.

You can't protect yourself.

You can't protect yourself against your friends in business.

See, these business people come down here, and they get a guy in Interior, or they get a guy in the Bureau of Land Management, or they get a guy in the FCC, or the FCC, or the Treasury, and they're his friend, and he's their friend.

I don't mean anything evil about it, except they just drop their death in

And they'll come in and they'll vouch for him.

When they know damn well he really isn't loyal to them.

So you break up this little cycle, too.

You have one other problem, of course.

You've got people in Congress who have their own favors pulled for.

And they have got people their lines in.

But we will owe nothing to the damn Congress for Republican or Democrat.

And they'll just have to go.

I'm sorry.

general policy.

I really think that it would be a very refreshing thing that you would ever want to just go through with a scythe and cut them off.

I mean, like Jackson did.

You know, remember when he had clean amounts and he started the spoil system?

Of course, I'm basically for the spoil system.

I think it's right.

Well, I think it's right.

I think it's right.

You know, I don't believe that civil service is a good thing for the country.

No.

And I think it's time to just get in there and clean them out.

And find other people and have loyal people.

And if I got this, go right down the line.

You know, I must say that the only area where we haven't done somewhat of a good job up to this point is the Supreme Court.

We've got four judges on there.

And the great challenge of this election, if we can win it again,

Basically, we'll get about at least three more of them.

We'll try to replace one or two of these guys in the patrol.

But isn't that something?

To change that damn quarter is the most important thing we can do.

You know, it's an interesting thing.

Take a poll.

As nice as Potter Stewart, when Potter came down here as a Republican from Ohio, which seemed to be relevant in certain days, he got sort of mesmerized with the Georgian onset.

He goes out there and drinks with them and all the rest of it.

Some of the bench people's wrong half the time now.

Oh, yes, at least half the time.

Yeah.

And so have others.

And I don't think that we've done well.

We've gone on there because Berger is strong.

Black and Paul is Berger.

And Rehnquist is to the right of both of them.

And Powell versus Strongman.

We've got four good men there.

Boy, if you could get rid of, say, if that damn Thurgood Marshall was a dummy.

Get rid of Thurgood Marshall and Douglass.

Douglass, those two.

If they could go and have their car changed, that will make a great difference.

They found change in the country.

God, the psychology.

Speaking of the Congress, if you can get this campaign really rolling this fall, which you can't,

and with the actions leading up to it, the strength with which he can supply, we just might take out one of these radical congressmen, and he'll run against that congressman.

We have to.

We have to try.

We have to run against them.

Certainly, certainly you can run against them if we get the brakes in the fourth ball sphere.

Yes, that's right.

You can run against these people on the patriotism issue.

That's right.

And that is a dedication.

That's right.

You know, you can really scream them on that.

And also, there are other radicals.

God, they are a miserable bunch of people.

They really are.

When you have to put up, you know, we do on the firing line all the time.

Like Charlie Bannock and the Henry Royces and the Sam Gibbons and the William Proxmires and all this crap.

It just makes you want to throw us down.

The economy's in good shape.

I think it's running well.

I'm not concerned about the unemployment hanging in there.

I don't think it's very real.

Your activities and your basic industries are going to reflect in more jobs and further expansion.

It's strong on all fronts.

I don't worry one bit about the unemployment.

Yeah, let me ask you, if you get an opportunity in the next two or three days to say something on this decision, it would be helpful about it publicly.

You know what I mean?

All right.

I just have a feeling that, because I thought you were there when the decision was made, and you're in the Security Council.

I had an interview with Semple this morning, out of the New York Times, and I have the

These people who are directly in the cover of the Gregory tomorrow, about eight or ten or twelve, are going to rest.

And I'm certain they're going to be there for the record.

And that's what I'm tying to.

How about in a press conference?

If you have a press conference that we can televise it, that would be...

I don't know.

You know, what I was thinking was that if the Democratic caucus comes up with some jackass stuff, which is probably...

then maybe if you were to get a press conference.

I mean, this is without regulation, but that's what I'm saying.

You know, we're going to draw in leaders from Washington.

You know, George Meade came out for us.

Oh, did he?

Oh, yeah.

That's great.

Thank you.

Thank you for this.

Yeah, well, thanks.