Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 725-010
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 1972 at 8:14 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haig, Alexander M., Jr.; Lukash, William M.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/725-010

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[19:02] He was a member of the Young Democrats.
[19:03] Young Democrats in Wisconsin.
[19:10] We're not balls to the Democrats.
[19:11] No, indeed.
[19:11] No, indeed.
[19:12] He's turned crazy to us.
[19:15] Yeah, he must be in there.
[19:18] I'm not... Well, we've glamorized this nonsense of these damn... You know, a guy like McCarthy go out there and tell those people to build their barricades and... Well, listen, Humphrey and my doctor have been saying horrible things about Wallace Externum.
[19:33] As a matter of fact, what the hell, they did just even worse to me, called him a murderer, and it's nothing of any...
[19:43] I don't think they're coming out.
[19:45] saying he would have used the boys, the muskies, 50,000 Vietnamese that had been killed in the order.
[20:00] Oh.
[20:01] What's the situation abroad?
[20:02] It's fine.
[20:03] Well, things are very, very quiet.
[20:05] They've continued operations east of, or west of Hue.
[20:07] Why isn't the press, I mean, the poster here says the crew will fly?
[20:16] They're very important.
[20:23] They killed 80 yesterday.
[20:25] Oh, absolutely.
[20:30] Got an ammunition dump in there in the Bastogne area.
[20:34] Did they?
[20:35] Yes, sir.
[20:37] No, they captured it.
[20:38] They discovered 10 tons of 82 millimeter.
[20:42] That's the stuff that would have been porting on Kill Lady, the enemy there.
[20:49] Good.
[20:49] I think they're doing exceptionally well.
[20:53] We had an aircraft team at Fire Support Base Nancy, which is just north of Bastogne.
[21:01] And they killed 30 enemy.
[21:04] Mortar positions were knocked down, bunkers.
[21:07] Military Region 2, they're still repelling these attacks.
[21:12] They got 74 tanks in the last 24 hours.
[21:14] Seven more.
[21:15] Seven more than 70 in a day.
[21:18] Yes, sir.
[21:19] Those tank counts are probably accurate or whatever.
[21:22] Well, sometimes they can double count.
[21:25] Yes, sir.
[21:25] Sometimes they can double count them, but one was...
[21:28] They're close.
[21:29] These new tows that they put in there about a week ago are really nothing these tanks have.
[21:36] They're both.
[21:36] They put some in the Cobra gunships and some on Jeeps.
[21:40] What do they do?
[21:42] It's a big guided...
[21:45] Guided rocket gun.
[21:45] What does it do?
[21:46] Just go right out of the tank?
[21:49] Yes, sir.
[21:49] It locks a big hole in them.
[21:51] And then they spew all the metal from the inside.
[21:54] Oh, I didn't forget.
[21:57] Oh, I didn't think so.
[21:59] Yes, sir.
[22:00] No, these guys are leaving the tanks.
[22:02] This is what they found in there.
[22:04] They're leaving the tank, then?
[22:07] Yes, sir.
[22:07] I mean, this is a pretty frightening business, isn't it?
[22:10] Well, if you don't fight them right, they're death traps.
[22:12] That's all they are.
[22:14] They have to be handled properly.
[22:16] The whole answer to them is to keep them masked and sudden movement.
[22:26] You have to keep infantry around them.
[22:30] How often is the situation there?
[22:32] It's not the third day.
[22:33] Oh, it's well into the fourth, sir, and the attacks have dropped off.
[22:37] Force from the staff is still moving towards it.
[22:40] They're going in and making fast progress, but they're continuing.
[22:44] They're about seven kilometers south of the perimeter.
[22:52] That looks very good.
[22:52] They got two tanks in there yesterday.
[22:57] The airstrikes are still about 1,000 level.
[23:00] Yes, sir.
[23:01] We're still keeping those airstrikes up.
[23:03] Great.
[23:07] I'm sure they had 1,000 yesterday.
[23:12] That 73 Arkwright's VNAF had 270, which is very high for them.
[23:17] And we had 627.
[23:19] Now, in North Vietnam, we didn't get around to noise because of the weather.
[23:35] Yeah.
[23:36] Yeah, what is the, uh, the bill this morning that, uh, for guard walls?
[24:26] Paralysis.
[24:28] That's after the test, right?
[24:35] I mean, yeah.
[24:36] As far as condition, he's on the plus side.
[24:38] He's expected to live, right?
[24:39] Yeah.
[24:39] He's not losing blood or anything like that, sir.
[24:54] But the possibility of paralysis is more than 50%, I would say.
[25:06] I see.
[25:07] But what is the recovery progress?
[25:11] No, no, no, no, no, no.
[25:16] How long before he can dispose at the very best?
[25:19] Is he going to be out one month, two months?
[25:46] In other words, does that mean that he just can't go out and campaign and that sort of thing?
[25:51] Yeah.
[25:52] See, that's the question that they'll all be asking around here.
[25:56] Not that we're going to quote your name, but I just want her to know for ourselves, our voice, just know what the hell's going on.
[26:04] It's bad.
[26:04] It's bad, man.
[26:05] Yeah.
[26:05] Yeah.
[26:23] All right.
[26:24] Would you talk to his wife and any of the Wallace family that are there today?
[26:31] And also, let it run out to the press there.
[26:35] I called at 8 o'clock this morning, too, as well as I did on that call at midnight last night, you can say, too.
[26:42] Because I didn't call you, but I called her when he talked to her.
[26:49] I don't know who you talked to last night.
[26:50] I called at 11 or 11.30 so that I called.
[26:52] You can say to the president.
[26:56] Yeah, tell them at 11 o'clock, press the callback sign.
[26:59] We've got a report in the call this morning.
[27:01] He's very pleased to hear that his condition is improving and that he's very much okay.
[27:10] Oh, how's it going?
[27:17] Yeah.
[27:18] Yeah?
[27:19] They all like it, don't they?
[27:22] Yeah.
[27:23] Yes, we're going to send him, you can tell him that he and Pena, I mean, the rush trip not coming off.
[27:30] They can take off Saturday morning for Key Biscayne next day.
[27:33] They're there two weeks.
[27:35] And then he could go out there and send his crutches and fish.
[27:45] Right.
[27:46] Yep.
[27:46] Well, yeah, there's one on the island.
[27:49] I mean, you've got the surgeon and then check for Bozo, you know, maybe your Bozo as to who the doctor is, if he needs one day to help him with anything.
[27:59] Because they're, they're, yeah, well, they're, they're good men down there and they all love him.
[28:06] And so, and we want him to have a nice vacation anyway.
[28:08] So you, you go ahead and call him this morning and figure, are you out helping?
[28:13] Where, is it out of his walls?
[28:14] Still at which hospital?
[28:17] Does he want to move to Bethesda, Michigan, or what?
[28:28] All right.
[28:31] Yeah.
[28:33] Yeah.
[28:34] Well, I'll tell you what to do.
[28:36] If you could do this, you'd tell Mr. Wallace this morning the president called and offered the president's suite at...
[28:45] But does he like to have it?
[28:46] See, I'm not going to use the damn thing.
[28:49] You understand?
[28:50] So would you do that?
[28:52] I think it would be a nice touch.
[28:58] Yeah, he's doing all right.
[29:02] Yeah.
[29:13] Yes, yes, follow me.
[29:15] You say I heard it.
[29:16] Fine, fine.
[29:18] But you be sure the walls know that I've walked through the presidential suite.
[29:24] And you can let it put out up there.
[29:28] Okay.
[29:37] What's happening here is it's just, it causes a, it could be a long re-grooming, but it may be for at least close to that.
[29:45] I think it's a little bit of both.
[29:48] I think it's a little bit of both.
[29:53] I think it's a little bit of both.
[30:10] You're right.
[30:12] You get my point.
[30:12] Yes, sir.
[30:13] I do.
[30:13] That's all I understand.
[30:15] It is a strong country, and they'll deal with you realistically.
[30:21] They figured, well, by God, I'm a kind of strong man.
[30:27] We didn't put him on a spot.
[30:28] We said, all right.
[30:30] The way we got that speech working was pretty subtle.
[30:33] Yes, sir.
[30:34] Our bowling people have been in the People's Republic.
[30:36] They just got back yesterday.
[30:38] They reported.
[30:40] They were there doing all during this thing.
[30:42] They reported being treated warmer than they could ever have conceived of.
[30:48] Now, this is just...
[30:51] I just think we've got these guys, I don't think we're... Well, basically they have to choose.
[30:56] They either have to start treating us with respect, or they have to start kicking us around if they kick us around.
[31:03] I think another thing, they're probably thinking, I am nuts, because our American press is probably the best amongst what you think.
[31:11] I mean, how do they start something?
[31:13] How do they start something with that?
[31:15] Don't you think that's true?
[31:16] I think it's true, but I don't think to them that is nuts.
[31:19] To them that's tough.
[31:23] Hell, that's the way they operate.
[31:27] They didn't, they didn't fool around in Czechoslovakia or any place else.
[31:31] I'm hungry.
[31:32] I'm hungry.
[31:35] No, I think they probably have been wondering.
[31:37] Of course, we had, we had, we couldn't have done this three years ago.
[31:44] The local TV last night said that they started
[31:49] an assessment of popular opinion.
[31:50] In the first days, the results were overwhelmingly in favor of the action.
[31:53] This is in the District of Washington of the Negroes.
[31:56] You mean here in the U.S.?
[31:57] Yes, in Washington, a local TV station.
[32:00] And you get it in this area.
[32:01] Oh, you saw the Harris Bowl.
[32:06] Yeah, sure.
[32:06] The bowls were all over.
[32:07] Two to one are better than some of the other ones.
[32:17] The main thing is it won't grow if the battle moves.
[32:22] Keep the heat on and keep them moving.
[32:24] The POW heroes got good play yesterday.
[32:27] The POW heroes got great play.
[32:28] Yeah, great.
[32:29] Tell me this.
[32:30] That Saratoga got some play.
[32:32] I told you.
[32:37] Well, they got the carrier one, the new carrier out this morning.
[32:41] It's on the news this morning.
[32:43] It's on the news.
[32:43] So we sent a new carrier.
[32:45] What is it?
[32:46] What's the name of it?
[32:50] It's a, it's an ASW carrier.
[32:52] But it was announced this morning.
[32:55] I bugged them last night and they got it out.
[32:59] The scribings have not been announced yet.
[33:02] We'll get those out as soon as possible.
[33:04] That's the thing is, everyone's been notified, the orders are out.
[33:10] It's going to have to get the men notified and ready to move before they go public on it.
[33:21] It causes family turmoil.
[33:22] But that's... Be sure to be sure we hit her on the north sometimes.
[33:25] In other words, we all want to let her say, hang on, we want to screw up inside.
[33:29] And so the rest of the time, we told them that...
[33:33] Well, they just shifted the Hanoi strikes last night over to the Bankeri Pass area, which is where a lot of the stuff has been coming through.
[33:43] Do you think they got some stuff over there?
[33:45] Yes, sir.
[33:45] They got PRL.
[33:46] They got trucks.
[33:48] They got freed missile sites.
[33:51] And the missile firing has dropped off.
[33:56] I think they're going to be on their knees very quickly.
[34:00] There is no other and no alternative now.
[34:06] Don't, you see, they are going to come, that, that, and we're going to be strong by ourselves if we breathe.
[34:14] Well, they came in publicly in Paris, and we're very strong.
[34:16] All right.
[34:17] For another, another exception.
[34:19] They had another exception.
[34:21] Don't take it, and I'll be free.
[34:29] Oh, I think that would be the worst thing you could do.
[34:33] I think the way we got this postured is just right.
[34:36] It keeps the soviets quiet.
[34:38] They don't get what they want in the plenary.
[34:41] Well, the plenary is just no soviet entry.
[34:43] We'll go over to Salisbury.
[34:46] And they probably won't be able to arrange it anyhow, but it's prevented us from having a print.
[34:51] We don't want to have any damn meeting before we go there.
[34:54] We've got to keep the heat on while we're in the soviets.
[34:57] Absolutely.
[34:57] We don't want any soviets here at this point.
[35:01] They wouldn't negotiate with us, and I thought they had us on the run.
[35:04] We aren't going to negotiate with them.
[35:05] We think we've got them on the run, or they may be hurting.
[35:08] Do you understand?
[35:11] It's just the other way around.
[35:12] We want to negotiate before.
[35:14] Now they want to negotiate, right?
[35:16] Screw them.
[35:18] That's the best thing that we can do is to take our time and keep coordinating them and destroy their troops and destroy their supplies and equipment.
[35:28] put their country in a position where it's going to take them some time to get them back in shape.
[35:31] I hope you get some power from this.
[35:40] You know, it's a foley with me because I want that son of a bitch, Tony Lewis, to have his lights cut off and can't use his electric rages with a few other people.
[35:48] Would you mind doing that for me?
[35:49] I hope you're looking at it.
[35:51] I've asked Henry about it every time.
[35:52] He comes in and lies to me and says, well, you get a woman down in Dong Hall in the sky
[36:00] The main one is right here.
[36:01] That's the problem.
[36:03] The chairman wanted to hit it two days ago.
[36:09] It's just a bad place to hit it.
[36:11] We'll hit it as soon as it's over.
[36:15] I don't know if we're going to knock that power plant out.
[36:19] We'll see.
[36:26] They had one north of the city.
[36:29] They did one at the port.
[36:36] And they also got their main control center for any aircraft for their whole air defense system.
[36:43] Boy, they just clambered it into an underground.
[36:46] It's like our Colorado Springs headquarters.
[36:51] Yes, sir.
[36:51] They got the photographs that they just clambered the hell out of it.
[36:57] Well, that's pretty decisive.
[36:59] It affects their ability to control the meds and missiles.
[37:03] Now, Donald, as I said, there should be no minor recession, not before we go to Moscow.
[37:11] They're bringing Porter back, so we'd be damn sure we have that guy under control.
[37:14] He's a pretty active cookie.
[37:18] And he likes to do that.
[37:20] He's coming back today, and we're going to tell him exactly how to play it between now and the time that summit's over.
[37:27] So that he better be ready to go out there and then just make statements.
[37:29] That's right.
[37:30] We don't want any ad libbing from us.
[37:33] Because we have made that proposition where they got accepted, you know, constantly.
[37:39] You know, the fact we gave them all the mail.
[37:41] We said, do something about you.
[37:43] I'm going to keep this.
[37:44] And they said, no.
[37:44] We can't bargain from that now.
[37:46] That's our last offer.
[37:47] Often not the first.
[37:47] People don't realize.
[37:49] You understand that at all?
[37:50] Sure.
[37:50] That's a last offer, not the first.
[37:53] Well, that's what we have to be careful of.
[37:55] We...
[37:57] We've talked about our POWs and that stuff stays in there.
[38:00] We've talked about a ceasefire.
[38:03] Guess we won't take our time right now implementing that.
[38:08] If they were to ask for it tomorrow, we would drag our feet a little bit.
[38:14] We'll do anything you want to tell me.
[38:45] Thank you.
[39:49] As you know, he put everything on the line on Monday.
[39:54] He got me an all-sign, a promotion.
[39:55] It won't work.
[39:57] I'll hear what you do.
[39:59] You and then I see me in the day.
[40:06] Good, sir.
[40:07] You heard Rodney.
[40:07] Larry's a good student.
[40:09] Lock yourself on for a little work.
[40:11] Well, I understand that sort of thing.
[40:13] I mean, everybody wants to protect his flags, but when you finally come down to it, nobody who really had to think it through faced the alternative.
[40:23] That is, maybe this won't work.
[40:27] But if we didn't do something, we were sure, or virtually sure, that what we were doing wouldn't work.
[40:36] Right?
[40:37] When you saw those snakes cawing, like, they were sending something to kill or retrieve the Indian.
[40:45] The Senate was out barking in their heels.
[40:48] And the Markham Assault Vietnam was going down.
[40:50] The snakes probably slept with them.
[40:53] I think it's the best thing that could have been done.
[41:00] No matter how you slice it, even if it didn't work, we were better off as a result of having done it.
[41:17] First of all, this is not a guerrilla war.
[41:20] This is a man-made war.
[41:22] It means oil.
[41:24] Second, there are several different things.
[41:28] We have cut off Cambodia completely.
[41:31] We have cut off supplies from sea in North Vietnam completely.
[41:37] And third, we are concentrating on the rail lines and on P.O.L.
[41:42] as we've never concentrated before.
[41:44] And it's a hell of a different thing for these people.
[41:48] I'm sure it'll work, yes, sir.
[41:49] You support it?
[41:50] It's going to work.
[41:52] You're going to be on the lead.
[41:54] Why is it we're not losing any people?
[41:58] No.
[41:59] So I don't want that kind of attitude.
[42:04] No.
[42:04] Well, if there's anything they can get up there, if we could put 18 B-52s, not in the air, on somewhere under 20 or 25.
[42:16] I think they broke out two, three attacks now in B-52.
[42:22] They are so critical.
[42:23] All right.
[42:24] But after that.
[42:28] We break the back here in the south, and I got a few of them up north on this.
[42:34] And there are places that they can be used in these truck parks that are out away, but he really needs them where they are, and I think they're doing the best thing they can do at the moment.
[43:39] It wouldn't have been done at all unless we had, I think, done all the things we've done.
[43:43] I mean, I don't think we've been perfect, but Cambodia, I know, was totally essential.
[43:50] Laos helped.
[43:51] Don't you agree?
[43:51] Yes, sir.
[43:54] It wasn't successful, totally, but it was half successful and helped.
[43:57] It helped.
[44:03] The other thing was, but this thing was critical.
[44:08] This had begun, and it has to be, it has to continue.
[44:13] And I'm just convinced that this is the right thing in every sense.
[44:20] It's right in terms of Hanoi and Peking, or Moscow and Peking is right in terms of Hanoi.
[44:26] did the right thing in South Vietnam.
[44:27] The L.M.R.L.
[44:28] has been resuming ever since.
[44:29] They've been attacking ever since.
[44:30] I could see from the discussions of Q that he's in an entirely different frame of mind.
[44:36] And of course, the frame of mind of the commander reflected the frame of mind of his subordinates, and Truman could not.
[44:52] And even today, Olan Dole, who's up to his ass in alligators,
[44:56] The man that the North Vietnamese pull out, he said, you're defeated now.
[44:59] U.S. actions.
[44:59] Oh, yeah.
[45:02] He was in trouble.
[45:04] Yeah, but I mean, the divisions that were whacking him are now whacking North and South.
[45:16] They are, but...
[45:17] He's got political problems.
[45:19] Oh, yeah, right.
[45:21] How about Laos?
[45:23] Laos is, the pressure's all off.
[45:25] They're pushing, pushing forward there, and the enemy's pulling out.
[45:29] They've pulled that one division out.
[45:32] The other one's pulled back.
[45:35] So they're very encouraged.
[45:37] No, I think, kind of quickly, just...
[45:42] I think they're going to be at their weakest position come the end of June.
[45:45] You think?
[45:45] I think so, too.
[45:46] I think it's going to come quicker.
[45:48] Well, I don't know.
[45:49] We always thought they thought we were over 200.
[45:56] I'm talking 44, and it didn't.
[46:02] But this is a different thing.
[46:05] These people do not have the resources, the Germans, right?
[46:09] The government has the resources.
[46:12] And by God, with the pressure we're putting on them, and with the Chinese and the Russians still talking to us, it's probably going to have a psychological effect, don't you think?
[46:20] I'm not so sure that they're going to ask the Soviets to help them negotiate out of this.
[46:26] You're not so sure what they are?
[46:27] I don't think that they might have to do that.
[46:31] Because they don't want to lose them when they're strong, but when they're weak, this is a different situation.
[46:38] Well, they want to build up equity for the future.
[46:42] They'll want to come back and fight again.
[46:46] They fight again, they'll find a different South Vietnam to the South Vietnamese can learn to fight.
[46:52] This battle, this thing is helping them to learn.
[46:59] They have to fight.
[47:00] They have to know they can do it.
[47:01] This is from the field.
[47:03] These people, Cambodia, were really raised here.
[47:08] That's right.
[47:10] But I think Laos hurts them.
[47:11] Laos, they, despite our attempts to say, well, they did well, they thought they had gotten their asses kicked off, didn't they?
[47:20] There's a few of these little things still on.
[47:23] They're going to think they didn't do it.
[47:26] And we are not eight feet tall.
[47:29] Like I know.
[47:29] In fact, they're performing very poorly in most of the area.
[47:32] Now incidentally, you say it's impossible to have any kind of a tank structure.
[47:38] Is that correct?
[47:39] Do you want us to have a close look at that?
[47:44] It is, in a massive sense, because the tanks are spread out on the islands and free-floor.
[47:52] Let's wait for... Did you read this?
[47:55] Yes, sir.
[47:56] Yes, sir.
[47:57] Yes, sir.
[47:58] Yes, sir.
[47:58] Yes, sir.
[47:58] Yes, sir.
[48:19] Battle of Ambury had a hell of a time.
[48:22] There's no way we can get Abrams to get all of his ass and pull his pants together.
[48:31] That is his fault.
[48:32] Why not put them all in one place?
[48:38] All right.
[48:39] All right.
[48:39] What work?
[48:39] Sir, I think we can, we can, we can get enough attention.
[48:44] I was over 100.
[48:44] 100 small pants.
[48:48] Tell Abrams, send him over, send him over.
[48:52] Tell him he probably hasn't.
[48:54] Don't have a copy of Churchill 1618.
[48:57] I mean, the 1618 volume, too.
[48:58] And tell him, just turn to the appendage, tanks, and read it.
[49:05] He's read it all before.
[49:07] He must have forgotten mass, what tanks he's got.
[49:12] Don't have it spread all over the town.
[49:16] They're no use to anybody.
[49:16] They're just sort of nice little pigeons out there.
[49:20] But why not have a tank attack?
[49:22] They have tank attacks.
[49:24] Why don't we have one?
[49:25] Take the small ones, particularly when they have anything.
[49:29] You haven't ever tanked it, but you've got to put two or three hundred together.
[49:33] Well, David, you probably don't do it.
[49:37] You're stressed about it.
[49:44] But acting like a goddamn bureaucrat, huh?
[49:49] Okay, if you put that on the wire, act like you wasn't even the bastard, but act like a bureaucrat, you're just gonna be a genius.
[49:58] Just quit trying to kiss Larry's ass.
[50:06] That wasn't clear.
[50:07] That wasn't clear, though.