Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Operation Linebacker

3:20Yes, that's the whole point.
3:27But the question is how hard we want him to hit.
3:34And that partly depends on how hard he's set up to hit.
3:44I was debating this morning, and I decided not to raise it to get in the tape on the New York Times on this Tony Lewis stuff, but Ken Klassen did it in a damn hard way yesterday.
3:56He said they were serving as a mouthpiece for M.A.S.A.
3:59and propaganda.
4:00Yeah, he put it out on his own name and did it just damn hard.
4:03Yeah.
4:12He said they were a conduit of enemy propaganda.
4:15The reference to the ship movement is entirely untrue, but in answer to a query the Times was told in advance by the U.S. government that no ship was entered or left.
4:23That truth was worth a single paragraph in the story of many column inches.
4:27The Times said briefly USA said the story was false.
4:30The Times prefers its own brand of truth.
4:33Both these stories at times are totally incorrect.
4:35If you don't see a correction, you have yet to see a story saying we were misled, we were duped, we were wrong.
4:41My question is, why?
4:50I'm afraid that it was an optimistic report on the state of the... Well, that's what I had in mind.
4:56Yeah.
4:56Well, that was the general plan.
4:58Right.
4:58That was the general plan.
5:00Well, you ought to get hard on the critics, not the townhouse.
5:06That's the one thing that we aren't getting across, because we can't break through on it.
5:08Don't you agree?
5:09It doesn't get through much.
5:10And it's clear to him from being over there how much criticism in this country
5:22He eats the other side and hurts our side.
5:24Is Henry available this morning or is he moving?
5:28Henry's down at this meeting.
5:29He's getting by.
5:30I don't know.
5:31Hey, Bob, when you first saw this guy, I didn't know how to live with him for the last time.
5:35But to show you, Bob, how you really got to get this after this damn trip was over, it's possible he's going to change.
5:42You know where they held the U.S. last time?
5:51Christ would be better than Chavis.
5:54About that he fell.
5:56Chavis is never with us.
5:57Not even, not part of it.
5:58But never, never, never.
5:59And he's always out with those other people.
6:02And never with our people.
6:04It's a broad day.
6:05It's a waste.
6:06When he was out with Stuart also the night before, he had both outsourced.
6:18It's a small thing, but...
6:21Oh, we make a little bit, but we don't, no, there's many things, but I think once, you know, it gets harder to make a little share of it all.
6:51I don't know if they caught anybody, but they had notes.
6:57There was a note there that was a phone call to the Washington University.
7:02Oh, they were saying the violence and all that.
7:09I shouldn't say that.
7:19I said, for Christ's sake, you cannot let a story lie to the effect that ships are coming in and out.
7:23You can't let that lie.
7:24He said, well, McCloskey answered it.
7:25I said, screw McCloskey.
7:26It's got to be answered in a very mild way.
7:28Except, well, God.
7:28Except that it didn't carry as a big story.
7:29It argued that you don't want to answer this as a big story.
7:32I
7:51It's this sort of thing.
7:54Well, thank you.
8:23Listen, you know, you've got to get that waiting room thing worked out.
8:24You haven't been able to do it.
8:25I see you said it out there with the secretary.
8:26You can't work it out so you can get a separate waiting room for a distinguished guest.
8:28That's good.
8:28You said it with the secretary.
8:28Hell no.
8:29I think a man should be able to sit around and look at himself and work it out.
8:30Yeah, I just want to say two things.
8:31Vice President, you don't want to.
8:50You know, it's an easy one to keep you focused on the report on the trip that you keep an eye on.
8:54It can be a good one.
8:55What do you want?
8:56This one or the other?
8:57This one.
8:57It could be a common one, I guess.
8:59What's going on in Saigon and South Vietnam and basic attitudes on the other side.
9:21Your visit will always explain it.
9:22That's the first.
9:22That's a common fashion issue.
9:23The wires.
9:24There's nothing for me to add to that.
9:25I just thought I'd say it right first.
9:26But the quotes are good.
10:14All of them said good luck on the trip to Russia.
10:16So that's the end of the interview.
10:41Oh, sure.
10:42Well, what I meant is that they're a long time.
10:45They've been there for a good reason.
10:46Well, it was our fault.
10:47I'm sorry.
10:53There's nobody admitting how wrong they were.
11:15In some ways, we never did it out of the air.
11:42They said he was something for something and all that.
11:48Once again, they set themselves up by their knee for a reaction that they couldn't cope with.
12:12Because life's a good way to do it.
12:13Yeah.
12:13Try to find my way back.
12:13It's still in my imagination.
15:06If you want to do it, we'll pursue it.
15:08It turns out it's going to be in Russia at least.
15:12I think Moscow at the time.
15:21He's, as you know, a huge favorite of the Russians.
15:24I'd like to give him some attention because, you know, he opened his concert at Carnegie Hall by playing the Star Spangled Banner the other night.
15:32And there's a big news story about it.
15:35It says many in the full house were startled and some annoyed when Mr. Clyburn opened the program with the Star Spangled Banner.
15:42One woman on the stage, Bob Seger, pointed and refused to rise, and few listeners were rude enough to hiss.
15:47All right.
15:50All right.
15:50You know, he's super for us.
15:52That's what we have.
15:53That's the Russian thing.
15:54That's a little strange.
15:56But if we get it, he'll say, just say we wanted that for dinner.
16:00That's done.
16:01Okay.
16:09That's, then we're not importing entertainment, we're just using it.
16:12And you've got a great start, like we did in the Duggala dinner when we had, at Hyatt that's playing.
16:24Henry has insisted that we not use Radio Free Europe for any promotional stuff in either Russia or Poland.
16:28But I don't want to run.
16:30I know that.
16:31But I mean, Poland is a different thing.
16:33I don't know.
16:33He just says nothing must be done to use it.
16:36I can ask him to cover this with you.
16:40Oh, he's just going to call me.
16:54or, you know, you have to reconsider our Poland, or just say, oh, Russia, under no circumstances, but for Poland, don't you really discontinue our radio free program?
17:04I don't want them to say freedom.
17:05I just want them to put out low-key the fact the president's coming to give men to that program.
17:12That's what the kind of broadcast I want.
17:14The president is coming.
17:15Oh, it's like you're touching a terrier.
17:17That's all.
17:17There should be nothing.
17:19It should be pure news.
17:22Pure English, is that what you mean?
17:26Okay.
17:27We were talking about going beyond that in Poland, you know, the thing of...
17:36I don't want to stir up a revolution, but the president's coming, and he is a friend of both.
17:44We're the American people, the Polish people.
17:52That's all.
17:53Nothing more.
17:55No religion.
17:55Nothing else.
18:38You're coming in.
18:40You're coming in.
18:40Yeah, I'm just waiting.
18:42Yeah, the vice president is waiting for you to come over and come in with the vice president.
18:45Your office didn't just tell you?
18:47Okay.
18:49Okay.
18:49Okay.
18:49I don't know.
18:50I suppose so.
19:06I'm tired of the pro-luxury people.
19:09I'm tired of the pro-welfare people in all the races.
19:12Basically, they don't represent my views.
19:15I'm tired of the people that, you know, when you do something to be a cop, like the assholes quit.
19:24I've heard you people quit.
19:27I know they won't.
19:28They might be
19:32I wish they'd get the hell out.
19:33I know they're not dead, but I do really feel strongly about it.
19:34There'll be problems with Rogers at the moment, I see.
19:35Yeah, I think I have one.
19:36I think Mrs. Rogers is going to pull up with that.
19:37I don't give a shit about that.
19:37Perfectly all right.
19:38Perfectly all right.
19:38But not the rest of them.
20:06Yeah.
20:06Yeah.
20:06Yeah.
20:06Yeah.
20:07Yeah.
20:35I'm sorry to keep you waiting.
20:36We got a call that happened before.
20:46Well, you must be tired.
20:47You must be tired to sit here this time.
21:05Before we go...
21:30I want us to believe that we have the day to give up.
21:52The attack on Khantoum hadn't come yet.
21:56It was first that they put in 57 B-52 strikes in the immediate surroundings of Khantoum within five miles of Khantoum.
22:05It looked almost completely covered.
22:08And at this point, I've just had a meeting with the intelligence people.
22:19You can't say it's by design that they're holding off that attack because it's going to show up.
22:29So, again, we expect to lose Khaktoum whenever they attack.
22:36But, exactly as you said, we've said it's going to happen.
22:38And, look, I wasn't so good about it, but...
22:46It's too late.
22:47It's too late.
22:48It's too late.
23:11We are now getting a really high-lastic voice of enormous casualties on the other side.
23:18Is there any way you can get Tony Lewis reporting on this?
23:22The New York Times coverage of this, can you do the job at all?
23:25Oh, yes, I've got a lot, and it's disgraceful.
23:27It's straight to the communist mind.
23:29The son of a bitch, Lewis, wrote that the bomb cave wasn't working and that it might end up dead.
23:35But in fact, what the East German ship proves is exactly
23:58That's true.
23:59There's an East German boat, which he mentioned.
24:02That has been in there since April 7th and hasn't been able to unload because of our first bombing attacks, which knocked out some of the port facilities.
24:11And therefore, there has been a tremendous pileup of ships in Highmont Harbor anyway, and it just got up to the dock last week.
24:18It's true, it just started unloading last week, but it's been inside the harbor since April 7th.
24:23Polish ships got inside the harbor on May 2nd.
24:26No ship has come either in or out since May 10th.
24:30And there's just no way they could do it unless they started sweeping over to the construction.
24:36We'll land them and we'll put in pressure marks which can't be swept.
24:41So, my name is totally effective, is it not?
24:45100% effective.
24:45All day long.
24:46Just remember that.
24:48I didn't know that you said that.
24:50I know that my name is totally effective.
24:53Let me, let me talk.
24:58You were in Tennessee meeting that day, and you know how the thing comes up.
24:59You mean, you know, basically, they're representing the military point of view, and that is the military point of view.
25:25Why?
25:25Because they said in 68, there had been a study showing it wouldn't work.
25:33First, I think that was wrong.
25:35But that's true.
25:35That's right.
25:36That's right.
26:02Uh, we did not have the precision, uh, uh, uh, uh, authority for the air force with regard to the, with regard to taking on the railroad.
26:25All of these things make a difference.
26:26So what we have done now, we've cut off the shape of the building.
26:31We have cut off totally supplies from the city.
26:34They're eating, we're chewing them up in the south, you know, whatever that is, and they're having to eat oil and so forth.
26:41And the railroads, the railroads are systematically being taken out.
26:46And in addition to that, our army in the north is now directly in,
26:52It's hard to tell what they've got on the ground, but we think we've got at least 50%
27:09P.O.L.
27:10depot, disappeared P.O.L.
27:12supplies.
27:12We cut, I don't know, 60 to 80 percent of the Hanoi.
27:17We destroyed nearly 100 percent of another big P.O.L.
27:22farm 20 miles south of Hanoi that was burning for four days.
27:27And they showed pictures in which the fire on the third day was worse than on the second.
27:32It was totally out of control.
27:34We've knocked out all the convict stations by which they've moved forward through the time.
27:41Every rail bridge on one of the rail lines into China has been knocked out.
27:47And four out of five of the rail bridges on the other line of China, there hasn't been one train moving into Vietnam.
28:06for the last two weeks.
28:08So now we start talking about moving shot by truck.
28:12But, well, it can be done what they are.
28:17But, well, and on top of that, Mr. President, to move POL by truck is one hell of a job.
28:26They don't have the track of trucks.
28:30No ship.
28:31They were saying, you remember, that they could easily go into Chinese ports.
28:34Not one ship has yet been rerouted into a Chinese port.
28:38Those eight ships that were allegedly heading for Haipan
28:41I thought a little list would be helpful because if you get into speeches or a Q&A,
29:06We have the report from the French ambassador.
29:10We have the report.
29:13Did you see that?
29:13No, no, because that was given to us by the French ambassador.
29:18We have something.
29:19It's good.
29:19No, no, but we have absolute sources from North Vietnam.
29:23Well, you might say that you have a source that's totally reliable from Vietnam.
29:31It's so important.
29:37They use non-attributive remarks.
29:41But there is now... And I think you're going to be shaken even more by the results of the Moscow Summit.
29:49So the fact that it's going on... Well, the fact that it's going on is already unbelievably tough on them.
29:56So they are... Have you had any complaint from the Chinese for the strike at 70 miles from China?
30:06No.
30:06It's 12 miles.
30:07We knocked the bridge down yesterday.
30:09But our understanding from Joe was that we just wouldn't go over the border.
30:14He didn't...
30:14He wasn't worried about that being that... Well, we've kept it 20 miles from the border, and I think we'd better stop it now.
30:19Well, that's the only bridges we're knocking on.
30:22Yeah.
30:22The thing is about, you know, they've got two American pilots in China already.
30:28If they get over that border, they're going to get knocked down.
30:34That's the other thing.
30:34Well, they're not going across the border.
30:36I don't know if I'm mistaken, but I think the Chinese are more rapid ideologically, but it's fascinating that so far they haven't done a thing.
30:43I mean, they have no Soviet ships or any other ship in the Chinese ports.
30:48As far as we can tell, there's no additional overland movement from China.
30:54Of course, there can't be any because we've not got overland.
30:56Well, the thing that I think is terribly important before we go into the other things that you want to cover, and terribly important is just that
31:06getting through here to the polls and everything else that it's a solid majority and a magnitude of two of the three to one of the American groups is what we've done.
31:19That's point one.
31:20So that was him.
31:21Second, it did not, despite the fact that most of the columnists and commentators, the left, they said it would sink the summit and bring on World War III, has not done so.
31:32Third, the other thing is that it has had a devastating effect on morale in our Vietnam.
31:40foreign, it has had a very good effect on the morale of our 60,000 Americans there.
31:45That has been shown on American television.
31:48The one point that has not been gotten across is the fact that it has had, on the morale of the South Indonese, they are fighting better than the rest.
31:59And if after your brief visit and so forth, I mean, whatever you said out there,
32:03You can get across a little of the fact that they know that they've got to take a lift out of this.
32:08If you believe another, that's the point.
32:10That's the point.
32:11We haven't gotten across because nobody believes you in this, you know.
32:16But actually, Mr. President, if by the end of June...
32:20These guys have not done much better than now.
32:24It will be a disastrous defeat for them.
32:27They have put their whole bloody field army into this field now for seven weeks.
32:32And they've taken farm trees.
32:34They've advanced 22 miles into South Vietnam.
32:37That's all it is on that side.
32:40And now it's four miles.
32:42Can't do maybe 30 miles, but across jungles.
32:45Our threat is creating this panic.
32:49Or did we?
32:50Or did we.
32:50The panic now will be reported.
32:52It's getting to be a little better.
32:56And if we can hold the way, Abrams sent in a report for you today.
33:01Yeah, he's got it.
33:07He's not as bad as I am on that.
33:11But now that's your view.
33:13Well, what I do to save time, I brought some points, and I'd like to, if you agree, just to start with Japan.
33:25Sure.
33:28And move through the other places.
33:33Sure.
33:34First of all, the reversion ceremonies were...
33:37taken very seriously by the Japanese, and they were handled with very dignity, and I thought extremely impatiently that Sato was quite moved in his remarks.
33:40As a matter of fact, he actually broke down at one point in his remarks, and he was very complimentary to the United States.
34:10The audience with the emperor was very good.
34:12He was doing a ceremonial thing.
34:14He wanted to talk a lot about Japanese-American relationships.
34:21And these three, they gave the Japanese everything in protocol they could.
34:27A lunch with the emperor, a dinner with the prime minister, the whole works.
34:40He would be appreciated at the Anchorage visit.
34:42And also, he wants to come here.
34:44I said, I'm sure that we want him to come, compatible with your schedule.
34:48He's really back in our office.
34:51All the 10 of these leaders expressed strong support for the U.S. policies in the Southeast Asia.
35:09And I had a chance to talk to Tanaka informally, and they seem to be keeping him one step behind Fukudan in such a way.
35:19He's got a fighting, you know, I think he's a very slow ball.
35:23Yeah, Fukudan is the guy that's going to do this job.
35:26Yeah.
35:28But they're all alive.
35:30The whole party is alive, pro-U.S., very strongly, and they wanted everybody to know that.
35:37The Sato assured me that the Japanese concern over the shock with your visit to the PRC was history and
35:52that our future and their future are extremely aligned.
35:55And they welcome our desire to play an increasing part in the economic role, increasing economic role in the area.
36:10Fukuda made a very strong pitch for U.S. support for a permanent Japanese seat on the U.N. Security Council, one of our systems.
36:13He said that the nuclear powers and the great powers find that the great economic powers, which is the point he made, should also have a voice.
36:16I thought that we generally supported their desire.
36:37to achieve the goal.
36:39As I said, Bukidan is still the frontrunner in six weeks.
36:42Sato, the Tanaka has moved up fast.
36:44I had a formal meeting with the foreign minister, but only brief contact with the Tanaka.
36:50But I'm pretty positive, based on my conversation with Sato, that any – either one of these men would continue to follow a very pro-U.S. policy.
36:58I don't think we have any worries in that respect.
37:07And the party is very well off because the Communist Party and the Socialist Parties are even more fragmented than ever before.
37:09Good, good, good.
37:10And so they have a lot of demonstrations on Reversion Day, but the police are extremely adaptive.
37:12Very, very nicely done, in a harsh way, but they handle them well.
37:13One thing I thought I said that was surprising was that somewhat
37:38Unsolicited.
37:38It really didn't fit in the context of what we were talking about.
37:39He was speaking about Suharto's visit, which was going on concurrently with my ending as I came in.
37:42And he contrasted the leadership, the qualities of the Indo-China people in Suharto.
37:43A very unfavorable one.
37:44Okay.
37:44An unfavorable Indo-China.
38:02I jumped in there and I supported him rather strongly.
38:05I said that this man's had a very difficult domestic situation to deal with.
38:09He has made general successes in the face of most difficult circumstances.
38:28I noted Ambassador Bunker's high, continuing high confidence.
38:30I mean, because Sato always thanks a lot of Bunker.
38:31I'm not told that Sato, we have confidence in you also.
38:33But that sort of surprised me.
38:34He's not a great admirer of anybody in the Chinese.
38:35He feels there's a breakdown of leadership.
38:37And in Vietnam,
38:53And I spent about an hour and a half or two in the most intensive military briefing.
38:55Bunker Abrams being present, and I spent two, two Bunker Abrams all present over the period.
38:57Yeah.
38:57And then I spent another hour, hour and a half or so with Bunker Abrams.
38:59Right.
38:59By themselves at Thompson.
39:15They all seem confident of the elementability of the arm that contained me back at the station.
39:18Chu looks extremely well.
39:18He's not at all shaky or erratic.
39:19He's very calm.
39:20He did the briefing military district by district in a most logical way.
39:22He's very well up on the situation.
39:44His theory is, and I seem to subscribe to this, that when they started this invasion, they had in mind that they would be able to stretch it over about a nine-month period, that they would not, under any circumstances, withdraw to the sanctuaries for replenishment.
39:58But the idea was to move in and get the territory and hold it, at the same time trying to destroy the main forces of the South Vietnamese.
40:11then disrupt the territorial forces and the political structure, and then go to the bargaining table in firm possession of strong points such as concrete, clay, analog, and demand a coalition of government which they would be able to control through their very sophisticated destructive processes and then get control of the country that way.
40:39Now, he says because of the mining operation and because of the bombing, the enemy's had to reassess his capabilities, and he estimates he can only maintain a four-month proposition at the absolute top.
40:48Starting in April?
40:48Yeah.
40:48Four months, that's all.
40:49I mean, starting when the offensive started?
40:51Yeah, starting when it started.
40:52So they call it a four-month.
40:53He feels that...
41:08The bombing has been tremendously successful.
41:11And as you just pointed out, it has not only been successful in a military sense, but it has totally reversed the South Vietnamese morale.
41:17The people there are looking optimistically at the situation.
41:19The bombing of the mine.
41:20The bombing of the mine.
41:21The knowledge of the North Vietnamese that nothing's coming down the pipeline, the quantity that it did is adversely affecting that.
41:38But the one point he wanted to make, if there's anything that's really going, is the B-52.
41:40The B-52 is the workforce that's really going to jail for it.
41:42And they feel in Khartoum that the reason this attack hasn't come is because the losses have just been incredible because of what we've done.
41:46We had intelligence reports from two regiments that had come into assembly areas.
42:05I'm ready to drive away at the rampant load.
42:08All three, uh, on the bus L3, I mean, uh, to Bunker Havens.
42:13I feel there is a chance that Khantoum, which is the weakest of all, can be held, particularly since the road to Pleiku is now open again.
42:20In District 1, they're just amazed with what Truong has been able to do since they put him up there.
42:28His defense is mobile.
42:29It involves strikes.
42:38to keep the enemy off balance, and it's been tremendously successful.
42:41Meanwhile, again, the air has forced an evacuation of the SAM missiles back from below the DMZ, not only from above the DMZ, but most of them are on the way back to Haiphong, and that's the way to protect against strikes there.
42:53So yesterday, for example, the Air Force general
43:07Did they discuss with you at all the possibilities of them having a commando or even larger operation in North Vietnam?
43:09No.
43:10This is finally important.
43:10You see, Henry, the reason it's important is one of the two.
43:35If you have, for example, a negotiation at a time that North Vietnam occupies, I don't care if it's only 22 miles to South Vietnam, then you have the second partition.
43:51If, on the other hand, South Vietnam has anything in North Vietnam, you've got something to do there.
43:57And I realize it may be impossible,
44:00If there was just some way to just have some force there.
44:04I'm thinking of the negotiating thing, not another project.
44:06If they could just have somebody sitting in the van or just sitting around.
44:12Then we'd say, all right, we'll get out of here.
44:14You can get out of there.
44:15Otherwise, what you're going to negotiate is to negotiate where you're going to settle based on the current military situation, which is all you can ever negotiate anyway.
44:26He didn't much choose who it was.
44:29They're going to – they're – they need to really make certain they can handle that line and come to them and weigh in the physical forces right now and meet the flexibility.
44:35I've got the impression that he would resist any kind of strike in the north at this time.
44:55As Henry just pointed out, they're all aware that they've knocked out these two bridges, the one from High Palm and the one south of Pennwood, the Loomé Bridge.
45:00It's been extremely effective.
45:01There's a cotton bridge across, alongside the Loomé Bridge, but it's not really been able to carry the P.O.L.
45:04but heavy stuff.
45:05And the, the rain hasn't cut very well.
45:07Apparently,
45:24The attitude that I understood was that there's some remorse over the fact that they're going to get the limits put on bombing.
45:33The fact that they can't.
45:36What are they going to do?
45:37Those sons of bitches of the Air Force.
45:39They're talking about it.
45:40If we hit it once more, I'm going to recommend to the President to fire that bastard of a chief of staff of the Air Force.
45:47There are no limits on the bombing.
45:54He cannot go for the next two weeks inside of 10 miles.
46:09And for the last week, these bastards, we've told them to bomb, to take out the target inside the 10-mile circle because we had promised the Russians while we were in Moscow we wouldn't bomb inside Hanoi.
46:20They asked us not to bomb above the 20th parallel.
46:23We rejected it.
46:24They asked us not to bomb Hanoi and Haiphong.
46:26We rejected it.
46:27They said you cannot bomb the capital of an allied country.
46:34Now who's that?
46:35Who'd you get this from?
46:37It's an outrage.
46:41These bastards are thinking only of their own alibis for the week, Mr. Vice President.
46:47I have told those guys to bob inside that circle to take care of these copies.
46:54I think he's in my office.
46:58I think he's in my office.
47:07or something that was inside the buffer zone that they could have really done right, but they couldn't go back because they were restricted.
47:15What is that?
47:16What is that?
47:17There are two circles.
47:18There are only two restrictions.
47:19One is the 10-mile area around Hanoi for the next two weeks.
47:22The other one is a 20-mile...
47:23The other one is a 20... No, no.
47:25Inside that 10-mile zone, they can hit any target that we've approved, which includes the bridges.
47:35And?
47:36Inclusive air.
47:38Let's get more rain here, you get my order.
47:49Where is Mark?
47:50I think he's in my office waiting for me.
47:52Well, the operator can't find him.
47:54They're usually quite competent.
47:56Well, he's in my office, I think.
47:57I'm certain he's in my office.
47:59I mean, when we requested it, you know, they put those, what is it, 10-36, right?
48:06Is he in?
48:06I was asking where he is.
48:31Air Force, Ryan today, he's out, out, out, out.
48:36They've been pitching it on, and I've been, I've not been telling it to the president.
48:41So, for God's sake, they've never had such good, they've got total freedom to bomb and place it on.
48:47And they know it, and they are going to be used.
48:49They're the ones who have it.
48:50We have people thinking that, uh, they're scared, they're scared to go ahead and seal it.
48:54They're going to do 5,000, and God damn it, it's greatly supplied, uh,
49:14Your colleagues in the military in Vietnam and Pearl Harbor, they are complaining that we have put such limited restrictions on them in terms of what they can bomb.
49:27They are unable to do an effective job.
49:29And I want to tell you something.
49:31And I've said this before and I'm going to say it again.
49:36Ryan has got to get off his goddamn ass or he's out.
49:40I'm tired of him anyway.
49:46for the son killed and all that sort of thing.
49:48But let me say, you know, I ordered that goddamn Air Force time and time again to do anything they can.
49:574,000-foot ceiling.
49:58You know what I know, that they do not have restrictions.
50:02The only restriction they've got is the one with the 10 miles of Hanoi at the present time, which they didn't have before.
50:09And the Air Force didn't do a goddamn thing for the last three days, if you know.
50:13Not one goddamn thing in North Vietnam.
50:16Because the little bastards were afraid that they might lose a plane because they couldn't see.
50:35or there's going to be a new challenge.
50:43What the hell is the matter with these people?
50:46Why are they whining?
50:49Because they are afraid to go ahead and do the job that they've been ordered to do?
50:58What in the hell is the matter with them now?
51:01I really don't know.
51:10but they have been able to go back.
51:14I've taken it, I've really taken it out.
51:16They were told they couldn't go back.
51:19Now that is absolutely false.
51:21That is absolutely false.
51:23Not only have they been able,
51:28because they're afraid that the weather isn't good enough.
51:32They've got to have 5,000-foot ceilings.
51:33We've got to have Israelis fly at 1,000-foot ceilings.
51:36Now, tell them to get off their goddamn ass and do the job.
51:41And I, like, for example, I want some 52s to get there.
51:45Oh, no, Abrams needs them in the South.
51:46I've got my bookkeeping in the South.
51:48But for Christ's sakes, why does the Air Force constantly undercut us and bitch when they've never been back as they're back today?
51:56Tell them to do the job.
51:58Now, I agree with you.
51:59Ryan is going to have a resignation on this.
52:02I don't fire his ass out of here unless he gets a discipline on that now.
52:08Is that clear?
52:08Yes, Mr. President, I just finished.
52:10I'm in Austin.
52:17Why are they saying to the Vice President of the United States that the President is limiting what they can do?
52:23Why are they saying that?
52:24I was not sure.
52:25They are complaining about the restricted air.
52:28There are no restricted air.
52:29There are not.
52:29Nothing else is restricted.
52:30I guess they're talking about that 10-mile limit.
52:32No, no, no, it wasn't there.
52:34The 10-mile limit only goes into effect tomorrow morning.
52:42Bullshit!
52:42They just told you!
52:44I mean, you've got to get your story a little bit straighter, too.
52:47They told you they didn't go back and get the railroad.
52:50There has been absolutely no restriction on the railroad.
52:52There will be no limit until tomorrow morning.
52:55Now, let's get this straight.
52:56I want to ship this goddamn object.
52:58Now, you shape it up.
52:59That's your job.
53:01And get it done fast.
53:02And it's nice and neutral.
53:15They were ordered to go back again that way, and I know the one they're talking about.
53:19And the sons of bitches said, for four days, we can't fly because of the weather.
53:24Every day this week, we've been studying this.
53:26They have a long, long sortie in North Vietnam this week.
53:30You know why?
53:31Because they say the weather is too bad.
53:38So it's up there.
53:39Now, let's get the damn story straight.
53:43You've got to hear these people.
53:45That's why Laird turned a half-assed attitude.
53:48He didn't have meaning.
53:50Because the goddamn military has been, I mean, rather than saying,
53:55give us an opportunity.
53:56They're afraid to be wrong.
53:58I have to make that decision alone.
54:01The military is against it.
54:03The State Department is against it.
54:06The CIA was against it.
54:07Now, it's time that we quit bitching about what we're doing and put the beat on there.
54:14Now, listen, it's Moore's ass, too.
54:17Moore has got to start shaping people up.
54:19Now, I'm just tired of hearing this kind of crap.
54:28But there are only two bridges in there of which we've taken special permission to knock one out.
54:47or he'd leave because we don't want to have a bomb drop on the Russian embassy, let's face it.
54:56We'd be pleading with them this week to knock out every target in Hanoi this week.
55:03For example, I was raising hell this morning.
55:06I said the congressional group on this whole thing.
55:09Just to give you an example, Mr. Vice President, we've been bugging them this week to take out all the targets in Hanoi and leave Haiphang for next week because there are no restrictions on Haiphang.
55:20So when I get my morning briefing, I find they have hit 20 targets in Haiphang the day before yesterday.
55:27And because they're closing, you know, there's more to get done.
55:37And I said, God damn it, we've got to win this thing.
55:40And you've got to risk some plans, including B-52s.
55:43And it's tough.
55:44It's tough.
55:45They'll have a hell of a sense.
55:46There's two reasons.
55:47There's your disreason.
55:49There's the fact that I know I have to give to the Air Force.
55:51I know I have to give to the Navy.
55:54And the Air Force won't fly.
55:56And the Air Force has also the battlefields, so they stage it differently.
56:02But instead of having an integrated plan, when we tell them, we've got to get the Hanoi targets this week because for a week you can't get them, they go merrily away hitting high barns and don't go anywhere.
56:17But it's unfair.
56:18You were the one that made them fly up north to begin with.
56:21They didn't want to do it.
56:23flatly refused to go until I ordered him to go.
56:27Every B-52 strike in the North, you ran down their throats.
56:29They didn't want to do it.
56:31We've had to order it from here against tables from the Air Force and the papers, telling us not to do it.
56:39I mean, yeah, so much for that.
56:40You can go ahead and do whatever your stalling is all about.
56:43The, uh, well, they can get out, because they're more sensitive to start getting off their ass and doing it, and that's all.
56:50Abrams did defend very strongly.
56:51This is the last minute.
56:52If I'd have known this background, I would have understood it better.
56:56Putting most of his body and capability in this cell.
56:59Yeah.
56:59He doesn't understand the need to do the dark psychological thing.
57:03There's just no psychologist.
57:07Moving on to the pilot, and the pilot leaders were very interested in the current situation, and they're very reassured by this strong action.
57:16I think this is very important.
57:18I thank them for the quick action on the top of the airspace and some of the things that we're doing.
57:27We really love it, and this helps them, too, economically.
57:30This is a big thing for them.
57:32They say they don't want our people here, but they love it.
57:36They felt pretty confident that they could figure it out.
57:38They felt pretty confident.
57:39Yes, they did.
57:40Now, they're working on this in certainty in the Northeast.
57:44It's not always a problem.
57:46It's not a problem.
57:47Diane and Dave, they do their desire to work, but they want to know what they want.
57:54They want to know what they want.
58:12You come to land, you can leave yourself.
58:16You say you and I have talked.
58:18And God damn, I don't know what we're going to do about it.
58:21If they can use it, let's get over there.
58:22Because you see, what we could do, if you've got it there and then something pops up in Vietnam and you get a ceasefire, let that go over and knock off the Vietnamese.
58:32I expect when you follow up with this, you say that we discussed it.
58:43of excuses, and he just said, if you want to, if you are going to vote directly to me, I'm going to vote.
58:48Another thing they asked for was, are we going to be a president?
58:54We're going to be a president.
58:55We're all in these towns and sometimes we're going to be a president.
58:59We've got so many of those around the world sitting around us.
59:04No, I mean, you know, it rumbles down the street.
59:07That's what goes on.
59:09That's easy.
59:09That is a thing they can do without any question.
59:12And small human communications.
59:29And I buttered a little bit on this, and I said I'd try to help get the true facts across.
59:32This congressman, Lester Wolfe, made him really angry about taking credit for the burning of that OEM, which had really a long time of program that was going on between the Thai and the Chinese, and it worked out pretty well.
1:00:03They appreciate it.
1:00:03I came back from Vietnam.
1:00:04I gave them a full military brief.
1:00:05And they're still free.
1:00:05They're 100%.
1:00:06I don't have to worry about it.
1:00:06They don't want to be on the losing side.
1:00:07The only thing I have, Unger's a damn good ambassador.
1:00:09But I get the feeling he talks to me one way and talks another way.
1:00:11I don't think he's really as hawkish.
1:00:12And Unger?
1:00:13Well, he does.
1:00:13He does.
1:00:30He talks hawkish to me.
1:00:32He's not.
1:00:33He's not.
1:00:33He's a clever career guy, but on the other hand, Hunker doesn't believe in what we believe.
1:00:41And very few ambassadors do.
1:00:43Hunker doesn't do.
1:00:45Hunker.
1:00:45Hunker doesn't do.
1:00:47He's not being biased.
1:00:48I got it in my side.
1:00:51I said, he's still in the same confidence as you.
1:00:54Yeah.
1:00:55The main thing is if you can get across to the present factor.
1:01:07I feel that it's more important to turn to the psychology of something.
1:01:11Now, if they go through this all motion, the fact that this proves the animation doesn't work, you can say this is the proof that it does work.
1:01:19After all, the anarchy of the maids are invading now, and the invasion thing has got to come to be true.
1:01:29to destroy the pacification program through their subversion and so forth because the people of South Vietnam don't want communism.
1:01:41I think another thing is that, firstly, the thing is that this is going to work.
1:01:45That's the main thing now.
1:01:46And it's going to – I'm optimistic that if we get through the Russian thing here, if you can imagine, there might be a negotiation involving all of this because the Russians are – they respect the Assad party.
1:02:09I have no confidence in them, whatever.
1:02:10If they don't, then the middle of Hanoi is going to get it right in the chops.
1:02:13That's the way it's going to be.
1:02:14And we're not going to be too damn worried about our civilian casualties.
1:02:17We're going to blame them anyway.
1:02:18That's right.
1:02:18They didn't get that power station on us.
1:02:19We were supposed to be good on that.
1:02:20That's what they told me on the block.
1:02:22They had to go.
1:02:22What?
1:02:39That's what they call it, well, it's called, well, it's called, yeah.
1:02:57He's very upset about us coming to retirement.
1:02:58He says, right now, please don't take me out of here.
1:02:59We're not going to.
1:03:00We're going to keep you.
1:03:01I've got to stay here.
1:03:02I think the guy is a fighter.
1:03:03His son is a prisoner of war, you know.
1:03:04And he's a little fighter.
1:03:05He's on our side.
1:03:06But as a matter of fact, we decided to extend him.
1:03:07Just for your information tonight.
1:03:21He's very emotional about this.
1:03:32Particularly this bomb, the bomb allocation.
1:03:33He's very defensive.
1:03:34He's got to crush out of this attack on that block and continue because that's where the...
1:03:37He wants to, but he says we can't let any of these places collapse.
1:03:39And then he says we can move the bomb.
1:03:40He wants to stabilize these areas.
1:03:41Of course, she agrees with that strategy, apparently.
1:04:00But you also agree to the strategy.
1:04:03He doesn't question the mining strategy.
1:04:05No, but he doesn't question the bombing of the North.
1:04:08He just says that we've got to make that.
1:04:11He wants all 52s.
1:04:12He wants them until he's sure he's got them.
1:04:15You know, we checked around to see if we could get some RB-52s, but it takes too long to get them made over.
1:04:20You see, B-52s are not made.
1:04:21They're made here in the beer box.
1:04:23You know, God, we should put another hundred in there.
1:04:27We could, but...
1:04:28But I get to the second question, and it's really funny.
1:04:29Another carrier, you know, arrived in the States.
1:04:30We ordered three more squadrons, Marine squadrons, in from Japan three days ago, too.
1:04:32They all ended up there.
1:04:32But then I was the witness, and I told them, and I'm just pushing them all over the place.
1:04:34Well, the Japanese situation was excellent.
1:04:35I was getting a problem there.
1:04:36I was getting a problem at the time.
1:04:37And they were a little worried about consultation, and I told them, I said, you've got to do these things.
1:05:00You might say that you saw a very different South Vietnam and a very different Saigon in Saigon than you had been led to believe by what you had seen on television and in the press in the United States.
1:05:13I think, would that be all right?
1:05:15That we just ought to go there, that they are confident, they're fighting for their country, they don't want communism, and they're going to win.
1:05:22All right, confidence.
1:05:25Stick it to them.
1:05:26Let me suggest one other thing.
1:05:27I went out to see Wallace this morning, you know.
1:05:29I think in about three or four, three, three, four days, it'd be nice to be one of, you know, guys in an hospital that, and I just go out there, and we never know what's going to happen before falling.
1:05:36He's got to get into that, and he's got to be paralyzed.
1:05:38That's pretty good.
1:05:54That's what we hear.
1:05:55That's what the doctors want to hear.
1:05:59I think he knows it.
1:06:00The spirit is good.
1:06:01He has an American flag and roses on there.
1:06:04And I said, I've got it.
1:06:07old flag flying high.
1:06:08He says, I will.
1:06:08He saluted me.
1:06:09He said, I'm going to salute the commander in chief.
1:06:10I said, well, get out.
1:06:11But if you could go out and have a talk, you might see him.
1:06:13You know, I chatted with him.
1:06:15I suggested that you come out.
1:06:16What I would do is maybe talk to him since he was not a son of mine.
1:06:19My son might have said, I don't know what you might do.
1:06:22He might give us as well as a call and say, perhaps I'm not here Tuesday.
1:06:36You know, just come out and shout at them.
1:06:39And work it out.
1:06:40The way to work it out is to call Lukash.
1:06:42He's the White House doctor that's assigned to them.
1:06:45And Lukash will talk to their doctors out there, work out the time and so forth.
1:06:49I would go out and see him.
1:06:51I'd get people in the hospital and they may even shoot his parents up.
1:06:54All right.
1:06:54Gets to sleep.
1:07:05Give my best, my God.
1:07:05I did it.
1:07:06I just told this about Tricia, so she's doing it, and I agree hard with you there.
1:07:11They said, Bob, old Frank's about your job, Lane.
1:07:13Oh, they're all going to be there.
1:07:15I don't think Lane's done that.
1:07:16Jimmy Stewart?
1:07:17No, there are other people.
1:07:18There are a lot of those people that are great watchers.
1:07:20They're a great watcher.
1:07:21It's a fun restaurant.
1:07:24It's a fun restaurant.
1:07:24Yeah.
1:07:27It's good to get them to work.
1:07:50I don't know if she ever made on the Wallace thing with the attitude that the only thing to do is to legislate against guns.
1:07:59Her blog has a thing about the sick American society and politics of the gun.
1:08:02Now, what the hell do you want?
1:08:06One nut out of 200 million people shoots a man.
1:08:08By the way, they like a bullpen society.
1:08:10So you're not...
1:08:11Anybody that wants to get a gun gets one.
1:08:15Let's get back to our...
1:08:21Well, anyway, we've got good gun control legislation pretty well in there, but what do they want to do, just disarm the populace and leave, disarm the good folks and leave the irons and hands to criminals?
1:08:36I can get the cop, get the cop out on the idea that they do more to stimulate violence.
1:08:41Got it.
1:08:43Did they say this when somebody shot at Franklin D. Roosevelt and killed the mayor of Chicago?
1:08:53Did they say this when somebody shot at Harry Truman in front of Blair House and killed a Secret Service agent?
1:09:04Did they say this when somebody shot at the House of Representatives?
1:09:08Did they say it then?
1:09:09I mean, we always have it there.
1:09:12Again, that's one of the costs of a free society.
1:09:14There are many people running around, and you cannot guard against it.
1:09:18If you want freedom, the only way you can guard against it is to have the people totally subtracted.
1:09:24Now, there's, let me say, it's very interesting to note that those societies in which the people have no firearms are the big dictatorships.
1:09:35Yeah, right over there.
1:09:37None of the Russian citizens have gotten a firearm.
1:09:40Not that I mean, I don't, I've never owned a gun, but by God, you just can't go that far, that's all.
1:09:45But, but more, more in the NDR, the Truman thing, to them.
1:09:48And say, wherever you follow that, did you think we were sick of that?
1:09:53Do you know what I mean?
1:09:59What's, uh, John, how am I going to do this?
1:10:02He's going to go back to Texas and he's going to try to help his brother.
1:13:05Shut up.
1:13:05You won't try.
1:13:08You might try.
1:13:09I don't mind.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam War and Operation Linebacker

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Also recorded on May 19, 1972

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