{"conversationCode":"781-031","tapeNumber":781,"conversationNumber":31,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-781-031","startDateTime":"1972-09-18T20:30:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-09-18T20:30:00.000Z","startDate":"18-Sep-1972","startTime":"4:30 PM","endDate":"18-Sep-1972","endTime":"4:30 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.; Bull, Stephen B.;","description":"On September 18, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at 4:30 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 781-031 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 781-31\n\nDate: September 18, 1972\nTime: 4:30 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nRonald L. Ziegler met with Stephen B. Bull.\n\n             The President's schedule\n\n             Letter to Mrs. Theodore Bennahum\n\n             The President’s schedule\n                 -Theodore H. White\n                     -Photograph session\n                          -Oliver F. (“Ollie”) Atkins\n\nThe President entered at 4:30 pm.\n\n             The President’s schedule\n                 -White\n\n             Letter to Mrs. Bennahum\n                 -Timing\n                 -Raymond K. Price, Jr.\n                       -White\n                 -Theodore Bennahum’s support for the President\n\n             The President’s schedule\n                 -Ziegler\n                 -White\n                     -Forthcoming meeting\n\n                           -Ground rules\n                                -Quotes\n                                    -Use\n                                      -Time, Life\n                                      -[The Making of the President, 1972]\n                           -Duration\n                           -Interuption\n                                -Kenneth C. Rietz meeting\n                  -[Willie E. Brock, III]\n\nZiegler and Bull left at 4:30 pm.\n\n                                                   Conversation No. 781-32/782-1\n\nDate: September 18, 1972\nTime: 4:31 pm - 5:30 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Theodore H. White.\n\n             [Photograph session]\n                 -Oval Office\n                     -Executive Office Building [EOB]\n                     -Furnishings\n                          -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon\n                 -Photograph copies\n\n             White's forthcoming book [The Making of the President, 1972]\n\nManolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 4:31 p.m.\n\n             Refreshments\n\nSanchez left at an unknown time before 5:30 p.m.\n\n                  -1960 campaign\n                  -Political conventions\n                  -Re-election campaigns\n\n                  -[Thomas] Woodrow Wilson\n                  -Franklin D. Roosevelt\n                  -Dwight D. Eisenhower\n              -Secret Service protection\n                  -Rose F. Kennedy\n                       -Edward M. Kennedy\n                           -George C. Wallace\n\n*****************************************************************\n\nBEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1\n[Personal returnable]\n[Duration: 16m 6s     ]\n\nEND WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n          Issues\n              -George S. McGovern\n                  -Southern states\n                      -Texas rallies\n                      -Support for the President\n                      -Race\n                      -Work\n                      -Patriotism\n                      -Amnesty issue\n                      -Vietnam speeches by the President\n                      -Work ethic\n                           -North\n                                -Marijuana\n                           -Bible belt\n\n*****************************************************************\n\nBEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2\n[Personal returnable]\n\n[Duration: 6m 50s    ]\n\nEND WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n            The President’s schedule\n\n            [The Making of the President, 1968]\n\n            White's previous book\n               -Conversation with the President after 1968 election\n                     -Hotel Pierre\n                     -1969 Presidential priorities\n                         -Possible arms deal\n                              -Soviet Union\n                         -Middle East\n                         -Vietnam War\n                         -The People's Republic of China [PRC]\n                         -Africa\n                         -Plans\n                              -Comparison to George H. (“Babe”) Ruth\n                                   -Charlie Root\n                         -Soviet Union\n                         -PRC\n                         -Middle East\n\n            Domestic Affairs\n\n            Foreign policy\n                -Vietnam\n                    -Negotiations\n                -PRC\n                -Soviet union\n                    -Negotiations and cooperation\n                -US prestige in Europe\n                    -Japan\n                    -Southeast Asia\n                -Pakistan-India relations\n\n    -World situation\n        -The President’s view\n        -PRC\n        -White’s final chapter in forthcoming book\n    -Great statesmen\n        -Henry A. Kissinger\n        -Trip to Soviet Union\n             -Meeting with Leonid I. Brezhnev\n        -Chou En-Lai\n        -The President\n        -Konrad Adenauer\n        -Charles A.J.M. De Gaulle\n        -Winston S. Churchill\n        -[Maurice] Harold MacMillan\n        -Eisenhower\n        -Soviet Union\n             -Brezhnev\n        -PRC\n             -Chou\n             -Mao Tse-Tung\n        -Japan\n             -Nobosuke Kishi\n             -Eisaku Sato\n             -Shigeru Yoshida\n             -Kekuei Tanaka\n             -Effect of 1972 election\n                 -The President’s view\n\nThe President’s policies\n    -1968 election\n    -Effect of press\n    -Effect of Establishment\n    -Relations with PRC\n        -Japan\n    -Soviet union\n        -PRC\n        -Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty [SALT] II\n        -Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions [MBFR]\n             -Europe\n        -Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe [CSCE]\n    -1972 election\n\n        -Churchill\n             -Potsdam analogy\n    -US relations\n        -Japan\n        -PRC\n        -Europe\n             -Role of US\n             -Arms\n             -Armed forces\n             -Avoiding Finlandization\n        -Middle East\n             -William P. Rogers\n             -Commitment to Israel\n    -Africa policy\n    -Latin America policy\n        -Need for changes\n    -The President’s conversation with Kissinger on foreign policy\n        -Importance of mandate\n        -Public support at home\n             -News media\n                  -Time, Newsweek, New York Times, Washington Post\n                      -Effect\n                        -Europe, Japan, Soviet Union, PRC\n    -May 8, 1972 speech on mining and bombing\n        -US-Soviet Union summit\n\nDomestic policy\n   -The President’s view\n       -Role of Congress\n   -Harry S. Truman\n       -80th Congress\n            -Taft-Hartley bill\n            -Foreign aid\n                -Greece, Turkey\n                -Marshall Plan\n   -Vietnam\n       -Congressional action\n   -Congress\n   -McGovern\n       -Bipartisan tradition\n            -Welfare proposals\n\n             -Strong national defense and foreign policy\n                  -George Meany\n                  -John B. Connally\n             -Redistribution of wealth\n    -Truman\n    -Congressional opposition\n        -80th Congress\n             -Truman\n                  -Taft-Hartley bill\n                  -Taxes\n                  -Price controls\n    -The President's accomplishments\n        -Post Office\n        -Revenue sharing\n             -Nelson A. Rockefeller\n             -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew\n        -Elliot L. Richardson\n             -Welfare reform, taxes, health, government reorganization\n             -The President’s recent meeting with Congress\n                  -92nd Congress\n                  -93rd Congress\n    -Congress\n        -Effect of the President's possible mandate\n             -House\n             -Senate\n        -Mandate\n        -Truman in 1946\n             -Succession upon Roosevelt's death\n             -Mandate\n             -Republicans\n             -Domestic policy\n    -1972 campaign\n        -Congress\n        -Welfare increase\n        -Fiscal responsibility\n\nThe President’s schedule\n    -[William E. Brock, III]\n\nDomestic policy\n   -Changes\n\n                      -The President's nomination by Rockefeller\n                           -The President's meeting with Rockefeller\n                      -Poverty program\n                           -1960s decade\n                      -John D. Ehrlichman and Henry A. Kissinger\n                           -Louis P. Harris\n                               -\"Change that works\"\n                           -American public opinion\n                               -Government reorganization\n                               -Constitutional change\n                               -Cities\n                               -Samuel Lubell\n                               -Harris, George H. Gallup\n                      -Rockefeller\n                           -Transportation, housing\n                      -Pragmatism of administration\n                      -Congress\n                      -Efficiency\n                      -Responsiveness\n                      -Goals\n\n             The President's view of first term\n                 -Protest\n                     -Demonstrators\n\n[An unknown portion of the conversation was not recorded at this time while the tape was\nchanged]","filename":["781-031.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L.","Bull, Stephen B."],"prevCode":"781-030","nextCode":"781-032","transcript":[{"start":7.86,"end":23.12,"text":"I don't know what you're saying."},{"start":24,"end":25.96,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":39.53,"end":40.81,"text":"No, I think it's better."},{"start":76.95,"end":77.88,"text":"Yeah, I saw that."},{"start":78.1,"end":84.6,"text":"He's very appreciative of the fact that I said he understood about it then."},{"start":85.74,"end":85.9,"text":"Yes."},{"start":85.96,"end":88.16,"text":"He wrote a letter to you expressing his science for you."},{"start":88.24,"end":88.76,"text":"I'm so sorry."},{"start":88.84,"end":91.3,"text":"I believe the letter is going out tonight."},{"start":91.32,"end":92.98,"text":"I'm not sure."},{"start":93,"end":99.77,"text":"It's a very long letter."},{"start":99.99,"end":103.43,"text":"I don't know who actually prepared it."},{"start":103.45,"end":105.65,"text":"Well, you just check to see that the letter"},{"start":106.34,"end":107.9,"text":"It's a personal thing."},{"start":107.92,"end":116.22,"text":"I just want to be sure it's personal, not just to bring the butter up."},{"start":116.24,"end":116.62,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":116.66,"end":119.4,"text":"He's mentioned since the letter."},{"start":119.42,"end":122.2,"text":"I don't think he needs to stay."},{"start":122.33,"end":124.48,"text":"No, I know."},{"start":125.58,"end":130.61,"text":"I think it would be better if I did."},{"start":130.65,"end":133.75,"text":"Oh, incidentally, I'll double check with him."},{"start":134.49,"end":141.67,"text":"Nothing is to be used in this conversation except for the book, obviously, which comes out after the election."},{"start":141.69,"end":146.85,"text":"Nothing for time of life, nothing for TV analysis, nothing for anything except for the book."},{"start":149.11,"end":150.37,"text":"And he's talked to staff."},{"start":151.15,"end":156.39,"text":"What do you expect, 45 minutes?"},{"start":156.41,"end":159.03,"text":"25, 30, 45 minutes."},{"start":159.05,"end":161.21,"text":"So I'm not interrupting a train of thought or anything."},{"start":161.31,"end":161.61,"text":"I'm 430 down."},{"start":163.95,"end":165.73,"text":"I can interrupt this thing with the senator."},{"start":165.75,"end":169.38,"text":"No, no, we've got reads coming in."},{"start":169.57,"end":171.76,"text":"Well, I can just read something."},{"start":171.96,"end":174.16,"text":"Let's make that a fine of 530."},{"start":174.24,"end":175.1,"text":"All right."},{"start":175.12,"end":175.88,"text":"Approximately 420."},{"start":176.66,"end":177.86,"text":"You come in and say that."},{"start":178.56,"end":179.94,"text":"I will say to the senator."},{"start":180.02,"end":180.93,"text":"Oh, that's the senator."},{"start":180.94,"end":180.93,"text":"530."},{"start":181.06,"end":181.6,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":181.65,"end":186.93,"text":"Senator's here for his point."},{"start":187.05,"end":187.37,"text":"All right."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with Ronald Ziegler and Stephen Bull to finalize administrative details regarding his upcoming schedule and a personal letter to Mrs. Theodore Bennahum. The President emphasized strict ground rules for a forthcoming interview with author Theodore H. White, stipulating that the discussion was to be used exclusively for White's book and prohibited from appearing in media outlets like Time or Life before the election. Additionally, the group coordinated timing adjustments for a subsequent meeting with a senator to ensure the President's schedule remained fluid and uninterrupted.","topics":["Presidential scheduling","Theodore H. White","Media relations","The Making of the President 1972","White House correspondence"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T23:32:50.175Z"},"topicSlugs":["presidential-scheduling","theodore-h-white","media-relations","the-making-of-the-president-1972","white-house-correspondence"],"audioDurationSec":206,"audioFiles":[{"file":"781-031.mp3","bytes":4946546,"durationSec":206.05,"bitrate":192049,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:57.945Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:32.288Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/781-031.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/781-031","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/781/conversation-781-031","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}