Conversation 797-018

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because it's he flatly says McGovern's defense plan is the most dangerous document ever presented by a candidate for the office of president in this century and you know there's things like that it's damn well done Buchanan did a beautiful job on that basic stuff I'm sure Christian did a good job on the college and all that it is

love speech it cuts mcgovern to ribbons but it does every bit of it on the specific merits and jesus he rings up john kennedy and franklin roosevelt scott jackson hubert humphrey country harry truman and dwight eisenhower and uh

You think so?

Yeah.

You ought to see it now if you want to.

You ought to look at it.

Because it's one, it's, it's a real, this gutter.

I guess, well I, I guess if you do it, if you do it, if you do it, if you do it, if you do it,

And the camera starts down.

It says, look at the men who voted for that.

And the camera starts down.

The first thing you see is Keefar, and then Keo, and then Keefar, and then somebody else, and then Kennedy.

And they wonder about Kennedy.

And I said, there's John Kennedy, a young congressman, age 30, from the United States, from Hawaii.

Texas, a 39-year-old congressman from Texas.

And they cut to the page into the picture of Johnson, young.

And then, oh, Kennedy, and then one of his pictures on it said, John Kennedy, young congressman, 30-year-old congressman, who later became president of the United States.

And Lyndon Johnson, from Texas, who later became president of the United States.

Then it starts down the next column.

There's Nixon.

says, go to your next California, 33-year-old or whatever it was, 34-year-old congressman in California.

And it fades to an old picture of you at that time and says, the way he delivers is just beautiful, the congressman from California.

And then instead of following the rhythm of the other two, he kind of pauses for a minute.

He says, now.

He said, you know, I said, you know, I last night, very hot, and I said, you know, your second thought is that this may not go.

We've got the next two weeks.

You thought we haven't failed yet.

I said, you know, it is.

I said, I'm aware, but I said it fails.

It's a great effort.

I said, you know, we've got all set in that respect.

or even if he was on his authority then when he gets back in the program of second thoughts

Oh, that's good.

Make him think he contributed.

What do we do with the National League of Families?

That's another point I had, and we haven't taken that.

We will not take that.

They want me to go.

They invited you.

Of course, they only want the president or Kissinger.

They think Kissinger has a commitment to this meeting, which you do.

But you've turned it down.

And I really, of course, I don't know how you can do it.

I mean, it's one thing.

One thing.

I can't believe that.

It's not me.

I'm not sure you want me to do it.

one appearance on that might throw the animals off.

Go talk to the priest.

But I think the government's doing something.

The point is, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I just want her to go in.

She can go in the middle of the act.

I just want the parents to find out.

There's no question about that.

Nobody understands.

I can show you.

I'm not sure that would make it, but I think they would.

It wouldn't be bad.

They've expressed no interest in it, specifically the Vice President Rodgers or James, as I hear them.

I'm sure I would have said McCain was a great idea, but they just didn't take it.

Sure, you know,

Is there any other time when you go Monday morning when you go to Paris?

Monday morning.

Monday

I think you just go up and say, you know, just make your usual tone.

Let me think out loud for a minute.

Is there any problem there?

No.

My only problem is that I push to get everything done that I need to get done before the trip.

You know what?

McGovern can't do it Sunday night.

He's scheduled in L.A.

Unless this is a phony schedule.

too late now.

So you could do it Sunday night.

But I can do it.

I can do it.

I talked to the mayor, I didn't talk to the paper.

I believe, I can see, we've got to keep the opposition a little bit on thinking that, you know, here we are still talking.

If Henry can just go and talk about

right over whatever I just don't want to give any I don't want to talk about what you're doing I don't think I have to say we will put our records before you as soon as we can without jeopardizing the negotiations we accept this to your vote of character I say it again I could make a violent attack without mentioning it on people who say this is a political exercise and it's also you could also say

I can attack the North.

These McGovern people have not done a thing right yet.

I mean, if they had had a right, they'd recognize that if I spent four days with them, something must be happening.

Because there are only two explanations.

That the North Vietnamese are collaborating in an election hoax of the U.S.

which they did for four days without saying anything, stalemated negotiations.

All of the negotiations are not stalemated.

That's what we're meeting for.

Look at it from their viewpoint, not responsibly, but politically.

If something is happening and it's successful, they're wiped out.

If something's happening and it's unsuccessful, they're better off to be saying, building the case now that this is a political ploy.

And even if something happens and it's successful, the only thing they can do is say, why did you wait until the election to do it?

I'll wipe them out with three things.

I know, but that's got to be done.

The other thing, too, is that even if it's unsuccessful, we're going to rip the shit out of them and blame them for whatever happened.

Mr. President, I think we have it.

If we keep our head next to it, it's not sickest stuff.

Now, first, I've got to get a few changes made by the noise we can make in addition to what I've done in the yesterday.

I think I'm going to use minor noise trips just to block them.

If they want me there, they've got to take the changes.

they will get stateable.

Then...

Okay, you go ahead and try that.

Can we have some radio action?

Okay.

Now, Laird recommends that we send Abrams to the West Indies.

Right.

He says, Abrams is under our control.

He's first starting to treat them sad.

He's accused of illegal bombing him on the AP.

While Wesley Owe does nothing, it's likely Embitter will piss off Abrams.

And I think that's right.

I think the way I'm going to do it is I'm going to walk in with Bunker and Abrams.

The guys have held it together for four years.

And I'm just going to lay it out there.

But you're going to have Bunker and Abrams come in before you go?

Always.

I'm meeting with Abrams Sunday morning.

You've been talking to him?

Well, he has to.

Tell me about, you said that the F-55, that thing should stay.

I mean, that actually is the best sign about the agreement.

I didn't let him take it back.

I made him work here.

And he, you know, word changes that if I told him, I can't even remember them.

Oh, I remember them.

It was exactly like Shanghai.

I finally told him, I said, Bill, let's concentrate on the ones that are important.

I remember in Shanghai, in Hangzhou, Mark Supreme came up with 687 word changes, which he said would serve the security of the United States, not one of which anyone ever mentioned.

So I said, let's carry down the two or three that we've got to have.

Well, then it turned out that one suggestion he had was a good one.

Mail down the date of the conference, which is going to work out the guarantees.

That's what I did.

I talked it over with him, and he just worked out the mechanics.

I said, if it succeeds, I thought it would be exactly the same.

I said, you've got to have the same way like you've got it.

The draw I just want to hear from Sullivan, the details of Big Green.

Finally, I did.

Except that you didn't.

You didn't let Sullivan come to the foot of the river.

I put out the foot of the river.

Don't look down.

It's not going to wait for that next proposition.

You don't exactly know.

The way I look at it, it's not going to be an action that matters if you cancel it.

You just need to begin it.

You can say it.

Just be sure that you can answer well in terms of what we're trying to do.

All right.

I'll tell them again.

Why?

You mean after this is over?

Oh, no.

Before this is over, it's about what are the motives, why is the pressure.

I talked to Walter Cronkite today, and he said, tell me what impact that's had.

Elections happen here.

Elections have been on the first floor.

I know that's not for you to believe.

I've gone out of 20 times on trips.

President has never encouraged me to do anything except what the right thing is.

And we've mentioned elections.

Then I said, is McGovern closer than the election was?

value.

If he's disturbing us now because he's so far behind, I think they probably wouldn't be bothered.

But if they do take him seriously, it's disturbing.

And I thought I said, well, I want to tell you that the president never once said anything to me except to do what I said.

I think I said that second thing, or to ask you something.

There are only two possibilities.

When I meet for four days with the doctor, we obviously are talking about something.

our people, the North Vietnamese, must think it is leading to something, something.

The only other hypothesis is that the North Vietnamese are sitting for four days in a stalemate in negotiations in order to help re-elect Richard Nixon as President of the United States.

And not even you can believe that.

And he lies.

You know, Henry...

They're fine.

They're afraid you might succeed, you sons of bitches.

They don't care about the killing.

They don't care about the napalm.

You do that.

They won this time.

You lose.

Of course, they fight.

They fight to affect the election.

They know they damn well can.

Well told.

But it might be unkind or unfair.

I'm unconfident.

Fair or not fair.

You built this, of course, McGovern saying you did it for the election.

Oh, and I can give them stories about how these things happened.

from people.

It's purely so.

They're trying to give themselves a reason.

But they are safe.

One is deployed.

Second, I've thought about it.

It isn't enough just to throw people out.

What's also wrong is their whole manner of thinking.

Their whole philosophy of what foreign policy is all about is wrong.

So what they need is if one wants to use them at all, some leadership that gives them

an ideology or a philosophy that's consistent with your views of what the country should be, because otherwise that gut reaction is always wrong.

Even the loyal ones, they just don't get it.

It never happens.

It's one of the big ones.

Well, well, well, you know, I suppose if we can't write a page for everybody that

Well, we can't.

We can't get rid of it.

That's what it's made of.

It's a big thing.

But we're going to have it.

We're not going to have it.

I'm sure it happens.

That's what's going to happen.

Well, so you go.

proposition is being considered as worse than what he's eventually going to be offered.

That's why I've got that played as much as you possibly can.

Well, I've sent a score to the bunker today.

I've told them it's your responsibility to get you into a frame of mind.

When I'm coming, there's no confrontation.

There's only one man who can make us drop you, and that's you.

I said, it's not the other side.

That I said, he will not accept any proposal that overthrows him.

But he has now to come up.

I said, it's very possible that there's a ceasefire coming.

Because I want these guys to go out and fight.

See, he's been a responsible man.

But Hayward over there in June, we told him, control as much territory as you can.

The son of a bitch has three divisions sitting around him, three corps.

And he has them under such lousy leadership.

that they've been getting treated by two-thirds of one North Vietnamese Jewish.

Why?

Rattling around, sorry.

Why does he have multi-leadership?

Because he's afraid that any other guy we call might be heading for Daigang.

There is some, but I wouldn't be surprised if they make an attempt on me.

We have to drive to Daigang, please.

You certainly, at this point, feel relevant, certainly, to what you're saying.

Yeah.

You mean, in our opinion, we'll come back with, I don't know, well, I have a question.

On the political side, the settlement, they owe us an answer on five outstanding issues.

I think they're dying to get me to Hanoi.

They're dying to get it settled before the election.

And I think the person you take, Haig, is not a soft guy.

We believe, Haig and I, that they have made a fundamental decision to have peace with us.

Not such an armistice, but peace.

And I think they've made the same decision China made before they moved towards us.

That's not right.

And that is what we have to play.

Yeah, if that is what it is.

Please.

Now, they say, well, we're going to have some five issues, and now I'm going to send three more as a result of... You already agreed that we would choose you.

Okay.

But that is not what we've got to do.

That's what it's going to be.

But that's what I said.

I think it's going to be under the instructions of the family.

It's going to be a pain in the neck, but it's going to get better.

What could you, how could you react to his position?

He could resign.

He could go public.

because television is playing the program.

Well, Mr. President, there's no question that...

But what we might have to do if he, if he resides, if he resides, now my recommendation would be

My view is this, that we cannot be in a position, we cannot push him so far that he blows it before the election.

That could be dangerous.

I'll have to tell Smartly what the situation is for the Jews and I.

We'll do what I have to do.

The deal that Pegg presented to him,

was not nearly as good as this assault.

No comparison, but it was incomparably worse.

And didn't that deal in particular with his design?

No, but he probably put it into his clematics.

No comparison, but it was worse on security grounds, and it was worse on sensitive grounds.

So the man, the mucker, was a white man when we were taking strong action.

He didn't reassure any Jew.

Now when we need strong action to get a Jew in line, he may not be a white man.

But if the old man believes what he's supposed to believe... Well, no question.

And you've indicated the mucker here.

And we may not have the agreement yet.

And we may not have an agreement yet.

I mean, it won't fail on the issue of legal process, but we just can't get much more.

They might come back on the bloated side, back off some.

No, they might not accept some of the changes I said, but they have never yet fully agreed to the prison thing.

I mean, to some prisoners saying it's ugly, I mean, they're...

He can't release what he does, please.

I'll get back to work on the economic aid program.

I think you're an interesting player.

You go right up to the brink.

But then I drank your life out of it.

I said, all right, I'm going to do this.

I'm just wondering how you're going to play that game hard enough without his figuring out what you will back down.

He said, I won't even get them to throw it, but I'll go again.

I'll tell him that's what it's agreed to.

You are now on your own.

What we will do, we'll consult our own interests.

He has no interest to take us off publicly until we do that.

As long as we don't lower the boom, I say I will now cancel my trip to Illinois.

I want to tell you now.

It's been...

It's in the years that have easily happened, George.

It's in the months.

Come on, what would you do?

He's gonna have to find someplace to go, right?

I'm not going to start in a confrontation situation.

I'm going to give him a close analysis where you and I talked about the domestic situation in America, why this is the best way we have to help.

It's one of the greatest advantages to us that he's so suspicious.

And I understand after all we've done, it is not an election factor.

It's an election liability if it's anything.

But you want to tell him, this basis we can continue to work.

I'm getting layered.

To get together a huge list of equipment we can turn over to him before the ceasefire within 24 hours if he plays ball.

And I'm going to have April sit on my side.

I'm going to have April sit on my side.

Then, if he plays, I'm going to send Sullivan to Bangkok and North Pan.

And, in the end, I'm going to go back to North Pan.

The idea is that I'm Hanoi.

On the one hand, Hanoi will put the fat inside.

On the other hand, it will prepare everything.

I think it's important that I go to an authority because I can explain to their leaders.

I can get... Get some rest.