Conversation 808-005

TapeTape 808StartFriday, October 27, 1972 at 11:16 AMEndFriday, October 27, 1972 at 11:41 AMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Lee, Harold; White House photographer; Bull, Stephen B.Recording deviceOval Office

AI Summary

President Nixon met with Harold Lee to discuss international relations, specifically emphasizing the strategic importance of engaging with the People's Republic of China to maintain a balance of power against the Soviet Union. The conversation touched upon the future of U.S.-Japan security arrangements, the expected conclusion of the Vietnam War, and the administration's political standing among American voters heading into the 1972 election. Nixon articulated his pragmatic approach to foreign policy, noting the necessity of focusing on mutual interests rather than trust when dealing with global adversaries.

People's Republic of ChinaSoviet UnionVietnam WarUS-Japan relations1972 electionForeign policy strategy

Audio

NARA Description

On October 27, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Harold Lee, White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:16 am to 11:41 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 808-005 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 808-5

Date: October 27, 1972
Time: 11:16 am - 11:41 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Harold Lee. The White House photographer was present at the
beginning of the meeting.

         Greetings
             -Family
                 -Smith College
             -Travel Plans
                 -Tokyo

         The People's Republic of China [PRC]
             -Mao Tse-tung
                 -Longevity
             -Chiang Kai-shek
                 -Respect
             -Chou En-lai
                 -Ability as leader
             -Reasons for US-PRC rapprochement
                 -Soviet Union
             -Quality of life
             -Shanghai

                          (rev. Dec-03)

-Singapore
-Taipei
-Hong Kong
-Chinese women
     -Dress
-Quality of life
     -Productivity
     -Future
-Influence in world
-Chou En-lai
     -Age, vigor
     -Intellectual quality
          -Meetings with the President
     -World outlook
          -West
               -Soviet Union
                    -Divisions
                        -Europe
          -Indians
               -Soviet Relations
          -East
               -Japan
                    -Military
                    -Economy
-Reason for turning to US
     -Perception of US, Japan
-The President's meetings with Chou En-lai
     -US-Japan security agreement
          -Results of possible abrogation
               -Alternatives left Japan
                    -Soviet Union
                    -Rearmament
-US-Japan relations
     -Kakuei Tanaka’s trip to the PRC
-Chinese desires
     -US as Pacific power
          -Soviet Union
          -Japan
          -India
-The President’s reading
     -John K. Fairbank

                         (rev. Dec-03)

-Survival
-World role
-US interest
    -Dialogue
    -Soviet Union
    -History of China contacts
         -Pakistan
              -Chou En-lai
         -The President’s previous press conference
              -Visit to the PRC
-US relations
    -Recent history
    -Previous administrations
    -Lee’s previous visit with the President
-Vietnam
    -Agreement with North Vietnamese
    -Acceptance by Nguyen Van Thieu
    -Quality
         -US support to South Vietnam
              -Military replacement
              -Economic assistance
         -Coalition government
         -Need to end war
    -History of effort
         -Establishment
    -J. William Fulbright, Joseph W. Alsop
    -Anna C. Chennault [?]
         -Possible telephone call
         -Health
    -Henry A. Kissinger's October 26, 1972 announcement
         -End of war
              -Prediction
-US foreign policy
    -Soviet Union
    -Comparison of Soviet Union and PRC people
         -Chou En-lai compared with Leonid I. Brezhnev
-Chou En-lai
    -The President’s view
         -Chiang Kai-shek
-Taiwan, Republic of China
    -Realities of existence

                                         (rev. Dec-03)

                 -Chinese communists
                      -Possible agreement with Taiwan
                           -Economic system
                               -Productivity
                                   -Hong Kong
                                   -Wheat
                                        -Australia, Canada
             -Brezhnev
                 -The President’s view
                 -Meeting with the President
             -The President’s meetings with Chou En-lai and Mao Tse-tung
                 -Trust
                 -Interests
             -US bureaucracy

Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:16 am.

        The President's schedule

        Gifts for Lee
            -Family
                  -Pins
                  -Cuff links
                      -Presidential seal

Bull left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.

        Lee's family

*****************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 34s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

*****************************************************************

                               (rev. Dec-03)

    -Smith College
    -Wellesley College
        -Liberals

Liberals
    -Double standard
    -Welfare issue
         -The President's programs
             -Food stamps

The President's schedule
    -Lee’s home
        -Lee’s wife
    -Ohio
    -L. Nicholas Ruwe
    -West Virginia, Kentucky
    -Ruwe
    -Lee

Media relations
   -New York Times, Washington Post
        -Comparison
   -Time, Newsweek
   -Vietnam
   -The President’s trips to the Soviet Union and PRC

The President's decisions
    -Bureaucrats
    -Kissinger
    -The President's May 8, 1972 decision to bomb Hanoi and mine Haiphong harbor
        -Kissinger
        -US-Soviet summit, May 1972
US public opinion
    -Opponents of Vietnam War
        -Education
             -Businessmen
    -Administration supporters
        -Heartland of the US
             -Farmers
        -Labor
             -George Meany

                                         (rev. Dec-03)

                 -Italian-Americans
                 -Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants
             -Businessmen
                 -Donald McI. Kendall
             -The Establishment
                 -US
                      -Compared to France
                           -World War I
                      -Compared to Great Britain
                           -World War II
             -1972 election
                 -Education
                      -Intellectuals
                           -Social sciences, natural sciences

        Japan
            -Future
                -Tanaka
            -Lee’s visits
            -People
                -Compared to PRC
                     -Character

Bull entered and left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.

        Photograph

        Unknown man

        Post-1972 election
            -Possible firings

        Foreign relations
            -Soviet Union
            -PRC
            -Cities
                 -Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo
                      -Chinese

        Farewells
            -1972 election

                                           (rev. Dec-03)

Lee left at 11:41 am.

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

How are you?

Nice to see you.

How are you, Dad?

Good.

That's it over here.

All right.

Fine.

And how's your family?

Oh, okay.

That's good to know.

Do you have?

Yes.

Do you have two girls or two girls?

Yes.

Thank you.

It's terrible.

oh first the leaders of course is very old and he will not live long but he is

uh in terms of ability

Thank you.

They have done a great job, frankly, of putting an enormous country together and getting it to start to produce.

But in terms of what really matters in life, they have destroyed it.

That is the sad part.

That's not what's going to happen.

Chinese without having an enormous influence in the world.

I hope to God that over a period of time, shall we say, I don't know if it will, inevitably, of course, they will have a

Yeah.

Amen.

Thank you.

I said, I know the unsure view, but I'm going to tell you why you can't do it.

Why it's not very interesting.

I said, if we get out of Japan, we have to beat our enemies.

And here's Japan.

We have a frustration that we've been defeated.

We're a great people with an enormous drive and economic drive.

What do you think they're going to do?

They're either going to make a deal with the Russians, or they're going to read.

And I said, isn't it better to have us there restraining than to have them alone?

And from then on, they say they've left it entirely alone.

That's why they didn't raise the point.

The Japanese, they didn't tell us.

They said, well, we're not going to get the hell out.

But the U.S. state, they want the U.S. to get the initiative against the Chinese.

Thank you.

I did a lot of reading.

Oh.

But you've got to remember that 800 million Chinese, both of the people of the world, are going to play a great role in the world 15, 20 years from now.

And it's done well in our interest to be talking with them.

Thank you.

Is this something

Okay.

I can assure you that in one way or another, the war will be over before the end of the year.

Like that.

And then, we'll get on with the big arrow-less fight.

We're going to play the Chinese against the Russians.

I don't just want to know who you'll go to.

I do agree.

Because I don't trust either one of the bastards.

Understand?

I'm not rewriting people.

Let me say what I was told.

Let me say that another thing.

No, because it's the Russian people.

And I can only say this to a friend.

Thank you.

I just wish you and I...

Thank you.

I don't know.

I respect the pressure.

We're going to get along for a while.

We don't trust him, and he doesn't trust me.

And that's the way I started the conversation.

And I told him, I said, you have no reason.

I told him lots of times.

I said, Mr. Chairman, I said, you know my background.

I said, you have no reason to trust me.

And of course, I have no reason to trust you.

Let's not talk about that.

Let's talk about our interests.

Well, that's the way they talk to you.

Thank you.

Tell me about, do you still have the house in the Hill?

Yes.

One day, the next term, I hope to come.

I'm going to go to my wife and see if she's there.

Thank you.

I did all that.

Thank you.

It's out there in the heartland.

It's the farmers.

It's the labor guys like George King.

It's the Italians.

It's the Catholics.

It's the good fundamentalist Protestants.

Thank you.

I'm sorry.

My friend, Harold.

Thank you.

Good luck.

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