Nixon, Newhouse & Klein on Newspaper ownership and Antitrust

Newhouse1960. You asked me to come up and talk to your party. Right.
NixonAnd you continued to grow.
NewhouseYes, we have.
NixonI noticed Herb sent me a list of your papers. I, of course, I know all of the major ones, like the
NewhouseWell, we get up to the Mississippi papers in there. We have 22 papers now.
KleinI know that Mississippi paper, at the Pascagoula papers, [unintelligible]
NewhouseWhen I when we bought Mobile, we didn't know that the that they owned the Pascagoula papers. [unintelligible] the largest paper in Mississippi, except for Jackson.
NixonAnd also you've got that whole region covered because then you get New Orleans, which of course, those are powerful papers and Mississippi, Alabama,
KleinNew Jersey.
NewhouseOh, New Jersey, New York. Well, and and what other states? Oregon, Portland, Oregon, St. Louis, Missouri.
NixonRight. Springfield, Massachusetts. Did you have Springfield? Well, it's been in the news lately. Is it a fair What's the name of that
NixonOh, I was there. Herb, it's Parks, actually, years ago. I've I stayed in one of the public parks there. You like some coffee or tea or iced tea? Herb, how about a little something? All right, we got it. A little
NewhouseNothing, thank you.
NixonWe uh what uh what what has happened in Newark with the Newark Star?
KleinThe News is folded. Star-Ledger is the remaining paper.
NixonI didn't realize until now that they folded that paper. I thought that it was a prosperous paper. It once was. When I bought the Newark Star-Ledger, it was highly prosperous. Yeah. And between before they got through with it, the unions had sold them and now I'm buying the building and all of this for all of their printing facilities.
NixonI remember there was a time that the endorsement by the Newark News was almost a single, the only endorsement that counted in that state. That counted in the state. And your, now, the Plain Dealer, that's going well, Herb? That is your paper.
NewhouseSo much so that we only bought half, when we bought that paper, we bought 50%
NixonTom Vail. Oh, I see. Oh, yeah.
NewhouseWell, we were the second paper. And for the You know, for years, Tom Vail was working, and all they were interested in is how much they could take out of the pocket. Well, we haven't paid dividends, and I owned it now for about 7 or 8 years, and we said to Tom, "You go in there and operate the way you should." That had drawn a paper that spent millions, probably put in 8 to 10 million dollars in improved machinery.
NewhouseAnd, of course, he's passed the the Press. We have 40,000 more circulation than the Press, and they're doing very, very well. The best is that's which harnesses their that's
NixonWell, how about How about the Plain Dealer? Do you mean it is not making money? Oh, yes, Plain Dealer is making money now. Oh, it wasn't before? Yeah.
NewhouseWhatever they did make, they took out.
NixonYou plow it back in. We're plowing back in. That's which we've done with all our What about, uh, why don't you get something in California?
NewhouseI'm I need to get some paper. [laughter] I'm 75. 22 times a year, it's
NixonAnother paper that I wish you could get, the Chronicle. The Chronicle's not well run and the Chronicle has been particularly I should know, Fletcher [unintelligible] A lot of good friends down there, but it's one of those family-run papers, you know that. You know it. It's just it's just a It's deteriorated, that's what it has. Well, it's deteriorated, that's right.
NixonThe Examiner, that's better, I'd rather It runs a better paper than the Chronicle.
KleinChronicle became more conservative than The funny thing is now the Examiner's become more conservative than it is.
NixonIs that right? Well, the Chronicle would the Chronicle sell, you know?
NewhouseNo, I tried to buy it for years when Dennis McElrath was married to one of the younger daughters. Charley Thieriot. Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the daughters, and he tried to get it for me and I met with Dennis a very well-meaning They're making so much money on television.
NixonThat was the agreed But once you buy the paper they could keep the [laughter] Well, they won't sell either. The San Diego is great.
KleinSan Jose is doing well, that's that's Ridder. Ridder's good.
KleinIn Sacramento they're dropping back a little bit now, the Sacramento Union's picked up some just, you know, a small part after the top, though, so [unintelligible]
NewhouseHe's got a a long row to hoe, Copley. But he's an excellent operator, and if anybody can do it, he's going to do it.
NixonI think you Herb and I have talked about you, are a really major country's sole ownership or practically sole. What?
NewhouseI kind of thought of him. I thought we were the only one so You're sole? Almost. I own all the stock. You do? All the stock.
NixonAnd so Copley does, too.
KleinYeah. That stock's not sold. No. It's held by him. Well, he's he's doing better in his moves recently.
NewhouseMy wife gave me so much so that I I decided not to show it to you. But It's four months ago, four months ago, that was a cartoon, no? Four months ago.
KleinThere were present in the room five Vogue magazine editor-in-chiefs.
NixonVogue, too? Well, I have
KleinAll women ought to read that.
NixonHey, I didn't know you had that, not that you You own the magazine, uh Vogue?
NewhouseI own Vogue and uh House & Garden. Well, that's Condé Nast. Yeah. I bought it. He had Russell Sachs as publisher of Glamour. So, this is four months ago.
KleinVery attractive.
NewhouseNow, my wife gave it to me this morning with a letter, she says, "I want you to give it to Mrs. Nixon." This is hers, not This is not this is a It's a cope of hers now, can't it? Oh, all right. She says, "Make sure so that you letter, I want to keep it in my file." She'll get it. She'll get it.
NixonThis is your wife? My wife. They're a nice I'll take this over to the house. She's up in New York. No, in Chicago today, isn't he? Columbus Day, uh.
NewhouseColumbus Day.
NixonThat's why he's Curt. [snort]
NewhouseI, uh with all of my acquisitions, and we'd go back 40 years, before we did, before we pay, our lawyer went to the Justice Department and gave them all the facts,
Newhouseand when we get through, they said, "Well, we'll investigate it and let you know." They investigated, and we got word back that unless we get a serious complaint, you could go ahead. There never has been any complaint, there isn't one now.
NewhouseExcept we just I I am one of the few, I don't know of any other group newspaper owners, that is not on a stock exchange.
NewhouseI know all the stock whereas all the group papers are on the stock exchange, they have a lot of stockholders, and what results to state
Newhouseis some day, some eager beaver bureaucrat will decide that he doesn't approve of of group ownership, multiple ownership and it will say, "Well, they own 2% of the newspapers in America. It should be broken up." And I'm I'm afraid that at that time, and
NixonYou mean that they that they they they would say then, see if I get it right, they would say that it's all right for the Los Angeles Times, because it's on the big board, they have 100,000, but not for you. Yeah, well, it'd be it'd be easier to tackle Hearst. Oh, Hearst, yes, but
NixonBut you're not on the exchange.
NewhouseNo, I'm not on the exchange. That's true. That's true.
NewhouseIt would happen because I'm not on exchange and don't have many stockholders, it'll be easier to tackle me, you'll get less flak, see what you mean. And I I want to hope that I could talk to somebody
Newhouseto say, "Well, if this after you look this over, it has no merit." And I I'd like to, instead of being the guinea pig in something that trying to do, that I would like to have a friend who might present our case quite
NixonLet me try it. All right.
KleinLet me ask this. The, the,
NixonThe, the the dissidents at all when you speak of making the meeting somebody in Mr. Sterling the background?
BullI know, sir, and I believe until changed in the guest, until later, uh
NixonDean? John Dean, [unintelligible].
BullI think with a longer haircut he could be here with either of them.
NixonSir.
NixonHe's the Counsel to the White House. His hair is a little long, but he's still smart.
KleinIt shows that we have both sides.
NixonAll my [unintelligible] I know. Well, that's the kids, you see. Well, that's it. Well, that's, I always say that's, don't care about the, it isn't the length of the hair, it's what they've got in the head that counts.
NixonI want to say that, uh the situation, uh is, of course, that the that your your, what you were what you could attack
Nixonis in the field of the uh, television newspaper thing, I think, where you've got this public interest, which you know, really ought to alliance to tear it to pieces.
NixonI advocated, Herb was there that day, and these were basically television owners. Some of them were
KleinSome joint.
Nixonsome of them were joint. Some of them were in television. I did that purposely out there.
NixonWe talked about that and Herb, you remember, with all these Well, they could see that I, I call it the whole strikes. Well, they're they're probably not formed at all, you know. They go for 100 where a bunch of clowns get in and say, "Well, we represent the public and so we're going to throw this fellow off."
NixonThey did this to to WPIX and they did it in Boston,
KleinDaily News station.
Nixontook it in charge, and I don't know whether they succeeded or not. They had a hell of a fight. Well, they shouldn't. That's a good station, in my
NewhouseAlso high newspaper.
KleinWe are putting We are putting the accent in that group, Herb, right? And Chicago's doing that.
NixonWell, Chicago, the same thing.
NixonWell, the point that I make is that whatever really gets down to
Nixonis not media. What it really gets down to is an attack on what I would call the business establishment, the an anti-business bias
NixonYeah. That's That's what it is. And in this instance, all that I can say to you is that I, uh, my approach to it is very heavily colored by the fact that and I'm accused of this and I plead guilty, I
NixonI lean toward the the businessman, or businesswoman, you know, the future businessman, who run a property correctly,
Nixonruns it well and makes a profit. And when I see a group of people trying to step in and bother something solely because it is successful, it doesn't do with me at all. As a matter of fact, I'll turn it further. It's full of being the man I trust.
NixonIn the United States, let's fly in the air, that's what's happened to this country anyway. It's the only one I trust.
NixonWe are, we are very seriously jeopardizing America's competitive position in the world by the enforcement of our antitrust laws. Europe has got makes me You can't open up, Europe is all together and hangs up on us. You deal with the Russians, huh! It's the whole country, and here you have our guys
Nixonanyway John Connally when he was Secretary of Treasury became very interested in this subject,
Nixonand we've started some studies within the administration very quietly, it has to be very quietly, because, you do, you don't want to give the impression [unintelligible] go against antitrust, then all the Democrats would get going.
NixonBut, I can assure you that, my own views, I started with any one of these cases when they come to my attention,
Nixonare first to say, "Well, now, let's look at the person who owns it. What kind of a job are they doing? Are they running a decent property? And if they are, they can go forward." Uh-huh. Because, basically, the uh it's it's uh, they've run the paper successfully, alright.
NixonMr. Dean, Mr. Newhouse.
DeanCounsel to the President.
NixonCouncil to you.
NixonJohn, I was discussing with Mr. Newhouse. He was talking a little about the Justice Department over this consultation with you, what could be done. The general philosophy that we have with regard to
Nixonuh, newspapers, television, et cetera, et cetera, and his chain, which you probably, you may or may not be aware, [unintelligible]
Nixonwhich is the sole owner. It's honest. It does, that's sole ownership. He has He has made a number of newspapers. How many states? He's got, oh, among other things, and a few television stations.
NixonAnd, and his question arises, "Now, let's suppose some, uh demagogue or you're pure, so you might call, starts to try to promote
Nixonhere in the Congress. They might endeavor to put pressure here, or in the Justice Department, or through the FCC, or something like that. They started crusade in terms of breaking it up, on the ground that it isn't a healthy thing for
Nixonthat kind of a share to exist." I was pointing out to him that that we approach that quite differently from some, and we begin by looking at the business aspects of it.
NixonAnd if a publisher or an owner runs a good shop, we are not going to allow him to be harassed and torn up by a group from the outside that, that in the name they go in whatever way they say it's in the name of the college or in the name of people's rights or the name of this and that. They'll say, "We want diversity."
NixonSo, they'll want to grab this or grab that to go to the other thing, in order to break it up, where their real reason is they want to do it.
DeanThat's really what it's about.
NixonSee they use the other. That's something about these television things and, from what I've been able to see,
KleinCounter advertising.
NixonOh, they counter advertise. But, I mean, when when a group comes in, they come in and say, "Well, this this particular television station's not serving the public interest because it doesn't give enough time to the programming. It's not tuned enough here, there and the other thing." And they argue about this or that and if they can, they'll be just as silly because after all, it's a business proposition, right, Sam?
NewhouseWell, on on television
NixonIsn't that really what you're concerned about, that that I mean
Newhouseif anybody's going to be challenged, we we have no objection. What we will do and uh and I've told Herb a few weeks ago,
NewhouseBuffalo has come to us and said, "Will you exchange your station in Syracuse for ours in Buffalo?"
NewhouseSo, we will we will accomplish the same thing except we won't be doing as good a job. However, I'm not interested in television if they leave me alone with newspapers.
NixonRight.
NewhouseOr magazines and at some point, uh Arthur Loeb started suit against me in New York [unintelligible] to be the kids [unintelligible] who at that time was his partner.
NewhouseFiled a suit, the McCall Company. Well, they tried to get me to deal with them alone and they'll We have and they drop the suit.
NewhouseSomebody's if they do stuff they may think that that that is something that they can do. If it has merit, I'm not I have no objections. But I like somebody to look at the facts and see whether it has merit.
DeanThe man who is now head of Antitrust Division in Justice, Mr. Kauper, doesn't have the inherent belief that this business is bad.
NixonThat's right.
DeanAnd he looks at it and analyzes it and looks at it in terms of statutes.
NixonWhy don't we, let me suggest this. Uh, he he's uh, he knows my views and he can, well, here at the White House, we're very well aware of this.
NixonAnd if you see one of these situations arising, this young man, probably around the 1st of July,
NixonBut I I must say that I have to admit that we that that what you really have here is on in under any administration the top, you like the president, we point a few people. Underneath there's a bureaucracy. The bureaucracy is they're a bunch of crusaders
Nixonand those people are always trying to make an issue of themselves and so on. It's very hard to control them. We have to do our best to to keep them under control to make sure that they get there. You see, a lot of a lot of the people that come in particularly in the antitrust division and the rest they're basically the people that start with an anti-business bent.
NixonRight?
KleinCorrect.
NixonCorrect. They really they think that to be big is an advantage. They've they've been taught that in school. Now, fortunately, the teachers may turn around a little now. They may learn that the establishment isn't all that bad.
NixonBut the attitude in this place is just the opposite. We have, as we've demonstrated on several occasions, we've this field we've attempted to be fair, but we're not against something that's big because it's big. It isn't it isn't a question of whether it's big business or small business, it's whether it's good business.
NixonThat's something that we've always said, and that's what we believe. And what impresses me about your your operations is that in every in every place you've gone, you've taken papers and you have built them, you've built them up, you've built the circulation, you run a good shop, and
Nixonthat's what really matters.
NewhouseThank you. You make talking about it—
KleinYes, sir.
NewhouseYou find—
NixonWe are not going to be we're not going to be, you can be sure in this administration, that as to well-operated newspapers having to nothing having to do with the editorial policy and all, but if to me, and in this country
Nixonif you ever get to the place where you you start attacking successful business operators who are trying to really tear up a paper. Particularly, there is another reason: the guild and these unions are so tough, but I don't see how it's possible to run a decent paper.
NewhouseThat's how you they put the News out of business. They, and they alone.
NixonBecause you see the way they did it. Take New York, it's a disgrace that New York, the biggest city in the world, now really has two, well, should we say, two and a half newspapers.
NewhouseWell, you may lose the half.
NixonYeah. [Laughs] You're not going to buy that, huh? [Laughter]
NewhouseNo, no, no, no. I wouldn't be associated with that. No, no.
NixonListen, you do that, it's been tough for them, and that's why we're here, for instance, in Portland
NewhouseWe had a five years strike in Portland with the guild. Put them out of put that guild out of business then, and now they leave us alone. Now we don't have no trouble with the guild. We have trouble with some of the other unions.
NewhouseWe have no trouble with our operations. Very, very successful. We give the government a lot of money and my partner right ahead.
NixonWell, the other thing is for instance, you have you know, it's very probable that, on their own, they probably couldn't run it. But they get the top management, it's like a franchise. You take these
NixonIt's very true, but you take these Colonel Sanders' fried [laughter] franchises, and so forth, and so on. People that operate those couldn't possibly make it on their own, but, at the top, they tell them how to cook the chicken and how much it should be sold for, and how many people they can have, and what the margin is, so they all do well.
NewhouseThat's the secret. That's the secret.
KleinMr. Newhouse, long before we discussed this, we were having lunch in New York a few weeks ago, told me that he wanted to just hear and be certain that this paper would be able to support you.
NixonCertainly, love to have them. I'd love to have them, Tommy, and it's nice to do that, understand.
NewhouseNo. Now, about that, 100%.
NixonRight.
NewhouseWe had I had trouble in one of my plants. One I have four newspapers in Alabama, all right, five newspapers in Alabama, two of the five [chuckles] the biggest one will support, the Birmingham, but the other four will not.
NixonWell, they shouldn't. Sparkman's been bad to them, I mean, I have no idea. Sparkman is a decent man.
NewhouseWell, they are very very much in love with Sparkman. [Laughter] And I thought, well, it's not worth the trouble fighting with that, so, but they're still for you. But, nevertheless—
NixonI appreciate that very much, sir.
Newhouse[unintelligible] also hope to be here.
KleinOh, I appreciate that Plain Dealer, and Harrisburg. We did a good job for you.
NewhouseWe did a job for you with Bill Nichols in St. Louis. Oh, my.
KleinWhen we banned the poles.
NixonYeah. All right, good. Well, I'm surprised you're out West.
NewhouseI'm glad to see you in person.
NixonYou see, I'd like to give you a You brought me a, I'll give you a little memento for yourself. Not much, a little gift. They won't cover line what's under that leather is easy.
NewhouseYeah.
KleinOh, you've got a beautiful name for it. It's marvelous.
NixonBring me a couple more.
BullYes, sir.
NewhouseWell, I wish I'm sure you wish, and I wish it, and all of us wish it, but I wish we could round the distance. [Crosstalk] Get four weeks out of the way, and get back to work.
NixonOh, well, they're These are, probably has some of these. These are the new presidential cufflinks. That's the seal,
NewhouseYeah.
Nixonit's completely non-partisan, no name on it. [Laughter]
NixonThat's good to say. Here, that's for the flag, so that's why in color. This is the seal, the seal on the floor, on head for your wife.
NewhouseFine.
NixonI'm doing that, my, and most successful, this could be the publisher's only. [Laughter]
KleinDon't make them don't make them jealous. You don't know the way [unintelligible]. [Laughter]
NixonOh, sure. They're like you others if you tell that they'll be pleased too. And put that
NewhouseRight.
NixonWell, I'll Thank you. I best take off this coat for this, good luck to you, sir.
NewhouseThank you.
NixonI wish you well. If by defeat, by defeat, I'm gonna [laughter] All right.

Nixon, Newhouse & Klein on Newspaper ownership and Antitrust

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Also recorded on October 9, 1972

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Nixon, Newhouse & Klein on Newspaper ownership and Antitrust

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Also recorded on October 9, 1972

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