Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 754-008
Date: Wednesday, July 26, 1972 at 7:45 AM
Participants: United States Secret Service agents; [Unknown person(s)]
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/754-008

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:19] card Congress, you know.
[0:22] Yeah, buy now, pay later.
[0:23] Right.
[0:24] Pay later.
[0:24] And he did a good job.
[0:28] He's always, he's always a very good man.
[0:32] He's always responsible.
[0:33] He doesn't make mistakes.
[0:35] He's so concise.
[0:37] And also, he's got a hell of an honest face, isn't he?
[0:40] And he's great.
[0:41] I mean, he's responsive.
[0:43] He's direct, and he doesn't create the impression, like some do, that he's holding something back.
[0:49] He'll come right out and talk, you know, straight.
[0:55] What's that?
[0:56] Oh, no, that's all right.
[1:12] That's why much as we love George Shultz and others, that the beauty of John is that he's forceful and direct and clear.
[1:24] John would make a hell of a candidate.
[1:26] He would.
[1:27] He's a candidate type.
[1:28] He really is.
[1:29] He likes people.
[1:31] At least he gives that impression.
[1:33] He doesn't like that much physical work, though.
[1:39] That's where he falls out as a candidate.
[1:41] Very.
[1:41] He doesn't like to push himself that much, does he?
[1:44] Uh-huh.
[1:44] John certainly likes to take his time.
[1:46] And he works like a son of a gun, but when he goes down to take time off, he takes it off.
[1:52] But he never goes into high gear, though.
[1:55] He always moves along slowly.
[1:57] But you know, one of the things about the invasion, if you had a lawyer, you had to beat a lawyer.
[2:03] kind of a man that you would always have.
[2:05] He has the same quality as Mitchell does, in that respect.
[2:07] Cool, unflappable, you know?
[2:11] That's the kind of lawyer you want.
[2:12] I don't want any lawyer that's excitable.
[2:16] I mean, all that.
[2:17] Believe me, don't tell everybody you want to hear that, too.
[2:22] Well, I decided, I was talking to Bob, that I thought that possibly we ought to not do that press anymore because of the interest.
[2:34] I was asking about this morning.
[2:44] Well, I see this is the first time I've been before the whole break.
[2:50] Since it happened, it happened after the briefing.
[2:53] So I've never been in a briefing situation.
[2:55] So I was asking.
[2:56] They had asked about it.
[2:57] And the question came on the basis of whether or not you had directed Clark McGregor.
[3:03] that there would be no comment on the matter.
[3:04] I said, yes, as a matter of fact, he did.
[3:06] Of course, the president's always thought that there should be comment on personal matters.
[3:09] He said it again yesterday, that he directed that.
[3:13] And they said, who does this apply to?
[3:16] I said, it applies to anyone.
[3:17] They said, vice president.
[3:18] I said, this applies to anyone who is in a position to speak authoritatively and the responsibility of the position to speak authoritatively.
[3:28] I said, that's the president's view.
[3:29] Well, did he send out a memo?
[3:31] I said, no.
[3:31] As a matter of fact, he said it yesterday.
[3:33] And you'd be surprised how fast the word goes out.
[3:36] But they got a kick out of it.
[3:39] Then I was asked, Gary Hart, McGovern's man, said in the breakfast this morning that he felt there should be reciprocity.
[3:48] In other words, that all candidates, he said, release their financial, medical, and mental records.
[3:55] So I was asked about that, and I smiled.
[3:59] And I said, Gary Hurt's in there?
[4:02] And he said, yes.
[4:02] I said, where?
[4:03] I didn't see it on the wires.
[4:05] Then the guy said, well, the backgrounder this morning.
[4:07] I said, well, he did.
[4:08] He did.
[4:09] I said, well, of course, he did that.
[4:10] I said, that was John Wood.
[4:12] In 1968, when the president was a candidate, he just went right away from it.
[4:17] Because it's true.
[4:17] Sure.
[4:18] You did.
[4:19] We put out your whole thing.
[4:20] Your whole thing.
[4:21] I remember doing it.
[4:23] But I thought it was better just to...
[4:33] You know, Rose had shown me that she had just called Hutschnecker, who was, of course, a very good friend of ours, as well as him.
[4:41] And he said, wouldn't you know, they had two calls on the Washington Post and the other from Newsweek.
[4:46] And he said, yes, they said aye.
[4:50] And in an early bit, he said the president used to come to me.
[4:53] He was a senator when I was an internist.
[4:56] But after that, when he was vice president,
[5:01] in the field of psychiatry, he was not good at consulting.
[5:09] Which is the truth.
[5:09] He basically, I think, he's probably one of the best insurance in the world.
[5:16] But then he's so good at this field that he's saying, oh, that makes more money.
[5:22] I'll let him get some of that.
[5:23] No, no, that's dirty bullshit.
[5:26] No.
[5:26] No, I thought we had talked about it.
[5:28] So I just said that was done.
[5:30] So there'd be no pressing you when it's .
[5:33] No.
[5:34] So I said that was done when the president was candid in 1968.
[5:39] And then they said, well, they followed it up by saying, well, what did the president favor doing?
[5:44] I said, look, I'm not going to have any further comment on this matter, because the president is so direct, period.
[5:49] And so that's it.
[5:51] What do they think?
[5:52] They're going to catch agonists on it?
[5:54] I don't know.
[5:55] They were following up on the Q&A.
[5:58] That's right.
[5:59] There's been no hinting at that.
[6:02] There's no hinting at a drive on this.
[6:04] I think one thing about it that nobody's going to believe as far as this is either acting or acting.
[6:10] They may believe other things.
[6:11] We've been worked over four years, for God's sake.
[6:13] If there's anything they could have gotten if you were acting, it would be way farther than that.
[6:18] We've been worked over for ages.
[6:20] When you hadn't been for all that time.
[6:24] Yeah, I didn't sense that bill being out.
[6:26] Now I'm coming closer.
[6:29] I do handle it.
[6:30] They ask me about it.
[6:31] Just sit around and handle it.
[6:44] Oh, he's a fascinating man.
[6:46] Doctor, have you ever seen him?
[6:48] A little guy with a rabbit.
[6:50] He has a terrible little dick.
[6:52] It's terrible.
[6:53] an Austrian Jew, but he is just fascinating to talk to.
[7:10] Great, just great.
[7:11] But he told us, he said, he said, this may happen.
[7:20] Because it appears that this view
[7:22] mentioned by one of the psychiatrists, and I was going to say, now what do they say?
[7:29] You've got the psychiatrist who'll say, oh, we can get a whole range, because there's no agreement on any other of those.
[7:35] Basically, you've got to be
[7:55] Well, how did he look on today's show?
[7:57] Well, he was, I thought, very temperamental.
[7:59] Abernathy asked him a question as to whether or not there was any depression involved.
[8:03] And he said, initially, well, I've covered all that.
[8:06] I'm not going to cover it again.
[8:07] She stopped right there.
[8:09] Then Abernathy continued depressing.
[8:12] I mean, continued depressing in a hard way.
[8:14] He said, well, now, Senator, this has been made available.
[8:20] The health of the man running for vice president is of key importance to the American people.
[8:24] I'm going to ask you this question.
[8:25] Scott covered it all before.
[8:27] And then Abernathy pressed him again.
[8:29] And then he began to build into the defense of Usher.
[8:31] He would not restate it, or he would not say anything at all about it.
[8:38] And then Abernathy said, but Senator, there are two matters involved here.
[8:42] Not only the fact that you helped me, but there's a question of judgment as to why you did not inform him.
[8:50] Senator McLaughlin has this Abernathy curse.
[8:53] So they just Bob Abernathy.
[8:57] But no, he's not.
[8:58] So then they went through that.
[9:00] He's not the worst.
[9:01] The whole interview was consumed with Abernathy asking him not to respond.
[9:05] He was about five minutes.
[9:07] And then at the end, of course, oh, then Abernathy asked a very interesting question, which the guy totally blew.
[9:12] He said, well, now, Senator, he said, don't you think this will give you a good opportunity throughout the campaign to really educate
[9:21] a lot of Americans about the fact that you can recover.
[9:26] And the guy dropped them all.
[9:31] He didn't pick up at all.
[9:34] He just said, well, education is not brought about by repetition.
[9:41] And then they cut back to New York.
[9:43] Oh, and then Abernathy said, well, I hope we'll be able to interview you again when we'll be talking about some other issues.
[9:49] They cut back to Frank Blair, who said, before they went to a commercial, I'm sure the political realities are that Bob Abernathy will not be the last reporter to ask Senator Eagleton about this matter.
[10:22] That's true.
[10:23] What kind of treatment would he have had, and how he would handle it?
[10:27] You were telling me this morning.
[10:31] How he'd handle it, what the person had said.
[10:33] He said he'd talk too much, but go ahead.
[10:36] Well, he said that Eagle can talk too much, that any student would know that he was in that shape, that they do not give shock treatment, you know, quickly and easily.
[10:49] He really thinks, you know, that it's a very serious thing.
[10:54] Still, I don't think he thinks it's cured.
[10:58] Well, no, you never said it's cured.
[11:01] He didn't say that, but I know you're not.
[11:04] You're not sure you're cured of anything in life.
[11:06] I was talking about the thing about this, and it's going to be very much a problem for me, and I don't think for anybody to be hit.
[11:16] But everybody is, to an extent, hypochondriac.
[11:20] From the time Eisenhower had a heart attack, he worried about having another one.
[11:24] And by the time he had a stroke, he worried about having another one.
[11:27] And Johnson, that's not Johnson's problem.
[11:30] He didn't have another heart attack.
[11:31] He just thinks he does.
[11:32] Now, this, of course, is the Hutschner theory, the psychosomatic thing and all that.
[11:36] He says that, and I agree with him, the British scientists carry it to the extreme.
[11:41] But he believes that almost all illnesses are directly related to mental illness.
[11:46] stress.
[11:47] And I think that is true half the time.
[11:50] Let me tell you what Elton said about it.
[11:52] He said that people go through these things as a strong man.
[11:58] It makes, you know, somebody who's really strong, it makes stronger by, anyone's depressed when, we'll say they're through a big thing.
[12:08] People have depressions after any big battle.
[12:11] That's right.
[12:11] But if you go through it and you're all right, it makes you stronger.
[12:15] If you collapse, as he has done, it makes you weaker.
[12:17] Is that what he said?
[12:19] Yes.
[12:19] Very good.
[12:19] It's probably, that makes sense to you, doesn't it?
[12:23] Well, sure, if you can take it, then you're a stronger person.
[12:27] But if you can't take it, and these are, for all practical purposes, each one of these was a nervous breakdown.
[12:35] So she said, I mean, that's what it is.
[12:38] Well, that's right.
[12:41] It is explained that way.
[12:43] There's three breakdowns.
[12:45] Yeah.
[12:59] I remember Kyle saying, he has to stay in.
[13:02] You have to stay in almost forever to get your share out of the retirement fund.
[13:06] Oh, yeah.
[13:07] So just letting that out.
[13:10] That's the way they keep it, John.
[13:13] Sure, after all the years Kyle put in there, I think he paid a grand total of $8,000.
[13:18] Really?
[13:18] Yeah.
[13:18] Because they made it out of profit sharing the thing, and the mirror was losing money.
[13:24] So after all the years and all Kyle called me to do for that paper,
[13:28] But that and the Channers were probably half billionaires.
[13:33] They should have settled with $80 million.
[13:35] I'm sure they should have, but they didn't.
[13:38] I'm surprised.
[13:38] That's something they ignored generally.
[13:40] Well, he didn't know that.
[13:43] Sweetest guy.
[13:47] That paper is just impossible.
[13:49] I think it's just bad as a post.
[13:52] Oh, fair enough.
[13:53] Is that bad?
[14:01] That's right.
[14:05] And it should be your paper.
[14:18] It's interesting.
[14:19] That might, you know, it'll certainly bump the negative acting issue.
[14:23] It might even make that an answer.
[14:26] Because where Grant's acting has very, very serious liabilities,
[14:31] The one greatest strength he has is dignity, composure.
[14:37] He's cool under pressure.
[14:39] He's never, in these meetings we have with me and the NSC and all the big decisions, Agnew sits around, sits across like an iceberg.
[14:48] And frankly, Bill might be shaky.
[14:51] Mel will be a little bit.
[14:52] The boys get pitched.
[14:53] Henry will be, you know, Agnew, quiet, and just as cool as he can be.
[15:05] On the basis of coolness, I would take anything over any nose.
[15:08] Absolutely.
[15:09] Because under fire, he's a very strong man.
[15:12] I may make the wrong decision, but by and large, I want a man that's strong.
[15:15] Yeah.
[15:16] Don't you?
[15:19] But he would never be a tough one.
[15:22] And nobody even thinks of him that way.
[15:25] Even people who maybe don't like him for some other reason or something.
[15:29] He is a strong man.
[15:30] There's no doubt about that.
[15:36] When you weigh, you may not like the weight.
[15:37] You know, there's a letter in Frank's assertion that he kicks the kids around here that he doesn't like the press.
[15:42] But when you weigh those deficiencies against the other one, you have no questions.
[16:18] You will work, as I said.
[16:20] You, of course, know it.
[16:37] I have done two things, and maybe you wanted to turn one or both off.
[16:42] First, I had indicated to Haig that Haig should call and say that the president directed that Governor Wallace would like an invite to give him a briefing on national security and national defense and foreign policy matters.
[16:59] He would be glad to at any time.
[17:00] Would you like for that to go forward now or not?
[17:04] All right.
[17:04] The second point, of course, I have already indicated, and I don't go about this morning after our conversation, that he was to work out a plan where McGregor or I was even thinking somebody like Johnny Rhodes of the platform committee or somebody like that would indicate to Governor Walzman a very significant contribution to the national debate on these issues and that we certainly have in mind that some of these
[17:33] For example, our busing plank is right down his alley.
[17:37] I mean, and the new summary this morning, so it indicates.
[17:40] Now, I think one thing we could do on that, on the busing plank, I might even, I was even thinking if we could have a discreet way to have somebody just take it to him and show it to him and see if he thinks of it.
[17:53] What do you think?
[17:54] Who's, who, let's see, Snyder, Snyder, and say that we've,
[18:05] say from our side should we have, let's see, let's see, Harry Dent maybe, that too is ridiculous.
[18:15] How about Ed Martin?
[18:16] How about, I'll tell you, how about Ed Martin?
[18:20] Yeah, they would know, he worked around here in the South anyway, and he's handled all this segregation thing and talks to all this stuff.
[18:35] Great.
[18:41] Right.
[18:43] Yes, sir?
[18:43] Yes, sir.
[18:44] Well, I'll... Yeah.
[18:48] We can do that with one other...
[18:50] I can have it.
[18:50] If you want to get a little closer, I can have a client say something.
[18:55] You know, just gets out.
[19:00] You know, a client or...
[19:04] No, maybe that's the White House.
[19:06] I think that's too close.
[19:08] I agree it should be the campaign.
[19:10] I think you're right with that either.
[19:12] I think that's a great recommendation.
[19:15] And our role is in the platform.
[19:17] I'll get that one done.
[19:31] I do want to sit down with them so that they know that I've done that with
[20:40] Because there are times when you've got to go balls out, even when you're dead.
[20:45] Balls out.
[20:46] It's because the LACVS are conceited.
[21:09] Bill Rogers, it's a major failure because he has so many other .
[21:17] But I know Henry will say anything.
[21:19] I'll say anything.
[21:21] Bill just can't help but say, oh, yeah, I know about that.
[21:25] Yeah, I've heard that already.
[21:26] Yeah, we've done that information.
[21:27] Yeah, I know about it.
[21:30] So I'm not going to do it.
[21:32] About 80% of the time, when people come to tell me I've heard
[21:39] I don't, but at first it's courteous.
[21:41] And second, you never know, you might become some.
[21:44] And there was a man, there was a poor man, a man that I saw in government who was the best at that, was Brownell.
[21:49] Really, Brownell, this is what he was looking for.
[21:52] I heard Brownell, who virtually did everything.
[21:56] But he, you start talking to someone, and he just listened.
[22:04] All of us, all of us, all of us.
[22:06] And then he started questioning, and a lot of us,
[22:10] But he was never one to step into the unknown about that.
[22:13] See what I mean?
[22:15] It's a marker, but I'd rather it's a marker of smallness.
[22:18] You're trying to prove that you're .
[22:50] I guess it's that thing, the hymn thing.
[22:54] Of course, that's all right, I think, don't you think?
[22:58] No, I was watching it on television last night.
[23:00] I don't care.
[23:01] I never do it, but I just wondered.
[23:02] I don't think it is.
[23:04] Not for a press conference.
[23:05] I think it's okay if they were at a picnic.
[23:07] You know, they were getting filmed at a picnic or something.
[23:12] But when you have a serious press conference and you're on explaining, I just have a feeling you should
[23:26] I don't know.
[24:02] I don't think if they had planned it that way, they would have went and handled it that way.