Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 808 › Conversation 808-005
Nixon, Lee & White House photographer on People's Republic of China
Friday, October 27, 1972 · 11:16 AM–11:41 AM ET · Oval Office · 24 min
AI Summary
President Nixon met with Harold Lee to discuss international relations, specifically emphasizing the strategic importance of engaging with the People's Republic of China to maintain a balance of power against the Soviet Union. The conversation touched upon the future of U.S.-Japan security arrangements, the expected conclusion of the Vietnam War, and the administration's political standing among American voters heading into the 1972 election. Nixon articulated his pragmatic approach to foreign policy, noting the necessity of focusing on mutual interests rather than trust when dealing with global adversaries.
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Transcript (AI-generated)
This transcript is incomplete. The transcription skipped stretches of speech — roughly 1 minute of this recording (about 2% of it) is represented by only a few words. Listen to the audio rather than relying on the text below; a corrected transcript is queued.
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How are you?
How are you?
Nice to see you.
Nice to see you.
How are you, Dad?
Good.
That's it over here.
All right.
All right.
Fine.
Fine.
And how's your family?
Oh, okay.
That's good to know.
That's good to know.
Do you have?
Yes.
Do you have two girls or two girls?
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's terrible.
oh first the leaders of course is very old and he will not live long but he is
uh in terms of ability
Thank you.
Thank you.
They have done a great job, frankly, of putting an enormous country together and getting it to start to produce.
But in terms of what really matters in life, they have destroyed it.
That is the sad part.
That's not what's going to happen.
Chinese without having an enormous influence in the world.
I hope to God that over a period of time, shall we say, I don't know if it will, inevitably, of course, they will have a
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amen.
Amen.
Thank you.
I said, I know the unsure view, but I'm going to tell you why you can't do it.
Why it's not very interesting.
I said, if we get out of Japan, we have to beat our enemies.
And here's Japan.
We have a frustration that we've been defeated.
We're a great people with an enormous drive and economic drive.
What do you think they're going to do?
They're either going to make a deal with the Russians, or they're going to read.
And I said, isn't it better to have us there restraining than to have them alone?
And from then on, they say they've left it entirely alone.
That's why they didn't raise the point.
The Japanese, they didn't tell us.
They said, well, we're not going to get the hell out.
But the U.S. state, they want the U.S. to get the initiative against the Chinese.
Thank you.
I did a lot of reading.
I did a lot of reading.
Oh.
But you've got to remember that 800 million Chinese, both of the people of the world, are going to play a great role in the world 15, 20 years from now.
And it's done well in our interest to be talking with them.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Is this something
Okay.
I can assure you that in one way or another, the war will be over before the end of the year.
Like that.
And then, we'll get on with the big arrow-less fight.
We're going to play the Chinese against the Russians.
I don't just want to know who you'll go to.
I do agree.
Because I don't trust either one of the bastards.
Understand?
I'm not rewriting people.
Let me say what I was told.
Let me say that another thing.
No, because it's the Russian people.
And I can only say this to a friend.
Thank you.
I just wish you and I...
Thank you.
I don't know.
I respect the pressure.
We're going to get along for a while.
We don't trust him, and he doesn't trust me.
And that's the way I started the conversation.
And I told him, I said, you have no reason.
I told him lots of times.
I said, Mr. Chairman, I said, you know my background.
I said, you have no reason to trust me.
And of course, I have no reason to trust you.
Let's not talk about that.
Let's talk about our interests.
Well, that's the way they talk to you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Tell me about, do you still have the house in the Hill?
Yes.
One day, the next term, I hope to come.
I'm going to go to my wife and see if she's there.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I did all that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It's out there in the heartland.
It's the farmers.
It's the labor guys like George King.
It's the Italians.
It's the Catholics.
It's the good fundamentalist Protestants.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
My friend, Harold.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Good luck.
Good luck.
NARA Description
On October 27, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Harold Lee, White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:16 am to 11:41 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 808-005 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 808-5
Date: October 27, 1972
Time: 11:16 am - 11:41 am
Location: Oval Office
The President met with Harold Lee. The White House photographer was present at the
beginning of the meeting.
Greetings
-Family
-Smith College
-Travel Plans
-Tokyo
The People's Republic of China [PRC]
-Mao Tse-tung
-Longevity
-Chiang Kai-shek
-Respect
-Chou En-lai
-Ability as leader
-Reasons for US-PRC rapprochement
-Soviet Union
-Quality of life
-Shanghai
-Singapore
-Taipei
-Hong Kong
-Chinese women
-Dress
-Quality of life
-Productivity
-Future
-Influence in world
-Chou En-lai
-Age, vigor
-Intellectual quality
-Meetings with the President
-World outlook
-West
-Soviet Union
-Divisions
-Europe
-Indians
-Soviet Relations
-East
-Japan
-Military
-Economy
-Reason for turning to US
-Perception of US, Japan
-The President's meetings with Chou En-lai
-US-Japan security agreement
-Results of possible abrogation
-Alternatives left Japan
-Soviet Union
-Rearmament
-US-Japan relations
-Kakuei Tanaka’s trip to the PRC
-Chinese desires
-US as Pacific power
-Soviet Union
-Japan
-India
-The President’s reading
-John K. Fairbank
-Survival
-World role
-US interest
-Dialogue
-Soviet Union
-History of China contacts
-Pakistan
-Chou En-lai
-The President’s previous press conference
-Visit to the PRC
-US relations
-Recent history
-Previous administrations
-Lee’s previous visit with the President
-Vietnam
-Agreement with North Vietnamese
-Acceptance by Nguyen Van Thieu
-Quality
-US support to South Vietnam
-Military replacement
-Economic assistance
-Coalition government
-Need to end war
-History of effort
-Establishment
-J. William Fulbright, Joseph W. Alsop
-Anna C. Chennault [?]
-Possible telephone call
-Health
-Henry A. Kissinger's October 26, 1972 announcement
-End of war
-Prediction
-US foreign policy
-Soviet Union
-Comparison of Soviet Union and PRC people
-Chou En-lai compared with Leonid I. Brezhnev
-Chou En-lai
-The President’s view
-Chiang Kai-shek
-Taiwan, Republic of China
-Realities of existence
-Chinese communists
-Possible agreement with Taiwan
-Economic system
-Productivity
-Hong Kong
-Wheat
-Australia, Canada
-Brezhnev
-The President’s view
-Meeting with the President
-The President’s meetings with Chou En-lai and Mao Tse-tung
-Trust
-Interests
-US bureaucracy
Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:16 am.
The President's schedule
Gifts for Lee
-Family
-Pins
-Cuff links
-Presidential seal
Bull left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.
Lee's family
*****************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 34s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
*****************************************************************
-Smith College
-Wellesley College
-Liberals
Liberals
-Double standard
-Welfare issue
-The President's programs
-Food stamps
The President's schedule
-Lee’s home
-Lee’s wife
-Ohio
-L. Nicholas Ruwe
-West Virginia, Kentucky
-Ruwe
-Lee
Media relations
-New York Times, Washington Post
-Comparison
-Time, Newsweek
-Vietnam
-The President’s trips to the Soviet Union and PRC
The President's decisions
-Bureaucrats
-Kissinger
-The President's May 8, 1972 decision to bomb Hanoi and mine Haiphong harbor
-Kissinger
-US-Soviet summit, May 1972
US public opinion
-Opponents of Vietnam War
-Education
-Businessmen
-Administration supporters
-Heartland of the US
-Farmers
-Labor
-George Meany
-Italian-Americans
-Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants
-Businessmen
-Donald McI. Kendall
-The Establishment
-US
-Compared to France
-World War I
-Compared to Great Britain
-World War II
-1972 election
-Education
-Intellectuals
-Social sciences, natural sciences
Japan
-Future
-Tanaka
-Lee’s visits
-People
-Compared to PRC
-Character
Bull entered and left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.
Photograph
Unknown man
Post-1972 election
-Possible firings
Foreign relations
-Soviet Union
-PRC
-Cities
-Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo
-Chinese
Farewells
-1972 election
Lee left at 11:41 am.Also recorded on October 27, 1972
- 032-072 9:55 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:55 am and 11:05 am.
- 374-016 9:55 AM · 27 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:55 am to 11:08 am.
- 808-001 11:08 AM · 21 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:08 am and 11:10 am.
- 808-002 11:10 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:10 am to 11:16 am.
- 808-003 11:16 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House at 11:16 am.
- 808-004 11:16 AM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at 11:16 am.
- 808-006 11:41 AM · 40 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:41 am to 11:42 am.
- 808-007 11:42 AM · 21 min — President Richard M. Nixon and members of the Committee on the Health Services Industry, including Barbara Dunn, J. Alexander McMahon, Samuel J. Tibbitts, and James W. Haviland, as well as Herbert Stein, Donald H. Rumsfeld, James H. Cavanaugh, the White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull, met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:42 am to 12:03 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 808-005, October 27, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/808-005 (accessed October 9, 2026).