{"conversationCode":"788-005","tapeNumber":788,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-788-005","startDateTime":"1972-09-29T14:56:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-09-29T15:07:00.000Z","startDate":"29-Sep-1972","startTime":"10:56 AM","endDate":"29-Sep-1972","endTime":"11:07 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Burns, Arthur F.; Bull, Stephen B.;","description":"On September 29, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Arthur F. Burns, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 10:56 am and 11:07 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 788-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 788-5\n\nDate: September 29, 1972\nTime: Unknown between 10:56 am and 11:07 am\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Arthur F. Burns.\n\n             The President's schedule\n                 -Previous meeting with Maurice Schumann\n\n             International Monetary Fund [IMF] meeting\n                  -Burns’s view\n                  -Prices in US\n                       -Foreign reaction to trends in US\n                            -Control\n                            -Production\n                                -Last year’s statistics\n\n             Burns’s schedule\n                 -Stephen B. Bull\n                 -Timing\n                      -1972 Presidential elections\n                          -Burns’s role\n                 -Japan\n                 -India\n\n    -Indonesia\n    -India\n         -The President’s view\n         -Pakistan\n         -Bangladesh\n    -Indonesia\n         -The President’s view\n    -Burns’s previous trips\n         -Singapore\n         -Malaysia\n         -South Korea\n         -Taiwan\n         -Hong Kong\n         -South Korea\n-Possible itinerary\n         -Japan\n         -Indonesia\n         -Iran\n              -Mohammad Reza Pahlavi [Shah of Iran]\n                      -The President’s view\n                      -Israel\n                        -Hussein ibn Talel [Hussein, King of Jordan]\n\nThe US economy\n    -Federal Reserve system\n    -Discount rates\n        -Bank directors\n        -Control of rates\n             -Timing\n        -Stock market\n             -Effect\n             -New York\n             -New Jersey\n             -Connecticut\n             -Joseph P. Kennedy's purchase of stocks in 1960\n                 -Timing\n        -New York Stock Exchange\n             -[James J. Needham], Bernard J. (“Bunny”) Lasker\n    -Money supply and interest rates\n        -Control of prices\n             -The President’s view\n                 -Increases\n\n                 -The president’s view\n                 -Italians\n                 -British\n                      -Current situation\n                      -The President’s forthcoming meeting with Sir\n                       Alexander F. Douglas-Home\n                      -Burns’s view\n                           -Fiscal discipline\n                           -Government control\n                 -American labor unions\n                      -British labor unions\n                      -George Meany\n                 -British\n                      -Attitude\n                           -George P. Shultz\n\nBull entered at an unknown time after 10:54 am.\n\n             The President’s schedule\n                 -Forthcoming meeting with Home\n                 -Forthcoming dinner for Home\n                     -Unknown person’s schedule\n                     -Burns’s schedule\n\nBull left at an unknown time before 11:07 am.\n\nThe President and Burns left at 11:07 am.","filename":["788-005.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Burns, Arthur F.","Bull, Stephen B."],"prevCode":"788-004","nextCode":"788-006","transcript":[{"start":1.01,"end":6.83,"text":"How are you?"},{"start":9.85,"end":13.52,"text":"Sit down."},{"start":16.16,"end":16.82,"text":"Sit down."},{"start":17.18,"end":18.46,"text":"These meetings are going well."},{"start":22.22,"end":26.86,"text":"The foreigners are tremendously impressed with our achievement in this field."},{"start":28.16,"end":28.54,"text":"Are they?"},{"start":28.8,"end":29.66,"text":"They praise us."},{"start":30.78,"end":33.98,"text":"We are the hope of the world now."},{"start":67.36,"end":69.29,"text":"Well, no, it depends on you."},{"start":69.37,"end":73.05,"text":"I've got to go to Japan now."},{"start":73.09,"end":77.77,"text":"Now, in, oh, about a year or so ago, you were eager to have me go to"},{"start":96.3,"end":110.37,"text":"india indonesia but circumstances have certainly changed as far as india is concerned i wanted to know your thinking i don't have to go anywhere let me say this uh i'm not keen"},{"start":126.31,"end":137.93,"text":"I think Indonesia is important because basically it's so rich and they are coming along."},{"start":138.19,"end":146.88,"text":"Let me just think."},{"start":146.92,"end":148.82,"text":"Which one of those places have you not been to?"},{"start":149.1,"end":150.56,"text":"Indonesia."},{"start":150.58,"end":154.52,"text":"Yeah, have you been to Singapore, Malaysia?"},{"start":154.54,"end":155.18,"text":"Not to Malaysia."},{"start":158.64,"end":163.65,"text":"in Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong."},{"start":163.81,"end":165.19,"text":"You've been to Korea, you've done."},{"start":165.73,"end":166.71,"text":"I would do what you can."},{"start":167.11,"end":167.99,"text":"That's where always..."},{"start":192.13,"end":196.61,"text":"He's running a very good show."},{"start":197.05,"end":200.66,"text":"I have a very good personal relationship with him."},{"start":200.68,"end":202.2,"text":"He wanted to go on around the world."},{"start":222.74,"end":224.54,"text":"All right, I want to be thinking on that."},{"start":224.7,"end":225.44,"text":"All right."},{"start":225.78,"end":227.57,"text":"Now, let me just move quickly."},{"start":234.21,"end":238.57,"text":"I have, I'm in trouble with my system."},{"start":249.65,"end":252.41,"text":"from the board of directors from five other callbacks."},{"start":254.41,"end":256.2,"text":"And the other is very uneasy."},{"start":258.42,"end":259.34,"text":"Here is my problem."},{"start":259.74,"end":264.28,"text":"I can still hold on for a while."},{"start":266.54,"end":267.84,"text":"I'm just a little afraid."},{"start":306.42,"end":308.24,"text":"as you know uh"},{"start":370.86,"end":371.1,"text":"Fair enough."},{"start":371.12,"end":371.7,"text":"Believe me."},{"start":372.48,"end":373.18,"text":"Believe me."},{"start":374.14,"end":378.5,"text":"Mr. President, this is almost a miracle this year on the money supply and interest rates."},{"start":378.86,"end":380.06,"text":"I didn't think it was possible."},{"start":380.26,"end":383.35,"text":"Well, I think it's a miracle, too, on the control prices."},{"start":384.19,"end":385.19,"text":"On the control prices?"},{"start":385.35,"end":385.95,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":385.97,"end":390.21,"text":"Who ever thought that the damn thing would work when we talked about the 2% to 3% rate?"},{"start":390.25,"end":393.95,"text":"You know and I know that I thought it was going to be 4% in June."},{"start":394.45,"end":396.97,"text":"But I thought 4% had definitely"},{"start":402.24,"end":427.12,"text":"hang on another thing that's very interesting is the point that you made the American people are still a law-abiding disciplined people that's why we're doing better than the British and the British the British is too bad what's happening in Britain what's going on well they'll come back over"},{"start":429.26,"end":435.25,"text":"They're in great trouble because there's been a discipline that has declined."},{"start":436.39,"end":441.05,"text":"Britain is in a state of sunny hands politically."},{"start":441.47,"end":444.87,"text":"No, we're listening to the labor unions."},{"start":445.03,"end":447.13,"text":"Government doesn't have control."},{"start":447.75,"end":452.62,"text":"You see, our trade unions, they groan, and they kick my head when they obey the law."},{"start":453.5,"end":456.88,"text":"And George Meany, you know me, God bless him."},{"start":456.96,"end":458.26,"text":"He taught us, right?"},{"start":467.19,"end":471.33,"text":"They behaved abominably towards your children."},{"start":471.59,"end":474.39,"text":"Say, his talk went beautifully."},{"start":474.43,"end":475.03,"text":"He behaved badly."},{"start":475.05,"end":476.31,"text":"He behaved badly."},{"start":478.38,"end":481.28,"text":"They are crawling on their knees, and I'll tell it to you."},{"start":481.3,"end":485.42,"text":"I'm giving them hell all around, and I just want you to know that."},{"start":485.46,"end":486.1,"text":"I don't see human."},{"start":515.69,"end":522.15,"text":"Is he still here?"},{"start":522.17,"end":525.27,"text":"Is he coming home?"},{"start":525.41,"end":527.29,"text":"Are you coming?"},{"start":527.75,"end":532.7,"text":"You're coming today."},{"start":532.72,"end":533.22,"text":"It's alright."},{"start":533.5,"end":533.96,"text":"He's coming."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Federal Reserve Chairman Arthur F. Burns met to discuss the international reception of U.S. economic policies, the challenges of managing money supply and interest rates, and the broader contrast between American and British labor discipline. The discussion also covered potential future travel itineraries for Burns to countries including Indonesia and Japan, as well as coordination regarding an upcoming meeting with British Foreign Secretary Sir Alec Douglas-Home. Stephen B. Bull joined briefly to assist with scheduling logistics for the President and Burns.","topics":["Economic policy","Federal Reserve","Labor unions","International relations","Monetary policy","Presidential scheduling"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-07T23:42:19.814Z"},"topicSlugs":["economic-policy","federal-reserve","labor-unions","international-relations","monetary-policy","presidential-scheduling"],"audioDurationSec":554,"audioFiles":[{"file":"788-005.mp3","bytes":13289847,"durationSec":553.68,"bitrate":192022,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:58.287Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:33.516Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/788-005.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/788-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/788/conversation-788-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}