Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 789-006
Date: Saturday, September 30, 1972 at 10:56 AM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Butterfield, Alexander P.; Kissinger, Henry A.; White House operator; Price, Raymond K., Jr.; Bull, Stephen B.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/789-006

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Well, that was probably a pretty good idea.
[0:03] Well, it's just one start of, well, we've never done it before.
[0:10] It's a nice small room.
[0:12] It was often good to do it in that room.
[0:14] It's a sensational room.
[0:16] And it's, well, it's kind of a, that's what I meant.
[0:20] I meant to fix a little hokey.
[0:21] But when I say hokey, it's a gimmicky.
[0:25] But I said, oh, that's important.
[0:26] Oh, you got some pictures.
[0:30] And that shows you that the size of the demonstration of the Christ section of 6,000 people.
[0:36] Although it got a little bigger than that.
[0:42] But you can see sort of the kinds of people who are gone.
[0:52] They're not real bad.
[0:53] Well, they're bad enough.
[0:57] These, these, these here.
[0:59] These kids are playing dumb.
[1:07] Yeah, yeah, they do.
[1:08] I mean, they do horrible.
[1:09] Look at that sign.
[1:13] Don't change things in the middle of the screw.
[1:19] Go for turkey dick in 72.
[1:26] In other words, there's no question whether it's it.
[1:28] Yeah, yeah.
[1:29] Whether it was an ad- This one, I think, is an excellent one to get around.
[1:33] Sure.
[1:33] Here's another good one.
[1:35] God damn, they have a horrible look on these people, though.
[1:48] Even though they cleaned them up a bit.
[1:49] Look at this, look at this T-shirt.
[1:51] What it says there is, Rich Dick in 72.
[1:59] You can see the reading in reverse on that.
[2:03] That's the one that says don't change it.
[2:05] It's in the middle of the screw.
[2:33] Any questions as to whether they're communists or not?
[2:44] Look at this.
[2:49] Look at that red banner.
[2:52] There's a flag they marched under.
[2:54] It's got a V-suit.
[3:00] I had a feeling myself that some fights are worthwhile and I think having some hard ass willing to rub up those batteries is okay.
[3:13] Have you spoken to Colston about that, about having a team ship take that as an assignment?
[3:23] Yes, we did.
[3:39] I think he is.
[3:40] I think he's an admitted communist.
[4:11] I was starving.
[4:39] I don't know, U.S. News or somebody might be interested.
[4:43] Up, just as a sort of opinion.
[4:44] This is there.
[4:49] That's very, very good.
[4:51] I'm glad we did it, because I never get to do one of those.
[4:55] I never see it.
[4:55] Now we've got some dubstep up, and it's better than this.
[4:58] It's hard to get skills at these times.
[5:02] Sure.
[5:30] I noticed, because the situation is continuing, I suppose, at the present time, Patrick, and this is where they interview McDonnell workers in St. Louis.
[5:44] Yeah.
[5:44] This is a space thing.
[5:45] You didn't get a chance to talk to Tom Jones on the telephone?
[5:52] No.
[5:52] But that...
[5:52] It's obviously a line.
[5:53] This one was not a mansion thing.
[5:56] This was workers...
[5:58] I think what we've got to do there, and we want to wait a while, but we've got to go all out on the legalty business with those people.
[6:10] Because it still shows the concern about the F-15, or whatever the one is, and that we've got to wait.
[6:18] Then we've got a paper on every one of those plans.
[6:21] I would say save the B-1, vote Nixon.
[6:24] Right.
[6:24] Save the F-15.
[6:26] Don't put out 18,000 words.
[6:29] Save the B-1.
[6:30] Save your job.
[6:31] Save the B-1.
[6:33] Save the B-1.
[6:34] Save your job.
[6:35] Vote Nixon.
[6:39] Vote for the B-1.
[6:39] Vote for your job.
[6:40] Don't let the governor close down the B-1 in this plan.
[6:43] You've just put a positive chance.
[6:45] It's not a...
[6:46] And I saw that curious story at the Times or the Post that the lawyer of the committee had said that the
[7:09] The campaign spending was unconstitutional.
[7:13] I mean, depending on the suit, we try to dispose of $10 million.
[7:17] That's the, they're going on the, it sounds very earlier.
[7:22] See, this is the which is not brought against the new campaign spending law, but against the earlier Federal Drug Practices Act.
[7:32] And they were playing a lot of games on trying to avoid bringing that suit to trial.
[7:39] Which is, that's the only legal thing that's still pending.
[7:42] All the other suits are turned off until after the election.
[7:46] Well, we tried to get a say on that one, and I believe one of the laws due here is they've got that in the Supreme Court.
[7:52] So they don't keep appealing.
[7:53] So they don't.
[7:55] It'd be very hard to get it to the court when you decide it before the election.
[7:57] So they don't.
[7:58] That's why they asked for a ruling so they could move to an appeal to sit down.
[8:02] They started out at the appeal, and that's exactly the process they're on.
[8:06] You know, a curious thing was
[8:33] I want you to be sure that if it ever comes up to you, Mitchell and the rest of you, that it has been raised.
[8:40] Two or three people in New York think that Rita Hauser is a superb ambassador to the U.N., but she's not true.
[8:48] Bob, we can't have a Jew as ambassador to the U.N. That's their problem, apart from having a woman.
[8:52] You can't have a woman.
[8:53] But you can't have a Jew.
[8:54] You understand?
[8:55] You can't let us have the word with the Jews.
[8:56] You can't trust Rita Hauser anyway.
[8:59] I just got an idea.
[9:01] I don't know how we got it.
[9:03] But the report filed by, what was it, one of the top editorial guys at the New York Times who had an interview with Rita Hausner, like a background thing, and he filed a thing with the paper.
[9:17] How did he do this?
[9:21] I don't know.
[9:22] But it makes it clear that Rita Hausner ain't putting everybody down.
[9:29] She's on both sides, and she said she felt that Mason must be reelected and was infinitely superior to McGovern.
[9:36] But she was in complete disagreement on his positions on human rights, civil rights, Vietnam, his views towards women.
[9:51] And she went and said he isn't going to win nearly as big as it looks.
[9:54] And she passed that.
[9:59] A lot of stuff like that, yeah.
[10:02] I don't want him to talk too freely to her.
[10:08] On the other hand, she's a double agent.
[10:12] She's on balance.
[10:14] She's still with us.
[10:15] At the point that she's not strong enough to be someone that you could want to elevate to.
[10:22] So, so.
[10:23] You can't do two.
[10:26] I'm not going to...
[10:29] We've got the best.
[10:31] We've got the spine, the test tube, and the garden.
[10:35] That's probably the three best tubes in Washington.
[10:41] And, you know, so we go with that, but we don't have any more.
[10:46] We don't need any more.
[10:48] Are you serious?
[10:52] Sure should.
[10:53] You don't need to do any Jewish employment for the sake of the Jewish employment.
[10:57] You may find some other Jew somewhere that's a pretty hard person to want on his merits.
[11:01] It's pretty hard to bother.
[11:03] They've got to be checked off them carefully.
[11:05] You've got to remember their bent and then their attitudes, you know, and how they act.
[11:10] And they're goddamn hard to get around.
[11:11] I mean, you have very few like Glenn Garner who are honorable.
[11:14] Yeah.
[11:14] Just very few.
[11:18] But what is he going to do?
[11:23] How was the, what you're feeling about the POW and all that's coming up and all that?
[11:26] I read the news somewhere and I couldn't quite tell.
[11:29] Good?
[11:30] You don't think it's too bad?
[11:31] No, I think it's good.
[11:32] It's on, could we, could we, could we have maybe at least Goldwater and Weiss-Dellinger?
[11:38] That is a piece of hardwood, those bastards.
[11:41] And McGovern, see Weiss-Dellinger and McGovern, that's a pretty bad combination.
[11:46] Well, I think we've got to be careful.
[11:49] Right, because it's kind of a delicate balance.
[11:51] And I don't think, well, I was not thinking of the POWs, but Ty Weiss.
[11:56] No, I see.
[11:57] I meant Weiss, Bellinger, Baum, George, Bob.
[12:00] Right.
[12:00] Ty then Bellinger.
[12:01] That's what I was thinking.
[12:03] Not on the POW thing so much.
[12:05] Weiss, Bellinger, Bellinger.
[12:06] The problem is they're doing themselves some harm, not a lot.
[12:18] We've got a strong guy, I think, and this kid, Elias, one of these strong guys, and his wife is sensational.
[12:25] What did she do?
[12:26] I got that one.
[12:27] I thought it was his mother.
[12:29] No, his wife.
[12:30] What did she do?
[12:32] She's the one.
[12:32] She said that's a lot of below.
[12:35] They were recapturing something.
[12:37] This was a re-encouragement.
[12:39] This is part of my life.
[12:43] But Cora Weiss is, she's squeezed, she's a Bella Hapso type, you know, she's all jazzed up and typical, and a World Rocky type.
[12:53] And she looks bad, sounds bad.
[12:56] And the prisoners, all of them, even Charles Black is so far blended damn well.
[13:06] The only real problem is Mrs. Garley, Garley's mother.
[13:10] Well, his father's not so good either, but the mother is the worst.
[13:14] Garley himself, so far, is OK. And Charles is OK. Charles looks like the weakest.
[13:22] Garley looks like a bad visual.
[13:23] And Elias looks like a real pillar of strength.
[13:26] And his wife does.
[13:28] And we're playing it damn well.
[13:30] We've shown enough sympathy.
[13:35] and humanness.
[13:38] Like Elias asked if he could see his wife, he asked if he could spend the night with his wife, and I said, yes, he did.
[13:47] But that, I think he should do.
[13:50] I mean, the family has been locked up for four years now, and he can spend the night with his wife.
[14:00] Fences has sort of bobbled a little bit here and there, but overall, it comes through.
[14:05] I've got a guy up there, James, who's in charge of people's governments, to handle it.
[14:12] James has been handling some of them.
[14:15] He's a hell of a spokesman.
[14:17] It's harder than I heard of Black.
[14:25] I frankly don't know, I don't think it would be a good thing to spend the plus for that.
[14:31] Maybe you're wrong, but I regret the summer she was off.
[14:36] No, I, in watching, I was, you know, there was a possibility.
[14:40] It's very possible.
[14:42] If one of those guys gets out and cuts loose.
[14:45] Unless.
[14:45] Unless one of them takes out the other one, the lives will stay solid.
[14:49] Yeah.
[14:50] And we're getting some of the other wives looking now on that.
[14:55] You don't want to jeopardize the other wives by de-sting exploitation of these people.
[15:04] And to make this clear and well established, this is a propaganda, you know, North Vietnam propaganda.
[15:11] Wives that did that, if North Vietnam were released for freedom humanitarian reasons, why didn't they send them right home instead of running along this tour and taking belts up and all that?
[15:24] They have been treated okay, apparently.
[15:26] And so, you know, you're not making any atrocity or maltreatment stories out, but I don't think that matters.
[15:34] We're not trying to prove that the P.O.D.
[15:36] hasn't been badly treated at this point.
[15:38] I don't think.
[15:39] I think that hurts us.
[15:40] I think they all scare people.
[15:42] You can't get around.
[15:42] No, we want to get around.
[15:43] These are precious options.
[15:44] That's what they are.
[15:46] That's why they're on the screen.
[15:47] A lot of people have them.
[15:54] One of the wives made the point that they haven't released any of the prisoners who were captured before 67, which would lead you to believe that they have not been treated well in the early days.
[16:05] They're afraid to let them out, which would confirm what the archives said.
[16:14] They may have stopped the maltreatment of them.
[16:17] They may have been treated pretty well then.
[16:21] recognizing that they're a part of it because of what they're about to do.
[16:25] They don't gain anything from hurting them, they gain from keeping them in good shape.
[16:44] On your poll thing, one thing that would be important to poll, are you going to poll this weekend?
[16:49] Or, yeah, I can't delay that.
[16:52] I want to poll the trade agreement question, mainly to see, not because we're going to put it out, but mainly to see whether we have enough to sell on it, you see what I mean?
[17:03] Yeah, we'll be in favor of the trade agreement deal.
[17:06] I'm like, well, that doesn't actually make any sense.
[17:08] Because we've got the first question is just do you think this is a good, oh, I see, this deal with the Soviets is good.
[17:14] Maybe next week, if you could agree with me.
[17:16] Yes, sir.
[17:17] Because we won't put out the trade agreement this week.
[17:20] It comes out the following week.
[17:21] That's right.
[17:21] If you could ask Henry, how would he describe the trade agreement?
[17:25] How is it going to be?
[17:27] I had a good talk with him, Bob, about it, which, of course, he just wasn't particular.
[17:33] Uh, Harriet, uh, said that he wanted, uh, I said, well, Harriet, you're gonna have to breathe on salt, too.
[17:38] I said, you really don't understand, so...
[17:40] He said, yeah, I said, I'll just be back in Vietnam, and then it'll all begin to stand.
[17:45] I said, now, Henry, you're not going to do that.
[17:47] I said, last time, you killed your Russian story by your Vietnam story.
[17:52] He says, yes, I must have been.
[17:54] You were right.
[17:55] He said, I injured two Russians in Vietnam, and that was the lead.
[17:59] And he says, I gave a man a briefing on Russia, and it didn't get deployed.
[18:02] So he knows.
[18:04] So I said, this time, we will come back, give him a briefing on Vietnam.
[18:08] And then one on the Russian, but never mix the two.
[18:11] If you do a breathing, you are to go one subject, and one subject only, and don't go beyond.
[18:16] Do you understand what I'm saying?
[18:19] Yeah, Ron can enforce that, and Henry will cooperate with him.
[18:22] Because Ron can just say, gentlemen, that's not what the driver is.
[18:26] Ron has got to enforce it, for Henry's own good, because Henry will move over, and every politician who's inexperienced does that all the time.
[18:36] He's out making a hell of a speech, and he'll make some asshole answer to a question, or some girl reporter or something, and that'll leave, and knock out his beautiful story.
[18:45] But Henry doesn't understand this.
[18:47] But he did, he got the fight here, because he thought he really slayed it with his Russian breathing, and he had it.
[18:54] Does it make a difference to what's news compared to the other?
[18:57] Do you make the same story?
[18:59] Sure.
[19:02] Absolutely.
[19:05] You know, I really am a little disappointed that Bill Rogers, I must say, after what they have done, frankly, to me, excuse me, it's been a cruel goddamn thing.
[19:18] What they've done to Mitchell, what they've done to the White House, they're on an all-out crusade.
[19:29] And I want those papers the country's paying any attention to.
[19:32] But I mean, now this Watergate thing, they won't let it die down.
[19:37] I want the calls made to the community.
[19:40] I don't know what you can do about the cabinet, but don't you think we should be fighting a lot about it?
[19:45] Yeah, I don't think the cabinet should attend it.
[19:47] I've already heard what we're going to do.
[19:48] Yeah.
[19:49] How are you going to handle it?
[19:50] So it isn't quite maybe, maybe we, others.
[19:52] I think that's kind of fun.
[19:54] For our guests, we just, just don't respond.
[19:56] Just say, just want you to know that this is how the president or the president does not have anybody from White House staff.
[20:02] Secretary Rogers used to represent the people in finance.
[20:04] No, he did not, but we, we, he does not, we believe it might be misinterpreted if members of the cabinet attend this.
[20:13] On the group meeting, Mr. President, I just want to make sure I'm going to get some talking points to you this afternoon.
[20:38] And it's very important
[20:40] It's a very subject-separated.
[20:45] Roger knows nothing about the various Vietnam peace plans.
[20:50] He knows nothing about this nuclear treaty.
[20:52] The Soviets are pushing it on.
[20:58] They are pushing.
[20:58] So that should not be erased while Roger is pressed.
[21:03] Kramiko would like to see you for half an hour, I think.
[21:06] I'll write out what you might consider saying about the nuclear treaty.
[21:10] And it would be very important to give them some blood-curdling talk about Vietnam to say we're going to make our last proposition next weekend.
[21:18] And if not, you will then have a mandate.
[21:22] And rather have them give a blood-curdling account to the Vietnamese state that we would like to end it this month.
[21:30] But if it isn't that, that's a very relaxed moment.
[21:35] Well, I would say you'll have no choice except to bring it to a conclusion militarily.
[21:41] Because all restraints off, they might then get them into a mine.
[21:47] But now...
[22:01] He's expecting to stay overnight at Camp David.
[22:04] I don't know what you can do about not having Roger stay overnight.
[22:07] Well, we can do one of two things.
[22:09] We can either all come back, and I could bring Remiko in for breakfast.
[22:14] Come back here?
[22:16] Yeah, we can stay because of the treaty signing ceremony and the danger of weather.
[22:21] It's better not to.
[22:22] I'm inclined to think we're a little better if we all come back.
[22:25] I mean, if you had to stay and Roger doesn't, you've got a problem.
[22:28] But then I will have breakfast with him.
[22:31] That, I thought, would be the best.
[22:33] And we can put that...
[22:34] It isn't all that big a deal to stay overnight.
[22:37] What I could do, Mr. President... You could bring him a breakfast and I'll drive by.
[22:41] No, no, no.
[22:42] I think it would be nice if you gave him breakfast over there.
[22:44] He'd be very pleased.
[22:46] I mean, give it here to him.
[22:49] But I could... Fine.
[22:53] And what I could do is go up with him at 6 and show him Camp David and
[22:59] If it did happen today, I'd go up ahead and out of that.
[23:01] He'd go up earlier.
[23:02] He'd go up the afternoon.
[23:03] Why'd you go up the afternoon?
[23:05] Well, if Michael Rogers comes, he comes with me then.
[23:08] He doesn't have to.
[23:11] He doesn't have to.
[23:12] I'm coming from the line outside.
[23:14] I don't know.
[23:14] Rogers is going to come to the company.
[23:16] Let's all go separately.
[23:18] I think that's the issue.
[23:19] Send those on notes.
[23:19] Who's going to take care of it?
[23:21] You?
[23:21] I thought I...
[23:25] I could bring him up and destroy him.
[23:27] And we'll tell Rogers that the reason is you want to destroy the place.
[23:31] Then we'll all go back together.
[23:34] And I'll bring Rumi.
[23:35] Bring him up and then let him use the place to dress and all that sort of thing.
[23:41] That's right.
[23:43] Now, I think I didn't mind going up on the helicopter.
[23:47] In fact, it's too much.
[23:48] You see, I should go alone.
[23:50] I think I should go alone and let Bill, or what do you think, Bob?
[23:53] Do you want me to take Bill with me?
[23:54] I decide to take him with me.
[23:56] Do you gain anything by taking him up?
[23:57] Would you gain anything by letting Rodgers take him up?
[24:00] Let him play the game of escorting him and can't date him?
[24:03] Well, then you scrape him up.
[24:06] You've got some names to talk to him about.
[24:09] I think the more presidential, I mean, they've been dealing with us.
[24:14] That's right.
[24:14] That's right.
[24:17] What the hell there is for the Rogers case, I mean, we've played this game a lot.
[24:24] I think Rogers just goes up with, hey, you have a group going up for dinner.
[24:28] Oh, yeah.
[24:29] So Rogers would go up with the group that's going up for dinner.
[24:32] Perfect.
[24:32] He would set up a helicopter to take the group up.
[24:36] Rogers would lead that group.
[24:37] The rest would go up separately.
[24:39] I'd go up a little later.
[24:41] Or I'd go up earlier.
[24:42] You'd go up earlier.
[24:43] You'd go up earlier.
[24:45] I'd go up earlier to be there to welcome the guests.
[24:47] You'd come up separately with Gromyko and Rogers and his group, the administration group.
[24:55] But you'd go up with the Russian group.
[24:57] It's an escort event.
[24:58] How's that sound to you?
[25:01] Fair enough.
[25:03] I'll bring Grumiko in here for breakfast on Tuesday morning.
[25:08] No, rather than breakfast, it might be, rather than breakfast, do you think you'd rather have a private, well, you think we have a private talk, but should we go over there or something?
[25:18] Well, it doesn't have to be breakfast.
[25:20] I'm just thinking of these guys.
[25:22] Yeah, all right.
[25:23] Other than breakfast, breakfast is fine with me.
[25:25] I just, I like it.
[25:26] And then you can talk there about the nuclear defense.
[25:29] That's what you can give him.
[25:31] It really floods your mind.
[25:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[25:34] Breakfast is 5, 8 o'clock in the morning for breakfast.
[25:37] And have him over, and I have a couple of points I want to make.
[25:41] That would just be the three of you?
[25:43] Yeah.
[25:44] The brain, right?
[25:45] The brain, right.
[25:46] Yes, sir.
[25:46] Henry and I, the other fellow.
[25:50] What I would do is invite him.
[25:52] If you'd rather not have breakfast we can avoid it, but I'm just thinking of the psychology of already doing a lot by having him up at Camp David for dinner.
[26:14] Reed, I wish Mike would be better off to see him right here in the office, you know, invite him over and have coffee and so forth, and you have him for breakfast.
[26:23] Okay.
[26:24] That's fine.
[26:24] I think that guesses a little bit.
[26:26] Could you do it in the math room so people then don't see?
[26:35] That's where we always meet.
[26:36] All right, we'll meet in the math room.
[26:39] That's excellent.
[26:39] Then it's the treaty signing.
[26:41] Well, then let's meet at 830.
[26:43] 830, because I think we ought to get him out again and let him come back to the treaty.
[26:47] Well, then let's meet in the math room.
[26:50] I'll tell you what you do.
[26:51] You meet in the math room.
[26:54] Have breakfast served there for you.
[26:56] No, let him eat breakfast.
[26:58] Let him eat breakfast at the end.
[27:00] 8.30 is plenty of time.
[27:01] That gives us an hour to discuss.
[27:02] 45 minutes is all you need.
[27:04] Yeah, fine.
[27:05] And then from there, then I'll meet in the bathroom at 8.30.
[27:08] Fine, good.
[27:09] I think that's it.
[27:10] Then he goes away and comes back, arrives again.
[27:13] He has to leave, go away with it.
[27:16] So if people are re-arriving, does that damage the cell?
[27:19] Well, not at 9.15.
[27:19] Okay, because 8.30 is a lot earlier than that.
[27:27] I don't think you, Mr. President, you don't want him to pin you to anything specific, so it's good to have...
[27:32] It's good to have... We'll get him out shortly after 9.