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Conversation 786-002

TapeTape 786StartMonday, September 25, 1972 at 9:24 AMEndMonday, September 25, 1972 at 9:39 AMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceOval Office
AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger met to discuss managing the public narrative regarding North Vietnam's recent release of three American prisoners of war (POWs). Nixon directed his staff to counter George McGovern's criticisms by presenting the facts through press secretary Ron Ziegler rather than engaging in direct political combat. Additionally, the pair coordinated future diplomatic and military strategy, with Kissinger outlining his plan to warn North Vietnamese negotiators that continued exploitation of POWs for propaganda would result in severe U.S. repercussions, including intensified bombing campaigns post-election.

Prisoners of WarVietnam WarHenry KissingerGeorge McGovernPropagandaMilitary Strategy1972 Presidential Election
AudioNARA Description

On September 25, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:24 am to 9:39 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 786-002 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation no. 786-2

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

Date: September 25, 1972
Time: 9:24 am - 9:39 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.

            Kissinger’s schedule

            Prisoners of war [POWs]
                -Release of three Americans
                     -George S. McGovern’s accusation
                         -Telegram from peace groups
                              -Civilian airplanes
                         -Hanoi
                              -Propaganda
                         -Melvin R. Laird’s reply
                              -Hanoi
                                  -Propaganda
                     -Telegram
                         -Civilian airplanes
                         -Administration reply
                              -Telegram
                                  -Defense Department
                     -Fate upon return
                     -Administration telegram
                         -Tone
                         -US officials
                         -Defense Depratment
                     -Ronald L. Ziegler’s possible statement
                     -McGovern
                     -Return to families
                     -Propaganda
                     -McGovern
                         -Ziegler
                              -Presentation of facts, Administration policy

*****************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

                                       (rev. Nov-03)

[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 1m 36s     ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

*****************************************************************

            Vietnam negotiations
                -Recent release of three American POWs
                -Bombing
                     -Public opinion
                -Kissinger’s considered action
                -Air war policy
                     -Laird
                     -Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
                         -Report
                              -Timing
                     -Post 1972 election policy coordination of air war
                         -Gen. John W. Vogt, Jr.
                     -[Hanoi]
                -Conduct of Kissinger
                     -Le Duc Tho
                         -Views of the President on POW release
                              -Ultimatum
                                   -Advisability
                         -Violation of agreement
                         -The President’s warnings
                              -Offensive
                              -POWs
                         -Future negotiations
                              -POWs
                                   -Hanoi
                -Use of POWs
                     -Speeches

*****************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4
[Personal returnable]

                                         (rev. Nov-03)

[Duration: 2m 24s    ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 4

*****************************************************************

                McGovern’s family
                   -[Terry McGovern]
                       -Marijuana use
                   -[Susan McGovern]
                       -James Rowen
                            -Hobart Rowen
                            -New Mexico

*****************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 37s        ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6

*****************************************************************

            Kissinger's schedule
                -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.

            The President's schedule
                -California

            Kissinger’s schedule
                -Forthcoming telephone call to the President

            Vietnam negotiations
                -Rationality of North Vietnamese
                -1972 election

                                         (rev. Nov-03)

                      -Ultimatum
                           -Bombing
                  -Haig
                      -Nguyen Van Thieu
                      -Post-1972 election military plans

Kissinger left at 9:39 am.
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I've been worried.
On your way?
Yes, I'm on my way.
I wanted to talk to you for three minutes about this prisoner thing.
We've now received, you know, my governor has said I accused us of playing politics with the prisoners.
No, I didn't, sir.
I don't believe in politics.
Because...
He just accepted the peacemakes.
The peacemake group sent us a telegram on Friday to which we never replied because we don't deal with the peacemakes, which said they had to go back on civilian planes and so forth, which we are prepared to agree to as long as they express their choice to us.
But he, McGovern, said they're playing politics.
We're keeping them in Hanoi and insisting that we can use them for propaganda when they come home.
It was an irresponsible statement.
Laird hit back last night, and I told him he could do it.
He's the one who should.
Saying it's a despicable act to play propaganda, to make oneself the masterpiece of the noise propaganda.
Now this POW can send us a telegram saying they want to go home by civilian planes.
So I think we should send them a telegram.
We should do two things.
One, we should send them a telegram from defense.
From defense.
They get back there and be destroyed, though.
I mean, of any of these people that do this, there's going to be no mercy.
I couldn't agree more.
Or do you agree?
Completely.
I don't believe in any mercy for people that did this to their country.
Of course, you can't be sure what people are exposed to in Hanoi.
But anyway, we should send a low-key telegram saying that there is staff acceptable to American officials.
And American officials will determine their preference and things.
I don't think we should ever deface them while they're still in Hanoi.
Secondly, I think that Rahm, that should be issued by defense, that Rahm, in answer to the question, should make a very low key statement today.
Saying these prisoners, if I had only one desire to resort them to their families, we've never had an official word from Hanoi.
And if we don't get back at McGovern on something like that, then he's way out on the ground.
That's fine, that's fine.
Because this involves us anyway, this is our decision.
I think we can also say that our desire is to get them to return them to family and we question their choices.
And that they should not be used for propaganda by anybody.
That would be, I would think that would be a, for them to be, for them to engage in any propaganda activities.
Do you agree?
And it's regrettable that Senator McGovern would choose to comment without informing himself on elementary facts which were easily available to him.
No, I let him off.
I would never say that.
That gets him to the White House.
I would simply say...
He does the facts.
I lay out the facts.
Ron should lay out the facts.
He should say, I'm not going to comment on Senator McGovern.
I want him to say that.
I don't comment.
Here are the facts.
And lay out the facts.
See, that's what it means.
Men would comment, but say that he isn't commenting.
This is our policy.
Now, I thought, with your permission, Mr. President, I will really be brutal to them about these prisoners.
Well, I was going to say, I didn't know that I did.
And that's the most shameful thing, and I would almost think you'd have to knock off the college.
It's got bombs on it more.
You know what I mean?
The public mood is not going to be kicked around.
Mr. President, I thought it through, so I'd walk out of the meeting.
But then it doesn't serve our purposes now.
We are bombing...
Then it's hard.
Not if you've got that order layered.
Yeah.
Tomorrow.
Tomorrow.
He's your, he's your... Did he, does he know that he, that we, and he's giving me a report that I'm going to have Wednesday, right?
Right.
Did you ask him for a report?
That's what gets...
Right, in writing.
Good.
Because... Oh, they screwed us.
Oh, they screwed us, but what we have to do the day after the election
to put one man in charge of the air war over there they have screwed us they have they have wasted three months I mean the air war is going to be totally changed we're going to bomb that goddamn city right in the smithereens that's why I don't think it's worthwhile to go to combat I'm going to tell these assholes what I'm going to say first of all
I had a question to say.
I go in around here, and I put on a little hat.
The lead up to me said, I just had, before I hit, I just arrived on the plane.
One of the most, one of the most difficult experiences that I've had in my almost four years of service to Christ.
He called me in.
He was outraged.
You know, the president is a man who's very patient.
He's a man I can trust.
He doesn't allow emotion to arrive at any end.
But the way you have this person in this operation, he has told me he doesn't care what happens.
If that's the way you want to play, then you have made your choice, and he has other options, and he'll use those options.
Put him that way.
He's outraged, and I just don't know what to tell him.
I want you to tell me, but we're not going to go forward in this conversation.
We have an explanation of what you're going to discuss.
What do you think?
I don't want to give him an ultimatum because he may not be instructed.
The first part I should say, definitely, I should say I cannot...
I must say, what I thought I would do at the end of the meeting, at first I thought I would walk out, but that's wrong, because that hurts us more than him running.
Then I thought I wouldn't agree to the second day's meeting.
But all of this is head is up.
What I do think is...
I just want you to act up.
I will say what you could.
I said, if you...
To me, it was a display of the misery and a violation of what I understood was our agreement.
And I will say to him, I think the worst mistake you've made time and again is not to take the warnings the President asked me to transmit to you specifically.
He warned you about the offensive.
He's warning you now about the prisoners.
If you continue to play this game, we will know you have made your choice.
To us, this is a profound human problem.
and we will not tolerate it.
Then at the end of the meeting, I thought I would say, I'd agree to another day, but say, I will not come if these prisoners are sitting on the waiting board, so you should just know that.
But you think that the prisoners are just coming back to, you know, on speeches?
Yeah, but I don't think they can count on what these prisoners are going to do.
Well, somebody told me that his daughter was a pot smoker.
That's one.
There's worse, but nevertheless, we're never going to use it.
I don't want anybody to use one of them because I don't want to make even one.
His whole family, one daughter is a pot smoker.
The other one is married to a robot growing son.
They live out in a pad in Mexico in one of these.
Give me colonies.
Oh, did it?
Yeah.
Okay, so what a trash.
So, other people have problems with their families, too.
So, we're going to reset.
I had to plan for that.
I will report to you, Mr. President.
I'll report to you.
I'll give you a report.
When do you get back?
Wednesday.
Well, I'll keep talking to you.
I'll call you.
Absolutely.
You can call me.
Don't.
I'll get back to you.
I'll get back to you.
Well, I'll find a way of talking to you.
Yeah.
Well, you should call when you come in immediately.
I don't know, Henry.
People ask me about this.
I say, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
If there's any rationality at all in these people, I said, this will be something.
But I said, the real question is whether there is any rationality.
Whether it's 25 years, maybe it's all washed up.
That's the question.
That's all it means to me.
The one thing I'm clear about is that after the election,
Maybe we should take a rest for a week, but then we should stop, right?
Alright, I'm not sure if we should.
Come on.
Maybe not even that, but we can't move around.
We can't let this thing go.
I agree.
We've got to put an ultimate amount, and then bomb.
I couldn't agree more.
Oh, I thought Arthur and Christian would be making any progress this time.
Hayden might go out there this weekend to talk to a few, to make sure he hasn't before.
And also...
Get our military plans started on the post-election.
Right.
Good.
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