Conversation 735-004

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Can I ask a question based on the introduction?

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are you?

Nice to meet you.

Yes, how are

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

We'd like to get a picture, and then we can have a little talk.

We'd like to lift them up.

Well, why don't you tell us how to set them up?

Why don't you, let's get the, you know.

Right here.

You hold them up.

Wait, no.

I want to be on the other side.

an explanation of that.

Because this is a what?

An explanation rather than a prison sentence.

Yeah, because, oh, I don't understand it.

It's not going to explain it to the press.

Right, right.

That's pretty much it.

Thank you.

And they have to stay in there to get any pressure on them.

Thank you very much.

Oh, I got a little gift for you, too, though.

Since we're not going to meet, we have a Mexican president.

We have a very good friend who makes watches, and he's made for each of you to follow through.

You've probably seen him here.

He makes a watch with his name on it.

It's a fine watch.

Here's a good one.

Yes.

So you, that's all you've got.

Sit down.

We'll have a talk.

Doctor.

We have some drawings.

That's right.

Well, I'll take a picture of this.

Yeah, we'll take a picture.

I've got to get mine a little too, don't I?

Yes, sir.

Well, let's do one piece at a time.

Yes, sir.

What this is...

Do we have something for the Mexican president tonight?

Yes.

That's similar to that, sir.

It's all fine.

Very well.

All right.

It says, it says presented to President Richard Anderson, with every good wish and our sincere hope that the geographical oneness of our two countries and the side of this policy will be photographed on the country flags that were carried through the board of policies being served by the community for a hundred, under mutual respect, understanding that friendship is often shared by the people of the United States of Mexico.

And we have the same thing

Sure, I see the Mexican flag.

I didn't catch it until I saw it.

What it is, is a picture that we took on the fall of 16th.

The best one that's ever been made.

Fortunately, the whole United States is open.

And so is almost all Mexico.

So you can see the two countries and borders right there.

There's Rio Grande and India.

Oh, America.

Rio Grande.

In other words, there's the U.S. and Mexico.

Yes, sir.

You took that from where?

Just after we completed the insertion.

You took it from the moon?

No, just on the way.

Just on the way.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I can see from that.

And what a great shot.

Well, I think the beauty of it is the country that did all that is right there in the middle.

That's right.

Let's have a little Americanism.

I'm so glad you worked it.

You worked it out.

I wonder if President Gineris basically the same thing, same advisor, who is it?

Ah, who is this?

This is that idea of arrangement.

It was used on the heat boy experiment and on the deep core that we retrieved.

And we brought it back as a souvenir and we'd like to present it to you soon.

This is it.

All right.

I'm glad you know what it is.

I'm very impressed.

Very impressed.

That little black surface on it probably means it didn't get off because it wasn't really very much.

You can get the kid back now.

Less than a minute before you go.

I know you've got to go.

I'll see you at the press.

after you announced it, that I went around talking to conservatives.

I went around talking to conservatives.

Even Senator Bob Martin.

Believe it or not.

One of the things that, of course, we run into is the cost and what is the system and all that sort of thing.

And let me say that my own view is that it is

is worth building for the two major space nations simply to start a long period of cooperation which we will think will lead to other cooperation in space.

In other words, it's worth building from that standpoint.

It's a beginning.

In other words, it's like the arms control thing.

So I told the congressman and senators this morning, I said, no, you can prove this defensive limitation.

You can prove it's limited.

which is interim agreement on offensive weapons.

But I think you must remember that when we start to negotiate a permanent agreement on offensive weapons with the Soviet Union, that we would be in a very bad position if we didn't continue our own offensive capabilities, which are not limited, because the Soviet are going to continue theirs.

Or, I said, if we did not continue ours, or we unilaterally reduced ours, we'd have a good negotiating position.

They'd have no incentive for them.

this also is a beginning it's a beginning of cooperating space looking forward 25 years when none of you will be able to probably make these flights let us suppose that uh i don't know whether it's in the cards but uh and i can study this

Suppose it's the Mars mission.

Suppose that one of the moons of Jupiter might have life on it.

But maybe not.

There's something out there that doesn't.

But my point is, when that happens, it's much better.

It seems to me that if you can, you do it on a direct basis.

Now, incidentally, another thing that I think ought to be emphasized, Mr. Flanagan,

That's going to be made available to other companies, I understand.

Scientists and others.

That's right.

I like the first one.

The shuttle is going to be the first one.

Well, the shuttle.

We'll make him refer to the shuttle.

But the shuttle is that Zaya Channel will be available to others.

That's right.

You see, we're telling the impression it should not be left, but only if so we can use it.

You might say that we consider, I consider, that cooperation with other countries interested in space should be our goal.

For example, the Japanese are very interested in this sort of thing.

This would be a hell of a thing for the Japanese.

You know what I mean?

They're terribly sensitive.

And of course, if they ever got into this, they'd be dissolved.

They have terms.

terrible drive and frustration of a defeated nation, you see, and that drives them on and spurs them on.

But be that as it may, the Japanese, the Europeans, I think the international cooperation is having a mind effect that the U.S. will continue to have naturally if it's on the space program.

Let me ask you one interesting side of that question.

Did you read Alan Perry's book?

saying about compressing.

I've got to send a copy to Agnew.

But that book is rather timely in view of the fact that we have announced this joint mission with the Soviets now.

And here, the question was, the Soviets were going to go off to Mars.

And did we improve?

Well, I think if we could join the Soviets in a venture towards Mars, that's going to take

You're going to do this by 75, right?

Is that your goal?

You're going to be docking in 75.

And you know by the end of the century what we'll be doing.

We've got a lot of other things cooked up, which we haven't really firmed up yet.

And also, by that time, perhaps, who knows?

We now are in basically a budget crunch.

And we're going through, in the United States, growing out of frustration about

war and the defenses of the ghettos and all that, and inward turning, and the great excitement of the first space experiments, of course, has receded.

I don't mean that there isn't a lot of excitement among a lot of people, but we don't have, you know, when they say they started cutting, they say, well, let's cut it out of space and put it in the ghetto, or let's cut down our number of carriers and put it in the ghetto.

Nevertheless, on the whole space, my view is it's a cycle.

My view is, very frankly, that I don't see the Soviet, despite this cooperation standing still, they're competitive.

They're tough.

They're not as good as we are for reasons of system.

But a totalitarian society, concentrated, can do what we do.

And they can afford an awful lot of wastage and seedage that's older than what the Germans sold into building the communist society.

My view is that, probably, what's going to spur us on, I wouldn't emphasize this at this moment, but what will spur us on is that they're going to take another turn.

And people here say, well, let's not let the United States fall back.

I don't mean that we look for jinglistic reasons.

But it's always been my theory that a great nation, to retain its

to retain its greatness, its ideals, call it what you want, must always strive to explore the unknown, the new worlds.

The moment that a nation turns inward, that it becomes insular, that it becomes parochial, it ceases not only to degrade in terms of being in worldly power, but it seems to cease to be covered in other ways.

That's what I came to understand.

Yeah.

Look at England.

Let's look at Austria.

Here's Austria, a lovely, beautiful country.

What the hell have the Austrians produced since they were disempowered after the end of the war?

Nothing.

Nothing in the way of writing music on it.

I don't mean not good people.

But my point is that here, we must seek to explore the unknown.

Also, we might find some.

But you've got to seek to explore

the boundaries of reason.

You can't take the adventure, the spirit of adventure, away from it.

That's it.

Well, I do want to use the example of the New World.

When America was discovered, those nations had stayed back.

You see, the British, the Spanish, and the rest of them, they moved out there to the New World with the French and others who wouldn't take the risk with the rest.

They never made it.

And so it is.

Now it's harder to understand.

And there are new worlds in space we all share.

There are new worlds in science, medicine, and all these things that most of us don't understand.

And it's harder to understand space.

But nevertheless, in this area, I think all of you followers, and I said this to others in your groups, you can be assured that despite the

You can't estimate that in terms of budget.

I don't think that we can go all well on the budget, because the Congress wouldn't allow that either.

But who knows what it means to the national spirit to have gone to the moon?

Who knows what it may mean to the national spirit?

And let's look at it.

I don't care who it is.

Maybe, of course, maybe the British, by that time, will recover.

Maybe the judges.

Let us suppose somebody

national spirit is a word that i have i don't think i've used before and i think that's well that's a good statement gentlemen are very good at uh getting that national spirit across mr president if you permit me that this must be exploring the unknown that's my point and i think i think one of the

One of the ways I would do it, so that you don't make, frankly, you have a lot of intellectuals.

Of course, he's one, but former, yeah.

You have a lot of intellectuals that don't make much of the space movement.

And anything, when I talk about the ghettos, good God, I don't mind all the ghettos who do everything, all these other things, and get rid of cancer, and hump the other.

But you can always say that the exploration

It means breakthroughs in technocracy.

It means breakthroughs in transportation.

But space is the unknown.

What's out there?

Go ahead.

I was just going to say that the public support this last couple of weeks, we've been on tour through about 19 cities now, 20 cities.

And we have had outstanding receptions in every case, from the Roxbury area of Boston, to Knoxville, Tennessee, to Minneapolis, St. Paul.

The public is behind the program.

Good.

At least the ones we've talked to.

That's great.

Well, you just continue to, it's part of, one of the things, I met your opposite numbers, the cosmonauts, when I heard.

You've met some of them.

Yes.

One, I met.

And there was a very interesting shirt.

The one thing that I noticed here is I noticed how similar you fellows are.

They're very husky.

All three of the Russians that I saw were very husky.

Although the Cosma, the woman Cosma, was not.

They maybe picked her for other reasons.

But the others, I don't mean that they were overweight.

But every astronaut that I've met is about my gear code.

I mean, I don't know why it is.

There must be reasons for picking it.

These guys are bold, big, burly guys.

One was not too tall, but he looked like a little sort of a running dog.

And the weight and restrictions are always there.

We're going to have a problem fitting them in that little... Well, you haven't had a problem.

I think it was the big guy.

You've seen him.

The one that came over here.

He's a big, fine looking guy.

I had a good talk with him there.

Correct.

On the last day.

I was interested in that program when I was in the airport.

It was too tall last time.

We'll have to encourage smaller people on it.

Barman has been over there yesterday.

Right through Russia.

Yes.

Tom Stanford also represented you at the funeral of the Cosmonauts.

Oh, yes.

What are we going to do?

Have you had any discussions, Archbishop, about what we do with regard to, in view of the fact that we have just made this announcement, this might not be a bad idea to have these fellows go over

somebody.

I'm just thinking of the fact that these three fellows can't leave because they're the backup crew.

Well, let's see.

Two of them are backup crew for the next one.

We'll get some others.

Oh, that's my point.

Alex, how does you and, I think it's got to be checked with the Kissinger staff to see what the Russians would like.

You see, we're having some more exchange.

I was just talking to the Mexican president, and he was first saying that all over Latin America there were terrible problems, and that we in the United States and other, particularly the United States, and our business team and the rest didn't know some of these problems.

They'd find another solution, which would be Castroism or communism.

And I was almost ready to say, well, the solution would be a lot worse than the problem.

Well, I think that a follow-up in terms of a well-publicized deal and also where, but an exchange where some of theirs came over and looked at what we have and we go over and look at what they have, it should not just be the, it should be somebody at the

on a technical level, I mean, on your side, you look at that, and somebody who has the glamour.

You don't have any glamour, do you?

No, not at all.

I don't need to, just so we do what's necessary.

Let me say that I won't get a chance, probably, to talk to you tonight, except for the receiving line.

You're going to Camp David, I hope.

Yes, we are.

We've cleared out the president and the next president today.

And I strongly urge you, because you've had this hard trip.

You have an arm's length to try.

But there's everything up there.

You've got to get here.

You're here to lose all the facilities.

There's one that I have.

Well, you can have a sauna if you like it.

And everything from golf carts to bicycle to ski shootings to tennis to golf.

I mean, a couple of gyros.

And bowling.

But mainly, one of the nice things you can do if you like it is good relaxation.

You have private movies.

They have this very good selection.

And the food.

The food is outstanding.

I'm setting up my own.

Well, Ron, you've got it all set up for us.

Well, you can deal with any of this that you like.

Well, we'll be able to find enough that they ask us to do it.

Oh, that's right.

Yes.

Obviously, this program is going to require, as you said, it's going to require a considerable amount of exchange of information and contact of astronauts and technicians and the rest.

And we're working on that with the Soviet people in their space program.

And then we want to bring other countries into the deal, too.

We hope that this is a step not only

This is the beginning.

This first document is the beginning.

And cooperation in other areas in space, that this works.

And second, also cooperation in space could lead to cooperation in other areas beyond space.

You see, that's another thing.

It works.

The other point is that this is something that we consider.

and our Soviet brothers, because they're big and strong and so forth, and they want to give you a girl.

That's very good.

OK. Well, good luck.

We'll see you tonight.

Black dogs, fancy girls, fancy wine.

Oh, thank you.

You want to do something?

Yeah, drink the wine.

Drink the, let me see.

I don't like champagne.

The white one.

We have the second one.

I don't want the wine, which is

We have to serve, but it's good.

But if you agree with your wife, you're allowed to talk to me.

They like to bite my hands.

You're welcome.

All right.

All right, everybody.

We won't be served, all right?

All right.

Yes, sir.

OK. You're going with that?

Yes.

Good.

You're going with it.

Not that damn hard of a race.

Try something here.

Oh.

OK.

Your call is after the dinner tonight, Alex.

I present that to, uh, I get up there and present that to the president next door.

Yes, thank you.

We have a special reason to do that.

a number of distinguished guests, but among them are three.

And they will step forward.

And then I'll have Young lead the citation.

I said, Commander Young, if you please.

Yes, those guests can do it all along with another guest.

Definitely.

That's right.

You'll have to get President Chavarria up before then.

standing before the people as you