Nixon, Train & Cahn on Council on Environmental Quality

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Good to see you.

the four of us will walk after that out there

Well, we're going to monitor

What's John doing back there?

I don't think he's going to be able to do that.

He's going to be able to do that.

I don't think he's going to be able to do that.

uh we should have done this

We've seen a lot of outrageous things about the do-bitters and the environmentalists and so forth.

As hard as we try, it's just almost impossible to do anything right.

Did you see that news?

Yes, sir.

We're going to send Secretary Romney up there today.

I want to talk to him.

Help us move in.

Get a man who doesn't know or something.

You don't have to tell him that.

But I mean it up.

The thing is, here we put it, you know, for a huge amount of money.

The bill has been passed, right, Monday.

But we have people up there today...

People have not had to hear us, but of course, we met with 500 mayors down here on Friday.

And so they all think we're not doing anything.

Well, we are.

What is this?

It's primarily, I think, the friction between the people and the bureaucrats that are administering these programs.

The fact that they get delayed, and they can't get what they want right away, and they can't find the right guy to talk to you.

So it's just a typical frustration of kind of mesh to the damn government.

And a lot of those employees are untrained.

Some of them are Pennsylvania people that they've picked up to help people fill out forms, and they don't know the answers and so on.

And that's the fact that there's a lot of learning to be learned.

So great job.

They, uh, they still aren't in their homes.

And they're, uh, uh, sad to think about it.

I don't know.

I don't know what to hear.

Disaster.

So, well, it's not a big deal, but they used to sit in the same room as Wilkes-Barre and the parents turned red.

You just see them being watered.

They're so depressed and discouraged.

That part of the country, frankly, is going down anyway, you know, because of the cold and the stream and everything.

It just, you know, what they're concerned about is people not moving around.

Here's your, uh, my med books.

These are the new comics.

Oh, great.

Thank you very much.

Well, uh, well, uh, it seems that in this field, it's, uh, it's kind of like this, you know,

It's kind of like inflation.

I was thinking that since August of last year, we've come to a rate of inflation and a half.

The more we do, the more people sweep about it.

And I understand that because of the mean prices or some other part of it.

People really expect perfection in life and government.

Well, not in themselves.

Well, it depends on the population.

That's it.

At least we thought that that was something.

but we try.

But here, in this case, I mean, after all of the falls, I mean, and we tried, we poured a lot of money into this effort.

We made speeches over the concrete and so forth and so on.

And I think to an extent that you could take comfort in the fact that you have at least dedicated some movement on the issue.

I mean, the issue is not as

Well, I remember in that movie, the little girl, the little boy, you know, didn't want to go swimming.

He didn't want to eat anything because the water was polluted and so forth.

He just looked at the practice book and it was polluted.

I think a lot of the fear is this.

I think they make a lot.

Would you agree or not?

I think maybe all I read, you know, I read the news every day and I read that somebody's raising hell and we didn't do this or we didn't do that.

And I realize, you know, we should know more.

But we've got to have done something.

I hate the public.

The only thing is that we have done something.

Well, John says, told us at the gate that we made some progress this year, right?

Absolutely.

I'm a partner.

Yes, sir.

Let these things stand now.

It is not a hot issue.

No, it's not.

It's a concern, but it's been defused in odd moments.

Could you simplify the question?

Okay.

It's still very, very important.

Yes.

And all I want to do is recognize the very city of Malibu.

Some of the things that these people are doing is wrong.

Lots of times, you blame the national government for not doing more of it.

I have a goal that's a level.

A level that's predicting those who need to leave us here in Malibu.

I think it's very important to consider these things in some perspective.

I mean, if you go old, I mean, I understand why you say go old, but I mean, actually, I think it's important that there are a lot of people who get involved in all these things.

And also, the environment, the speakers, the use of other lands, the rest of the world.

Going to the point where...

We worship nature for the sake of nature and nature.

Very few individuals get to see it.

It's like my lack of eye ever.

I don't want to meet you people.

Well, and I have to say, people watch all the time.

And for a while, it was the greatest beach in the world.

With 200 people on board and a lot of people.

Because it was 200 people.

And no restrooms out there.

I mean, no way that older folks would go because it was too hard to find.

Snakes wouldn't run around.

And then you go out to the beaches to look for it by the water, and mail it to Santa Monica, and see how many people have bought it, and look for each other, you know.

And also, over half the people in California have never seen the beach.

So that doesn't mean that you have to put a coal pile under a building's beach end.

Although I must say, John, it's been a lot for a few hours.

No, it's not been much.

What do you know, Mr. Drummond?

Because I was out there years ago, I was teaching drugs to people, leading us to war.

And I was really quite impressed to see that, frankly, people could go.

People have gotten out of the overseas facilities.

You've got to have a chance to use the parks.

Like on the park business, I mean, it's great.

I certainly don't want to destroy all the trails and so forth.

But if we get this balance where we retain the beauty of letting people, and particularly something other than people who have a full retreat or are interested in bird watching and the rest, get them out so they follow the students.

It's the use of them that concerns me.

There must be a proper knowledge in there sometimes.

You fly over this country, you see great segments of very certain people, and there's people there, but you also have people that live in the cities and chances.

I appreciate the chapter in the National Park shows the need to put the parks in perspective of the total recreation picture.

recreation and distribute to urban people who want to go.

So they all don't have to depart and find their recreation in other areas.

Right.

As a matter of fact, not to depart, but of course, whatever recreation they have.

So you're talking to people and things like that in other areas.

Right.

You know, looking at it in a broader sense, too, you think of youngsters, young people,

Uh, we did grow up in a different type of environment.

I mean, we didn't, of course, have ontology or something.

And in those times, what did you do about the inter-career?

Perhaps you had discussions and so forth and so on.

Now, of course, with the two or so-four people, that doesn't mean it's all bad.

All of us can work well.

And so the kids go and they plant themselves down, you know, and so on.

No exercise, no fresh air for kids.

If there is nature out there, they don't give one damn about it, you know.

Or when they go, they say, jeez, where's the television?

I was out in uptown Oregon the other day.

I was riding through Ruka Canyon, you know.

It's a very bright part, a beautiful part.

So I was at a park, and I saw a very beautiful, I saw one, a couple, a family there.

I guess perhaps, perhaps we must learn again

who enjoy doing things that are different from sitting and being entertained by others.

But a lot of this is happening.

It is not boring.

It's jumping up.

There's more in the lives of the people.

We need more and more education.

We're expanding.

Well, can you do that in schools?

You see, from the idea, for example, I would think that in our great religious order, instead of just saying, Jesus, the air is terrible, the parks are misused, and the rest of it,

I think what I'd love to see, your role in the environment, you should be out in front, perhaps further in front than I can be, because I've got a lot of jobs and have a lot of other things to do, but I can be there.

But there are costs.

You don't have to worry about costs.

I do.

Well, we do.

Yeah, we do.

Everybody has to stop.

My point is, if the true environmentalist monitor really his whole record shows that he loves the beauty of the land, the parks, and so forth and so on, but if he can realize that it's his responsibility that out of this 205 million people that live in this country, that there is a way, that we've got increased ways that they use it, that they enjoy it,

They're interested in the rest.

Not that it's just there, but some ways to get them there.

I remember, it rests back in the old days, growing up in New York.

We were working in Washington, so we were up in New York.

New York Tribune used to have their fresh air podcast.

And now New York Times has a similar kind of thing.

And we, my mother and I, we always used to go to the Tribune.

We always used to go to the Tribune, not very much.

And one summer, she brought about five kids from Harlem or someplace.

And they had a little farm, a tiny little farm up in Indiana.

uh, New York, Pennsylvania, and everything.

Well, these kids, of course, all the autocratic matters and so forth, wrote to her for years and years because of those two weeks.

I'm talking about a different thing here.

But it, you know, we talk about scouts, well, although they do do a lot of scouts and so forth, for trying to bring more and more individuals.

But just a hell of a lot of kids can't afford scouts.

Or at least, that used to be the case, a little better now.

But what I'm getting at is that I'd like to see that beach in California originally be used.

There ought to be a way where they ought to put about a dozen buses on today and get a lot of those kids out of Harlem and Boyle Heights and get the hell out of that beach.

And let them see it in the lifeguards down there so they get to feel it.

Now they're remembering all their lives.

That's what we want to dive into, because otherwise what you have, let me tell you the danger I see in the environment.

And I wish you, Brian, I wish you would teach it.

This is what I believe.

You may not agree with me, but as we said, the environmental thing must not be allowed to become a fad of the illness, a fad of the intellectuals, etc.

a flat upper middle class.

In other words, people in Ellison are interested, but not in the South Side as you're talking about.

That's an environment that really means something to this country.

It's got to reach down.

the blue collar guy and the rest and so forth.

The development perhaps doesn't quite comprehend as does the upper class what it's all about.

The development, for example, never goes to college.

Of course I know they're exposed to it in high school now.

And it isn't going to mean anything to him unless he gets the chance to use these facilities.

That's what I'm getting at.

So it's use that I think we ought to emphasize.

I think that point is

is underlined by the fact that the greatest interest we've seen are the people who go out and fish and hunt because they are making use of the natural environment.

They're your advocates.

But I should get more.

But many of them, of course, are your advocates.

You have to work with them in the urban areas, in the ghettos, to show them, to give them an appreciation for these values so they have the desire to give it out.

and as well as helping with transportation, making these areas accessible.

The education thing is really, when you're talking to the educators, for example, who are asking the courses and environment, I think a very strong thrust of it should be how can we get people to appreciate it and use it, not simply how can we give the Congress hell or the government hell to do something about it.

How can we get people to appreciate it and use it?

But coming back to TR, most of us don't ever remember, at least only about Wheaton, another great thing he did, as I recall, in TR, as great, really, as developing a conservation program together and showing all that about you, was the greatest thing TR did.

He stirred up the American people, the desire, every red blood that comes to you on those mountains, right?

Don't you remember reading that?

That was T.R.

's legacy.

And that is what the modern environmentalists write in.

Perhaps we'll put more emphasis on changing the spirit of people so that they're not...

The environment isn't just a great cause.

We're all about fighting against the establishment and all those horrible people that are polluting our rivers and our waters and our recruiting jobs and so forth and so on.

But we really want to take the people who now are too cluttered up in cities, who are too close to the television, you know, sitting in there, sitting inside, quarreling, fighting, eyeing at each other.

I mean, maybe getting them out.

I think that's an appreciation of the environment is something that needs to be preached to them as well.

I think one of the new issues, too, that's coming out, and you may have seen it in Florida and in Oregon and Colorado, but the people who live there are looking at what's going to happen to Grover and his, you know, priest Grover, are you going to affect?

Oh, yes, yes, that's true, that's true.

You'll find an awful lot of people that say, no, we're not interested in that.

Just having growth for the sake of growth.

Oh, yes.

We have to steepen the growth.

Proper land use.

That's what we've had so much emphasis across the speeches and problems of growth and how to get the environment.

So we plan ahead and prepare for it.

Especially with land use and jobs and quality and so on.

Well, if I could suggest as your project for next year, let's double the number of people who use our parks.

Just to kind of out there.

Not just the national parks, but the state parks and the local parks.

The state and local parks are probably the best.

And people who go to the national parks have got to have a little double, let's face it.

They're already well adjusted.

They're adjusted jobs.

We've got 80 million of them this year.

It's pretty hard to stand in one of those parks.

It's a gorgeous place.

It's a congested place.

One of the reasons that I want you to post is that you've got to go to the Grove.

You went this year.

No, I didn't go this year.

Isn't that a great deal for an environment?

Not even a bunch of rich businessmen.

You only want to think of those trees.

Well, we do appreciate your work.

I think that's good.

And for people who have been in government, if you have, you know, if you're sacrificed, you know, frustration, you know, something like that, you know, to an extent, you are conveying to others your understanding of problems, of real problems that people are trying to solve in government.

It's so difficult.

But also, if you didn't

consent out of their glasses and out of your readership.

People that aren't just, you know, out ticketing to, you know, to lie away, to be out of the way, just the kind of thing.

But who also are thinking in this broader terms of kind of, kind of, you know, how these things can be taken.

Well, you know, we used to put when we were sitting over people.

And if there's nothing sad or really difficult, it's one of the better restaurants that I've been to in some of the areas that we've been to.

I understand.

And of course, a lot of people, a lot of people can't help it.

But you can get out of that place just for the hang of it.

I remember for a year, something to do with the disease and so forth.

I really abut the toleration thing anyway, because I ate some ice.

you know, a mess because of its overuse.

I mean, people just sit there and look day after day after day and turn off their minds.

And they look at major films.

It's a remarkable situation.

I don't know if you've seen the cartoon, but the fellow, the driving rainstorm, and he's outside of his car, and his family's inside, and he's changing a tire, and he's soaking wet, and the little kid pokes his head out, and he says, Daddy, I don't like this.

Change the channel.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to work here.

I think the overall, I think I've been able to get a glimpse of some of the problems that you're facing, looking at your wider picture.

And I think your legislative program has really been something that you're campaigning on.

So I hope that this increased poverty in the beginning will go ahead.

Because there's a lot more work to be done in the environment.

Oh yeah.

Not just for the getting the parks, but helping the people where the environment's the worst and the inner city to have a better life.

Yeah, that phase of it was where we all started to fight it out.

In fact, about 80% of our time is spent going to and from work and where you work.

That's the environment for most people.

It's a pretty cluttered and invisible place for people who can't be conscious about it.

Where's the environment areas defined in terms of wet paint poisoning and rats?

Oh, dear God.

That's the environment to them, you see.

That's where we have to help in those areas.

That's right.

Rather than somebody...

Yes, of course, of course.

You know, the district really has set up a pretty good tempo.

In addition to the cleanup, Walter Washington has had this in mind that it comes back.

Oh, no question about it.

Sure, there's no question about it.

It's beginning attitude.

And then for the first time, these people begin to think about the neighborhood and it doesn't come back quite so bad the next time.

Then you gotta do it again and then it's a little better.

It's lost time.

Well, it's very impressive.

Black.

It's always, every time, just hard.

You just know.

You don't have to ask where it's changed.

And just because people are black and so forth, it's because they just grew up that way.

And so a lot of education, you see it.

You see it in my opinion.

I saw it in Miami.

I saw it moving along.

on the streets of the nice little stucco houses, perhaps about 20 years ago, you know, where they lived down the road.

Whack!

There was a black maker in a puddle.

The wind was battering and everything.

The public housing project, five years ago, was already a slog.

And you say, oh, God, I mean, what are we doing?

And you see, again, a person.

It's...

Oh, it's doing better.

If you stop to think, everything is relevant.

If you stop to think, this town, even four years ago, was a pretty dangerous place.

It's still relevant, but the variety has turned around.

They had the biggest tourist season this year of all.

But it's a little better.

Maybe the drops may not be better.

I didn't, I didn't, I haven't seen a guest for so long.

I don't know, that was a cozy little park and we all had a little fun.

Another great big deal, this is too big for something too far away from the bank.

It's a place like the Rose Bowl, you're right down there.

That is the best football stadium in America, because there's no running trash can.

And the Coliseum, you're just way down on it.

There at the Rose Bowl, you're right, even a seat down, so it's good.

From what I remember.

Yeah, it's it.

Well, good luck.

Good luck with your trip.

Thank you.

I spoke to her years ago at a great issues course

Oh, listen, uh, would you arrange that we send pictures of us walking up there?

Holly will shoot it, because we're, we're going to send you that picture for a year.

I'll be right back.

Nixon, Train & Cahn on Council on Environmental Quality

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on August 7, 1972

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