{"conversationCode":"739-010","tapeNumber":739,"conversationNumber":10,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-739-010","startDateTime":"1972-06-21T16:38:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-06-21T17:22:00.000Z","startDate":"21-Jun-1972","startTime":"12:38 PM","endDate":"21-Jun-1972","endTime":"1:22 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Rockefeller, Nelson A.; Volpe, John A.; Javits, Jacob K.; Buckley, James L.; Ehrlichman, John D.; Gifford, William L.; Ronan, William A.; Butterfield, Alexander P.; [Unknown person(s)];","description":"On June 21, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Nelson A. Rockefeller, John A. Volpe, Jacob K. Javits, James L. Buckley, John D. Ehrlichman, William L. Gifford, William A. Ronan, Alexander P. Butterfield, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:38 pm to 1:22 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 739-010 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 739-10\n\nDate: June 21, 1972\nTime: 12:38-1:22 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Nelson A. Rockefeller, John A. Volpe, Jacob K. Javits, James L.\nBuckley, John D. Ehrlichman, William L. Gifford, William A. Ronan, and Alexander P.\nButterfield.\n\n[Members of the press and the White House photographer were present at the beginning of this\nmeeting]\n\nGreetings\n\nMass transit grant in New York\n\nBond issue\n\nMass transit grant\n    -Purchase of new subway cars\n    -New York City transit\n           -Compared to Moscow transit system\n    -Need for leadership\n           -John V. Lindsay\n           -Ronan\n           -Business community\n\nThe President's previous conversation with Arthur F. Burns\n     -Burns's trip\n           -Importance of leadership\n     -Relation of political stability to capital investment\n           -Cuba\n                 -Fidel Castro\n           -Chile\n                 -Stability\n                     -Effect on investment\n           -Brazil\n                 -Emilio Garrastazu Medici\n           -The President’s previous conversation with Luis Echeverria Alvarez\n\nGrumman aircraft\n    -F-14 fighter plane\n          -Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr.\n          -Contract re-negotiation\n    -Space shuttle\n          -Number of jobs in New York and California\n          -McDonnell-Douglas\n          -F-14 contract re-negotiation\n               -Zumwalt\n          -National Aeronautics and Space Administration [NASA]\n               -James C. Fletcher\n    -Financial condition\n          -Lockheed\n    -Space shuttle\n          -Funding\n          -Ghettos\n\n               -Employment\n               -Cooperation with Soviet Union\n               -The President’s view\n                     -F-14 production\n                     -McDonnell-Douglas\n                     -Procurement\n          -F-14s\n               -Israel\n                     -Possible purchase\n\n     The President's previous conversation with Burns\n          -Israel\n                -Acquisition of arms\n                -Soviet intervention\n                      -Role of US President\n                          -US policy\n                                 -Defense policy\n                                 -Military forces\n                          -Jordan crisis\n                                 -US actions\n                -US policy\n                      -Summit conferences\n                          -Reasoning\n                          -Chou En-Lai\n                          -Leonid I. Brezhnev\n                          -Will of the US\n                                 -US interests\n                                       -Burundi\n                                       -Middle East\n                                       -Europe\n                                       -Japan\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 10/24/2022.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[739-010-w003]\n[Duration: 1m 54s]\n\n     The President’s previous conversation with Arthur F. Burns\n          -George S. McGovern\n               -Credibility\n\n                       -Congress\n                       -The President\n                  -The President’s conversation with Herbert Stein\n                       -Legislative history\n                       -George S. McGovern’s positions\n                       -Tax reform bill\n                       -Nomination\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n      Defense budget\n          -Congress\n                -People's Republic of China [PRC] and the Soviet Union\n          -Importance of strength\n                -Volpe’s trip to Soviet Union\n                -Catholic Church\n\n      Rockefeller’s role in New York City\n          -Lindsay [?]\n\nRockefeller, Javits, Buckley, Gifford, and Ronan left at 1:08 pm.\n\nJohn A. Volpe, Jr. entered at 1:08 pm.\n\n      Greetings\n\n      Presentation of gifts by the President\n\n      Rockefeller\n\nVolpe and Volpe, Jr. left at 1:10 pm.\n\n      Ehrlichman's conversation with Elliot L. Richardson\n           -Welfare reform\n                -Department of Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]\n           -House Resolution [HR] 1\n           -Higher Education bill\n\nThe President left at an unknown time after 1:10 pm.\n\nEhrlichman talked with an unknown person at an unknown time between 1:10 and 1:22 pm.\n\n[Conversation No. 739-10A]\n\n     Ehrlichman's schedule\n\n[End of telephone conversation]\n\nThe President entered at an unknown time before 1:22pm.\n\n     Ehrlichman's conversation with Richardson\n          -Higher education bill\n               -Possible veto\n                    -Busing\n                    -Stephen J. Roth decision\n\nAn unknown person entered and left at an unknown time before 1:22pm.\n\n     Refreshments\n          -Ehrlichman’s schedule\n\n     Ehrlichman’s conversation with Richardson\n          -Higher education bill\n               -Possible veto\n               -Irving Kristol's book\n                     -Warren E. Burger\n               -Education\n                     -The President\n               -George S. McGovern\n               -The President's conversation with Caspar W. Weinberger\n                     -Other veto possibilities\n          -Higher education\n               -Richardson\n                     -As an industry\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 10/24/2022.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[739-010-w005]\n[Duration: 2m 51s]\n\n     1972 campaign\n         -George S. McGovern\n              -John D. Ehrlichman’s conversation with Roy Wilkins\n\n                     -Roy Wilkins’ leadership of movement\n                     -Roy Wilkins’ support for the President\n                          -Busing\n                          -George S. McGovern\n                -Programs\n                     -The President’s conversation with Herbert Stein\n                -Proposals of the Congressional Black Caucus\n                     -Patrick J. Buchanan\n                          -George S. McGovern’s endorsement\n                     -Costs of programs\n                -Credibility\n                -Barry M. Goldwater\n                -The President’s credibility\n                     -Possible campaign plan\n                          -Media\n                                 -George S. McGovern’s positions\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n     Busing\n          -Robert P. Griffin\n          -Richard G. Valeriani\n\n     Richardson\n         -Welfare reform\n\nEhrlichman left at 1:22 pm.","filename":["739-010.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:29:55","tapeEnd":"04:15:26","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Rockefeller, Nelson A.","Volpe, John A.","Javits, Jacob K.","Buckley, James L.","Ehrlichman, John D.","Gifford, William L.","Ronan, William A.","Butterfield, Alexander P.","[Unknown person(s)]"],"prevCode":"739-009","nextCode":"739-011","transcript":[{"start":1.4,"end":2.36,"text":"Well, here he is."},{"start":2.38,"end":5.96,"text":"I can't make for being late, but I'll tell you, anybody that's late can think of me."},{"start":5.98,"end":6.68,"text":"He makes good money."},{"start":6.7,"end":6.68,"text":"92?"},{"start":6.72,"end":8.74,"text":"92?"},{"start":6.76,"end":8.74,"text":"Well, I tell you, John, why don't you get someone else?"},{"start":8.78,"end":10.04,"text":"Somebody to be here on time."},{"start":10.44,"end":11.96,"text":"Well, I'm not too worried."},{"start":12.04,"end":16.99,"text":"I'm sure he'll be waiting to hear you explain."},{"start":21.39,"end":42.36,"text":"Mr. President, we are just thrilled and"},{"start":44.28,"end":48.78,"text":"Let me say, give a lot of credit to our friend John Bolton."},{"start":48.8,"end":50.08,"text":"Now, he pushed us into the Congress."},{"start":51.99,"end":52.87,"text":"and he advocated and so forth."},{"start":52.89,"end":53.85,"text":"I hope you can get some of the money spent soon."},{"start":53.87,"end":55.23,"text":"Well, Bill's got a very old suggestion."},{"start":55.25,"end":56.67,"text":"Maybe... We're getting ready to work."},{"start":56.69,"end":60.15,"text":"Listen, Paul, if you could, at that time where I... You ready to get what you got?"},{"start":60.19,"end":62.21,"text":"Maybe, Mr. Paul, you could come up for it."},{"start":62.23,"end":66.85,"text":"They're not breaking the second man with your stuff, are you?"},{"start":66.87,"end":76,"text":"And riding the first car, the new Christian car in the neighborhood."},{"start":76.1,"end":77.08,"text":"Tell John..."},{"start":78.08,"end":80.92,"text":"We wait and they're still running."},{"start":81.32,"end":91.23,"text":"We wait and they're still running."},{"start":91.29,"end":102.84,"text":"We wait and they're still running."},{"start":140.29,"end":156.88,"text":"way back."},{"start":168.68,"end":169.9,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":169.92,"end":171.28,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":189.6,"end":191.75,"text":"Up and down."},{"start":191.76,"end":193.03,"text":"There's money to be used for part of that."},{"start":193.09,"end":193.91,"text":"Part of the second half or so."},{"start":193.93,"end":195.07,"text":"No, the cross-connection."},{"start":195.11,"end":197.57,"text":"The cross-connection."},{"start":197.93,"end":200.06,"text":"We have authorized for this."},{"start":204.47,"end":225.31,"text":"1917, that's all we're going to talk about it."},{"start":227.03,"end":233.67,"text":"and the rest of the $66 million will be to buy 320 new, yet commissioned subway cars for the whole system."},{"start":234.13,"end":236.74,"text":"For the IMEV&T system, the present system."},{"start":238.2,"end":240.84,"text":"Tell my boys to turn up at the Old Street and allow us."},{"start":240.88,"end":250.03,"text":"We have 1,000 cars, and we'll have enough money to buy another 300."},{"start":250.41,"end":251.29,"text":"We'll probably do 720."},{"start":252.71,"end":254.41,"text":"We have 7,000 cars in all of this."},{"start":255.41,"end":282.9,"text":"You know, I used to think, I had a question, you know, you always ask me that question, but I remember when I was in the fire, I used to go to the church, and I recall going there just before going into the service, and I was here, and I was here, and I said, of course, being there, I can't believe it's I who's going to go to the church, and I used to go to the church, and I went to the church, and I was like,"},{"start":297.93,"end":298.33,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with New York political and business leaders, including Nelson Rockefeller and John Volpe, to discuss federal mass transit grants and funding for new subway cars in New York City. The conversation expanded into a wide-ranging policy discussion covering international relations, the defense budget, and the procurement of military hardware like the F-14 fighter jet. In the final portion of the meeting, Nixon and John Ehrlichman reviewed legislative priorities, specifically focusing on welfare reform, the higher education bill, and political strategy regarding the 1972 presidential campaign against George McGovern.","topics":["Mass transit","New York City","Defense spending","F-14 fighter jet","1972 presidential campaign","Higher education policy","Welfare reform"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T03:38:51.227Z"},"topicSlugs":["mass-transit","new-york-city","defense-spending","f-14-fighter-jet","1972-presidential-campaign","higher-education-policy","welfare-reform"],"audioDurationSec":305,"audioFiles":[{"file":"739-010.mp3","bytes":12188672,"durationSec":304.53,"bitrate":320200,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:57.689Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:25.449Z","transcriptGapSeconds":58,"transcriptGapShare":0.19,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/739-010.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/739-010","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/739/conversation-739-010","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}