{"conversationCode":"782-001","tapeNumber":782,"conversationNumber":1,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-782-001","startDateTime":"1972-09-18T20:31:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-09-18T21:30:00.000Z","startDate":"18-Sep-1972","startTime":"4:31 PM","endDate":"18-Sep-1972","endTime":"5:30 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); White, Theodore H.; Bull, Stephen B.; Sanchez, Manolo;","description":"On September 18, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Theodore H. White, Stephen B. Bull, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:31 pm and 5:30 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 782-001 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 781-32/782-1\n\nDate: September 18, 1972\nTime: Unknown between 4:31 pm - 5:30 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Theodore H. White.\n\n[An unknown portion of the conversation was not recorded while the tape was changed.]\n\n            The President's review of first term\n                -Congress\n                    -Republican split\n                         -[Thomas] Woodrow Wilson\n                              -Third parties\n                                  -George C. Wallace\n                              -Democratic vote\n                    -Democratic split\n                         -Wallace\n                              -Republican vote\n\n            The President’s second term\n                -Opportunities\n                    -The President’s view\n                    -Foreign policy\n                         -Structure of peace\n                              -The President’s view\n                -Domestic policies\n                    -The President’s State of the Union speeches\n                         -Environmental policies\n                         -New American Revolution\n                    -Government reorganization\n                    -Welfare reform\n                    -Six great goals\n                    -Health\n                    -Revenue sharing\n                    -100 days of Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1933\n                         -The President’s trip to California\n                              -Press\n                    -The President’s view\n                                               2\n                      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF\n\n                                        Tape Subject Log\n                                          (rev. Nov-03)\n\n                          -Values\n                          -Pride\n\nStephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 4:31 pm.\n\n             The President's schedule\n                 -Executive Office Building [EOB]\n                     -Forthcoming meeting\n                          -William E. Brock, III\n\nBull left at an unknown time before 5:30 pm.\n\n             Foreign policy\n                 -White’s book [The Making of the President, 1972]\n                     -Deadline\n                     -Next term\n                 -The President's trip to the People's Republic of China [PRC]\n                     -The President’s view\n                          -Leaks\n                              -PRC, Soviet Union\n                     -The President’s previous conversation with White, 1967\n                          -New York\n                 -US-Soviet Union relations\n                     -Effect on US allies\n                 -Middle East\n                 -Peace\n                     -1976\n                 -Uganda\n                 -Latin America\n\n             Peace in Europe\n\n             Vietnam\n                 -Paris negotiations\n                     -The President’s view\n                 -Korea\n\n             1972 campaign\n                 -1956 campaign\n\n             The President's schedule\n                 -EOB office\n                                               3\n                        NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF\n\n                                      Tape Subject Log\n                                        (rev. Nov-03)\n\n                      -White\n\nManolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 4:31 pm.\n\n             Instructions from the President\n                  -Residence\n\nThe President, White and Sanchez left at 5:30 pm.","filename":["782-001.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","White, Theodore H.","Bull, Stephen B.","Sanchez, Manolo"],"prevCode":"781-033","nextCode":"782-002","transcript":[{"start":1.12,"end":3.75,"text":"We got through it a lot because, you see, he had Congress."},{"start":4.46,"end":5.23,"text":"That's what it is, right?"},{"start":5.31,"end":5.57,"text":"Remember?"},{"start":6.15,"end":7.55,"text":"Wilson had a Democratic Congress."},{"start":8.17,"end":16.09,"text":"But we, on our third-party situation, let me put it this way, with our third-party situation, it happened."},{"start":16.71,"end":19.36,"text":"Wallace suffered us more than the other side."},{"start":20.04,"end":24.08,"text":"Whereas, in Wilson's case, you see, he was just looking around."},{"start":24.14,"end":25.88,"text":"And the Republicans, because they're all welcome."},{"start":26.06,"end":27.66,"text":"But what they're having is, we're at Wilson's."},{"start":30.69,"end":31.29,"text":"Not this time."},{"start":31.71,"end":35.87,"text":"While Wallace was a Democrat, he was taking basically what was ours."},{"start":35.97,"end":39.16,"text":"But anyway, the first four years have been difficult."},{"start":39.45,"end":42.72,"text":"The next four years will not be easy."},{"start":43.3,"end":52.36,"text":"But they will provide enormous opportunities to exploit the breakthroughs that we made in foreign policy, to leave a real structure of peace."},{"start":52.58,"end":54.18,"text":"The world will never be totally peaceful."},{"start":54.2,"end":56.06,"text":"Men are always going to fight."},{"start":56.62,"end":60.26,"text":"There's always going to be a need for outcomes, because there are bad people"},{"start":61.27,"end":63.37,"text":"They're bad leaders, and they're good leaders."},{"start":63.57,"end":65.09,"text":"And it will always be that way."},{"start":65.11,"end":68.56,"text":"I am, unfortunately, not one of those who believes in perfectibility of man."},{"start":68.58,"end":74.32,"text":"I wish he were so, but this is the way history tells me the world works."},{"start":74.88,"end":84.47,"text":"But on the domestic front, what we have here, you see, is an opportunity that we just couldn't even dream of when we came in before."},{"start":84.86,"end":90.41,"text":"Sure, I made some outstanding State of the Union proposals"},{"start":90.99,"end":96.19,"text":"the quality of life, you know, an environment for us in 1970."},{"start":96.33,"end":104.06,"text":"And then in 1971, the two American revolutions, government reorganization, sixth grade goals, health, welfare, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."},{"start":104.12,"end":104.86,"text":"Where have we gone?"},{"start":105.7,"end":107.58,"text":"Well, revolutionary is a start."},{"start":107.6,"end":108.4,"text":"It's pretty good."},{"start":109.74,"end":110.86,"text":"But there is more to be done."},{"start":111.44,"end":114.63,"text":"But I want to emphasize that I see what more to be done."},{"start":115.61,"end":118.21,"text":"I do not see it in the revolutionary term."},{"start":119.02,"end":119.72,"text":"that we saw in 32."},{"start":120.62,"end":127.12,"text":"I spoke of the 100 days when I was out in California with the press about three or four weeks ago."},{"start":127.54,"end":134.21,"text":"But when I speak of the 100 days, I do not, as I said to them, I'm not speaking of the type of 100 days we had."},{"start":134.28,"end":137.43,"text":"And then the nation needed some very strong medicine."},{"start":138.11,"end":142.19,"text":"Now what the nation needs is something quite different."},{"start":142.82,"end":147.38,"text":"We've got to look over all of our institutions."},{"start":147.56,"end":150.27,"text":"And we've got to have a return to the old values."},{"start":150.31,"end":152.69,"text":"We've got to return to the old values."},{"start":153.29,"end":162.02,"text":"We have to reestablish pride in country, pride in work, pride in our institutions, instead of ."},{"start":164.43,"end":175.76,"text":"I'd like to go over to the EOB, and I'm going to go out there and just write a short note on this."},{"start":175.8,"end":180.17,"text":"I hope, frankly, I can see if we get an ad in the election sometime on the group."},{"start":180.31,"end":181.07,"text":"Oh, fine, fine."},{"start":181.91,"end":184.45,"text":"And one thing, NAFTA will be easier, actually."},{"start":185.27,"end":191.6,"text":"I think, and I don't think about it very much, is that I'd rather stick around here for a few foreign policy days."},{"start":193.78,"end":199.53,"text":"But afterwards, it would be, in that period, it would be an easy time."},{"start":199.62,"end":200.85,"text":"It would probably be an easy time."},{"start":202.17,"end":203.39,"text":"What time do you get your deadline?"},{"start":203.41,"end":204.81,"text":"I suppose it's booked by Monday, 15th."},{"start":204.87,"end":207.95,"text":"Oh, but we spoke last time in January after the election."},{"start":207.97,"end":209.75,"text":"We spoke several times in December."},{"start":209.77,"end":213.12,"text":"If after the election, we can go ahead and again, this domestic thing, grant."},{"start":213.22,"end":215.24,"text":"There's one way out."},{"start":215.38,"end":217.44,"text":"What do you all know if you can afford that?"},{"start":217.76,"end":219.66,"text":"I'm not prepared to talk about some of them yet."},{"start":220.55,"end":225.29,"text":"There's one other thing I would like to take up with you some future day."},{"start":226.25,"end":229.89,"text":"I don't know how far I can probe you on the Peking visit."},{"start":229.91,"end":230.11,"text":"Oh, sure."},{"start":230.15,"end":232.79,"text":"I'd love to be able to talk to you before I..."},{"start":232.81,"end":233.15,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":233.17,"end":234.07,"text":"How it really happened."},{"start":234.41,"end":236.61,"text":"How it really happened."},{"start":237.39,"end":238.69,"text":"I would like to bring this book."},{"start":239.25,"end":239.49,"text":"Oh, wait."},{"start":239.53,"end":242.03,"text":"How it came about or what happened when we were there."},{"start":242.39,"end":245.4,"text":"What happened this winter."},{"start":245.57,"end":247.1,"text":"And I leave that with you as a thought."},{"start":247.44,"end":247.7,"text":"Sure."},{"start":248.06,"end":249.54,"text":"Because if you take..."},{"start":250.47,"end":264.11,"text":"I can talk pretty much about my evaluations of the men, you know, what happened to the Soviets."},{"start":265.31,"end":275.62,"text":"It really was, of course,"},{"start":281.28,"end":286.36,"text":"the most unexpected and the most important thing in the history of the world."},{"start":286.46,"end":288.4,"text":"Unexpected because you said that to me in 1967."},{"start":288.54,"end":290.38,"text":"I know, you're one of the few."},{"start":290.52,"end":296.62,"text":"At the moment that you said that to me, that I came over to Nixon's side, there were 67 back there in New York who said, I've got to do it."},{"start":296.66,"end":300.94,"text":"So I had not, but I got most impressed to think it was ever going to happen."},{"start":301.18,"end":310.3,"text":"But it did, and, uh... Well, that, you see, is where the world, the old world breaks down."},{"start":311.8,"end":312.5,"text":"That's right."},{"start":313.58,"end":318.23,"text":"And really had a chance to make a tree, a fucking tree."},{"start":318.26,"end":318.76,"text":"That's the case."},{"start":318.88,"end":325.95,"text":"And which I don't even take for a place like the Middle East, the way they're, that's a, well, it'll probably work out."},{"start":325.97,"end":332.97,"text":"But then again, you know where it's going to be settling."},{"start":333.27,"end":335.19,"text":"Between Russia and the United States."},{"start":336.81,"end":340.01,"text":"They just got to some way or other without, of course, either of us"},{"start":340.86,"end":343.5,"text":"getting in the doghouse with our ally, our friend."},{"start":344.38,"end":345.08,"text":"And that is tough."},{"start":345.24,"end":349.69,"text":"Basically, if we don't get the Russians to quit dabbling around, we've got to dabble."},{"start":349.83,"end":350.71,"text":"What's that?"},{"start":350.73,"end":359.07,"text":"I just think it would be a wonderful thing to leave this place in 1976 without a gun shooting anywhere."},{"start":359.57,"end":359.95,"text":"Oh, God."},{"start":359.97,"end":361.25,"text":"I want that to happen before 76."},{"start":363.37,"end":363.65,"text":"Oh, yes."},{"start":363.67,"end":364.61,"text":"Yes, I want that."},{"start":365.01,"end":366.59,"text":"I'd have to leave after that."},{"start":367.29,"end":367.47,"text":"Yes."},{"start":367.49,"end":368.11,"text":"I want that."},{"start":368.13,"end":368.63,"text":"I'd like that."},{"start":368.65,"end":368.81,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":372.72,"end":384.74,"text":"But I think as far as Europe is concerned, as far as Asia is concerned, I think it can be done."},{"start":384.82,"end":388.42,"text":"I think it can be done."},{"start":388.44,"end":397.34,"text":"And I think it's going to come."},{"start":403.13,"end":405.8,"text":"They're not still in hand, sir."},{"start":405.81,"end":409.68,"text":"But as you know, they're still in the law."},{"start":409.7,"end":414.16,"text":"We aren't just twiddling our thumbs in Paris."},{"start":414.2,"end":415.74,"text":"We can't say we're not twiddling our thumbs in Paris."},{"start":415.94,"end":417.76,"text":"You feel some part of us don't you?"},{"start":417.79,"end":424.21,"text":"I won't say that because the moment you're out there, what they're so sensitive about is whether or not it is."},{"start":424.23,"end":430.12,"text":"I'll tell you what, the real problem is whether they really have to 25 years of war."},{"start":432.27,"end":433.12,"text":"whether they want to make these ."},{"start":433.18,"end":435.92,"text":"The Koreans did."},{"start":435.96,"end":437.66,"text":"They finally decided what they had."},{"start":437.68,"end":440.78,"text":"I mean, now they had to step up to the divided country."},{"start":440.8,"end":442.86,"text":"Now the question is, what are these people with these premises?"},{"start":442.96,"end":455.29,"text":"But it's very, let me say, if any rational people were involved, there wouldn't be any question, because the evidence is too strong."},{"start":456.63,"end":456.93,"text":"We'll see."},{"start":456.95,"end":459.05,"text":"I must say, you'll have the answer to that."},{"start":459.62,"end":461.76,"text":"What are you going to wait for me to decide?"},{"start":477.93,"end":479.53,"text":"They won't be like the others."},{"start":479.55,"end":484.21,"text":"They're not going to go dancing across six reaches a day and all that."},{"start":484.29,"end":486.45,"text":"Look, I told you this is 1956."},{"start":486.5,"end":488.4,"text":"I suppose age creates an affection."},{"start":488.46,"end":490.28,"text":"You know, the only men in this policy are longer than me."},{"start":490.3,"end":490.92,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":491.26,"end":494.66,"text":"You want me to come with you?"},{"start":494.68,"end":495.82,"text":"Yeah, I'll walk with you."},{"start":495.84,"end":497.62,"text":"I think it looks like you've seen this building."},{"start":499.54,"end":501.08,"text":"You've never seen that?"},{"start":501.18,"end":502.04,"text":"Or were you with the OVP?"},{"start":502.1,"end":503.46,"text":"I'm at an office."},{"start":503.9,"end":505.06,"text":"Did you come over to see me there?"},{"start":505.1,"end":505.56,"text":"No, I didn't."},{"start":505.7,"end":506.23,"text":"You're at home?"},{"start":511.65,"end":513.97,"text":"Uh, that can go to, uh, the residents."},{"start":514.03,"end":514.97,"text":"Yes, my way back."},{"start":515.25,"end":516.23,"text":"And, uh, anytime."},{"start":516.33,"end":526.28,"text":"And, uh, I'll go over here."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with political journalist Theodore H. White to discuss the administration's political philosophy and the President's vision for a potential second term. The conversation covered a wide range of topics, including foreign policy objectives, the necessity of returning to traditional American values, and the state of the 1972 campaign. Nixon expressed his desire to establish a lasting structure of peace and indicated a willingness to provide White with detailed insights into his diplomatic initiatives, specifically the historic visit to the People's Republic of China, for use in White's ongoing book project.","topics":["Foreign policy","Domestic policy","1972 presidential campaign","Political values","Theodore H. White","Diplomacy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T23:33:07.314Z"},"topicSlugs":["foreign-policy","domestic-policy","1972-presidential-campaign","political-values","theodore-h-white","diplomacy"],"audioDurationSec":531,"audioFiles":[{"file":"782-001.mp3","bytes":12745037,"durationSec":530.97,"bitrate":192025,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:57.945Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/782-001.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/782-001","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/782/conversation-782-001","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}