Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and CIA

25:09Unusual good.
25:10Just a minute, I'm checking to see if he was coming in.
25:16He was probably coming in before I go.
25:25All right, good morning, sir.
25:31Well, I think it looks very good in general, but the inlock thing is still, they haven't moved through there yet.
25:42They're about a kilometer away, and they reinforced that 21st Division, but it's a disgracefully slow operation.
25:51They got zapped a couple of times while you were away, which has made them more cautious moving up that road.
26:00Pressure's off the perimeter.
26:01The enemy isn't doing a whole lot there either.
26:05No, sir.
26:05And there's some signs that the two of the divisions, their elements have moved back up towards the Cambodian border.
26:13So that battle looks fairly stable.
26:17Khantoum looks very good.
26:19They cleaned out the remnants of the enemy.
26:21They've been cleaning up to the north of the perimeter.
26:24They got about 180 killed yesterday in the morale and the
26:30general demeanor of the enemy.
26:40He's been kicking them in the...
26:44I'm not so sure that they're just not so goosey about getting caught in there again.
26:50And it's a very treacherous route in.
26:54And it's traditionally been the ambush site.
26:57And they got hit there twice.
26:59Ten days ago.
27:03Well, they have tunnels and fortifications that they have built over the years that come right up to the road.
27:08These guys actually get under the road, and then when the vehicles start passing, they're going to come out with cycle charges and what have you.
27:16What about the way in that area?
27:20That looks very good.
27:22The enemy's having trouble moving his supplies, and he's complaining about it.
27:27The two operations that went up north towards Quantree and relieved all the pressure against the marine side of the perimeter, they've been doing air mobile operations to the west from the central perimeter.
27:42And there's just no sign that the enemy's been able to get set for that attack, which they're trying to get launched.
27:52And it's mostly as a result of a preemptive action being taken
27:56by the Airborne and the First Division and the Marines.
28:01So that situation looks good.
28:04The question would be what the letter is coming on now.
28:12Yes, sir.
28:13And in 2 and 3 Corps, it's having an effect already.
28:16We get intercepts if they can't move their artillery and their supplies are not getting in.
28:22This is going to get worse and worse for them.
28:26It does inhibit our air a little bit.
28:30On balance, it favors us more than it does them.
28:32There are signs of real problems up north as well, even to the point where there are many in public statement from Hanoi yesterday.
28:49They referred to great economic stress as a result of the mining and bombing.
28:55Of course, then they protest that they'll be able to fight on in any event.
29:03Oh, sure.
29:04They have to protest that.
29:06But what about the bombing of Normanton?
29:09Is it still affecting the degree that you feel that?
29:13It's been very effective.
29:14The photos of the accuracy of it has been damn good.
29:17I mean, when they've set a target, they've destroyed it.
29:20That's the bridges and the trestles and the passes.
29:22They collapsed the pass up there in the buffer zone with China on Sunday, which is really going to give them fits to get that open.
29:31There are no real signs yet that they have launched a program to fix this thing through trucks or special construction efforts or anything else.
29:46Of course, they're working on what would knock out
29:49And we keep heading it as soon as we get some work done, then we go in and hit it out, knock it out again.
29:55But there's no real, and there's continual friction between the Chinese and the Soviets on the port issue.
30:03As of yesterday, we got a report from the Soviets that the Chinese are still refusing to allow them to either overfly to set up an airlift or to unload their
30:17their vessels in Chinese ports.
30:19The Soviets complained that this is an effort to start friction between the United States and the Soviet Union on the part of the Chinese.
30:30So this thing is going one way.
30:32It's certainly a hell of a lot different than it was just from up the coast.
30:36No question about it.
30:37Now, we've got a detailed study being done by CIA to try to get some more hard figures on the PLL.
30:46They claim that we've destroyed 10% to 17%.
30:49That's all.
30:52But they're still drawing down with no replacement.
30:55So that figure should be.
30:56Why don't we destroy that much?
31:00Well, they have dispersed these stocks in suburban areas, in the civilian houses.
31:07I saw one picture that Moore had, which shows the whole back yards of houses
31:16Just jam-packed full of PLL drums.
31:22So we just can't lock it up?
31:27Well, we might have to, but I think until we get the study finished, it would, you know, have a problem here at home.
31:35That's right.
31:38We're doing damn well on them, and I think in a lot of ways... Well, after all, you've got to cut off, and they're drawing down.
31:44And they're drawing down.
31:45What the hell?
31:46I suppose you don't knock it off, do you?
31:49It doesn't go on for...
31:50The CIA asked me that they had four months of supply in the beginning.
31:54This is what we've asked them to hard study on.
31:56They haven't been writing that book.
31:58Never.
31:58Goddamn, the CIA is just incredibly bad here.
32:00I don't know what the hell they might do.
32:04Not everything you've ever asked them about.
32:08They're wrong on their political estimates.
32:10Well, every lack of political estimates about what happened when we did this.
32:14I mean, they're wrong on that.
32:17They're always goosey about everything.
32:19They never want to take any risks.
32:23I guess they just want to be sure.
32:26I think most of these guys now are very concerned that they've been wrong.
32:31That doesn't make them any more friendly.
32:33It makes them more dangerous.
32:34I think they realize they've made fools of themselves
32:39It puts into jeopardy all the judgments of the mid-60s.
32:43Yeah.
32:43That's true.
32:48I don't think it's our advantage to rub that in because it gets an emotional challenge to them.
32:54As a matter of fact, I always draw the picture that you and your policies have changed the strategic environment, which make the inhibitions of the 60s no longer tenable and have made this
33:09this reaction possible.
33:12And that's the best way they like that, because it gets them off the hook.
33:16Sure.
33:16I don't know.
33:18We're going to change the goddamn CIA.
33:20We've got to get better people who aren't God-seeking.
33:24That's right.
33:25Well, I mean... Just get that damn OSS crowd out of there, the Georgetown crowd.
33:27They just aren't much good at all.
33:30The Georgetown crowd.
33:32That's what it is.
33:33But it has the same flavor of the OSS crowd.
33:35I mean, I've heard people who've been to that.
33:38Jesus.
33:39It's the same as the Stink Room.
33:41The CIA didn't stay with us all night.
33:45Walter said the morning that the Helms announced to the assembled staff over there that they were mining.
33:52He said they all went but broke out into tears.
33:55He said he never saw anything like it.
33:59Of course, he's slowly but surely getting his finger on these guys.
34:03And he's watching.
34:04He's making a list for me.
34:06Good.
34:08He must do that.
34:09He must do that.
34:10Because, tell me this, when they're not going to ask you, are those CIA people related?
34:17Are they like this?
34:19Are they presidential appointees?
34:21No, they have some tenure, though.
34:22They have a...
34:24But that's easy to handle.
34:27You just move them to another spot that they don't like, and then they'll quit.
34:31But get them out of a policy position.
34:38I asked if John Waller could keep his eye on him.
34:41He's confirmed he's a real bad apple, and I think he's very close to him, so we're going to have to slip him out.
34:50Well, of course, we'll slip those bastards out of there and make a mess.
34:53I don't have that, but didn't say to him, remember, we ought to just clean that place.
35:00I agree.
35:01I guess 100 out of them.
35:03And I'd be ruthless about it.
35:04I believe in any goddamn thing there is.
35:07There are plenty of places so that you don't abrogate their funds.
35:10Well, you can cut down the whole policy set.
35:11First, I'd cut it in half.
35:13That would be a good thing.
35:15And that way, you can get rid of a few cancer, or you get rid of the wrong people.
35:19You see, we don't need so many.
35:22No, we need a lot of people.
35:24You could cut it down to some.
35:26That could be another.
35:27Just rip a lot of them.
35:28And the other, again, some of the others just transfer and add on to a micro.
35:34We just got to do it.
35:36walrus has been doing well they he's changed their daily estimates totally each one of these daily estimates used to come in they'd go out and look for horror stories and inflate them and it was always everything was lost and doomed every day would be that way and the difference between that and the military reporting which was probably tends to be a little out of question but there's something that's it has to be
36:08He's clearing them all every day, and their reports are much better than they have been since he's been there.
36:15So he's getting hold of it.
36:21And I think here at home, most of our people have been solid.
36:25We had no problems while you were away in terms of attitudes.
36:30People are very, very encouraged by it.
36:34that occurs because they don't see the horror of animals every day, this one being lost, this one being threatened, and so on.
36:44They see some costly things that we're doing, which we please have to continue.
36:48But the reporting has changed.
36:49Has it really?
36:50I think it has very much.
36:50Even that son of a bitch, Louis, he came back and wrote a bleeding story that they're in trouble after he got back to New York.
36:59He, of course, I think made a fool of himself over there, and this hurts him.
37:08I mean, I want to see some plan involved with this.
37:14I really want to, I really plan to decimate the CIA.
37:16He doesn't tell anybody, but he's got to know what we have in mind.
37:21I think two people, one get cut down, and I'll get rid of him.
37:25I just like to have a place where I can have fun.
37:28No job left.
37:29Get out.
37:30And then the other is to...
37:33Uh, do you mean transfer them to, what, to E. coli or something?
37:39Do that, or send them abroad to some station where they... Go to some of the labs?
37:46Well, if you don't get over there, well, there's a little danger.
37:48All right.
37:50Good.
37:50It's okay.
37:51I'll find you.
38:01Were you calling me, I've heard.

Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and CIA

AI Summary

Audio

Transcript (AI-generated)

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 6, 1972

Cite this conversation