Dean’s first Watergate meeting with the President

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HaldemanJohn Dean.

HaldemanYeah, Dean is one of the quiet guys that just gets a lot done.

NixonThat was a good move too, bringing Dean in.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanWe'll never we'll never gain any ground for us because he's not that kind of guy, but he's a guy that enables other people to gain ground while he's making sure things don't fall through the holes.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanBetween times,

NixonHe's doing he's moving ruthlessly on the investigation on the government people, seeing stuff and all that too. I don't know how much progress he's made, but I [unintelligible].

HaldemanChuck has gone through, you know, he's worked on the list and Dean's working the the thing through IRS, and

NixonSome cases I think some

Haldemangot another check.

NixonHe's He turned out to be tougher than I thought he would, which is what

HaldemanYeah. Do you have anybody else that you want to run into the market you can, Mr. President?

NixonI don't get through into the morning, and it's too quick after that, walk right into a next one Tuesday.

HaldemanTuesday morning. Let me check and see.

NixonYou know, at least come in, get him in.

HaldemanWhomever it is.

Nixonand let's pack it in, 10:00 outside.

HaldemanYou know, we ought to [unintelligible] get Schreiner to run this tonight. [unintelligible]

NixonRight.

HaldemanHe's a telegrapher.

NixonMy dilemma, we made my husband and my wife

HaldemanOh, yeah, we're pushing that hard. The Vice President went to Miami for that.

NixonDid he hit him on it?

HaldemanAbsolutely, husband and wife.

NixonNow, we want the Now McGovern, I don't think made his assets and wife's, did he?

HaldemanI don't know, but I would guess his wife probably doesn't have any, and so won't make any difference. Maybe she might. She might, make him report it, but this driver wouldn't be

NixonShriver wouldn't, babe.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonShe'll have to report hers. Here's a morning paper says she has her own. Hers is a trust.

HaldemanSee, it's all in a trust. She only has about $20,000.

NixonYeah, and put his assets up.

HaldemanSign for the trust to put, you know, what it was worth.

NixonHi, John.

DeanGood afternoon, sir.

NixonOh, you had quite a day today, didn't you?

DeanWell, you got it Watergate uh, all the way, huh?

NixonHow did it How did it all end up?

DeanI I think we've shaped it well at this point. The uh The press has played it

Haldemanbasically expect

Nixonwhite wash?

DeanNo, not yet. This the story right now is

HaldemanIt's a big story.

DeanIt's a big story. It's it's

Nixonjust five indicted.

Deanplus plus the fact that one's the White House a former guy and all that.

HaldemanThat's good. That that takes the edge off whitewash, really, which That was the thing Mitchell kept saying that that those in the country, Liddy and and Hunt are big men.

DeanThat's right.

NixonYeah. They're White House, say.

HaldemanAnd maybe that

NixonYeah, maybe that's good.

HaldemanHow did MacGregor handle himself?

DeanI think very well. He had a good statement to uh he said that the uh the grand jury had uh cleared up things so well and uh it's now time to realize that

Deansome apologies may be due.

HaldemanGood.

NixonFat chance.

HaldemanHow can you bully that your other investigation?

DeanWell, we're just waiting for the uh

NixonWhat's happening on the bug? The bug?

DeanThe bug. The second bug, there was another bug found in the phone

Haldemanof uh

NixonFirst, you don't think it's one that was left over from the previous job?

DeanWe're absolutely not. Second,

NixonGosh.

Deanit has uh gently rechecked and then checked thoroughly. That his first check was thorough and that it was not there. Any screw

DeanAnd he's happy to went after what the hell do you think he's supposed to do. So the DNC has planted

NixonYou think they did it?

DeanUh-huh.

HaldemanThe ray has uh wanted them to have courage that they think that, but it's just they really want to believe that we planted that.

NixonDid they get anything on the fingerprints?

DeanNo, they're still uh either on the telephone or on the uh

NixonThey wiped it?

Deanon the bug. The uh The FBI has unleashed a full blast investigation over at the DNC starting with O'Brien right now.

HaldemanGiving the same treatment now that they've done everything to do in Washington, same what the field offices were doing in New York.

DeanAnything they can think of, because what happened, O'Brien has charged the bureau with failing to

Deanfind all the all the bugs whenever they

NixonGood.

HaldemanNow make him mad.

DeanSo So Gray is pissed now, and his people are are pissed off. So they're moving in and they're taking their time.

NixonThat's uh I think that's a good approach.

HaldemanI think it's a good it's a good move, because nice folks have got to can't fall into this one, hopefully.

NixonHow could they? Am I wrong? Is

DeanNo, I'm starting

NixonLooks sure to me.

DeanIf we can if we can find that the DNC planted that, the whole story's one of the whole just will reverse.

NixonBut how can we How can you possibly find it, though?

DeanWell, they're they're trying to ascertain who made the bug and uh it's a custom-made product and they get back to the man who manufactured it, and they find out who he sold them to, and how it came down through the chain.

HaldemanBoy, you never know when those guys get after it, they can find it. They're bound to

DeanThe resources that have been put against this whole investigation to date are really incredible. It's truly a It's truly a larger investigation than was conducted against uh in the after-inquiry of the JFK assassination.

NixonOh, and good statistics for you to have. Somebody's just going to hell.

HaldemanIsn't that ridiculous, though?

NixonWell, it's this silly ass thing, that they

HaldemanYeah, that kind of resources against it.

NixonYeah. Christ, they did it to Goldwater, the conniving, the cry, and the bugging, and everything else we know that.

DeanThat was That was priceless. Yeah.

HaldemanWell, it's true. Oh, it has to be, because these people we were bugged in '68 on the plane, and bugged in '62, even under Humphrey.

NixonGoddamn thing ever stopped.

DeanIt was a shame that evidence was uh that that happened in '68 was never preserved, or rather that

Deanonly the former director

Deanhad that information.

HaldemanNo, that's not true. He thought he was the only one that had it, but

NixonYeah.

Haldemanthere's others who have that info.

NixonI know.

DeanDeLoach?

HaldemanDeLoach, right.

NixonI've got some stuff on it, too, in the bombing halt study.

NixonCuz it's all That's why I think the stuff I've got, we don't

HaldemanYou can't really use it, because it is that it reflects on Johnson.

NixonRight.

HaldemanHe ordered it.

NixonIf it weren't for that, I'd use it. Is there any way we can use it without reflecting on Johnson? You say the Democratic National Committee did it.

HaldemanNo, the FBI did the bugging.

NixonThat's the problem. Did it reflect on Johnson, or Humphrey?

HaldemanJohnson.

NixonHumphrey didn't know it?

HaldemanHumphrey didn't know. Oh, hell, he was bugging Humphrey, too.

NixonGod.

HaldemanWell, on the other hand, maybe uh

NixonI don't think he will.

HaldemanI don't think he will. [unintelligible] Johnson's [unintelligible]

DeanAlso, it reflects on the bureau.

HaldemanOh, that's what he's saying. It's Harry Truman and the

NixonIt's a ruffle on that, with all with all the stuff about they don't do congressmen and all that sort of stuff. But they do a president. It worked, if it did, worked damn

HaldemanWhat is the situation on your uh

Haldemanthat were in the little red box. They find out what the hell happened to that? Have they found the box yet?

DeanGray, who's never had access to the box, is now going to pursue the box. I spoke with him just a few, it's about, uh, oh, 30 minutes ago.

DeanAnd, uh, he said, "I don't know about the box, uh, don't know where it is now. We never had, uh, an opportunity before it was first, uh, released in the press there was a box to go in." He said, "I think we have grounds now to go in and find out what it's all about." The last public story was that she turned it over to Edward Bennett Williams.

HaldemanThat's right.

DeanYeah. The bureau ought to go to Edward Bennett Williams and start questioning that son of a bitch. Keep him tied up for a couple of weeks.

HaldemanI hope they do. The bureau's been going over to Williams to get that red box. We want it cleared up.

DeanAbsolutely. That's exactly the way I pitched it to Gray, so-

HaldemanWe want it cleared up. We want to get to the bottom of it. If anybody's guilty over here we want to know. And the other, best part about some of the news,

DeanMm-hmm.

Deanthat, uh, the Stans libel action was assigned to Judge Richey, our friend.

DeanWell, now that's good and bad. Uh, Judge Richey is not known to be one of the intellects on the bench, and it's conceded by many that he is, uh,

Deanuh, he's fairly unschooled in the ways of- He's- He's been fairly candid in his dealings with people about the case. He's made several entrees, uh, off the bench

Deanto, uh, one, Roemer McPhee. Uh, he's an old friend of Roemer McPhee. To keep Roemer abreast of what his thinking is. He told Roemer he thought this morning he ought to file a libel action.

HaldemanDid he? Good.

DeanUh, well can he deal with them fairly, with the other case?

DeanYeah, the fact that he- the civil case came to a halt, that the depositions were halted, and people aren't being deposed every day. Well, I did that, more than that, he's been talking to Silbert. And Silbert,

Deanuh, the-

DeanU.S. Attorney, assistant U.S. Attorney, has saying, "We're having a hell of a time drawing these indictments up, because the fact is that these civil depositions keep coming out, and the grand jury's got one eye on the civil case, because they don't want to get themselves caught,

Deanuh, coming out with indictments in the civil case that did something differently." So-

HaldemanJoin a take-court mess.

DeanA great response.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanSo, they- so based on that, uh, uh, when Silbert had told-

DeanRichey hasn't had a casual encounter, in fact, it was just in the hall. Richey, the next thing he does is he stops the civil case so Silbert can get the indictment now.

HaldemanWhat's his, uh- Has he stopped to get his abuse of process suit?

DeanUh, yes, he has.

HaldemanOh.

DeanWell, he stole mine, yeah.

HaldemanYes, I hear [unintelligible]

Deanhe's sued or somebody, I don't know.

HaldemanWell, God, I hope he did. Did he, did he file, John?

DeanMhm.

HaldemanYeah. Good. I got a little worried that he hadn't done it.

DeanNo.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanGreat. Fine.

HaldemanGreat.

Dean[whispering]

HaldemanYeah.

DeanGood.

HaldemanSure.

HaldemanWell, okay. Uh, just don't let this keep you, or your colleagues, from concentrating on the big game. You got an election to win here, and, I mean, this, uh, this thing is just, you know, one of those side issues, and I'm frustrated by the fact that whatever hell is shot. Well,

DeanYeah. Yeah.

HaldemanOkay, well, anyway, get a good night's sleep. And don't, don't bother anybody about this. Just, uh- Okay?

BullThank you. All the way.

— 1 min 37 s with no transcribed speech —

DeanThree months ago, I would have had a, a couple of fits over this, but I think that I've- 54 days from now, that, uh,

Deannothing's going to come crashing down on our, our sepulchers.

NixonHear, hear. Nothing's going to come crashing down. [laughter]

NixonWell, the whole thing's a can of worms. As you know, a lot of this stuff went on. And, uh-

NixonAnd, uh-

NixonYeah. But the, but the way you've handled it seems to me has been very skillful, because-

Nixonputting fingers in dikes

Nixonevery- every- that have been leaking here and there.

NixonWell, we don't want to have any people, well, the grand jury is dismissed now?

DeanThat is correct. They'll, they'll have completed, and they'll let them go.

HaldemanSo, there will be no continued investigation, as far as the grand jury's concerned?

DeanThe GAO report that was referred over to Justice is on a shelf right now, because they have hundreds of violations.

DeanThey've got violations of McGovern's. They've got violations of Humphrey's. They've got Jackson violations, and several hundred congressional violations.

DeanThey don't want to start prosecuting one any more than the other. And that's, so-

NixonIf they're not going to prosecute us, unless they prosecute everybody else. Well, they pretty much all have technical violations deferred on them.

DeanSure.

NixonSure. What about the- [pause] Why didn't they- What about McGovern's contributors, and all that stuff?

DeanWe've got- we've got a box eye on that. And, uh,

Deanindeed, it's not in public line.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanWell, I hear this free advertising they're all reporting that.

NixonEvery- We reported ours.

DeanYes, we- Well, we have a couple of little minor things that we talked to, but it's done now, it's, and-

Deancommitted up to 430, 300 or so committees. We have none that I'm aware of and they've never ceased from another angle either. One of the men who he is not done is he is not having his those facts that he's got this 300 committee, this has been a Wall Street Journal piece that picked it up and carried it. And uh,

Deanit hasn't been used, right? To attack a scam that he's set up for an organization. It's hard to comprehend why he set up 300 committees, frankly, Ed. He doesn't need that many if he doesn't have some large contributors where they have to disperse small

HaldemanUnless someone is giving $900,000.

DeanThat's right, which could be very possible.

HaldemanHe may be getting $900,000 from somebody. Or two or three. He may have some big angels. I don't think he's getting a hell of a lot of small money and violence or something. I don't believe that crap.

DeanThe media people post office check, didn't it? That junk mail, I don't know.

DeanEverybody seems to be in good shape, though.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanWe don't hope little things, huh?

HaldemanI haven't as I see it now, the only problems that uh that we have are are the human problems of the,

DeanOf people. Both sides.

NixonThe human?

DeanHuman?

HaldemanHuman frailties. People get tired and, people get annoyed, and some finger-pointing and, false accusations and, internal dissension of that nature.

DeanYou mean on this case?

HaldemanOn this case, uh, there's some flutter between the Finance Committee and the Political Committee. They feel they're taking all the heat, and, and, uh, all the people upstairs are bad people. They're not being protected. It is, these are all together. They just, uh, just behave.

DeanAnd, and, rest, this is a can- this is war. We get a few shots and, it'll be over. We give them a few shots, it'll be over. War.

NixonAll right.

DeanI wouldn't want to be on the other side right now.

NixonWould you?

DeanI wouldn't want to be in Edward Bennett Williams's position after this is over.

NixonNo, never.

DeanNot on these best terms, neither. He's done some rather unethical things that have come to light already, which-

HaldemanWhich in the end will be brought to attention. Yeah. That's following up, following all that.

DeanOh, we are indeed.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanCuz after it's settled, the-

Dean[unintelligible] talk to Washington Post, and we're we're we've got Goddamn, because he's a bad man.

HaldemanHe did sweetie, very badly the Hartford matter. It's a pretty bad conflict there, too. But go ahead.

DeanWell, what I along that line, uh, one of the things I've tried to do is just keep notes on a lot of the people who are emerging as as not our friends, because this is going to be over someday, and there's We shouldn't forget the way that some of these I want to-

NixonI want the comprehensive notes on all those that have tried to do us in, because they didn't have to do it.

DeanThat's right.

NixonThey didn't have to do it. I mean, they had a they had very little chance that the other side they should've had this came in. Now, they've done this quite deliberately, and they are asking for it, and they are going to get it. If they, this, we have not used the power in the first 4 years as you know. We haven't used any of it. We haven't used the bureau, we haven't used the Justice Department. But things are going to change now. And they're going to change, and, they're going to get it right. It's got to be done.

DeanThat's the only thing to do.

HaldemanWe've got to.

NixonAlmost all of, we've just been, we've just goddamned fools. For us to come into this election campaign and not do anything with regard to the Democratic Senators that are running and so forth, they're they think they're crooks, they've been stealing, they've been taking. And we have, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's not going to be that way anymore. And, uh,

HaldemanWell, the irony is the irony is, what we've kind of got a touchy screws, your damn regulations and, everybody worries about framing, and not taking up a hotel bill, or anything,

DeanWell, I think we can I think we can be proud of the White House staff. It really is clean. Had no problems of that. While they're dry.

DeanAnd they're looking. This GAO audit that's going on right now, uh, I think that they've got some suspicion uh, and he did that first rate investigation which discovered nothing, that they're going to find something here.

DeanI wondered why they stepped with that. I've heard this this thing that the GAO auditor, investigator was down here, that he is down here at the Speaker of the House's request, which surprised me.

HaldemanWell, goddamn, the Speaker of the House, maybe we'd better put a little heat on him.

NixonI think so too.

HaldemanBecause he's got far worse problems than he's going to find down here.

DeanThat's right.

HaldemanThat's the kind of thing that the police report,

DeanThat's the kind of thing that, you know, you-

HaldemanWhat we really ought to do is call the Speaker, and say, "I regret to see you ordering GAO down here because of what it's going to cause us to require to do to you."

DeanWhy don't you get that Harlow to see the Speaker, and talk to him?

HaldemanBecause he wouldn't do it.

DeanBecause he wouldn't do it.

HaldemanHarlow,

DeanHarlow would say, "Mr. Speaker,"

HaldemanYeah.

DeanI think, I suppose the other the other area for publicity and downtime leads because of, that I think that after the, now the indictments are down, can be a crafty on that. The White House target of course, and then we've got Patman's hearings. Uh, this Banking and Currency Committee, we've got a Whether it will be successful or not, turning that off, I don't know. We've got a plan whereby

DeanRothblatt and Bittman, who are counsel for the five and the were, for the, actually for the, folk seven that were indicted today, are going to go up and visit every member, say in commencing hearings, you're going to jeopardize the civil rights of these individuals in the worst way, and they'll never get a fair trial in their life. And try to talk the members on, on that level. Uh,

NixonWhy did they? Could they request to be heard?

DeanThey've said, well, by the committee? Start a whole public What they can say is if you do commence with these hearings, we find the public will become so and stay with your doing the device with your visual.

DeanMatter of fact, that they can even make a motion in the court to get the thing dismissed. Now, another thing we're doing is, is, because we carry bring an injunctive action against, the the appearance of say,

HaldemanWell, then, the other way. The dismissal of the of the of the How about indictment of the, criminal's case criminal's charge dismissed, on grounds that their were violated?

DeanThe civil rights type stuff. And Right, Well that will work again. We got somebody else approaching ACLU for these guys, to have them go up and exert some pressure, because we just don't want

DeanStans up there in front of the cameras, with Patman and Patman asking all these questions. It's just going to be the whole thing, the press going over, and over, and over again.

DeanUh, one suggestion was that Connally is, is close to Patman, and probably if anybody can talk to Patman, Connally can. But Patman is kind of an independent bird, so I don't know whether Connally can talk to him or not. I don't think he, we can. Jerry Ford is not really taking an active interest in this matter. He's developed interest in it.

DeanStan is going to see Jerry Ford, and try to brief him, and explain him the problem he's got.

DeanThen the other thing we could do is look into all the campaign reports of every member of that committee, the ones who went to conventions, nine of them violated public, the law outright. If they want to get into looking, they want to play rough, I'll be embarrassed. They'll, we can call to your attention, you haven't complied. We can see Now that would hold off the secret, if they would start talking campaign violations, too.

NixonHow, what about Ford? Jerry Ford. Can he do anything with Patman?

DeanCan't do anything with Patman. He set up the,

HaldemanHell, no.

DeanNobody can do anything with Patman. But if Jerry can get the minority members together on that committee It's got very good men on the committee, unfortunately.

NixonHeckler's all right.

DeanHeckler was great. She was great the other day. I understand that she see Widnall.

NixonSleeps bloody Jerry can talk to,

DeanPardon me?

NixonJerry should talk to Widnall. And uh,

Nixonand it's crazy John Connally called this morning said strike at it.

DeanNot only be the chairman [unintelligible] have to do a little bit of talking to get our own minority side at least together on the thing.

DeanJerry Ford ought to lead on this, because it's going to be very defeatist.

HaldemanThat it's going to, sure, he said now that this is exactly the thing he was talking about that the reason they're staying in is so they can sorry run investigations.

NixonWell, the point is that they ought to raise hell about this and say that this is these hearings are jeopardizing the

DeanWell, I don't know that they have council to call all the members of the committee will do much good.

DeanI was I think maybe all right, but I was thinking that they really have to put the thunder muscle into the public arena.

NixonIn other words, be the public side of it.

DeanRight.

NixonThat's what this is, public relations, that's all it is, particularly if Patman pulls off these hearings.

DeanThat's the widest forum, and uh it's also like to be the forum where we have the least control the way it stands right now. Kennedy's also suggested he may call hearings of the Administrative Practice and Procedure Subcommittee, uh.

Deanand after this thing has been all along, you can spin out horrible events if you keep sniffing around. So, we've just got to keep them stopped, you know, we stopped doing that about two two months ago and just taking them one at a time and deal with them.

NixonYou really have to sit and worry so damn much about all the time things. The worst may happen, but it may not, so you've got to try to button down as well as you can, hope for the best.

DeanYou know, and remember that, basically, the damn thing is just one of those misfortunes.

DeanAll lawsuits will certainly have tried, and certainly have had no effect on you, that's the good thing.

NixonYeah, it has, no, it has been kept away from the White House almost completely, and from the President totally.

HaldemanThe only tie to the White House is, is uh Colson, every thing he'd kind of fall into.

DeanAnd now, of course, that's broad. He's had White House people go over there and testify one consultant and one member of the Domestic Council staff.

NixonThat's not very much of a tie.

HaldemanNo.

NixonWell, their names have been already mentioned.

HaldemanWell, that's, and this kind of thing, what's got all the publicity in the press.

NixonAnd after they've been conquered you have Washington Post, New York Times raising hell with civil rights.

DeanThat's right.

NixonPoor men.

NixonJesus Christ. Then, if they killer, what if they're That's true.

DeanThat's absolutely true. These poor bastards are layered. They have no way they can ever act, and they get all moves to believe the uh that their trial will be delayed.

DeanWell, it's an extensive briefing by the council in this case, and I've gone through some of the briefs and it's just phenomenal what they have. And my credit's as good as good. They may never get a fair trial. They never get They may never get a jury that could convict them, could convict them.

DeanAnd the fellas, you know, have got a real large team that they've assigned to nothing, but this this case. Couldn't believe it. But, Maurice Stans' file his countersuit, which received plenty of talk in the networks last night in the evening news,

Deanthey put it way back in about page eight of the Post and sure didn't even cover it as it in total.

NixonThat's all right. That's all right. Because the Post is The Post has is going to have its problem.

HaldemanThe network's The networks are good for more, though, aren't they?

NixonRight. The main is the Post is going to have a damnable problem out of this one. They have a television station.

DeanThat's right, they do.

NixonAnd they're going to have to get it renewed.

HaldemanThey have radio station, too.

NixonDoes that come on, too? The point is, when does it come on?

DeanI don't know, but the practice is

NixonNow, whether the FCC's finally, top of the FCC, certainly gotten more, they tried rancher than then then.

HaldemanNow that they got that pack in here, that could be

DeanWell, the game got to be played awful rough, I don't know what

NixonHow do you feel about uh could could Mitchell do it, or uh, could could Connally do it or who's going to?

HaldemanI talked to Bill, I think.

DeanYeah.

NixonDick Cook, has he Dick Cook is the guy that

DeanDick has been working on it. Maybe Mitchell would. Could Mitchell do it?

DeanI don't really know that he could, you know. Okay. You're on this, uh.

DeanI think Maury can talk to Ford. That won't do any good, but Maury's the same impact for us, because he's, you know, directly involved. I think Maury ought to brief Ford as to find out exactly what his home town story is.

NixonI'll talk to Cook.

HaldemanWhy can't Ehrlichman, too, could talk to him.

NixonEhrlichman understands the law.

DeanGerry'll understand it. Ehrlichman say, goddamn, we can get all the workers in the city.

NixonThat's a good idea. Maybe it is.

NixonI think maybe John could think he could climb over. Just This is big This is big play. I'm getting into this, and so that he He's got to know that it comes from the top. Yeah. And so he's got to climb in it. We've got to We're not going to I can't talk to him myself, so he's got to get into this.

DeanWell, Ford is saying uh what can we do?

HaldemanWell, if we've got answers for him, that'll help him. Maybe he's just, you know, terrified about Patman having a field day up there.

NixonWhat's the first move when does he call witnesses?

DeanWell, he he has not even gotten the vote of his committee hasn't even convened his committee yet on whether they can call hearings. That's why uh come Monday morning, the attorney general will arrive uh on the doorstep of the chairman and try to tell him what he's doing if he proceeds.

DeanUh, one of the members, Gary Brown, uh wrote Kleindienst a letter, saying if the chairman holds committee hearings on this isn't this going to jeopardize your criminal case. And, Kleindienst, it's a smart follow up, some information that tried to, so How'd you hear that before? He's broken. It's a very smart fallen.

NixonGood. Well, the lawyer's being helpful. He's, he's, he's, yeah.

DeanHe's been totally. Well, tell Ehrlichman to get Brown, and Ford and get to work on something. But, they ought to get off their ass. And, push, yeah.

DeanHe just let Patman have a free ride here. Well, we can we keep them well briefed and they'll move. Till now, they'll move when we provide them with it.

NixonStrategy.

DeanAnd they'll have around depositions going the other way soon. We will be calling O'Brien soon, and the like, on our abuse of processes.

NixonWho is that?

DeanWell, he's filed, he's filed, Roemer has started a lawsuit.

DeanAh, it's quite a character, is he? We're getting the the cycle out of the Some members of the DNC, I Howard was suggesting.

DeanWell, he's working on an entrapment theory that uh they were hiding something and that they had secret information, affairs to hide, and they they have some way conspired to bring this thing about themselves. It's a It's a way out theory, but it's No one had thought of it.

DeanAnd he he had scheduled Patricia Harris and she didn't show up. She went to the beauty parlor instead. So he went down to courthouse, and she was they went directly to show up the next day, and the judge cut all the depositions off. But he had a whole host of wild questions, including, you know, where O'Brien got his conversation when he was chairman. Not that he knows anything about that, but to do some nasty questions, he thought he might want to ask him.

NixonUnder oath.

DeanYeah.

NixonThat gives us uh the same hunting license that it gives them. That's right, we can play the same game they're playing, but we ought to be able to do better at it.

NixonWell, are those depositions sealed?

DeanThat's right.

DeanThey are, but that our view is that uh they won't want them unsealed, no one unsealed less than we will. We'd have to argue at some point to get them unsealed.

NixonWell.

Deancomplaint down there right now. They will then turn around and file a new complaint, which will be for, to come back and reach again.

DeanThat er, that'll probably happen the 20th, 21st, 22nd, then twenty days will run,

Deanuntil the answers will have to be filed, and these depositions will commence, so we're, we're eating up awful lot of time.

HaldemanWhy will he, why will he dismiss the present one?

DeanUh, two, probably on, on a twofold ground.

DeanUh, both on a substantive ground that they haven't stated a good cause for action, that there's an improper class action filed, that O'Brien, he doesn't represent any class.

DeanUh, and he'll just dismiss it on the merits. It's not a good complaint. He's already stayed it down to almost nothing in his original order. They will then have to redesign it in a much narrower action.

DeanBut, the judge himself hinted, suggested something to counsel that you've got a good res judicata argument here if he dismisses on the merits,

Deanuh that they can't file another suit, they're out of court, totally.

HaldemanWell, our suits, suits still hang.

DeanOur suit would still, we have two suits in there. We have the uh abuse of process and the libel suits.

HaldemanAnd we can take depositions on both of those?

DeanAbsolutely. Oh, yes.

NixonGood.

DeanThey're, they're twin damnation anyway they look at it.

DeanI look forward to the time when we have the agencies, Department of Justice and the IRS,

NixonAfter the election.

HaldemanWell, I, I talked that, so we have to continue to kick ass around here, because you see

DeanYeah.

Haldemanthe idea that you horsed around with the IRS, my God, you know,

DeanYeah.

Haldemaneven when I was in liberal California, they did that, of course.

NixonOf course they did.

HaldemanThey jerked, for Christ's sake, every, they pulled my file and I had nothing, of course.

DeanCome back, it's all the time.

HaldemanHell, snail,

Haldemanfor Christ's sake, with us,

DeanYou know, I don't think we ever pulled the Democratic file, to this day.

HaldemanThat's correct.

DeanI have had a tremendous time trying to get a hold of this file.

NixonWell goddamn it, get hold of it.

DeanIf you, if you talk, if, and George Shultz comes to see you in the next few days, because I made a request for Johnny Walters.

NixonYeah.

DeanUh, after some, on my ground, I think George is the one who let them steam it off on his office.

HaldemanNo reason.

HaldemanThere's no, you don't even need, just tell them you want the file, so you can keep it out.

DeanNo, I already, it's not, it's not that now, it's it's another matter. I've been, I talked to Murray Chotiner, who's been collecting this for Larry Higby and

NixonShultz is to see to it that any order of this kind, he gets, comes directly and that she has to be sure to shut it. I don't want George Shultz ever to raise a question. I don't care who's in,

Nixonif it's a likeness, whatever he's, throw him out of the office.

NixonI like, I can put him on the defensive. He didn't get secretary of the treasury through [unintelligible] blue eyes,

Dean[laughter]

Nixonnot for any other reason, it's a goddamn big favor we gave him to get that job.

DeanThe problem when I start remaining, the problem is this: there's so goddamn many Democrats in the whole structure

NixonI know.

Deanthat it's, it has to be an artful job to get down and get that file.

DeanNow, why the Commissioner and the Secretary can't figure out how they can get down in there and get them, despite the fact that there are

NixonThat's right.

Deantracks, Democrats down there, I don't know. That's why I haven't ever been totally answered.

DeanAnd we've been round and round on this for, for these two years I've been over here [unintelligible].

HaldemanWell, after the election,

Haldemanwhy in the hell worry? Why not let the Democrats down there squeal? And we just say, "Well, we've had, as a result of the election campaign, we've had a lot of complaints, and we've got to check these things out," and we just do it.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanBut before that, we, we do have to do it artfully.

NixonWe have to do it artfully so they don't create an issue and accuse the IRS. But after that, they're our ways to do it goddamn sneakily.

DeanOh, we have the man, we have a man who could do it, and was doing it for me,

HaldemanYeah.

Deandoing well, and now he's, we appointed him to a higher post. He's now the Commissioner of Customs, Mike Acree.

DeanMike was very good. He could get down and get me any information I needed, but he'd have to go through Walters or anyone else.

NixonWhy the fuck did he promote him?

DeanBecause he couldn't, you know,

Nixon[laughter]

DeanHelp the boss!

HaldemanThat's right, he did.

DeanAnd Mike has lost his, vulnerability to use other people over there now.

HaldemanIt actually, the way things are now, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference whether we get him before or after the election anyway.

DeanThat's right.

HaldemanAnd we sure shouldn't take the risk of getting blown out of the water before the election.

DeanJust not worth it.

HaldemanWe should take, we should find a way.

DeanJust not worth it.

HaldemanBut after the election, I'd say, so, so let them, let the Democrats out there squeal, and say Nixon's pulling the tax files of all the Democrats, and say, you're damn right, because we're worried about being charged with covering up tax problems.

NixonRight.

HaldemanAnd we're going to get, and you're the one that have been talking about loopholes. We've had a lot of complaints and we're going to check them out.

DeanThat's right.

HaldemanAnd what's the, what's all about, what's wrong, right?

DeanRight.

NixonI agree.

HaldemanAnd let them scream about repression, and, and all that stuff, and just, we just got to not worry about it.

DeanOh, and that's, it's just a Washington issue anyway, Haldeman.

HaldemanSure is. Go right ahead. Go after it and say, "Well, we want to check these loopholes, or, what you call it."

DeanSo we come out. The other thing is you can always increase your compliance program at that point.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanYour compliance program's never been fully implemented.

HaldemanYeah.

DeanJust happens that a lot of Democrats get caught in it.

DeanGet caught in the new compliance program.

HaldemanWe'll pull, we'll pull a lot of Republicans, too. We just won't look at those after we pull them.

NixonWell, we pulled plenty of Republicans, for Christ's sake, we pulled up some, one another, and just put himself in jail with them.

DeanThat's right.

HaldemanBoy, I think there's kind of, we're pulling Republicans now, for Christ's sake, as Connally points out, we have no qualms about messing in Billy Graham,

DeanThat's right.

Haldemanand Dr. Riland, and all these people, you know, and stuff.

NixonThat's right.

HaldemanWell, they're going to get it. We've just got to, we've got to do it, but you've got to take Walter's ass out first.

NixonHe's got to manage.

DeanI think that's right, isn't it?

DeanJohnny is kinda, uh, at this point, but he's got the White House, the special, the special whatever they, believe me, oh.

DeanI don't, there's not a, a dime's worth of difference between Randy Thrower and, and Johnny Walters as far as response to the White House.

HaldemanWe just gotta get a guy with guts in there, don't we?

DeanHe's a nice guy, and he's sure just can't get what we need.

HaldemanThat tough, that tough

NixonWho can get in? He's the only one that gets appointed in that? He must go into the IRS.

DeanNo, there's, there's, not presidential appointments, but there's a secretarial. Secretary of Treasury has a number of appointments, as well as the IRS.

HaldemanAt his pleasure.

DeanAt his pleasure, right.

NixonWell, but Secretary of the Treasury is going to be George Shultz, now, Shultz has to know,

DeanOh, yeah.

NixonNo, but he's got to know that the resignations of everybody appointed, I want, there'll be no holdovers left. The whole goddamn bunch will walk.

HaldemanYep.

NixonAnd if he doesn't do it, he's not Secretary of the Treasury.

Dean[laughter]

NixonNow that's the way it's going to be put to him. You agree?

HaldemanThat's the point, see? Now, we, they always get around this thing, well, the White House can't fight with goddamn, the secretary, those jobs.

HaldemanWe're not going to have a Secretary of the Treasury that doesn't do what we say.

NixonAnd that's so for every goddamn one.

NixonIf George does want to, [snicker] [laughter] yeah.

DeanHe's in the wrong game.

HaldemanAnd that's the point, that's the point where George, you know, if it is, but he gets up and says, "Well, by God, I'm going to leave and pull a,

HaldemanStrahan, you know, and say, 'This is why I'm leaving.'" Let him do it.

NixonThat's right.

NixonHe's busy with other things, but, the whole point is, it's gotta be a concerted plan to find out,

Nixonnot only who the president appoints,

Nixonbut who every goddamn cabinet officer appoints and every damn agency head appoints.

HaldemanWe have that.

NixonUp and down the line.

NixonDo you know about the guys in Treasury, that the Treasury [unintelligible]?

HaldemanYes, sir.

NixonWell goddamn him then, why didn't he do something about it? Hasn't done a thing about it, we've never talked to him.

HaldemanConnally, Connally didn't do anything. He made the changes.

HaldemanHe did some, but Connally tread awful lightly over there. And he felt probably that he had to.

NixonWell, Shultz isn't going to have to tread lightly.

HaldemanWell, we forced, now we forced Johnny Walters on Connally. He didn't want Walters. And we forced him because Mitchell said he was the guy that would cooperate.

NixonMitchell didn't know, Mitchell was a poor picker of people, I'm sorry to say.

HaldemanWell, he, no, but there was no doubt that Walters would be cooperative. What happened though, it happens in so many of these things, is the,

Haldemanthe person who appears to be loyal all the way gets out and is captured immediately by the bureaucracy. God, he's scared.

NixonThat's why we've got to elect to get these guys who don't, if they don't work for you, then Mitchell was captured by the bureaucracy.

HaldemanWell, I know, I was over there when he-

NixonMitchell was captured by the bureaucracy, Mitchell's no, follow, got over there and,

Nixonand told me how great some of these guys were, and I know they're not worth a damn. Cause I've known them for years.

NixonAnd Rogers, and Rogers is totally captured by the bureaucracy. Mel Laird has been chased by everybody. He's chased everybody.

NixonYou know what I mean?

HaldemanWell, he puts on his people.

NixonOh, oh, well, but look at the people now that who run the Pentagon, still under the goddamn, all through that. That the military still ride roughshod over them.

NixonThey cheat, ducking the whole damn bunch.

NixonAnd, you see, this is the problem, I know what has happened around here, they all command it, and then everybody says, you got to do it fast,

Nixonbecause, then you'll think about Christmas, you know, and then they have that first period through which you-

NixonYou've got to do it right after the election. You've got one week, and that's the time you get all those resignations in, and say, "Look,"

Nixonwant you to be able to plan your holidays. Now, you're off! You're out! You're finished! You're done! Done! Finished!

NixonOut the hell out of there.

HaldemanWell, one of the problems when, when we came in is that no one knew all the key, sensitive spots. In general, they did,

Haldemanso, when you get on each of these departments now, you know, you know, a key administrative appointment can influence a whole operation of their,

HaldemanBob Finch told us that before we came in, and he, basically, he'd go back to it, and it's still right. If you get the right guy as General Counsel,

Haldemanthe PR guy, the Personnel guy, the Legislative Liaison guy. And he had one other, the Administration,

NixonMy point is, my point is, he tells you, I tell you what we have to do though. I know that Malek is busy over at the Committee, but what is, he's got to get the team ready now.

HaldemanWe are. Dan Jones is working full-time on it.

NixonHas he got the names?

HaldemanYes, sir.

NixonAll right, are we dealing with these, are we, the staff, and so we can send anybody through these departments and, and say, are we going to build strong enough,

HaldemanIt's a project that's, that's just going on, full tilt, that nobody knows anything about.

NixonGood.

HaldemanAs it should.

NixonNow, through all departments, but remember the agencies, too. Like remember the VA, and the goddamn.

NixonClean those babies out.

HaldemanYes, sir.

HaldemanClean them out. We've got, some of them we've, we get pretty good help.

NixonYeah. Not that. Look, take out Parks Service. They've been screwing us for four years.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonAnd then Rogers Morton, because they suck around him, and he won't get rid of that son of a bitch.

NixonWell, he's gotta go.

NixonParks Service, well, we inherited him.

NixonYou know, he's no goddamn good.

NixonHe's just an us-kiss-asser.

NixonWhen it comes politically,

Nixonhe don't allow that to happen.

NixonThat's the thing that I really, I try to get across here. They don't get it around here.

HaldemanThat's right. They really don't.

NixonIt's just, it's going to be hard, and some of the cabinet officers will likely to have to go, too,

Nixonbecause they don't-

HaldemanWell, we've had, we've all worried about our press, you know, that we don't want to look like the White House is screwing things up and all that.

NixonThat's right. That's right.

HaldemanAnd, now, let the stories get out, and they will. You'll see a huge rash of stories this fall about the ruthless White House staff [unintelligible]

Haldemanto know these dirty bastards that are undercutting the whole U.S. government.

NixonThat's right.

HaldemanAnd, if you are prepared to ride through a few weeks of those-

NixonRide through it.

Haldeman-you'll end up with one hell of a government.

NixonAnd, what the American people love it.

HaldemanThat's right, exactly.

NixonThey'll shout right on, all the way.

HaldemanBoy.

NixonI said, "Yes, we're going to have a housecleaning. It's time for a new team."

NixonPeriod.

NixonWe, we didn't do it, we came in before, but now we have a mandate.

HaldemanThat's what I said.

NixonAnd one of the mandates is doing the cleaning out that we didn't do in '68.

HaldemanAnd we can be nice about it. It's no reflection on anybody. It's just that the time has come for new leadership, new leadership.

NixonThey had their shot long enough. We did it their way, and say, "This has gotta be done with some of our own"

NixonI said, don't say we did it their way because some of our own people, [unintelligible] Some of the other men here suck around the other side.

NixonAll of a sudden, they're just as bad as the other.

HaldemanWell, the other, at least we know who they are. Some of our own, we think are our own, but they're worse than the, you know, the enemy because they don't do anything.

HaldemanWell, they don't hurt us, but they don't help us.

HaldemanYou know, just watching a campaign like this, man, you learn an awful lot about people, when you see their crunch come down.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanYou and I've been through a bunch of them, dear.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanYou learn an awful lot about people. Wow.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonSome surprises, and-

HaldemanA lot of surprises on both sides.

NixonWell, it's hard, I will say, people that,

Nixonpeople who are generally educated, you know, particularly the people who are educated,

Nixoneducation takes character out of people.

NixonIt it puts brains in and takes guts out,

Nixonand the trouble is that,

Nixonthat, that's why in war, except for the British upper class,

Nixonthe American upper class never done a goddamn thing in war.

NixonThe heroes in war, generally speaking, are

Nixonthose hard-hat sons-of-bitches, you know, and those poor dumb bastards that went out there and got the medals of honor.

HaldemanI'm fighting for the country.

NixonThat's right.

NixonThose are the guys that are dying over there.

NixonAnd a few professionals.

NixonBut, my point is, is that what we have here is the upper class, and frankly the Republican upper class, and conservative upper class is a little better

Nixonthan the Democratic upper class.

NixonBut you've got to remember, they are conservative, they have,

Nixonthey read the papers, they're affected by the media, they think they're smart,

Nixonand all that sort of thing,

Nixonand they don't realize,

Nixonand, and they just can't face up to being like a, like a Rizzo.

NixonNow, Rizzo come there, he's tough son of a bitch.

HaldemanYeah.

NixonWhen they started, they stopped harder early, and they, they have, they have this, this McGovern thing which throws up our parade, what did we do when they come in?

NixonChrist, we put on hot lunches for the goddamn demonstrators.

HaldemanIn the guns.

NixonThat's right.

NixonRizzo wouldn't do that, you know.

NixonThat's the difference of reaction, you see.

NixonIt is, it is very rare that you find people with education to have steel.

NixonVery rare.

NixonAnd now, today,

Nixonit used to be that way,

Nixonbut it's happened because of the-

Nixonbecause of what has happened to the colleges and universities.

NixonThe British upper-class,

Nixonunfortunately was all killed off in World War I, and World War II, but not much of it was left.

NixonIt was straight through World War I and II, of course they, they were magnificent. They had this-

Nixonthe better-educated ones were the leaders, that's why they lost more officers than anybody else.

HaldemanI kind of fancy through the Australians-

NixonOh, no, no, the British who fought, the Australian, that's right, they're tough people down there.

NixonThe British, the British, also, the back of their education, they figured it, I mean a college man, basically,

Nixonfeels that he's got a greater responsibility than that dumb clown that didn't finish fourth grade.

NixonWell, you don't find that attitude much in our country.

NixonGod damn little.

NixonNot now.

NixonWho they help with the draft dodgers?

NixonWhy they're those poor bastards that can't read and write? Hell no.

HaldemanWell,

Haldemaneh, they will fix that.

HaldemanA few years yet.

NixonYou want to acquire the little talk with Homer Hanson? Sure.

HaldemanAll right now, how about the [unintelligible] the bill for HR 2?

NixonWhat's that? He's for it?

HaldemanYeah, he is, establishing the military medical school.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanOf course, that the Secretary of Defense, and you know-

NixonHebert, Hebert is for it. Hébert's got some guts.

HaldemanHe sure does.

Nixon[unintelligible]

HaldemanAll right sir, we'll get him.

Dean’s first Watergate meeting with the President

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Dean’s first Watergate meeting with the President

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on September 15, 1972

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