Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and People's Republic of China

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Pretty good, sir.

I just talked to him.

No, he's having a great visit, he said, and he received them very well.

One thing that they're really pushing is the Emperor's visit here.

He would like to say that

at the earliest convenient date after the presidential elections, you were calling any plan that he would come here in the evening.

And they'll probably put this out publicly on Monday over there.

That'd be a good thing for them to have.

I think he's quite enthusiastic about the way that the meetings are going.

We've got a call to go up to New York to get a note from the Chinese.

And we've been having some real goings along the coast there with these little boats there unloading from two Chinese vessels.

And we've been sinking them right and left.

And we captured one yesterday.

Who did that?

The Soviet?

Some of our people.

Maybe.

They sunk one that was loaded with ammunition, and it just blew up.

They captured the other, and the crew abandoned it.

And it was loaded with rice, which we had had to reverse that.

But maybe they're going to bitch about that.

And we think that one of their merchant ships fired on our surface craft.

So it could be getting a little bit testy there.

So we've had another problem to develop a Chinese gun very vicious in Stockholm.

I saw that.

I wonder if that wasn't very predictable.

But I don't know why.

Well, I think it's pro forma art.

I asked him to analyze this thing, and he said that this was a big play for the Third World.

The Russians weren't there, so they shot at us.

That's right.

I think our people should not build up too much.

On this one, that's exactly right.

I'm making them give our response, which Herter will give.

Over here.

Send it over here today, and I'm not going to elect them, blah, blah, blah.

It's just a dumb thing to do.

Don't answer the Chinese.

Don't get a bad name-calling contest for that.

I would almost totally ignore it.

I mean, it's not that important to the don't-cares.

It's the UN.

We expect that.

I think we do.

Who's going to have to get to know who your general is?

No, I'm sending Commander Howe.

I think the Secretary gives it to him.

Well, you can just point him out to me, Mike, because you say the President noted that they had said in Stockholm he would respond, and he will not respond.

And in fact, in a restraining way, I've ordered a restraining response.

Why don't we just say that?

Let them pass that back to you.

We don't complain about the North.

We don't complain.

We understand that we've responded very strangely.

Well, that's the business of the Chinese and so forth.

We have to do that to make the dam blockade work.

Oh, that's right.

And they're just trying to run it.

We're not engaging their ships.

We're keeping them totally out of it.

But when the North Vietnamese go in and unload, we're just...

knocking the hell out of these things, and we really... What are we doing with destroyers?

Doing both aircraft and destroyers.

And destroyers are right in there close now, and they're just pecking them off.

And we've got to frustrate that, or it'll build, and then we will have a problem.

Yeah.

So they're doing quite well with it.

You think it's maybe an overflight of China territory?

It could be that, but the one that they complained about, we've just completed the investigation on, and we didn't do it.

We got a polite but strong rejoinder on that, telling them that it just did not happen, and we investigated it thoroughly.

They're confused in this mountainous area.

Their own regards were.

We picked up intercepts that they were confused themselves.

So I'm glad we've got a chance now not to be guilty.

This is the first time they hadn't been right.

The war is just looking...

Better every day.

Except for land stuff.

My land was a tiny thing.

Yeah.

But a great guy, you'll remember, he had it when we came in the office.

He was strong as bands, but he didn't strike that far.

Oh, he's a great painter.

Tiny.

That's right.

I was thinking that what we ought to do, Al, and you just said that, I think I'm giving the Medal of Freedom to, you know, most Austrian slaves.

I assume he has a wife.

Well, this is what we're checking on.

We've got a little problem there.

He's been estranged from his wife.

He just divorced her.

Does he have a son?

He has a family here.

He's got no legitimate family over there.

So I've asked the governor...

But can we give it to him without presiding over the officers?

This is the way I think we'll have to do it.

And we won't want to bring anyone here to receive it.

No, that's right.

We've got the legal next of kin.

I'm asking to check on them.

And you're saying that I'm the president of the awards interviews.

But I think we should do it.

Absolutely.

We're apt to, we sent a flash message to Bunker on the proposal, just so that he's aware and on board and there isn't any hooker that we don't know about that could come up as an embarrassment.

But I'm sure there is not.

I think it's just a healthy thing to do.

Sure, well, he's recognized the peace aspect of our Vietnam program.

That's what he was saying.

He was, and he was a

Well, he was just such a great combination of being an honest man, and when he saw things he didn't like, he complained, and he was personally very brave.

He was really martyred in the early days, you know, and we had that Harkins out there, that super dumb general.

Harkins was super dumb?

Oh, very dumb.

He was a dumb, dumb, dumb man.

I met him out there once, but he was just not very smart.

He was reporting back here, you know, that we were winning and winning, and...

Van was a lieutenant colonel with Fred Ladd, as a matter of fact.

And they both came back with direct reports of the effect that this is not so, that the thing was unraveling badly.

So Van got pretty well cashiered.

He had to quit the Army.

Fred Ladd sort of got shunned aside.

And they're both two honest men.

But otherwise, things are going well.

They're going very well.

Abrams is moving from C-52.

They hit this power plant last night.

They think they got excellent results.

They had a large, white, electronic-type explosion.

Didn't hurt the dam at all.

And they're taking photographs now.

We don't have a precise lead out in another 24 hours.

But they're right on target.

That's going to shake them up.

Because that won't cut the power off as well.

And they can't repair that easily.

That's taking two years to build.

Very sophisticated, modern equipment in there that they got from the Soviets.

And we have increasing signs that they're really shaking.

You mean from internal signs?

We're getting internal signs.

We're getting reporting from friendly East European, French, Polish reports of great consternation in Hanoi.

Now, some of the stuff that we're getting is actually a feedback of our own side work program.

But that's good.

That sort of gets it talked to, doesn't it?

That's it.

But our reporting is, you know, the reports on the war have been just damn good.

Even some of the doves are starting to really get nervous that this thing's going to work.

Mitchell has felt, I suppose, that many of you should temporize a bit our reports on the strikes and our getting on the rest.

Well, there's some wisdom in that, sir.

Not only that, they're trying to build sympathy for Hanoi now.

The best thing, the best thing is,

to get it from these East Europeans and from Peking, places like that, that's healthy.

And every time you read the dateline that it came from Peking or Poland, that is totally credible.

And we don't have to do so much here.

Right.

So you tell the fellows about us to let our actions speak rather than our words, Max.

Right.

It would be helpful to have Henry go on this trip this coming week.

I don't get a story.

It will help to detract a little bit from too much war.

Are you thinking the Chinese are going to cancel it?

Well, I don't think so.

They just haven't played it that way.

If they do, they've got a problem on their hands, too.

Because they know very well what to do with the Russians.

I just don't think they'll do that.

I think the two axes have Henry come over there for their own purposes.

Interesting that they're going through a private channel.

So it might be about three years of planning conditions.

Never worry about it every time you get these messages.

The Chinese have a message you can read, and it's a message you can read.

It's all exciting about it.

It makes you listen to just a variety of little things.

When do you take it out of the section?

Yes, sir.

Well, my man's meeting at 4 o'clock up there, and he just sees the female secretary for the ambassador.

And they'll just hand him the note.

I know that it's not that.

They would have asked for me if this was a cancellation.

that big, something big like that, they wouldn't do it this way.

I would get it back, though.

I don't think we should let them get away with just complaining.

If you will get back to them on the fact that we didn't respond, that I ordered a restrained response to their response on one hand, but on the other hand, that we did not work on the territory in this respect.

Well, that we're waiting until we see this.

We're going to go back up tomorrow or Monday

And we may want to complain.

If they come in tough, we may want to complain about their shooting from their ship, because that's an illegal act of war in its own right.

Oh, from a merchant?

Yes, sir, from a merchant ship.

Oh, that, on their part?

On their part.

They've been complaining to us, and it might be worth my complaining to them, if there's some reason for it.

But I think between now and Henry's trip, the best thing we can do is to keep everything

quiet firm in the private channel, no public.

No, don't let that environment thing such a waste of time anyway.

It's a little more of a big hassle.

Well, Secretary Rogers was talking tough to Ehrlich this morning.

He said, I'm going to take him on.

I told State there won't be .

He's always, always wanting to take a tough statement off the Chinese.

Always.

And never writing to her.

She wants to take on the Russians.

It's the damnedest thing I ever saw.

I just, I guess it goes straight back to the trip and the first instance, doesn't it?

Yes.

And he's always, uh, wants to rip the Chinese out of the house.

But that don't do anything to him.

That's our best card.

It's our trump card.

It's done everything for us.

There wouldn't have been any Russian deal without this.

No, we're just going to calm it down.

That's what I told you.

We're just going to be restrained in our response.

Stay in this position and get that damn conference over with and get these people home.

It's a silly plan.

I mean, the sweetest of everything.

He should have been kicked around.

Bad thought.

That's right.

And I think they put the fear of God in him.

Well, he promised to

avoid any more discussions.

Well, I read over, I finished the U.S. News piece and made a few additions.

I think it's a man good job.

I do, too.

It reads well.

As I said, if you read James Henry's 100,000-word world report, it's 10,000 words.

It's an intentional piece.

We need that.

We need something that people can read that isn't 100,000 words long.

And just to be very

Well, I've talked to some of these press people.

Our worst critics, these guys are just eating out of our hands.

They're really impressive.

Because of the Moscow trip and all that, you mean?

The Moscow, they had that up and down on the mining and all that.

succeed, and they're fearful it's going to work in addition to succeeding in terms of the sanction.

Well, actually, the main thing about the mining is not the effect on Hanover.

Up there, the effect of the battlefield, it's had a dramatic effect, hasn't it?

Yes, sir.

I mean, the darn war has turned around.

The war has turned around.

There's something...

I read the report that they joined up at Antelope out there.

Yes, they have.

They're still pecking along the road.

on both flanks of the 21st Division, but they are, they handle the road from the northernmost portion to into the perimeter.

Behind that's where the trouble is.

But it isn't serious.

They've lost their clout there.

There'll be a few packing, I think they'll disperse.

Well, there, too, I suppose the weather's beginning to get rough.

Well, it's getting tough for the big operations.

What I think they'll do is go for psychology now and break up into small groups

and try to hit little hamlets and villages and get a lot of PR splashed until they just totally lost it.

How's it around the way?

The way is excellent.

The Marines are up with five battalions south of Coventry in an operation that's been going on for two days now.

They're knocking out tanks.

They're not firing too many enemy, but they're moving way west of the perimeter.

To the west, the same thing.

The airborne has been going out.

and uh seizing the stocks that they pre-positioned for the attack i just they're going to make a good crack at it because it brought that new division in to do it 325. it's uh well we don't know really where it is we do know it's south of the bmz but i think they're going to take quantity back here and i think hugh is determined to do that

But the greatest thing of all was that canton, something we had written off.

And these little guys have just...

They fight in their corner.

They fight beautifully with their corner.

And it's been a great morale incentive to the South Vietnamese.

I talked to a French correspondent who's been close to us, a fellow named Dark Cora just came back.

And he'd been in Anlock.

And he said that the South Vietnamese army

is now mad as hell aggressive and really doing a magnificent job and he's he's not inclined to go to lily and he's fought with him he's been over there for him since the early since the world war ii he's been over there he says it's an entirely different war now an entirely different southeast attitude and capability

I'm just not sure they're going to be able to ride this thing out this time.

Well, they certainly shot everything, didn't they?

You know, it was hard to realize, but just five weeks ago, the three news magazines talked about the specter of defeat.

I recall that.

That's really, that's turned around, isn't it?

They're all eating crow this news week.

That's some of what they said.

Jewish editor up there in New York who is a real scum.

They're all scums.

I didn't realize.

But he's got to eat a little crow, isn't he?

Well, he's been eating.

Has he?

What's he saying?

Well, last week they admitted they were wrong on the money, and they... Admit it?

Well... Admit it.

They're backtracked.

That's right.

And at the South Vietnamese Attorney North, Henry Hubbard told me...

But he's really been helped because he's been putting the right stuff into the New York and they just ignored it.

And he was having a hell of a fight with his editor.

So now it looks better and better.

God, the greatest thing that could happen now is just to, as it turns out now, is basically to let the

i don't know i just made up any dance rationality at all i don't think so and especially if we're keeping good steady positive progress reports because the

The doves are frightened on this issue.

They're now starting to be worried to come out too far because if it collapses, and that's why we've got to keep a certain drumbeat of that, not too loud, but that they're in trouble and there is disorder up there because that keeps the unity in the base here.

And that's why I'm going to explain.

They're making their judgments on whether or not

It's worth hanging on with their fingernails until November.

And if they see the Americans are going to put you back in office, are not starting to erode and fall apart, your support isn't.

Well, one thing you ought to pass to Henry, there's a Gallifolk coming down Sunday showing a big lead over McGovern and a big lead over Humphrey.

Agreed.

14 boxes, something like that, with balls in, 19 points with him out.

And I just sent that to Henry to, you know, he had to feed that to the Japanese and get it out to certain orders there.

I think the idea that at the present time, despite my reverence,

You see, they see McGovern as the super gov, getting the Democratic nomination, and it encourages them to understand whether they see him also losing the election, and that's going to discourage them all.

That's right.

That's a very subtle interplay between now and November with Hanoi's calculation.

I think we're really hurting them with the bombing.

I think it's been

It's been very well done this time.

They've never gone through a dry season, you know, of bombing.

No.

No, Johnson stopped the bombing in May.

Oh.

He did it in May of 68.

It was a so-called temporary bombing halt, you see.

Oh, that was a damn bombing halt.

That's right.

So they never really had a good, solid three-month experience.

And now they've already had a month of it.

And I'm damn sure it's not a big deal.

Everything we see, Madam Ben, her statement is we've got to get the bombing off.

Somehow, we've got to get the bombing off.

They're less concerned about what's happening down south, because there they can disperse and disappear and come out.

When they decide to, they'll get out with some...

They won't stop the bombing.

That's the big problem.

They're never going to stop it.

We started it now.

We paid the price.

That's right.

They want to stop it.

They've got to pay a price.

Got to understand that.

That's right.

If the Russians boycotted that damn environmental conference, maybe they just didn't want to have a fight with the Chinese.

I think they didn't.

Maybe that was a bigger reason if they said it was because these Germans weren't there to go after them.

They were looking for an excuse.

They just didn't want to have a confrontation with the Chinese.

But isn't all that important what the Chinese say?

Not what they say publicly.

I mean, we went to China and made the big leap.

And we've always said that the Chinese and the Russians have very different goals than we have, a number of differences.

That's that.

So let's not... We're watching this and we're... You'll just get hurt.

The guy needs to do what he does here.

He'll take it.

He's not a very strong man.

He'll do what he's told him to do.

Oh, that's right.

He knows what it is.

But stage children don't jump into this thing.

They always want to be tough at the wrong time on the wrong issue.

Yeah.

You know, it's a funny thing.

I mean, never, never want to be, have wanted to be tough at the times I've had to be tough.

That's the real problem.

That's right.

Boy, if you look back over those series of events, May's decision and all the others, I mean,

from day one in the Middle East, Cuban, Jordan, South Asia.

That's what it turned out to be in a historic sense, one of the strongest parts of your tenure.

He's getting along very well.

He's being received well.

He's making a hell of an impact for these people.

I think he's enjoying himself.

We didn't let him have any of this harassment with Mnuchin.

Yeah.

I've got a good man with him.

What a... What's that name?

In reading reports, your trip thus far has been a great success.

I hope that the schedule is not so heavy that you're not...

I had the opportunity to enjoy yourselves.

At least go straight into a few-day rest.

I have time to make some more special regards.

Just out of that.

You know, he always helps Paul, because either he won this or anybody's paying any attention to him.

Exactly.

The American president.

But I'll bet she's getting a tremendous press down there.

She's a big name in those countries.

Oh, well, there was a solid plus to send him, especially now that he stopped in Bolivia with that little guy's in some trouble.

It's just a damn good thing to do at this time after the summit.

Yeah, I think that trip so far has gone very, very well.

Good.

That's about all.

Yes, sir.

Well, I think it's interesting.

I didn't expect this all through the summer.

In fact, they got to

I guess support those little bastards out there.

The Russians, too.

Probably have to do it.

They're trying.

We now see some evidence of truck traffic starting to build.

They knocked down 16 trucks yesterday.

Trying to move them at night in groups of about 50.

Down from where?

Down from China.

Of course, the satellite picked up a large gaggle of rail cars in China.

because of that railroad cut.

So they've resorted to the trucks.

But they can't move the tummage they need that way.

And also, you've taken out those truck bridges, too.

That's right.

So they're going to get their names across there.

Just going to take a massive amount of the bridges, I suppose.

Of course, they've shown remarkable will to do that.

But I think now they're really more hitting with it.

They'll never meet the need that way, and we've got to make it tough for them, which they're doing.

Everett's got the air now, and the battle lets down a little there.

He's really been hitting this panhandle area, southern part of North Vietnam.

And that's the south of his supply area?

Everything has to go through there, so you're getting it north of Hanoi, and you're getting it south of Hanoi.

just before it disperses into the tactical net.

Well, they estimated 5,400 in Khantoum alone in that week's effort.

Week's effort, yeah.

The 9th Division and 3 Corps, the 7th Division, the 5th,

The Frenchman told me as he flew over Anlark and a thousand feet in the helicopter, the stench of death was just unbelievable.

And that he had never in his experience ever seen anything like this.

This one battle.

I thought I had someone I could borrow holds from.

Oh, unquestioned.

Unquestioned.

Fine.

I'd like to know if you've got anything interesting to check.

Yes, sir.

Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and People's Republic of China

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Also recorded on June 10, 1972

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