{"conversationCode":"808-005","tapeNumber":808,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-808-005","startDateTime":"1972-10-27T15:16:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-10-27T15:41:00.000Z","startDate":"27-Oct-1972","startTime":"11:16 AM","endDate":"27-Oct-1972","endTime":"11:41 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Lee, Harold; White House photographer; Bull, Stephen B.;","description":"On October 27, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Harold Lee, White House photographer, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:16 am to 11:41 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 808-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 808-5\n\nDate: October 27, 1972\nTime: 11:16 am - 11:41 am\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Harold Lee. The White House photographer was present at the\nbeginning of the meeting.\n\n         Greetings\n             -Family\n                 -Smith College\n             -Travel Plans\n                 -Tokyo\n\n         The People's Republic of China [PRC]\n             -Mao Tse-tung\n                 -Longevity\n             -Chiang Kai-shek\n                 -Respect\n             -Chou En-lai\n                 -Ability as leader\n             -Reasons for US-PRC rapprochement\n                 -Soviet Union\n             -Quality of life\n             -Shanghai\n\n-Singapore\n-Taipei\n-Hong Kong\n-Chinese women\n     -Dress\n-Quality of life\n     -Productivity\n     -Future\n-Influence in world\n-Chou En-lai\n     -Age, vigor\n     -Intellectual quality\n          -Meetings with the President\n     -World outlook\n          -West\n               -Soviet Union\n                    -Divisions\n                        -Europe\n          -Indians\n               -Soviet Relations\n          -East\n               -Japan\n                    -Military\n                    -Economy\n-Reason for turning to US\n     -Perception of US, Japan\n-The President's meetings with Chou En-lai\n     -US-Japan security agreement\n          -Results of possible abrogation\n               -Alternatives left Japan\n                    -Soviet Union\n                    -Rearmament\n-US-Japan relations\n     -Kakuei Tanaka’s trip to the PRC\n-Chinese desires\n     -US as Pacific power\n          -Soviet Union\n          -Japan\n          -India\n-The President’s reading\n     -John K. Fairbank\n\n-Survival\n-World role\n-US interest\n    -Dialogue\n    -Soviet Union\n    -History of China contacts\n         -Pakistan\n              -Chou En-lai\n         -The President’s previous press conference\n              -Visit to the PRC\n-US relations\n    -Recent history\n    -Previous administrations\n    -Lee’s previous visit with the President\n-Vietnam\n    -Agreement with North Vietnamese\n    -Acceptance by Nguyen Van Thieu\n    -Quality\n         -US support to South Vietnam\n              -Military replacement\n              -Economic assistance\n         -Coalition government\n         -Need to end war\n    -History of effort\n         -Establishment\n    -J. William Fulbright, Joseph W. Alsop\n    -Anna C. Chennault [?]\n         -Possible telephone call\n         -Health\n    -Henry A. Kissinger's October 26, 1972 announcement\n         -End of war\n              -Prediction\n-US foreign policy\n    -Soviet Union\n    -Comparison of Soviet Union and PRC people\n         -Chou En-lai compared with Leonid I. Brezhnev\n-Chou En-lai\n    -The President’s view\n         -Chiang Kai-shek\n-Taiwan, Republic of China\n    -Realities of existence\n\n                 -Chinese communists\n                      -Possible agreement with Taiwan\n                           -Economic system\n                               -Productivity\n                                   -Hong Kong\n                                   -Wheat\n                                        -Australia, Canada\n             -Brezhnev\n                 -The President’s view\n                 -Meeting with the President\n             -The President’s meetings with Chou En-lai and Mao Tse-tung\n                 -Trust\n                 -Interests\n             -US bureaucracy\n\nStephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:16 am.\n\n        The President's schedule\n\n        Gifts for Lee\n            -Family\n                  -Pins\n                  -Cuff links\n                      -Presidential seal\n\nBull left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.\n\n        Lee's family\n\n*****************************************************************\n\nBEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2\n[Personal returnable]\n[Duration: 34s ]\n\nEND WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n    -Smith College\n    -Wellesley College\n        -Liberals\n\nLiberals\n    -Double standard\n    -Welfare issue\n         -The President's programs\n             -Food stamps\n\nThe President's schedule\n    -Lee’s home\n        -Lee’s wife\n    -Ohio\n    -L. Nicholas Ruwe\n    -West Virginia, Kentucky\n    -Ruwe\n    -Lee\n\nMedia relations\n   -New York Times, Washington Post\n        -Comparison\n   -Time, Newsweek\n   -Vietnam\n   -The President’s trips to the Soviet Union and PRC\n\nThe President's decisions\n    -Bureaucrats\n    -Kissinger\n    -The President's May 8, 1972 decision to bomb Hanoi and mine Haiphong harbor\n        -Kissinger\n        -US-Soviet summit, May 1972\nUS public opinion\n    -Opponents of Vietnam War\n        -Education\n             -Businessmen\n    -Administration supporters\n        -Heartland of the US\n             -Farmers\n        -Labor\n             -George Meany\n\n                 -Italian-Americans\n                 -Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants\n             -Businessmen\n                 -Donald McI. Kendall\n             -The Establishment\n                 -US\n                      -Compared to France\n                           -World War I\n                      -Compared to Great Britain\n                           -World War II\n             -1972 election\n                 -Education\n                      -Intellectuals\n                           -Social sciences, natural sciences\n\n        Japan\n            -Future\n                -Tanaka\n            -Lee’s visits\n            -People\n                -Compared to PRC\n                     -Character\n\nBull entered and left at an unknown time before 11:41 am.\n\n        Photograph\n\n        Unknown man\n\n        Post-1972 election\n            -Possible firings\n\n        Foreign relations\n            -Soviet Union\n            -PRC\n            -Cities\n                 -Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo\n                      -Chinese\n\n        Farewells\n            -1972 election\n\nLee left at 11:41 am.","filename":["808-005.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Lee, Harold","White House photographer","Bull, Stephen B."],"prevCode":"808-004","nextCode":"808-006","transcript":[{"start":4.3,"end":4.58,"text":"How are you?"},{"start":4.96,"end":6.28,"text":"How are you?"},{"start":7.52,"end":8.74,"text":"Nice to see you."},{"start":9.66,"end":10.38,"text":"Nice to see you."},{"start":10.68,"end":11.22,"text":"How are you, Dad?"},{"start":11.46,"end":11.6,"text":"Good."},{"start":12.42,"end":13.36,"text":"That's it over here."},{"start":13.38,"end":14.56,"text":"All right."},{"start":14.58,"end":15.24,"text":"All right."},{"start":18,"end":18.2,"text":"Fine."},{"start":19.26,"end":19.48,"text":"Fine."},{"start":19.88,"end":21.46,"text":"And how's your family?"},{"start":21.92,"end":23.66,"text":"Oh, okay."},{"start":23.68,"end":26.1,"text":"That's good to know."},{"start":26.2,"end":28.61,"text":"That's good to know."},{"start":28.62,"end":29.45,"text":"Do you have?"},{"start":29.46,"end":29.55,"text":"Yes."},{"start":29.61,"end":31.91,"text":"Do you have two girls or two girls?"},{"start":31.97,"end":32.11,"text":"Yes."},{"start":45.71,"end":47.15,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":49.38,"end":51.18,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":77.74,"end":79.08,"text":"It's terrible."},{"start":86.06,"end":103.24,"text":"oh first the leaders of course is very old and he will not live long but he is"},{"start":117.44,"end":129.27,"text":"uh in terms of ability"},{"start":141.94,"end":145.74,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":146.14,"end":146.7,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":229.67,"end":240.68,"text":"They have done a great job, frankly, of putting an enormous country together and getting it to start to produce."},{"start":240.74,"end":245.73,"text":"But in terms of what really matters in life, they have destroyed it."},{"start":245.83,"end":248.97,"text":"That is the sad part."},{"start":249.25,"end":251.03,"text":"That's not what's going to happen."},{"start":255.46,"end":260.66,"text":"Chinese without having an enormous influence in the world."},{"start":260.68,"end":272.41,"text":"I hope to God that over a period of time, shall we say, I don't know if it will, inevitably, of course, they will have a"},{"start":288.02,"end":288.46,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":288.66,"end":290.42,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":302.81,"end":303.17,"text":"Amen."},{"start":303.51,"end":303.99,"text":"Amen."},{"start":331.52,"end":331.98,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":392.32,"end":397.15,"text":"I said, I know the unsure view, but I'm going to tell you why you can't do it."},{"start":397.29,"end":399.45,"text":"Why it's not very interesting."},{"start":399.47,"end":404.37,"text":"I said, if we get out of Japan, we have to beat our enemies."},{"start":404.41,"end":404.75,"text":"And here's Japan."},{"start":404.77,"end":408.43,"text":"We have a frustration that we've been defeated."},{"start":408.45,"end":412.97,"text":"We're a great people with an enormous drive and economic drive."},{"start":412.99,"end":413.77,"text":"What do you think they're going to do?"},{"start":413.79,"end":416.63,"text":"They're either going to make a deal with the Russians, or they're going to read."},{"start":418.4,"end":422.58,"text":"And I said, isn't it better to have us there restraining than to have them alone?"},{"start":422.6,"end":428.36,"text":"And from then on, they say they've left it entirely alone."},{"start":428.78,"end":430.24,"text":"That's why they didn't raise the point."},{"start":430.26,"end":432.82,"text":"The Japanese, they didn't tell us."},{"start":434.12,"end":436.99,"text":"They said, well, we're not going to get the hell out."},{"start":437.59,"end":443.85,"text":"But the U.S. state, they want the U.S. to get the initiative against the Chinese."},{"start":451.54,"end":453.99,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":462.96,"end":474.57,"text":"I did a lot of reading."},{"start":475.51,"end":483.98,"text":"I did a lot of reading."},{"start":500.07,"end":500.19,"text":"Oh."},{"start":513.42,"end":521.39,"text":"But you've got to remember that 800 million Chinese, both of the people of the world, are going to play a great role in the world 15, 20 years from now."},{"start":522.69,"end":526.65,"text":"And it's done well in our interest to be talking with them."},{"start":530.97,"end":531.75,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":576.1,"end":577.14,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":629.94,"end":630.63,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":641.71,"end":647.5,"text":"Is this something"},{"start":667.37,"end":668.45,"text":"Okay."},{"start":697.36,"end":704.38,"text":"I can assure you that in one way or another, the war will be over before the end of the year."},{"start":704.4,"end":704.85,"text":"Like that."},{"start":704.87,"end":707.07,"text":"And then, we'll get on with the big arrow-less fight."},{"start":707.11,"end":712.23,"text":"We're going to play the Chinese against the Russians."},{"start":712.25,"end":713.45,"text":"I don't just want to know who you'll go to."},{"start":713.47,"end":713.75,"text":"I do agree."},{"start":713.77,"end":716.29,"text":"Because I don't trust either one of the bastards."},{"start":716.32,"end":716.53,"text":"Understand?"},{"start":716.55,"end":717.68,"text":"I'm not rewriting people."},{"start":717.7,"end":718.42,"text":"Let me say what I was told."},{"start":718.44,"end":720.16,"text":"Let me say that another thing."},{"start":720.18,"end":720.98,"text":"No, because it's the Russian people."},{"start":721,"end":723.98,"text":"And I can only say this to a friend."},{"start":727.92,"end":731.21,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":736.21,"end":745.31,"text":"I just wish you and I..."},{"start":765.23,"end":767.76,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":780.74,"end":783.94,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":834.88,"end":840.87,"text":"I respect the pressure."},{"start":852.86,"end":855.78,"text":"We're going to get along for a while."},{"start":855.8,"end":858,"text":"We don't trust him, and he doesn't trust me."},{"start":858.02,"end":859.58,"text":"And that's the way I started the conversation."},{"start":859.6,"end":861.58,"text":"And I told him, I said, you have no reason."},{"start":861.6,"end":863.28,"text":"I told him lots of times."},{"start":863.34,"end":866.3,"text":"I said, Mr. Chairman, I said, you know my background."},{"start":866.32,"end":869.86,"text":"I said, you have no reason to trust me."},{"start":869.92,"end":874.06,"text":"And of course, I have no reason to trust you."},{"start":874.08,"end":874.72,"text":"Let's not talk about that."},{"start":874.74,"end":876.24,"text":"Let's talk about our interests."},{"start":876.3,"end":877.68,"text":"Well, that's the way they talk to you."},{"start":890.77,"end":893.27,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":914.32,"end":919.35,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":963.47,"end":964.09,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":982.38,"end":985.13,"text":"Tell me about, do you still have the house in the Hill?"},{"start":985.15,"end":985.23,"text":"Yes."},{"start":985.35,"end":987.83,"text":"One day, the next term, I hope to come."},{"start":987.85,"end":992.05,"text":"I'm going to go to my wife and see if she's there."},{"start":995.91,"end":996.93,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1012.85,"end":1013.83,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1044.56,"end":1046.64,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1073.13,"end":1074.1,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1106.1,"end":1121.45,"text":"I did all that."},{"start":1131.94,"end":1132.48,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1177.79,"end":1180.16,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1198.38,"end":1201.6,"text":"It's out there in the heartland."},{"start":1201.8,"end":1203.8,"text":"It's the farmers."},{"start":1204.04,"end":1206.44,"text":"It's the labor guys like George King."},{"start":1206.46,"end":1207.66,"text":"It's the Italians."},{"start":1207.68,"end":1209.77,"text":"It's the Catholics."},{"start":1209.79,"end":1212.67,"text":"It's the good fundamentalist Protestants."},{"start":1214.09,"end":1215.86,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1232.05,"end":1232.43,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1259.41,"end":1261.95,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1293.2,"end":1294.94,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1317.54,"end":1318.08,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1342.31,"end":1350.15,"text":"I'm sorry."},{"start":1350.47,"end":1356.84,"text":"I'm sorry."},{"start":1377.65,"end":1378.58,"text":"My friend, Harold."},{"start":1397.47,"end":1398.77,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1426.32,"end":1426.66,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":1436.7,"end":1440.84,"text":"Good luck."},{"start":1443.8,"end":1446.36,"text":"Good luck."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon met with Harold Lee to discuss international relations, specifically emphasizing the strategic importance of engaging with the People's Republic of China to maintain a balance of power against the Soviet Union. The conversation touched upon the future of U.S.-Japan security arrangements, the expected conclusion of the Vietnam War, and the administration's political standing among American voters heading into the 1972 election. Nixon articulated his pragmatic approach to foreign policy, noting the necessity of focusing on mutual interests rather than trust when dealing with global adversaries.","topics":["People's Republic of China","Soviet Union","Vietnam War","US-Japan relations","1972 election","Foreign policy strategy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-08T00:13:04.142Z"},"topicSlugs":["peoples-republic-of-china","soviet-union","vietnam-war","us-japan-relations","1972-election","foreign-policy-strategy"],"audioDurationSec":1469,"audioFiles":[{"file":"808-005.mp3","bytes":35251512,"durationSec":1468.75,"bitrate":192008,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:58.477Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:37.163Z","transcriptGapSeconds":33,"transcriptGapShare":0.02,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/808-005.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/808-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/808/conversation-808-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}