On October 10, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Ronald L. Ziegler, Charles W. Colson, Stephen B. Bull, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:25 am to 11:53 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 795-001 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
There was no way for John to shift gears.
Mark tried to put a chop.
He did great at the end.
You see what Mike pointed out.
Absolutely.
I made the same note.
We have a totally negative group.
No, they're not completely negative.
They want to be positive.
They want to hear something good.
Yeah, but he was talking about the fact that we're falling off here.
Yeah, we're falling out on this area.
We're falling out.
It makes you look at the crisis that the whole thing's coming upon the scene.
Which is another reason.
I just don't understand it.
Because, hey, you've got someplace where we're, you know, up in New Jersey where we've got a couple of people who talk about drugs in New Jersey, talk about the relationship to what you do talk about.
And I think exactly the same point, because it's
I just, I don't know.
You see, I'm going to have to get a hold of this guy.
We should have had a rah-rah session and take about 30 minutes and hit things.
I had to step in and blast it.
But I've had to quit going through spaceships and all that sort of thing.
I don't see, I don't think that, but I don't want to.
Well, don't forget some of the people that were there, forget it.
Some of the people there, his uncle, you know, Brock was, because he's working on it, but they had a separate session to do that, and I don't want to talk about it.
On the point of getting a positive across, instead of that, we don't need now objective analysis.
We need some fixes.
Tom, what does that mean?
That's all.
It's too late to do anything about our chronic position.
If we're in trouble, then forget it.
Move to something we aren't.
It's not true that we're in trouble.
Yeah, but there's John obviously couldn't.
I mean, he was
Well, he flew all night to get in here to show that.
Oh, he had it prepared by, but he had those rules prepared by that Michigan research office, Peter and that bunch, who don't get the right issues.
I've gotten him to talk about the South in terms of taxes and the rest of it.
You know what the issue is with the South?
And also to say that Connecticut do not talk
I do not talk about that.
That's where I do not talk about it.
For Christ's sake, sure you don't talk about it.
That's the teeter-totter.
But you think for one moment that you don't talk about it in front of the Catholic group.
What the Christ are you talking about?
Have you polled in Connecticut?
Have you polled in Rhode Island?
They haven't.
I haven't polled.
That's the point.
They'll go by...
Well, they're from Michigan, or New York, or something like that.
But look here, what the hell do you think we're getting these Catholics for?
Are we getting it because of what we've done on the environment?
No.
Bob, really not.
John, this is the domestic council.
How did this realize why the Catholics are turning around?
I don't know why they're turning around.
They're turning around because of lifestyle.
They're turning around because of abortion.
They're turning around because of fantasy.
They're turning around because of patriotism.
They're turning around because of us.
That's it.
And nothing else.
God damn it, it just is ridiculous to think there's something else.
It isn't because we need a project in Connecticut that we're doing well in Connecticut.
It isn't because I went out there and put up watergates, or whatever the hell it was, or in New Jersey, and we're doing well in New Jersey.
It has nothing to do with it.
Do they understand?
What's the crisis of trouble with those bolsters?
Not completely.
They're trying to break down.
All right.
All right.
But let's understand the issue.
You don't know.
They are still breaking it down in terms of our old constituency, in terms of the soft-headed white Protestant upper-income, upper-middle-income suburbs.
In other words, the Rumsfeld-Pinch group.
They're not talking in terms of the Colson-Ivan group.
That's the group that we're getting out of here.
and New York, and New Jersey, and Chicago, and Michigan.
And it's the same thing that turns on the South.
It turns on the Midwest.
It's the failure really for them to see these great undercurrents.
Christ, why doesn't he come to the bell?
The bell, you know, he sees it this way.
He doesn't talk about all these other things.
Well, anyway, sorry.
We got to cross to...
You go in and make speeches to people like that on those other issues, man, you're dead.
I've been to these places.
You are totally dead.
Cover it.
You've got to get them a little bit.
Those people want to feel proud of their goddamn country.
That is what, I mean, that's very interesting to me.
I read an interesting summary this morning.
I'm sorry to get the rest all lying around.
Very interesting.
It tells a lot more about them than it does about us.
and they say, isn't it terrible that the country isn't concerned about morality anymore?
They want this, they hate this country and they hate this system.
And they can't stand it that people are beginning to be for the country, for the system.
And you've got to get back up to this goddamn White House staff.
They've got, I don't mean, I don't mean those, you know what I mean, sure.
They've got to understand that's the issue.
And we mustn't sit here and worry about signing those acts of
Those are good people there, and I guess they enjoy hearing that.
We, uh, I don't know if you can, but the fact is, boy, it's a heresy.
It's a heresy.
It was not written.
So it was a positive response.
That's why I'm sure it was good.
Don't you agree?
I'll tell you here how it went.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
It's almost a cold center.
Listen, what do we want the cold world to be like?
We want it to be dark.
We want our people to get up.
We want our people to get up.
We want our people to get up.
Here's a sad part.
It's time.
It has to be sad part.
There's somebody else who's got the two lines.
I have quotes from a White House aide who said that R.A. went by money and the governor named the issue, but it would become the economy R.A. because we're not 28 points ahead, but the governor is 28 points behind.
That's Buchanan.
That's a stupid, stupid lie.
That's Buchanan.
He was absolutely wrong.
He said the old man, Buchanan, is the only one that refers to you as the old man, R.A. That's a Buchanan quote, shouldn't it?
Did the old man pardon him?
I didn't think so.
I didn't.
It isn't.
Well, I think it's small, small.
No, it's stupid.
But it's part of the church.
We've got to talk about some of the positive.
Now, McGregor got into a lot.
He was the only one that did.
But he might have given it to John.
But it's correct when he gets up.
But I think the disaster area that Peter pulls around, I really do, I do think that their views are totally different.
They have not seen these issues, Bob.
They have not seen them.
God damn, I've seen Peter's analysis.
Where have we gotten the idea of going after the heartless?
Where have we gotten the idea of hitting abortion and amnesty?
And, frankly, being number two, where in the Christ have we gotten that?
From Peter?
Hell no.
He doesn't understand that issue.
Because he's a liberal.
Boston, the same.
Peter and Harper and all that bunch.
That's the line.
Right?
Is that what you were saying?
That's Bruce Warren on CBS.
The media's got to pick up a line.
That's why we've got to start recruiting them correctly.
I would say that the line is negative.
Now it's a failure.
It's McGovern's failure.
But it's not so much this week on the lesser of two evils as it is on the, just the fact that McGovern is on the wrong.
There's two things, one that he's going at it wrong, the other that he's got the wrong line to begin with.
And that's the basic news pitch to it, that he hasn't, whatever he's doing, hasn't caught on, he's made no gain.
The other thing I was going to show you, one of the press things will be interesting.
The advance man should generally be in the general vicinity and act as sort of a backup person after he has returned.
The government press, of course, will send him a reply.
You may recall that, and say there's lines in the system, I mean,
Oh, Mrs. Campbell, you know, her mother died.
Mm-hmm.
And her capital letter.
She said, by far, the most vicious was Campbell.
Mm-hmm.
Now, just don't bring it anymore.
What Kerr considerably did not understand, even though Kerr never understood it, is that when you have individuals who feel strong, like I did, I mean, I thought of this,
and contempt for man and for hate.
I'll get that through your head right now and always.
The philosophical rightist likes the recent gestures.
He is basically more general.
Except for the God-man of virtues, they are like the philosophical leftists.
You see my point?
But the Herder catapults and the rest, I mean, don't kiss their ass.
You know what I mean?
He didn't deserve an N letter.
And also, I shouldn't have had to call, so I basically understand.
If he'd come up and taken me on, I would have no objection.
Goddamn, we have no business going on.
And also, our defense should have been around, and that's all.
But maybe it can't be handled.
But this is all a little bit of a rocking and rocking.
We're talking about our press releases in the next edition, but it's very important.
Don't try to imagine that these assholes...
They are not people.
Basically, if they're philosophically against you, remember, there is nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing you can do.
There's no change.
And any generous move like that, only, and it shows weakness, you see.
Yep, it shows weakness.
Do you agree or not?
I think I do.
I know I agree.
I've done it years.
Why do you do that?
You see my point?
Are your advanced people a little bit limited number of appearances we've talked about?
Yeah.
The crowd's name on her was a calculated decision, because there was a real strategic question as to how to play that time.
I wasn't the problem.
Why didn't you walk in the parade?
No, very good.
It may have been good for her not to have gone out moving around people either.
I'm after it's over.
They probably called it the best way they could know.
But getting back to the press thing, you know, the press thing, there's no question that they've got a protector on that kind of stuff.
Sure.
There's got to be someone on top of that.
And, of course, she asked me, and she said they were, all the press was worrying about the press.
And I said, that's not true.
They were talking about the press.
You know, the next one is true.
But I had to submit.
But on the other hand, Capo was a dedicated leftist.
He's against his father.
Out of it though, he should have just hanged on superbly well.
She wasn't complaining.
Exactly right.
She was simply saying, the net loss of praise was the net loss from Doug.
It was a net loss for me in there.
Kathy did a good job for him.
I saw that.
She tried.
I bet you thought it was on that line.
What I'm trying to say is, when she watched Martin Pelvin, she and you both watched her.
I asked her to find out.
She said, there were a thousand young people who were on Washington.
She said they were, she said they reminded her of Chicago.
They were going horrible, vicious, dirty.
They kept them on, and they were obscene.
And I said, all right, you watch and see for yourself.
One of those assholes was on.
And I told you, you can't be.
They agreed to protect you.
Sir?
You didn't see that all, did you?
No, we wasn't.
And I know they were there, because I got the rundown on them.
They were shouting the obscenities.
They were shouting, one, two, three, four, we don't want you fucking along.
We're under a game of stand-by.
And I also think we're going to see just as secure.
That's kind of the way I'm supposed to do it.
Okay.
I just wanted to get a little guidance.
I'll be, we didn't have the leaders briefed after this, so I didn't have to quote you.
Well, no, play about the thing that they think it is anyway, which is the strategy session on the, on the, uh, uh, spending ceiling vote.
Strategy session on two things, the spending ceiling vote, and the other thing, on cloture and on busing.
The president strongly indicated that he favors cloture and busing, but it's up to the Congress that he feels that this, this is the real test we can get to.
I'd like to do this, I've heard this, try to focus on it, but we face out of this practice as we did before, substantially.
Okay, but the other thing, that was covered, and the other thing was strongly covered.
Absolutely.
And you covered that, thank you.
Was there any other discommanded parts?
Or was it just the jury board?
We're covered with busing.
That's right.
And the other one, the spending ceiling was covered.
We covered it on the genetic ceiling.
Both sections were covered.
And the Washington stuff has said, the President's meeting with his cabinet today, and also we got a rundown, a rundown from Mr. Greger and Mr. Ehrman on the domestic issues.
in the various parts of the country.
What are the domestic issues?
For example, busing is a very strong issue in Michigan.
We find that the defense is a very strong issue in California.
They were run down state by state.
If we don't mention candidates,
And the President has to sit them up.
What's the President say?
He has primary remarks where he hasn't decided.
He says it's for a big vote.
He says it's for a big vote.
He says it's for a big vote.
He says it's for a big vote.
A big vote will help us.
A small vote will help our opponents.
That's what the President's message was.
Can we get that across again?
I want a big vote.
A big vote will be helpful to us.
If the boat is big, if the boat is big, we will be very wealthy.
We urge a big vote, and the President said, when you make your speeches, urge everybody to vote.
Let this be a decision by all the American people, which I'm going to say.
Keep on the issues.
Excellent.
And I said, keep the campaign on the issues.
The President said, keep the campaign on the issues.
On the issues only.
Regardless of what the opposition says, keep the campaign on the issues.
That's what I did say.
I thought you might sense that you got into the answer by this Henry.
Is he going to be back Saturday?
No, I don't know that.
All right.
But you're going to need to cover up.
You're covering up.
You say I was understood that he was back at 730 tonight.
I haven't gotten a recent report because he extended to the fourth day.
No, then he won't be back.
Mr. President, I can get this.
No problem.
I have it on my desk.
We're in communication.
His point is that...
Central aspect is to be sure that no public statements are made which would suggest either anxiety or concern for the current rounds.
It is even more important to be silent as to substance.
We are at a crucial point.
How many times have we said that we put the crisis in my city?
And he caught that, that's why he let the breakfast be called.
And he said again, we're just going to keep everybody quiet and everybody safe.
Well, he's the only one that's not quiet.
Well, there's a story.
There's a story down in the New York Times, David, that follows on from Kissinger's story based upon the source, which I think has him rumbled.
What is that?
Oh, just the innocuous kind of source.
Well, I'll leave it when you're done with this, David.
It's not a source, it's not a source.
Hell, this is the kind of stuff everybody's going to speculate, because I mean, if somebody wants to be on the road, what if they get a little tired of this, because by and by we've done it.
We've got Rodgers who's been a good soldier, Laird's been a good soldier, nobody's saying a goddamn word.
What the source story basically says is that they'll be shuttling back and forth to Paris in the coming weeks, probably another trip to Saigon and so forth.
But now where in the hell did that come from right out of the NSC staff?
Because the state doesn't know anything about it.
You don't know anything about it.
It had to come out of the NSC staff, Bob.
It had to.
You understand what I mean?
Who in the hell else would have even known about a Crypto-Psychon?
Who knows?
I'd slap...
I think he's got to realize that he needs a little discipline in his own staff.
So I don't know if I'll be able to handle anything.
Well, I'm just saying I'm going to stay away from that.
You know, I thought that you should know in terms of your...
You know, I had a very different attitude about the character of the press, particularly those that are what I call dedicated left-wing liberals.
Do you remember the Klein and some others?
Herb Capito's mother-in-law died or something like that.
I wrote a letter and I did.
I closed one.
And he lost his job.
I wrote a letter to him.
because they were Christian, they were a government union.
People came up to me at a very young time as a government president.
The most vicious was Campo.
I don't ever come in here again telling me to do anything decent to a dedicated liberal in a personal sense.
But let me tell you the difference.
Our people are wrong.
The people that are conservative and so forth.
You see, we judge these left-wingers by our own standards.
We are appealed to by decencies.
We wouldn't want to be
but the dedicated left-wing liberals will do anything, including the vicious attack on a family name.
And don't you ever make a recommendation on certainty again.
Is that clear?
Yes, sir.
Because if not, and don't you ever try to brown-nose any of the people
But I just don't want you to waste any of your time.
Kershier, you know how to handle it.
I just want you to know that when you get one of these lefties, they don't play around.
They're pleasant.
They're more intelligent than the right-wingers and the rest, like that poor Vandiver or whatever his name is.
But let me tell you something.
Left-wing liberals hate us.
They hate us because of what we stand for.
It has nothing to do
All they do, it's like the communists, they have contempt for you.
You must show no softness.
You must show nothing personal.
Never, never, never.
That's my advice to everybody on handling crimes.
And I'm not going to forget this either.
What is it?
Well, I'll find out what Kepler did.
You're not going to find out.
You're not even going to check on him.
I don't want to give him that much attention.
He's through.
And I say, he takes me on.
That's one thing he's not going to take on.
He's vicious.
I'm not going to talk about that.
I'm going to forget about that.
But I guess I'm going to.
Call his mother-in-law.
And I didn't drive him for personal reasons.
I mean, we did it only as a matter of pure decency.
But I know that we suggested to him that, well, her, you know, at least she tries to be better.
Screw her.
If they're against us, I don't mean that you treat them badly.
I just mean, don't do nice, personal things for people that ideologically hate your guts.
Don't do it.
Part of the way, part of the way we have to live with them.
But you have them extremely well.
And you'll get a lot of this.
I mean, sapphires are one of the worst crushes.
Brown roses are bastards all the time.
brave crisis, we're all together wrong, we're gonna have Scott arrest the man.
Arrest him.
But you see, they don't understand.
They don't understand.
It's the ideological thing.
You read Six Crises, what I said about the crisis, Six Crises.
There it all is.
It's not because they dislike the person.
It has nothing to do with personal relationships.
The client in 1960 kissed their ass, getting them women, booze, everything.
Far better than did the Kennedys.
And they said, good old Herbie's a good guy, and he laughed behind his back and had a stroke.
All right, well, let's do that.
You've done it.
You've handled it exactly right, Mr. King.
Don't ever, don't ever let me get in the position of, you know, making a nice personal gesture for one who's an ideological enemy.
He's an ideological enemy.
He's an ideological enemy.
We have an arm's length, decent relationship, like I have with Lissagor.
That's fine.
He's an enemy.
But if Lissagor's wife doesn't give a shit, I'll write him a letter.
If his wife is an enemy.
See?
Yes, sir?
Now, on the other hand, if something happens to Timothy's child, God damn it, he gets a letter.
Why?
Because he's not ideologically against it.
The French coroners, same.
They just got to be nice.
But if they hate you, hate your views, and the left is having a hell of a time deciding.
Deciding is another one.
Don't ever brown-nose us on the bench.
Ever, ever, ever.
No nice gestures.
None.
Because they misinterpret me.
They misinterpret me.
Like I tried to tell Henry, you know, that the communists misinterpret you whenever you try to, you know, be a little bit nicer.
Only you're nice to them at a chance, and they're groaning.
Okay.
Okay.
What else?
The only other thing I have is the water gate.
The water gate.
I'm going to hold the same posture.
I don't know.
That's a big story.
The post is going to post, sir.
Yeah.
Huge story.
But it seems to be a different angle.
It is.
They've got tons of stuff that they're... Well, I've got this on the FBI job.
That didn't come out of the FBI.
But they're the only people who have.
And they were that kind of thing.
My point is that I can simply say that the committee in the real life wants you to...
I think so.
They'll try.
They'll say, well, Ron, it was a discussion this morning.
No.
No.
Which is true.
Thank God.
The second, I'll say, well, why can't you deny it?
There's a White House gentleman.
There's just nothing more to say.
I'll do that for an hour.
I'll just cut it off.
I want to do that.
What do you prefer?
Just that is what I prefer, but I wanted to check.
I prefer that.
I just say right there.
Before we, you know, before I do.
No, I have to say this.
We expect a lot more.
No.
Oh, well, that gets quite awesome for me.
No comment.
Let my great-grandfather say that.
You're right.
You're right, Ron.
We've done it right in the hand.
It's going to be tough.
They'll bitch around.
But this little problem.
Well, it's stuck in that room, but it... Once you get out of that room, Ronnie, it's so insignificant.
You get it across, though, that you're just right.
You just kept going.
I was talking about it.
They hate it.
But my few side and the rest talk about it's not horrible.
The country is not concerned about morality.
The reason is they hate the country.
And they can't understand why other people don't hate the country, and the system, and its immorality.
It's much deeper than this administration.
It has nothing to do with .
You know that.
Yeah.
I think there's no reason.
There's nothing in there that calls for a response.
Sure.
You're not going to comment on it.
I'm not going to comment on any of these activities by the campaign committee.
We're not going to comment on it in this office.
Then if they ask you about Clawson, I'll say he's already commented.
That's right.
He's commented, right.
What kind of letter did Clawson write?
I believe the story of something like that apparently isn't true.
A new story?
It's a letter that Loeb used.
to turn Muskie into a crier.
The letter?
Well, that was written in some of the canoes.
See, it started out with the fact that someone wrote a letter complaining that Muskie had called the people canoes.
Well, canoes is not a problem.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
The one thing I, when I came in tonight, I had in mind that I'm not actually referring to your comments about the corruption.
Corruption.
But I don't know.
That opens it up.
No, no, no, no.
I did.
I was going to say those words about the cabinet officers.
I understand.
I would say a word.
No, sir.
That was me in the position of being defensive on corruption.
Just don't say a word.
And it comes out of me, just as the president expressed it.
Confidence in this man.
He thanked the cabinet for working so hard to express confidence.
How do you say the lead's going to come out?
Yeah, you can say it.
If the president says, if I have a problem, you can say, President, thank you, Kevin, for the work you're doing.
If it comes out of the hill, I mean, and says, this is corrupt, these are personally honest men doing a good job.
Okay, good.
He just said express confidence in his team.
Okay.
You'll get some heat in there.
Tell me this, the thing that I'm excited about, this couldn't have come out of the FBI, this in my view, this is about the inner workings of the
Codes and office and all that sort of thing.
Letters and papers and so forth.
Do you mean that somebody...
I think they did interrogation, as I understand it.
They did pick up some of that.
And then obviously, one of these guys that...
I haven't read the story completely, but I just... One of the guys, they tried to recruit to do this.
I don't know.
I don't know who he is.
But he was the one, according to the story, that was out trying to recruit people to do this kind of stuff.
And then one of the people... What I'm concerned about is really the postal office.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Because I don't know what location I'm in in Chicago.
I don't know what my price games are up to.
You know what I mean?
You always know that there are letters and all that kind of crap.
I've got to know.
I don't think he's the main thing.
It's whether or not he's got police in his goddamn office, Bob.
Well, see, there's two stories there.
One is this, the bulk of it is this guy that was trying to recruit people to go out and screw up rallies, apparently, and that kind of stuff.
The other is that Cawson wrote the pendant letter, and that they picked up.
Cawson did this service that I run, because he
I talked to Marilyn Berger yesterday, and she told me what it was.
And Marilyn Berger is quoted as having been told by Blossom that he wrote the letter, the kind of letter.
And he may have.
I don't know.
That wouldn't be surprising.
Well, maybe a better protection, a better policy.
With regard to Henry,
Did we get the report that I asked for?
Well, to an extent.
What he says is, meetings thus far have been tense and volatile.
I had pressed forward with the Sundays and today's meetings, this was last night, to obtain concessions on the military issues, while the other side has persisted in trying to obtain concessions on the political one.
During Sunday's meeting, which lasted over six hours, some guilt was manifested, which suggested ending anxiety to get a settlement as soon as possible, but at the same time to achieve maximum pressure on GBN in the political area.
During today's meeting, which lasted only two hours, I took a strong position insisting that no further progress could be made in the political area until we had absolute security and military guarantees.
This resulted in anxiety and concern on the other side, and firm promise to deal positively with security issues at tomorrow's session.
At this juncture, I believe we have a chance to obtain significant progress by maintaining firm position and anticipate progress at tomorrow's session.
The essential aspect of the issue is to be sure now that no public statements are made which would suggest greater anxiety.
Very crucial point.
We will have firm prognostication at the end of tomorrow's session.
I will return tomorrow evening unless major progress is probable as a result of further expansion of our talks.
Right.
Then he sent another message.
Well, then he called me and he said that he had just found out there was a communication breakdown, that a cable was on the way that we apparently had gotten past this.
He said, I just want you to understand, Mike, this is not a secure line, that this is very complex, but we know what we're doing, and I can't cover it all.
And the key is for you to try to keep everybody quiet there and keep steady.
And he says, we'll be meeting in a half an hour.
And if we are at an appropriate point, I will leave tonight late, returning there about 2 or 3 in the morning.
Otherwise, I will stay over tonight.
I can't tell you a lot more than that, but I... Then another message came in this morning, just now, that said the negotiations during this round have been so complex and sensitive that we have been unable to report their content in detail due to the danger of compromise.
We know exactly what we are doing, and just as we have not let you down in the past, we will not do so now, Robert.
pending our return, and my direct report to you, it is imperative that nothing be said in regard to the governor, or in the other context, regarding the current talks.
So, Bob, looks like there's nobody intense to say about that.
I know.
About it?
I know.
I know.
He raises these as bogeymen.
Sure.
Or am I being unfair?
No, he is.
But I think he's very right.
I've seen speculation all across and stuff like that.
Let me tell you, nothing's happening.
I'll tell you why.
He says significant progress.
Well, it's no progress.
The other most important thing is we're trying to get it.
We've made some progress on the military issue.
But he doesn't say there's any progress on the political issue.
Look, I told Henry a thousand times you can settle all the goddamn military issues in the world.
And if they are not going to give up the political issue, we can, and some of them, because that means nothing to him.
But he binds himself to this, and he farts around with those nine points.
He says, nine of the ten points.
How many times has he said it?
And it was seven.
Well, we've got it virtually settled.
It doesn't make any difference.
It doesn't make any difference.
Those points should come second.
Well, but having said that, it's all right.
So if I don't like to build up the suspense, that's a problem.
Oh, no.
I wouldn't worry about building up the suspense.
Well, except we've been shooting in Canada all along.
We're going to show that we're trying.
And you can't, to a rational person, you can't make any case that we're doing this as a political grandstand.
Because why the hell is an argument being said in there?
That's right.
And there's two people sitting at that table, not just us.
Do you think maybe God, if you watch him,
I'm not going to do it anymore.
I cannot, really, it is not right for me to have to tell top members of the White House staff what the tone is.
I think you'd better get at it.
I just find you a little horrifying.
I mean, by the fact, not because it affected me, I want to hear those things.
But knowing that those assholes there will never be able to sort it out, they'll all go, you know, they'll go with the idea of Jesus Christ.
We're dropping back on the farm and shooting them down, the grain and shooting them down.
I'm just saying, all right?
All of them.
find that format and make sure you read it.
Exactly.
You're the one that wanted me to make sure that we're aware of the problems we have to deal with, the fact that we're slipping on the issue of crime, we're slipping on gold, we're slipping on this and that.
I sat there, and as you ring it, it gets a jet with it, and I always go check with my coach.
Okay.
I agree.
Exactly.
I should have said it critically.
That's absolutely right.
It's essential that Park put a positive note on this affair before the end, because John's rundown was totally accurate.
John's rundown was totally accurate, but there isn't a damn thing these people can do about such truths, such trends, which is absolutely right.
So there's no point talking about it.
Remember that such a group as this is basically made you to begin with.
It puts fuel on the plane to tell them the administration's lost behind on crime, crisis, Vietnam, etc.,
In other words, just tell them, in an upbeat way, what to emphasize.
The state-by-state thing is going better.
And it was.
That was my answer.
I wrote this at the very start, when I was in the general government.
But that was in the general government.
I wrote this paper today and sent the message to you.
Before, earlier, we had gone through the Northeast and South.
And I hadn't mentioned the social issue.
And I hadn't mentioned welfare.
And also, it's because we've been teetered.
And his domestic counsel is Harper.
That is Peter.
That's Harper.
All right.
Well, my question, the other thing is, also, to say that in Connecticut, lay off the horse.
I couldn't believe it.
Lay off the fantasy.
God almighty, I almost went up the goddamn wall.
You should see the note as best as you can.
They said somebody should talk to Colin Hester, who said the only thing he should talk about is in Connecticut, an audition.
And he's not asking God damn Harper again.
He has read it right all the time.
He's one off.
He does not agree with me on the issue.
But that's basically right.
It's basically right.
It's totally right.
He doesn't.
Harper is any so rigid.
Well, he's as bad as you are, and he's on the wrong side.
Harper is a dedicated liberal.
Let's face it.
He's something.
No, he's a dedicated, no, he's a dedicated, what I call, Rumsfeld, Finch type liberal.
He sees the whole thing out there in the upper middle class, Protestant ethnic, I mean, Protestant white that we've always had.
He doesn't see it where we're getting the votes.
The most significant thing that was said this morning, and I did it because basically it was the Kevin Phillips announcement shortly, where I said, here are your issues.
What are we getting?
We're getting here
Why?
For the same reasons.
It doesn't have any material issues.
It has to do with the fact of patriotism.
They want to believe in America.
It has to do with morality.
It has to do with religious faith.
These are the things these people needed to hear.
I don't think we need to hear that.
We tied together the south and the urban ring, the white ethnic urban ring, which is exactly what it's about.
But the urban ring and the mountains is where we're going to do well.
And that's where it is.
That's right.
The problem I think he's got, I don't know what his background is, but his thinking is that of a sociologist rather than a politician.
He's the most apolitical man I've ever met.
Exactly.
He analyzes all the poll data on the basis of sociological phenomenon rather than on the basis of political effect.
Let me ask this gentleman.
Regarding that story, I suppose my only concern to me was whether or not there's a leak in their office.
I just wondered, because a lot of that crap, you know, it's supposed to be Clawson.
Well, Clawson's explanation of that, Mr. President, is that he jokingly said to Marlon Berger, that was such an effective letter, I wish I could take credit for having written it.
And she misquoted him and said he had written it.
I don't believe there's a leak in the office, because there was nothing...
I don't speak as a consumer.
I am speaking...
of the fact that they said they were doing various things, writing letters and all that sort of thing.
No, I never heard of this guy, Sid Getty.
I don't know who the hell he is.
Oh, hell no.
I've never heard of the guy.
I don't know who they are.
The only thing I've heard of is...
I think Sid Getty was over at the committee.
I don't think we've had anything to do with him here.
I don't know who he is.
When the FBI took my statement, they asked me if I'd ever seen the guy, and I said no, I'd never heard of him.
I don't know who he is.
I don't know where that story...
I don't get one damn about it, except be sure your own people are always, because I don't know what's, but, you know, I mean, of course, of course, if we were out of our minds, unless we have that, it would circulate that things handle with regard to handling hecklers and counter-hecklers.
But for Christ's sakes, don't have some asshole in your office go around.
That's what I'm worried about.
They're all the same.
Advancement, you know, there's
Everybody wants to prove he's a big shot.
Everybody wants to prove he did great, that we're organized all the states, and we're going to mail out 1,800 pieces of literary.
The thing about my office, nothing in that article this morning is anything to do with my office.
The things that I have done that could be explosive in the newspaper have never come out because nobody knows about them.
I don't talk to anybody in the office.
I just wonder who those people are.
Now, all of that is out of some other area that God knows where.
But I think it's that whole counter rallying business, which is, I think it is related to the water heat.
I think it's all about the same thing.
I think that was Liz's operation.
It was, as they tracked down.
See, what they're after is where that money went.
And there was a fund.
They wanted $350,000 or something.
How the hell do they think that the Montgomery people financed
All those buses to come in and demonstrate against us in Los Angeles.
What are they doing about their buses?
I just talked to Bob, too, on television last night.
Not one network carried those 1,000 rats that were with the people.
And we didn't have a camera up there to take a picture of them.
Well, they said they were the worst unsuspecting she ever saw.
I would think we could get local TV.
We can get pictures of them.
And they're circulating the other pictures of all they've done.
Right.
Probably would.
The aircrafts are always ready.
Yes, everything's murdered.
The government murdered himself by saying that he was invited there by the International Jewish Union, which is a totally Jewish union.
And every Italian looks at that and says, the Jews are inviting the government to the Capitol of the Republic of Korea.
Holy smoke.
That was the funniest thing I've ever seen.
That's why I'm saying you were invited to them.
Unbelievable.
Wow, it's now on.
I don't think that any more meetings of captains, leaders, or servants should be held, unless you disagree.
I can call them in and try to charge them up or something.
But I just wonder if it's worth doing anymore.
I think we've done that.
We've always had a problem.
I had them debrief afterwards, and people with leaks and all the rest.
I just think we've done it.
Somewhere along the line, I'd say I left this morning's meeting with kind of a sinking feeling, because everybody sort of slumped down and relaxed.
And I'd like to hear.
give them a boot in the ass somehow.
I spend all my time trying to charge people up.
The ones that need to be charged, some of those guys, H. Allen Smith, you have to charge them.
No, but the cabins, the surrogates in the cabins.
They're all right.
I'm inclined to admit, though, to what you mean.
Well, it's a one-on-one preposition, anyway.
That's why the meetings just don't... That's right.
I got to...
Quindy's giving a hell of a lot of notice each tonight, but it meant just sitting down with Dick and working it out with him and getting into the Redquist stuff.
We've got to stay out of this W4 policy thing for the next couple of days.
It's a little hard because he's going to hit us tough tonight.
We'd like to answer him.
You can answer him on the text.
Larry wants to take him on tomorrow.
I don't know whether that still is a good idea.
Can you just get into the negotiations at all?
I spoke to Mel about it at the end of the meeting.
He said he wants to do it.
He said, I can answer the negotiation question.
Honestly, I don't know what the hell is going on, but I know that this guy is a goddamn hypocrite.
The thing we don't want to do is anything that Bill can negotiate well.
But don't take him on the thing of this line of these undercutting negotiations.
Or that he ought to keep quiet while Henry's in Paris or something like that.
That just isn't the line that helps us now.
OK.
If we stay off of that, if they, if he comes back off and negotiates all together, if that was a jackass plan about, you know, I'm going to stop the bombing in 17 seconds, and then I'll take it to Hanoi to get the prisoners, we'd be sure as hell to attack him on that.
The line that Mel would like to take tomorrow, he could do it terribly.
Well, but what does he have at that next speech, I don't know.
And in the government seat, well, we have a fact sheet.
We know basically what's in it.
We've heard some radio segments of it played today.
We know what he's going to say, but we think we don't.
He's not going to say anything new.
But what Mel would like to say tomorrow is that this is the grossest kind of the fact that you hear such instructions all the time.
saying that Nixon hasn't brought the men home.
Oh, my God, he's brought home five of those.
But also, tell Mel and everything else to say that bombing and the mining machine imposed have been enormously successful.
They have saved American lives.
They have enabled us to continue to withdraw Americans.
They have prevented the communization of South Vietnam.
And they provide the only leverage we have in the American society.
You can also have him take him on, on his, on his demo body.
I mean, he's in, he's in the bloke, Chris B. O. W. Sheen.
On his, he can do that.
That's all good.
On the W. E. Sam, just absolutely nothing.
I think the line that Conley...
I can't, I can't.
The line that Conley Richardson has taken today is a good one, which is that
This is sheer hypocrisy for these people to be preaching this at the end of the war that they got us into, and then going to the puzzles of you getting us out.
And the contradiction of majority.
That's all right.
And incidentally, let me tell you something.
Henry's boys are all well-fitting here.
He doesn't understand.
He doesn't understand the basic problem that these bastards use him.
I mean, and he's never understood, he's never understood the propaganda to this thing, see?
I mean, you just don't sit back here and relate to it, because he's in Paris about completely demolishing November, he's demolishing Rome.
The governor's got to make a story.
It's a rough long side of it, but to your point the other day, you cry wolf once you walk.
You know, you've been to Paris on it.
This is the 19th time.
So what the hell is it?
I mean, so he spent three extra days.
I mean, that's got to be a big story, not a big story.
It's a good story.
How big of it?
It's not going to be until something happens now.
Henry, for Christ's sake, the Korean troops negotiations, we killed them for that.
We got that.
They said, Pat, let's go.
I thought, what's happening?
Americans are still getting killed.
The war is going on.
Eisenhower won the election on that.
Now, they win it all.
They're not going to win it on this, but they're on the wrong side of the issue.
It's a little late.
But did you hear?
If you're Vietnam, then it's a tenuous thing in the sense that you can't leave it without hope.
And you can't just sit there in a bomb shelter and say that the enemy is all a bunch of nice people.
You've got to kick them in the ass for their exploiting the POWs.
They must be kicked in the ass.
I had a practically great enemy back together that made the point that when I made the point to do it, I said that we will not make any decisions based on the election.
I saw it in the yesterday's program.
But you know what I mean.
Now, he's thinking only in terms of, how do you, how do you get, how do you win them?
Those should be the winners.
They do what their victims require, not you are.
Uh, there's a bad company client that's late, so I just had to ask you to tell us what's going on.
You notice when you talk about demagoguing, the McGovern demagoguing prisoner issue, I don't know if you noticed a little item in the news summary today, the FBI report that in his own hometown, they haven't been able to raise any money for
to buy him an automobile, because the people are so pissed off at his mother being anti-war and his not being able to move forward as a market.
Now, that's going to be a hell of a thing.
Gartley's not a bad guy.
Gartley's mother is the bad guy.
Gartley's not a bad guy.
Well, Gartley's all right, but his mother has been pretty bad.
His mother is a beast, Nick.
Well, that's been running around.
What the people say is that it would be wrong to resent Dellinger and Cora White.
I'm also criticizing Gartley's outspoken parents who criticized him for failing to return pilots.
That's his hometown.
We're just the hometown boys since we don't want to be able to raise people.
But that, that, I mean, I, I don't believe, I'm getting... That whole POW thing backfired on him completely.
And that's why this one guy, Elias, who's still taken, they're all taking a pretty scary life.
He's a prisoner.
Even Charles, who has been seen as decent, but more critical.
We've got Goldwater now just talking about Cora Weiss, David Dellinger, McGovern supporters.
And it's always been thought to go back to Ramsey Clark.
We need Ramsey Clark to sell or he's done.
Always put Ramsey Clark in there.
We didn't get last night on the networks what we should have been, because we should have gotten pictures of those crazies.
But what we did get was, except for one that we... We didn't get that negative, but we sure as hell got the positive.
We got the positive.
And we got another negative, which is really better than the crazies.
What's that?
Was the Italian saying, what the hell is he doing?
He rained on our parade.
Well, how did that...
I really feel, in my view...
I have a feeling, Bob, that there's a lot more to this business of the crazies than we think.
Let me tell you something.
I've been killed by association, and you talk about it.
It isn't something you can do, but the point is, that's what the DRLF did.
That's what turns people off.
It's like these barbers that you saw.
It's like these people, the elevator operators, I mean,
You see those terrible people in the number.
I didn't think they were so terrible.
But you said the Democratic Convention looked like a menace picnic compared to this.
This was horrible, vicious, serving, beating common flags, fuck you, and everything.
It was just unbelievable.
Not one word impressed me.
Well, it wasn't a word.
And the New York Times, I think.
I didn't read it.
Well, I haven't read the body of the story, but from the headline I would gather they did.
McGovern Supporters Disrupt Parade was in the Bible.
But bear one mind on those Italians.
They talk, and that will go all through New York.
Jesus, if he didn't...
And the Jews?
And the Jews invited him here?
The International League?
Stolberg invited him to our parade?
That's what's just marvelous.
What did he do there in the parade?
He was invited by the German Union.
The German Union, which is 100% Jewish.
Be sure to get around, Chuck, to all of our people and tell them to be sure in Connecticut and New Jersey not to mention abortion or aid and coaching schools because it would cause a loss to the state.
Be sure to do that.
Okay.
But the reason he, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
I didn't want to say it's a parochial school, but I don't want to do that.
My positions are well known.
I don't want to tell these clowns to go out there and talk about the environment.
The liberalized abortion bill got eight votes in the Connecticut legislature.
Well, I turned to Kerry Ward.
Kerry Ward said, he had a very different view, of course, about it in a different way.
He said, well, gee, he said, that's good advice, John.
He said, well, we can't take the mission.
It's on the ballot.
And I said, what do you think of it, Kerry?
I said, I don't know.
I said, well, let him admit it.
He said, well, he said, and I finally got it.
I said, well, listen, this is your read, your position, that those are tools that basically you've got to be against abortion.
Because those who are for abortion are not going to vote against you because you're against it.
But those who are against abortion are going to vote against you if you're for it.
He said, you're dead right.
That's exactly it.
That's the issue.
And that's what John doesn't understand.
You know, he takes the threat to understand.
They're right, but statistically, sociologically, if you look at it, abortion cuts 50-50.
We know that.
And if you analyze that sociologically, then he's right.
But politically, it's ridiculous.
Because of the 50 that are for abortion, half of those, 25%, are totally committed to the other side.
You're never going to win over them.
And the other half don't care enough to make the difference.
That's right.
But if you take a state... All of these issues have a common thread.
There's a common thread in all of them.
It's permissiveness.
A lot of it is permissiveness.
It's morality.
It's morality.
You take a state, you take Rhode Island, which is over 60% Catholic, which gave Humphrey his biggest percentage margin in 1968, and you are winning it two to one because as Herbie Simone says, every factory you walk through, people are pissed off at the kooks, the pot...
Abortion, amnesty, those are the things.
Did you notice that in John's entire thing, he did not mention marijuana?
He mentioned drugs.
Drugs.
Did you see?
What's the key?
The key is the attack on him.
That he was the legalizing marijuana.
You've got to say it.
You've got to say it.
I kept wanting to get one other word in the meeting.
It's going to show up your place card.
Right after you hit your other thing.
I sent this over to Bob.
I said, Amnesty comes next.
I hope you are going to do it.
Nobody mentioned the word Amnesty.
Not once, right?
Not once.
Not once, Dan.
And there's no issue that it's turning people off as fast as Amnesty.
Yeah.
Well, the reason you get that is that you get this feeling, I know Michael has a very strong view that Amnesty turns off the young and all this nice stuff.
They're right.
They're not going to let them.
The point is that Amnesty keeps what we need to swing this election.
The young, the young is a trenchant.
The young is going to lose it.
By God, in order to keep it, we've got to keep the Catholic strongholds of the Northeast and the Midwest.
Amnesty is a gut issue.
It's a gut issue.
I was right on with Wilker, because it's, I've worked for mine, or I served for mine.
But it comes down to four and a half, maybe four bastards, with less than possible good income, most of whom didn't go to college, who served in Vietnam.
And they say, what in the name of God, I served, I, who could not have served, were granted, two and a half served, two men in there.
They said, I just gave two years of my life in that goddamn war.
What's the matter with these assholes, these hundreds that go in every year, what do they get off?
And don't forget career in World War II, it's a hell of a
Do we?
That's right.
And we don't like red buttons.
Remember when we did a Jack Dempsey?
I forgot.
Jack Dempsey.
The time he fought William Carpentier.
Hell, Dempsey was a Carpentier because he could polish his shoes as much lighter.
He was a nice little fighter.
But most Americans were to the Carpentier because Carpentier, they said, was a hero fighting with the French.
Jack Dempsey had not fought the war.
Now, let me say, as a Quaker, I know a hell of a lot of people that have dodged it, and I know a hell of a lot of my friends in the rich business community that have found ways to get medical reasons and other things for the kids not to be in.
I understand.
I don't criticize them.
But as an issue, you've got to remember, most of the poor, dumb clowns that are in this service, in this one, where it was highly selective,
weren't able to go on to college.
And they see the assholes that avoided or delayed the new draft by going to Harvard and Jail and Cal and Houston Lake and Whittier.
They see those assholes wearing beards and carrying American flags upside down.
And here they gave two and a half years of their life.
I don't blame them for being bad.
That's the point they don't understand.
That's a gut issue.
Well, that's why we had our
The blind veteran out in front of the White House yesterday, he made the local news, but unfortunately the Nets didn't take him.
Who was the blind vet?
Todd.
You know, John Todd.
The blind vet?
The blind vet was out, he was praying out here yesterday, and supported you, and he talked about, he was on Metro Media last night.
God, he was talking about amnesty, and we served, and we are proud to serve, and this guy wants to surrender to the communists, and we're just going to fight him to the death.
The blind, he gave his eyes, and he didn't mention how he feels about those who went off to Canada.
Yeah, yeah, good coverage.
That's the main thing.
Now, Bob, keep the domestic counsel, keep them all working on their little projects, you know, on the Congress and the regimen.
That's fine.
But, Jesus, don't let it get to the politics.
Don't let it get to the politics.
It's too early now.
You know, even the pollsters, Mr. President, don't get this.
He's got tears.
No, I mean, the Poles just don't understand what that means.
A guy like Scammer understands what that means.
Scammer.
Because he goes out and he talks to the people in depth in the precincts.
You asked the question on Poles, is it important to clean up the air?
Of course, there is the best way to clean up the water.
Sure, there's the best way.
But what really turns people... Harris, for example, has a mind spot.
That's because Harris is Jewish, and he's oriented toward the Jewish community.
He sees what is happening in the Catholic community.
But he prefers, that's why Harris was soft on amnesty, you know.
He's soft on marijuana.
So I said, don't raise these things.
He was talking about, well, the war is not bad.
He thought I started that.
Gallup totally soft on the war because of a personal event.
Therefore, he could throw his stuff out.
Suddenly, Harris runs on the economy.
To him, the economic issue is the big thing.
And he toasts all that.
The only man, Bob, the only one.
And Lubell was really great.
Lubell and Sanders.
who have an entirely different polling technique, who go out and talk to these people, really see, well, our guys, Robert and John Stephen, the post-series, and in that post-Catholic series, the fascinating thing is that you come out way behind on all the issues.
that are the standard issues.
The Catholics prefer the Democrats to the Republicans.
They're two to one for next.
Why isn't that?
It sure as hell isn't because of the issues, obviously.
Well, of the standards.
I think it's because of the morality.
I swear.
I relate to them.
There's a lot of personal things.
Sure, there's empathy.
There's an understanding that they feel what you understand them.
And some of us, it's the work ethic.
How do you control the work ethic?
Yeah.
The work ethic wasn't in that first order in the presentation to the domestic council leader, you know.
It started back, you know, only if we got to the mountain state, we'd hear about the welfare and the work ethic.
Only after you mentioned it.
After you mentioned it, it suddenly got into the... John totally agrees on welfare.
Well, he has a problem.
He has bridges to sit there and all the rest of it.
I thought we couldn't let that go by.
We lost the budget of 4537.
They've been hitting the relay.
Where is he?
Why is he there?
I don't know.
Oh, they got his bus.
We had Scott go on yesterday because of Chris Scott's.
Yeah, I've been working on this.