Nixon, Rogers & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Soviet Summit

2:10:11Oh, sure.
2:10:11They don't want to have it.
2:10:12They don't want to have it.
2:10:14People are better than the Russians.
2:10:20Well, that's right.
2:10:21And that old boy took along with some of them, right, and said, you know, don't give them a chance to manage your land or anything, you know.
2:10:29Remember, he's one of those former communes, like, who don't say anything.
2:10:35So I think that's the right thing to do.
2:10:38Yeah, go.
2:10:39We'll stop this way.
2:10:39It's all right.
2:10:41Okay.
2:11:10I just got a good day.
2:11:11Beautiful tree this spring.
2:11:13Too bad you don't have a place here where you have a little privacy.
2:11:15This isn't the place.
2:11:17No, you can't really walk out of the lawn.
2:11:21You can't see the fence.
2:11:22You can't see it.
2:11:23I don't think you've seen it.
2:11:26You know, Johnson's such an exhibitionist.
2:11:29He let me go down to the fence.
2:11:30Just the babies and all that sort of stuff.
2:11:32I didn't, uh...
2:11:38I've been thinking about what I think is best.
2:11:51First of all, I think
2:12:09They, uh, that's what those, uh, sponsors here, you know, they want to be with us a thousand percent, but most of them aren't much in the way of character.
2:12:19Well, Peterson and Flanagan are supposed to be putting it to them.
2:12:23You know, because we've, we've had this problem.
2:12:24The business council always, they talk about their great support of the president, and everything, everything's out of their meetings at that first.
2:12:31I thought what I'd do is, it's almost what I did to the sub-captain, because that got a good emotional response.
2:12:36Yeah, it's the emotional response.
2:12:38And, uh,
2:12:39And I just, I think if you could emphasize, Bill, that this was a very hard decision, as you said, and that we sat there, you were there, we sat there for three hours.
2:12:49We heard every argument.
2:12:51We could have done it either way, and that I rather did it the easy way.
2:12:55I did it the hard way because I think it's the right way.
2:12:58And also the political risk.
2:12:59Bill Smalls will understand that.
2:13:01If a little of that could get across to them.
2:13:04That group was quite, interestingly enough, quite well covered.
2:13:09because the people who are down there, it can affect their morale and the market.
2:13:16The market's going to put the heat on them for some support of the president.
2:13:20You can lay the backdrop.
2:13:21You don't have to do that.
2:13:22You don't need to do it.
2:13:23That's the job.
2:13:24You lay the backdrop and then let them.
2:13:25I mean, it's so close.
2:13:26It's the administration, the administration.
2:13:32Really, what I'd like to just find out from you,
2:13:36general attitude, because I testified open Monday and Tuesday in a public session once in the Senate, once in the House.
2:13:40Yeah, that's what the question was.
2:13:43But the big idea that I was going to make is that, which I had thought about, because I had thought earlier, I thought with this week, I thought that
2:13:54It seems to me that it would be better if you would hold until Monday.
2:14:14In other words, not until tomorrow.
2:14:20Whatever you say, I don't know.
2:14:21Let me tell you why.
2:14:23I mean, I'd like to get your judgment on it.
2:14:25The reason I have that feeling is this, that, as you know, it's somewhat surprising to lots of people whether the Russians still act.
2:14:40They, you know, this...
2:14:44Yeah, he said that his visit to the president was known in Moscow.
2:15:02He said he was sitting here.
2:15:05He said that.
2:15:05So I don't know what that means, or did we just say something?
2:15:10The Polish message today is,
2:15:13Now, I am so suspicious of these people that I remember...
2:15:17I remember what the Greenland did to Kennedy's Cuban Missile Crisis, because he lighted his teeth.
2:15:26That's right.
2:15:27But on the other hand, they've got a creative mind and a bold mind, and maybe they just set this up.
2:15:34But we've got a position very, very low key here.
2:15:38Not one word.
2:15:40Kind of wasn't that kind of long.
2:15:57He came in for what was supposed to be a courtesy visit, and he literally talked for 45 minutes.
2:16:0245 minutes about every little thing about, you know, they'd already talked to this old Peterson change about, you know, and I said, what am I going to do about it?
2:16:14We should have agreed on that.
2:16:18We should have agreed on that.
2:16:20But I said to him, what he said to me was irrelevant.
2:16:23Because, you know, because he just repeated what he said.
2:16:25But anyway, then, and post-Peterson, as you know, we're keeping a very tight rein on Peterson.
2:16:37A very tight rein on us.
2:16:40We don't want to give this away.
2:16:41We must have in mind that if the Russians do turn hard, we sure as hell aren't going to have access to bank credits and all that sort of thing.
2:16:48Our favorite nation, we could never quote it.
2:16:51But we're not saying that.
2:16:53We're just doing it.
2:16:54The other thing is that I think that over the weekend,
2:17:04We could acknowledge it.
2:17:05Actually, the Russian response was not an official response yet, as I understand it.
2:17:11They have a deliberate push.
2:17:13It was an official response.
2:17:15It was the government.
2:17:17It was the government.
2:17:20It was them who handed it to us.
2:17:22Well, I think the question is whether we should give a quick and sort of noncommittal response, which we could do.
2:17:33In fact, they won't compare, which is good for any time.
2:17:37Or just delay.
2:17:38I think maybe a delay will make it look as if we were thinking of something.
2:17:42There isn't a hell of a lot to say, because their statement was fairly mild.
2:17:46Well, did you think it was?
2:17:49Yeah.
2:17:50All the people around here are telling stuff that was mild, too.
2:17:54What I think we ought to do, Mr. President, I'll have drafted and sent over to you responses which are quite appropriate.
2:18:02and decide how they should maybe just have Ron hand it out, or Bob McCluskey hand it out, or wait until later.
2:18:07Your view is that it should not be, they'll have it.
2:18:11It's the right level.
2:18:12Every, every has to be a new ship, because he said that would help.
2:18:15I can, I don't really say that.
2:18:16They didn't do it at their high level.
2:18:18Well, they just made an announcement.
2:18:21They opened an announcement, that's all.
2:18:23in a period of time.
2:18:25I think the thing is, if you were maybe having to work out the drill there, so what level and how I think we could wait until they hand it to us officially and then in a low-key way reply to it.
2:18:36I don't understand why they didn't hand it to us before they published it.
2:18:40I think, frankly, they're not eager for a reply.
2:18:43I don't think they want a long debate with us on it.
2:18:46You know, actually, I don't know.
2:18:48Do you think they may
2:18:49I mean, you just don't know.
2:18:50I mean, it's mild enough in one way.
2:18:53On the other hand, it would be perfectly good.
2:18:56John works in life.
2:18:58They're going to take some other actions.
2:19:01In other words, they can play both ways.
2:19:04They can.
2:19:05We'll soon know.
2:19:07I would say that's my guess, is that they...
2:19:11that they would consider it a rather risky business.
2:19:15I mean, in terms of their own interests to wait until, say, Tuesday or Wednesday of next week to cancel the summit.
2:19:24I think they're going to do it.
2:19:26I think they have to do it tomorrow or Saturday.
2:19:30Well, they could provoke something.
2:19:34They could send minesweepers down and challenge us, I suppose.
2:19:39be challenged, and then they could call it off.
2:19:41Or if we committed them to go ahead in the mine troopers, then it would look as if we'd back down.
2:19:45I think one of the things we've got to be sure about, and I spoke to Henry's wife earlier, if we're not going to answer, then I think we've got to get all our people to keep quiet, because it's going to be a hell of a temptation to say they blame today, this is a winter, or some silly thing like that.
2:20:00Don't come out here at all.
2:20:04There is a hell of a lot of leaking going on right now.
2:20:07I was saying to him, Bob, I've never seen it like that.
2:20:09I said, where the hell is it coming from?
2:20:11But God, the whole radio this morning is full of it, and it all says White House sources, too.
2:20:16There was NBC and CBS.
2:20:20Nobody here is talking to anybody.
2:20:23Well, I mean, you have.
2:20:24Where is this coming from?
2:20:26I have checked.
2:20:27No one in my office has talked to anybody.
2:20:30No, I don't know whether any of the public...
2:20:33relations people have, or whether they're just making it up.
2:20:36I don't know what the situation is.
2:20:38No one has any of that.
2:20:40David's working on that.
2:20:41Well, the whole point of this, the main thing is, is that obviously you've got to get Scali and all, and just anybody, I know everyone wants to say a thing, and I'll say, oh, you control all that.
2:20:55You see, you see, you see that, you see that.
2:20:57Well, that's a simple story to be okay with.
2:21:00uh you know it was going to very few people it was about as easy as we had after the nsc with john connie and all the details well we can we'll we will we'll handle that i mean as for people outside
2:21:23But I agree with Bill completely.
2:21:25We ought to all keep quiet now for a couple of days.
2:21:28I got my State Department bill.
2:21:30We had 20 meetings and everybody kept quiet.
2:21:32I'm going to go to Camp David so it's going to be on circulation.
2:21:45three specific things I'd like to talk about.
2:21:47I mean, one is the Security Council has turned off.
2:21:49That doesn't have a chance.
2:21:51It never did.
2:21:52And the Russians are against it, and the Chinese are against it.
2:21:54It doesn't make any sense to begin with.
2:21:58I think we shouldn't appear to be negative on it.
2:22:00I mean, we've got to make it clear that somebody else has turned it down.
2:22:06But I don't think you have to worry about that.
2:22:07It's even a possibility.
2:22:10On the incidence of sea negotiations,
2:22:13They've come to an impasse based on a Russian position that we've got to talk about fixed distances.
2:22:19This is something you decided some time back.
2:22:21The Defense Department has been against it for a few reasons that I don't think are very good.
2:22:25The Russians say that they're going to know by 6 o'clock whether we'll talk about it.
2:22:31My own recommendation is we ought to talk about it.
2:22:35We have our own... John Warner.
2:22:37Yeah.
2:22:38We have our own...
2:22:39It's really a matter of whether we have some limitations on how close we can come to their ships with our planes and how close we can come to their ships with our ships.
2:22:49Now, what we've suggested to the State Department is that we have at least some discussions about that and not have any limitations that are not already imposed by ourselves on ourselves.
2:23:00We have limitations.
2:23:02I don't like to...
2:23:04The problem is, this was looked at very carefully, and the problem with it is the intelligence people, for reasons which may or may not be good, are violently opposed to these, to fixed limitations, partly because of some penetrations of the waters which are in any event illegal, and I mean, and partly...
2:23:32They say .
2:23:33Anyway, my people say that that's exaggerated.
2:23:39First of all, I think we have rules ourselves that we don't permit our planes to fly closer than 300 feet to another ship.
2:23:46It's just dangerous as hell.
2:23:48And I thought it was that why not at least talk to them about the restrictions that we have on ourselves?
2:23:57Not by disclosing it, but well, if we don't have the
2:24:03Could we get, I mean, let's talk to them about it.
2:24:08The issue is really, if you talk to them about it, you've already given me that.
2:24:16Could we get a position within our government and get a paper to you which gives the arguments in a more systematic way, because I'm not in detail up on that, and I'm not sure what the bill is.
2:24:30Well, I think they'll agree to extend it 24 hours.
2:24:37I think they would if we'd say we let them know.
2:24:39If we tell them, we'll let them know by tomorrow.
2:24:42Let me see it so that I can speak.
2:24:43Because my main problem is going to be keeping the military happy, the military intelligence people, and so get me something so that I can say at least right there.
2:24:52I think that the Russians have a good point, because they say, well, we're not going to talk about it.
2:24:57What?
2:24:57There's no point of having a rule of reason.
2:25:01Hell, that's what we have now.
2:25:02Why not have some limitation, at least talk about how many feet we should separate from each other?
2:25:09All right, let's do that.
2:25:10And the other thing, really, the thing I'd like to talk to you about, Mr. President, is get your views on the possibility of negotiations in the future on Vietnam.
2:25:22Now that you've talked about Indochina so much, in all your statements, and particularly the last one,
2:25:30In other words, we talked about ceasefire all over China.
2:25:34Now, it really is more appropriate to, if you're going to have negotiations dealing with that subject, to bring in the others.
2:25:43Cambodia and Laos.
2:25:44Now, the British, as you know, have been very supportive.
2:25:48They've issued another good statement, and so did Trudeau, by the way.
2:25:51Trudeau did?
2:25:52Oh, yes.
2:25:53I know that came to your attention.
2:25:55And Belgium did, and we did.
2:25:58Even Malaysia has.
2:26:05But the question I think that is worth your consideration, and we don't have to decide it, but just think about it, is whether we should be actively attempting to find a formula for a Geneva-type convention, which is negotiated by Great Britain and Russia.
2:26:27This is what the British are being forced to do.
2:26:34Well, at some point, I'm not sure how you do it.
2:26:36If you decide to do it, we can talk about it later.
2:26:40But whether that's a good concept or not, instead of Paris, and particularly with the British being exactly as they are, it would include a Geneva-type conference.
2:26:53It would probably include the British, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, the United States.
2:27:00lost Cambodia and to Vietnam, something in that.
2:27:07I'm just thinking about the point.
2:27:15Now, the British have already proposed it.
2:27:16The Russians have resisted it.
2:27:19Although the last, Alec Hume just made his proposal to the Russian ambassador, who said he wanted to take it over.
2:27:27That discusses his government.
2:27:29The British are also talking to the Chinese about it.
2:27:34Now, I think that we don't have a problem publicly.
2:27:38I think the real problem is, is this something we would like to do, to accomplish?
2:27:44Is this a... Tell you what I'd like to do, I'd like to...
2:27:51I think a lot depends upon
2:28:01what does happen, and we should know that in three days, certainly on Russia land, if the Russian thing goes forward, then I think we might have a few things which tentatively might be under consideration.
2:28:20I just have a feeling that we should not move over the next three or four days in any of those directions.
2:28:29I think what I'd like to do
2:28:32we can is to keep it all, to keep a posture where we're taking a very strong position.
2:28:39We've made a very forthcoming offer for a negotiated settlement.
2:28:47And I would not try to spell it out too much at this point.
2:28:51Like they say, well, what is a ceasefire?
2:28:53Is it in place?
2:28:54Is it a withdrawal?
2:28:55And all the rest.
2:28:56And that's why it's so important that we're at this point getting into the conference business because
2:29:02I think they caught Mel on that a little bit.
2:29:05Yeah.
2:29:05Yeah.
2:29:06Well, anyway, what we want to do, I'd rather just eat them because that's going to be, if they do bite.
2:29:12Well, I wasn't really talking about making a public comment about it or anything of that kind.
2:29:15I'm really talking about it's a possibility even when you go to the Soviet Union.
2:29:19Of course, if there's something else that you're working on, you know it.
2:29:22No, I don't know.
2:29:23I don't even know where we're going.
2:29:25No, but I mean, anyway.
2:29:27It seems to me that this is something we ought to think about as a possibility for you to discuss, it seems to me.
2:29:36At the summit?
2:29:37Yeah, at the summit.
2:29:39Or it might be something that will come out of the summit.
2:29:43You see, the conference in 54 dealt, in a sense, with the same issues.
2:29:48It dealt with the issue of ceasefire.
2:29:51And they discussed the matter for four or five months, and then there was a ceasefire.
2:29:55And they had the problem of regrouping, and whether it would be in place or not, and that type of thing.
2:30:02Now, if we were looking for a device to gain some time, and somewhat a safe, face-saving device, strictly for the Russians, and you give a statement, because that does put them on the spot.
2:30:12If they do anything now, it's going to appear that they did it as a result of your strong stand, which probably, from their standpoint, looks as if there would be nothing down.
2:30:24if they're looking for some kind of a device to get a little time and still go ahead with the acceptance of your proposal, which is certainly fair, I don't know how anybody can expect you to do more, that the Geneva-type conference, not necessarily exactly that, but the Geneva-type conference makes some sense.
2:30:43Furthermore, the Paris negotiations as a forum are not very appropriate because Laos and Cambodia are not involved at all.
2:30:51So the Geneva-type conference, which included both Laos and Cambodia.
2:30:56And in a sense, it turned out pretty well, because they even permitted French troops to stay in Laos and Cambodia and South Vietnam.
2:31:04Small contingents, but still some troops.
2:31:07So that there are a lot of analogies which would be appropriate for this type of thing.
2:31:12And my suggestion really is that we think about it, not say anything about it, as far as
2:31:17The British will be asked about that.
2:31:18I'm sure they'll be asked, wouldn't they, about it?
2:31:20And then I just think we can say, well, the President's made it clear that he's prepared to take part in a conference, and he sets out a speech, and not get tied down to a section.
2:31:33I actually haven't given any thought to what you've got any reaction to.
2:31:37I said we'd like to look at any proposal.
2:31:41I think we ought to think about it.
2:31:42There's only one reason I'd like to give it a little thought.
2:31:47It's that the British have been damn good.
2:31:50It's a little different from 54, because the French, for example, now, at that time, they were invincible.
2:31:59Now they are sort of a negative, but it's real.
2:32:06I think we ought to study it.
2:32:09I think it's worth considering because we could let the British take the lead and talk to the French.
2:32:25If we proposed to the French, they'd be negative because they wouldn't have anything to do with this.
2:32:32But the British are quite
2:32:37You know, they couldn't have a better ally.
2:32:43And if we indicated to them that this was something that was desirable,
2:32:49I will say this.
2:32:49It certainly should indicate that we are not simply taking a negative approach on anything.
2:32:54When it started with that problem, it was the second that we had been down this negotiation.
2:32:58It was so long, and so long, that we were playing figures on what pessimistic about it.
2:33:05But we'd like to...
2:33:06I think we ought to look at it.
2:33:07I'll look at it.
2:33:09For sure.
2:33:09Can I raise another thing that's related to it that I'd like to hear you think about?
2:33:19Our supporters on the Hill are very anxious to see if they can't get something where they can vote for us.
2:33:38Now, as I understand, Bob, they said they'd have to wait for a month before they had the guidance.
2:33:48My immediate reaction is that I don't think you could get me to support it.
2:33:57It would not be down.
2:33:58You see, if they heard...
2:34:09First, it would be very easy to say, well, people in Hill want to support what I offer.
2:34:13Fine.
2:34:13But the real question is cutting off funds after four months.
2:34:16It's not a proposition.
2:34:18Now, to cut off the funds after four months, then you'd have to have in some kind of like offensive action or something like that.
2:34:31Because all those funds, I think, are very great to lean on.
2:34:35Well, that proposal, I don't think that's the problem with this proposal.
2:34:39The problem is whether we accept the principle of cutting off the funds.
2:34:43This proposal is exactly, the very proposal is exactly the one that you made, except it says that if this happens, if there's a ceasefire, and the prisoners are released, and we have a regard to it, that they're after.
2:34:56They'll find shelter.
2:34:58They'll find shelter.
2:34:59But that puts you in a position, potentially, of not being able to...
2:35:04take any defensive action after the ceasefire, after the troops are withdrawn, after the POWs are returned, and they resume?
2:35:14Well, let's go.
2:35:15They have said, at least they tell us, that they will
2:35:18I think we ought to play a very, very firm line with them through the weekend.
2:35:23I don't want to start on that now, because I think that we've hit a very heavy price.
2:35:35We now certainly have an RFE that's pretty well-shaped.
2:35:46I think that we have, that I think that we should not be moving away.
2:36:04in any perceptible way from the very strong position that I've taken on the negotiating side.
2:36:11If it appears that we are backing down on negotiations that I have, the problem that I have, say, with the funding, it would worry me.
2:36:18It would be the fact that I have the software.
2:36:20I can't believe it.
2:36:22You see what I mean?
2:36:27If you just leave it where we are, you know this caused a little trouble.
2:36:30He didn't say it publicly, but that four-month thing didn't go very good, too.
2:36:35But he took it, right?
2:36:38I wrote that in myself at the last moment.
2:36:40I said, I've got to put in four months.
2:36:43In fact, I almost did three months, but I just knew that would come around.
2:36:47We've gone through this every year with the legislative people, because once you go this way, then you're going to get congressmen coming in and going to
2:36:55improve what you start out with.
2:36:58What this proposal says, in effect, is let the president settle it, but we trust him so little that we're going to cut out his funds and deprive him of all options after four months.
2:37:08They can then break the ceasefire on the 120th birthday in an ambiguous way, and you'll be in the position of having to decide
2:37:18what you legislated with respect to, I think, particularly with regard, I think the most important thing now is the thing that you mentioned.
2:37:33The main thing about this is the main important truth.
2:37:35Now that we get across to Vietnam, we must do nothing, nothing for the purpose of getting the support of the farmers, nothing for the purpose of getting the support of the country, which in any way weakens our ability to make this win.
2:37:48If this, for example, has a bad morale effect in the South, the other piece, I would, I have the damn confidence to go against it.
2:37:56And I just stood up there.
2:37:57Well, I assume that's what I'm worried about.
2:37:58I don't know.
2:37:59I think we, well, I'm just trying to, I know that you're just, they'll all be talking to you.
2:38:03And I think if we could take the line, look, we made a very bad proposal here.
2:38:08And I don't think we could appoint a second president again on this.
2:38:14I have no difficulty with that.
2:38:17I think, just to be sure you understand, Stennis and Byrd, I'm not saying what Kennedy said.
2:38:21Stennis and Byrd are saying, we recognize that.
2:38:25We don't want to do it that way.
2:38:28We really want to say something that's totally consistent with what the president's done.
2:38:31We don't want to make it worded any way we want.
2:38:34Now, I agree with you.
2:38:35This is probably not the time even to talk about it.
2:38:38And I think we can argue .
2:38:39The only reason we don't have any option, because they're going to be talking about it starting tomorrow.
2:38:44The only reason my race, if we're being raised by case,
2:38:50Stennis and Bird are different, and I don't think we should be unreasonable with him.
2:38:57Stennis has been a hell of a good soldier, and he's, you know, he's having some... No, he doesn't want to do it.
2:39:05He's trying to get something that he can vote for, and he's trying to get something that's totally consistent with your position.
2:39:12And I think that what they have a feeling, I think, about is that they have a feeling that we are just kicking the teeth no matter what they do.
2:39:21The only text I've seen did have a punch cut out in it.
2:39:25Yes, but I mean... No, I mean the text, the supported text.
2:39:29No, no, the text which was brought to us
2:39:33as an elected supporter.
2:39:34That's not what the president wants to do.
2:39:37The one you've seen is a burden for us.
2:39:41I don't think we have to do it now.
2:39:44I don't agree with this, but one argument that's raised the other way is that you could have a unanimous vote
2:39:59in the Senate in favor of a resolution that laid out all the specifics of your thing and said, put in that it is the sense of the Senate so that it didn't make it legislation.
2:40:11or the sense of the Congress, that no funds shall be used for after 120 days after the President, after all that time.
2:40:19The argument for that would be the value to you of a unanimous Senate vote in support of the President's policy.
2:40:30I never got against it.
2:40:31It's worth being good.
2:40:32By getting the argument against is what it does with regard to
2:40:37I have one overriding concern, and that is coming all the way to Vietnam.
2:40:44I mean, that's all right against public opinion here, and public opinion here is a problem.
2:40:51But if anything erodes our ability to pull off the Vietnam thing,
2:40:58It's all about the children.
2:41:00The main thing is to keep that on the Senate.
2:41:03You've got congressional action one way or another.
2:41:05You can get the House Armed Services Committee now.
2:41:10If we have it, it's going to be anything.
2:41:12Another thing, Mr. President, is we've got to get funds for it.
2:41:16Well, I'm trying to find money.
2:41:17But we don't get the appropriations.
2:41:20If we don't get the funds, we don't have it.
2:41:27Well, anyway, we can certainly think this one over at the weekend.
2:41:32I do think that we've got to think very hard and long before the utility head makes tennis.
2:41:41Oh, absolutely.
2:41:43He's got to be very, like, center-serving because he's a key man.
2:41:46Well, I think it's a better topic.
2:41:49Well, I think it's a better topic.
2:41:54But I'd like to say that from what we're doing now on Monday, I think the best thing to do is to keep everybody just discredited in the speculation about the point of position, and to stay in that position.
2:42:09And I think it's going to be more of a talk by Bobby, and then by myself.
2:42:19He mentioned to spread some vote over the weekend.
2:42:21Do we have any other military action from the weekend that we missed?
2:42:30Oh, I just had to tell him about it.
2:42:31I meant it, but I'm sure it's about to be here.
2:42:33I don't think they're going to just continue to get the railroad through.
2:42:43That's, the actions now are limited to what you said, the railroad, the POL.
2:42:48We finished the, we finished the...
2:42:52The railroad, the plumbing seems to be fairly successful, if you know what I mean.
2:42:55I think so, yeah.
2:42:56But the other thing, the other action, I was very concerned about,
2:43:01B-52 strikes, which is 75 in the handlock area today, 75 in the contour area tomorrow, 75 in the next amount.
2:43:10And that's what I'm asking, who is going to shave it?
2:43:15Whether handlock can save the nose, contour the nose.
2:43:19I don't know whether the 21st Division, which is five miles away from these consoles, may not be so terrified by the people.
2:43:25That's it.
2:43:26That's why I say that.
2:43:27They will not agree.
2:43:27But anyway, what I meant is, no, we're not that.
2:43:29We actually see that we're over the hump insofar as actions that might irritate Russia or anybody else.
2:43:39We have a line.
2:43:42We are a line.
2:43:48if you're not getting any place like the... naturally in the dock areas, the ships are still there.
2:43:57But this gives the Air Force exactly what they need to be able to go.
2:44:00Now specifically, you're going to need to dock those damn railroads up and get the DOL on those two things.
2:44:08And this is one of the only other pilots that we can holler at.
2:44:14Is that right?
2:44:15Yes, there are no...
2:44:17Everything that's going to be hit has been discussed in West, and Alex knows about it.
2:44:22There's no increase, except for these B-52 strikes, which are the same.
2:44:35The main thing is, it seems to me that we must use the ultimate power at the time that we have the most support, because support erodes the time that it's on.
2:44:51And before it's on, somebody does come and stop.
2:44:56And also, because the psychological impact of the meetings will be in all our favor if they think that maybe
2:45:04What do you think about, on Monday, putting the V on the Congress for endangering the summit in case they take some action?
2:45:13That's not a bad thing to say.
2:45:14Look, why don't you lay off now?
2:45:16Everything seems to be moving along all right.
2:45:19If Congress acts.
2:45:21Adversely, it may have some effect, but not nothing.
2:45:23It really goes to you.
2:45:24Well, I think you could say, you know, the way I think of it, you know, what it says, you could put it rather in a general sense.
2:45:33You could say the President is not in charge of everything.
2:45:39You know, we are a decent country.
2:45:40We've been, you know, we've been breaking our backs negotiating with the sovereign government.
2:45:46Negotiating, this is the course we've pursued.
2:45:51We prefer.
2:45:52But the Senate must think very, very carefully, or the Congress, before taking any action which undercuts the president's ability to negotiate.
2:46:02We're willing to negotiate.
2:46:03And whenever the Congress acts, all it does is an incentive for them to not negotiate.
2:46:14Well, that's it.
2:46:15I would say a couple things to sign.
2:46:22To sign?
2:46:23Yeah.
2:46:25What's that one?
2:46:29What?
2:46:50And that Geneva summit conference was just so lovely that I received a hand from the British branch of Cambodian countries that had no interest or knowledge in Russian, Chinese banking.
2:47:00Oh, no, you handled it perfectly right.
2:47:01The thing about this, I told Bob to raise it, but I thought I'd already raised the bill.
2:47:07I was sure, so I'm guessing that people are already worried about him.
2:47:16Let me say it.
2:47:18My reaction at the present time is that I want you to think about the problem at the Senate.
2:47:25Do you understand that?
2:47:25I think I will, Senator.
2:47:26I want you to talk about the issues you have now.
2:47:29What I do is that, by God, I have told Bob, and I, and him, and I, they go with it, they write it in court, and we must rely, even at the cost of public support for this country, even at the cost of Senate support, congressional support, which undercuts our firm, strong, if you want to describe it, ferocious... Mr. President, you've shaken, for example, all the newsmen at their teeth, practically dropping out of their mouths with the Russian side.
2:47:57Next week,
2:47:58You, every day, are more visibly preparing for this summit.
2:48:02Who in God's name is going to pass a resolution?
2:48:08I can't believe it.
2:48:11Well, but the thing is, I would, next week, I would hardline it because you've got ten days while you are in Moscow.
2:48:23Hanoi must be shaking to its...
2:48:26to its core.
2:48:27I mean, here they are on the morning that the mines activate.
2:48:32Three hours after the mines activate, the Russian foreign trade minister comes to the White House, and I don't know whether you know what he said to the NBC News.
2:48:40They captured him in front of the Soviet embassy, and they said, did you discuss the summit?
2:48:48He said, why should I have?
2:48:49He said, well, is the summit still on?
2:48:53He said, was there any question about it?
2:48:56He said, well, they said to him, well, what about it?
2:49:02He said, the only ones that seem to have any questions about it is you.
2:49:05I have one.
2:49:07Really?
2:49:07Yeah.
2:49:08It's on all the tickets.
2:49:10That's great.
2:49:11That's great.
2:49:14Jerry Schechter said, you guys had this all worked out ahead of time.
2:49:20And...
2:49:22And, uh, so...
2:49:24They can still say this.
2:49:26They can still say this.
2:49:27Well, I thought the bill was quite about the brilliant mind of the Kennedys.
2:49:31Mr. President, first of all, I'm not sure that... Mr. President is perfectly capable of lying.
2:49:35Oh, sir, so am I.
2:49:37And he is perfectly de-questioning if they want to cancel the summit.
2:49:41Now, you can say that the German treaty prevents them from canceling the summit.
2:49:45If that's so, they can't cancel it before the 19th.
2:49:48No.
2:49:49Now, then, supposing they cancel you on the 20th while you're on the way, what have they then gained by it?
2:50:00I think that all American people, if you then turn around and come back and turn on them, you have everybody with you.
2:50:06It's one thing if they had turned on you this week, they could say, be it now.
2:50:12But next week, when you have done nothing in addition, when you can tell them you've given them these assurances, they've received it all,
2:50:18We went ahead preparing it.
2:50:20For them to flush their whole policy down the drain and make you a hero in the process is almost inconceivable to me.
2:50:28This week, they had a good possibility of doing it.
2:50:32Next week, they would pay an additional price, which is a burden.
2:50:37Moreover, if I...
2:50:44If they haven't canceled it by Monday...
2:50:47And I don't see how they can now cancel it before Monday because we've got the Brezhnev answer, which is a very...
2:50:55He read it.
2:50:56He doesn't know that.
2:50:58No, he doesn't even know there was a letter.
2:51:01So we've got the Brezhnev answer.
2:51:04It's mine.
2:51:05I've worked out with Sabrina three principles which she's accepted.
2:51:09We won't do anything other than what we're already doing.
2:51:12We won't attack Soviet ships.
2:51:15We won't attack Soviet ships.
2:51:17and we won't interfere with Soviet force, and we won't interfere with Soviet ships on the high seas.
2:51:22I said to Sabrina, this letter can be interpreted in two ways, that we can't do anything, that we have to stop what we are doing, or that we shouldn't do anything efficient.
2:51:33The first we can do, the second we can do.
2:51:36He said, interpret it the second way.
2:51:38Now, this is a record of total treachery if they
2:51:44And also being totally treacherous of me is a hell of a lot more dangerous than being totally treacherous of Kennedy.
2:51:50Yes, but what's in it for them, Mr. President?
2:51:52In the case of Kennedy, they were sneaking missiles into Cuba.
2:51:56In this case, they're just cutting off the summit.
2:51:58And what do they gain by waiting for a day?
2:52:00Well, you can say they're gaining the German treaty.
2:52:03In the German treaty, they could get into a war thing of wanting to go to the maximum humiliation of the President, which would be to cut him off while he isn't rude.
2:52:14But I think it would help, but that would, if on Wednesday morning the Russians had put out a statement saying we were preparing good faith for the sun, the Vietnamese people are an oppressed people, the Americans are bombing it and we will not receive the raper of America, of Vietnamese, you know.
2:52:33They haven't done that.
2:52:34They have not started a press campaign against you, no meetings of indignation.
2:52:40So that's the other thing you knew was going to happen.
2:52:42It was a great stir.
2:52:43They have stirred up demonstrations in this country.
2:52:46Sure.
2:52:46You'd expect them to do that.
2:52:49Oh, no, you'd expect them to.
2:52:50But they haven't been terribly effective in doing that, and that must have registered on them, too.
2:52:57I mean, that must be an attempt to see whether they could do it.
2:53:01But they haven't done a big thing in Russia.
2:53:03They haven't attacked you in their press.
2:53:07And in other words...
2:53:08They've been in very low gear.
2:53:11Now, you know I expected them to cancel the summit, so I'm not...
2:53:16But I expected them to do it in direct relation to your action.
2:53:21Is it that way?
2:53:21Can I ask this?
2:53:23What in the hell is this institute who you think has... Bill refers to the police, but I didn't read the papers this morning.
2:53:29Well, the story that bothers him the most is the Semple story, and that leak was common.
2:53:33That had to be common.
2:53:35But I'm not going to tell whether or not there's any.
2:53:38I don't think we should tell Russia.
2:53:40I think it's better for them to think someone in the White House did it.
2:53:43Yeah.
2:53:43Then there was the Marvin Cowell.
2:53:45That's the other thing that he's obsessed with, is the Marvin Cowell story.
2:53:48Nobody in the White House wants to tell where they fired.
2:53:52It says White House sources, and I can't imagine that that was State Department using White House, setting White House.
2:53:58It has to be, Mr. President.
2:54:00Nobody here talks about it.
2:54:01Nobody here talks about it.
2:54:02Everybody over there does.
2:54:04He never comes over here, either.
2:54:06Well, there's the Cowell line.
2:54:09Oh, that the Russians, that the White House glumly expects the Russians to cancel the summit and sees that there's no alternative for the Russians but to cancel the summit.
2:54:19Now, that was yesterday evening.
2:54:22Now, any of us who knew anything in the White House yesterday, we're beginning to be very optimistic.
2:54:27Incidentally, are you really sure in this instance that none of our side of the press times are going to come for the best of anything?
2:54:36I'm pretty sure because if they had, they wouldn't have taken that line, they would have taken the other line.
2:54:41Nobody should ever take the line around here.
2:54:44But that's it, they weren't.
2:54:46Everything we were pumping out was the other way.
2:54:48I don't believe anybody talked to them, but if anybody had, then I can't believe they would have given it that line, they would have given the opposite.
2:54:56Our line was, we are preparing for the summit.
2:54:59It's up to them to see whether they want to cancel it.
2:55:02We see no reason to cancel it.
2:55:04We said low-key.
2:55:05We told them not to say anything about the summit, except the specific line that we told Ron to say, which was we're going ahead with preparations and to refuse to go beyond that.
2:55:17It is not inconceivable, Mr. President, that next Friday they're going to
2:55:22cancel the summit but it would be such a mean eddy move uh so inconsistent another thing that breeden said is he said you asked he said of course you didn't ask us the question so we so no reason to give you the answer i said well i'm not a little bit glad to ask you the question he said no why make us make a formal decision in response you have said publicly you're continuing your preparation for the summit our leaders know you have said this
2:55:52Our leaders haven't cancelled it.
2:55:54Why, that's the issue.
2:55:55And I think that's right.
2:55:57And their guys, they're sure at the bureaucratic level they're going ahead because our advance, we have, you know, the advance team in Moscow.
2:56:04They've been there for a week.
2:56:06They're going over every kind of language.
2:56:08They're arguing about where the car can drive and going through what rooms are going to be assigned to who and where the... Our switchboard is set up.
2:56:16We've got to complete it.
2:56:17You've got a hotline right now on the White House board in Moscow.
2:56:20I can get it then faster than I get in my office.
2:56:22It's conceivable that they'll cancel you on Monday.
2:56:27I would say after Monday the chances go from 70% by 5% to 10% every day.
2:56:36So anyway, we don't have to worry about it.
2:56:38In the meantime, the strategy over the weekend, for everybody to pipe down, we can.
2:56:41Yeah.
2:56:41And you, uh, it's about a year.
2:56:43You can go over and, uh... You've got to have your tell them to comment on the other matter.
2:56:54Do that, John.
2:56:55Okay.
2:56:58I just sort of had my problems.
2:57:01And I think in the meantime, all of you and Henry, if you could pull in on everybody here, I would only suggest that, so that the congressional people know that Henry took the time to march and spent some time with Stennis.
2:57:14I'll call Stennis.
2:57:15I'll talk to him.
2:57:16I'll meet him.
2:57:16And just say, and say, Senator, let me just tell you right now, there's a lot going on.
2:57:19It would be terribly helpful if you could just pipe it down.
2:57:25to dance this idea, though, of Congress wanting to play a part and a role.
2:57:31God damn it to hell, why don't we support the president once?
2:57:35That's their excuse for cutting us out.
2:57:38They don't want to support us.
2:57:39Every time, all the leaders who say they want to support us, that's what Frank Church says he wants to do.
2:57:46Share responsibility with you.
2:57:50They help you in one of two conditions.
2:57:52It's either when they think you're down,
2:57:55or when they think you might be doing so well that they want to get some of the credit.
2:57:59And right now they don't know which of the two is right.
2:58:03They know it's one or the other.
2:58:05They know there's going to be a fiat show or a success.
2:58:07They know it isn't going to be in Madrid.
2:58:11But the main thing right now is we're not going to do anything in any way of discounts, downgrades,
2:58:24reduces the enormous threat that hangs over North Vietnam right now.
2:58:31Absolutely.
2:58:32That is the key to this whole thing.
2:58:34That's why we can't... And really... That's why you don't want any more talk, I would think, about the peace operation elsewhere.
2:58:42And Mr. President, if the bloody thing collapses now in South Vietnam, you have done... You can get out of there from a position of strength.
2:58:51But I don't think it's going to collapse.
2:58:52I think what's going to happen now is that there is as good a chance that the North Vietnamese will collapse in the South as there is of the South Vietnamese collapsing.
2:59:03How will they reform when they're collapsing?
2:59:06Well, for example, today they captured a regimental commander in Nha An Loc.
2:59:10That has never happened.
2:59:13Yeah, a North Vietnamese regimental commander.
2:59:18Thank you.
2:59:19that they're taking him to Saigon to have a discussion with him.
2:59:23Actually, I think he's going to have a very happy weekend, isn't he?
2:59:28Like the Godfather, we had a gang with him.
2:59:30The gang, the father always said, they'd say, how are you going to do this with him?
2:59:35And he made some weird, some outrageous proposition.
2:59:39He says, we're making him a proposition he will not be able to refuse.
2:59:42I think the proposition he made was, we can't refuse.
2:59:47Anyway, don't.
2:59:50Oh, I think, Mr. President.
2:59:52Do you want to get out on some stuff?
2:59:55I think, well, I'm going to sign it out now, sir.
2:59:59You got a point?
3:00:01I think we're basically almost over the top.
3:00:05I'll say that minister is, if he's wrong, he certainly doesn't look like an answer.
3:00:10Mr. President, Mr. President, Mr. Minister, I'm never going to say it on the list.
3:00:16Yeah, but he said it's NBC.
3:00:25That's even worse, because he's on the public record with that.
3:00:37There's no publication in Moscow.

Nixon, Rogers & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Soviet Summit

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