On October 31, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:52 pm to 3:23 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 810-015 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
And it was basically a very good speech, but it read better than it spoke.
And therefore there was no bloodline at all.
The only...
But what I thought was fascinating was the, he said, not first in the speech, he said, now, only in the presence, near success, he's got a, he's got the outlines of the peace agreement.
He insists on, that all the details must be worked out because he doesn't want an armistice, he wants a peace.
That can't be because Americans would rather have such a president.
Everybody got up and applauded.
Did they?
Yeah.
And then the press, you know, these are not necessarily getting the question period.
He said, they asked him again the question, and he then read that quote from my press, saying we will not be stampeded and we will not be deflected.
And he said to the president's policy, and I'm proud to back it, and all Americans should back it.
Again, they all got up.
The only two times he got up was with us.
In other words, he took a very strong opposing line.
Well, my own view about all this, of course, is that if they do, we've always done this when we're attacked by demonstrators outside here back in October.
Instead of sniveling around like half this, most of the staff would have done that, we fight.
And then you make an attempt to do that.
I think Mr. Bess has had a really good position of all now because
I'm now getting out of there, but they want troops to leave.
I've gotten into CPS.
Did you?
Yeah.
You see, I triggered it with the Los Angeles Times, so that we wanted all troops to leave.
So they're all coming to me, and I said, no, but we want some of them to leave.
So now the New York Times is picking it up tomorrow.
I can't do it without Ben Caldwell.
I know he's not my best friend, but of this sort of stuff, he is...
I thought it was better for Cald to do it than for Dan Rather, who doesn't understand it so well.
Well, yeah, Cald is smart.
And you were also taking the life of the—we were insisting that
That's right.
So they asked, well, Marvin Kell, for example, has now understood that it isn't a coalition government.
He called up, that's why he called up, he said, Jesus Christ, I've thought about that.
Are you telling me?
He had heard Severide's commentary.
And I've got Severide really totally dominated.
Good.
So he said, can...
I said, I tell you, Marvin, I've been trying to tell it to you.
He's absolutely right.
He said, but then they'd collapse.
I said, I wouldn't use those words, but that seems to be it.
He said, well, if they had a third smartphone, that would really convince them all that that was a smart devil.
But by your not signing it, I think your moral position is absolutely understandable.
Also, you see, one of the reasons for not signing
These people have a very sour memory of the bombing of 1968 when they rushed into it under so-called understandings that were not kept.
It isn't easy to screw Vietnamese, but really, I hate to say it, but they must have had victory parties then.
How's the press play?
Are people last?
Oh, boys will be boys, you know.
They're yakking again.
I said, I know what they've got to do.
I said, they yell.
I said, if I listened to everything that's said now from Hanoi or Saigon, we'd go out of our mind.
I said, Jew is going to yell.
Hanoi is going to yell.
But what's Hanoi yelling about?
They want us to sign a piece of paper.
We're going to sign it.
You want to nail down.
All the ambiguity is cleared up.
But they are right up the creek right now, you see, on the one hand.
I've thought about it.
They cannot negotiate again this week.
It's too humiliating for them to negotiate, to ask at the time of 31st, and negotiate on the 1st, and having promised them a bombing hold right after the negotiation.
They must have excluded a special time for it.
That's how their minds work.
And that's why they're attacking, for the good of me, as well as you, by saying, when I set peace at hand, I wasn't telling the truth.
But, so that's one part of their dilemma.
But the other part of their dilemma is that they can't kick the agreement over without losing their position that we should sign the agreement.
So they keep saying,
election.
I think on November 8th we have arrived at a seemingly very friendly letter saying, now that you are re-elected, you want to reaffirm everything in the agreement, now let's get it finished.
And we'll start negotiating.
Then if the Paris concern is down, we'll just merge.
Since October 22nd, we have the better record.
We've made move after move to the
I think, too, right after the election is when we have to write a cue.
Nobody's got to get the hell on board here.
Nobody's got to quiet it down.
Do you think so?
Yeah, I think he's going to quiet it down.
The screaming from the audience has got to reassure him some.
Yeah.
But you think he is going to quiet it down?
Yeah.
All in all, I think this thing is coming out.
It's going to come out in the best possible way, because on the one hand,
I don't know how much this is helping us in the polls, but I do think it's so overriding Watergate and other stuff.
And it's dominating the news in such a, basically, on your 40s that people are thinking of you in what has always been in the public opinion, right?
And all the other crap is dog yapping at your heels.
Right.
So I think from that point of view, it's very positive.
And it shows you as strong, because you're not taking the easy way out of signing.
I like that.
Just before election.
The more you can get that, the better.
You're telling them all that, that I'm not going to be signing anything this time.
Absolutely.
And I had never gotten as much mail.
I've had about 500 telegrams, of which 432 were totally favorable.
I just don't think these...
The new summer is a little misleading because it can serve as a negative.
And I think the liberals have to do it fast.
Now that they see we're raising a truth issue, they have to shift back to the other side.
Start attacking them.
Yeah.
They'll go back to their talk and say, why are we in this country?
They're not.
That's because there's troops heading out.
Well, I think that's true.
It's always beyond belief that they elect on the agreement.
Yeah, and I've always said it shouldn't be in the agreement.
It should be in the mattress.
That's what you've been telling me.
Well, first I put it out a little bit diabolically.
I put it out as if we wanted all troops to leave.
So that now when I say what we really want, people think it's modern.
We want some.
We want some of the divisions of the North to leave.
I think, Mr. President, that when you announce this thing towards the end of November, it's going to be a good start for your second administration.
It's got to be done.
It's got to be done.
But I think we ought to start moving the B-52s further north.
Absolutely.
Because the only thing that will send some pictures, and then the day after your election, we ought to start reconnaissance around Hanoi again.
Sure.
And then, if after a week they don't answer, we ought to start bombing up there again.
They'll answer.
They have another problem, too.
What do they say now?
Since we haven't signed the agreement, they could say, well, all bets are off.
We're going to continue the war.
They know that whoever decided that they continue the war will not handle that one.
They won't do it.
They have been screwed, and they know it.
I mean, they've lost the extra territory they were going to seize.
They now cannot see, because every hand that they've occupied, they're going to get ground down.
Are they?
They can't do it a second time.
They just hung out there by the skin of their teeth through the end of October.
They've lost a tremendous amount of faith, so their cadets are telling them, they were going to get you to sign before November 7th.
So now you've established yourself as a strong man.
You are settling as you've finished.
Well, we may have a few more, but that's the way it always works, isn't it?
What is it?
Nothing works for other companies, you see.
You know?
But the point was that for it really to be worthwhile, it has to come hard.
It has to come hard.
We've got what it says on the right side of the deal.
We've just got to do it.
Let it not happen to someone for a while, and we'll make the veterans cave a little bit more.
That's what I'm trying to say.
The press will... After the press, it goes on to our press.
Oh, they're better than some.
I can put a standing ovation when he says it's the only time they've floated.
And it wasn't on television anyway, so it doesn't make any difference.
At this point, we've got the applause.
He said, we won't.
He said, I'm proud to have the president who is willing to insist that it's a peace and not an armistice.
And every American I know shares this pride in this whole kind of thing.
Thank you.
And then in the question period, it came up again.
He said, that's what the president's policy is.
I stand behind it, and I'm proud of it, and again, they applaud.
You know, it puts that jackass in a very good spot.
What can he say now?
He's already wants to renegotiate the agreement, and now he wants to sign it.
He wants to sign it, but not be bound by
Well, it's not huge.
There's almost nothing they can do that does them any good.
They may walk out on Thursday.
They may not show up on Thursday.
But it's their business.
The main thing is they cannot launch an offensive.
We know that.
Remember that offensive they were always supposed to have?
They sort of have it now, but
The trouble is, they're drawing down half of them.
The only thing that worries me is that they're getting so big that they may not be able to afford to supply.
They may have to go through another resupply cycle.
Wow.
But then they'll just have to knock the shit out of them for three months.
Why not take that long?
They'll be fine.
Why not take that long?
We hit them as hard as...
You're getting a Chinese note today.
They're perfect.
I understand that it's tough for them.
I mean, if they have dinner with me, it's social dinner.
Well, I'm very proud of the North Vietnamese as we are and such.
Well, I suppose that the Chinese, that's one possibility.
They might blast us.
Now, we've got this thing.
This has been the balancing act.
Even Joe Graff today said,
It's one of the most masterful diplomatic performances he's had, first with China and the Soviet Union away from Hanoi, then the U.S. Hanoi against Saigon, now the U.S. Saigon against Hanoi.
He said it's the most dexterous performance, and of course he winds up saying it's all for nothing.
Of course it isn't worth it, but... Yeah, I know.
All around the business side, you know,
But they'll get off that after the election.
Of course, it's worth it.
I thought the President resented it.
He saved the respect and the honor of the United States of America.
That's what's involved, doesn't it?
That's right.
But I will have to then go to Florida.
I have to go for a reason.
I don't want to start a problem in Canada.
That's where we understand it's going to be a tough game after the election.
That's what it was all about.
We don't have the power, and we're not going to screw around with these people.
I know I think we might have screwed them, but let us say they were trying to screw us, too.
That's not a mistake.
The way they were seizing that territory, the way they were bringing them as a coalition government, having paper settlements, that was not too much of a good thing.
They were trying to stack me up.
In the long term, they'll have more respect, please.
Just don't stampede.
So we may have made a slight mistake in suggesting a schedule.
We changed it within 48 hours as soon as we saw what was happening.
Sure.
I don't think it was a mistake.
You suggested a schedule in order to get the damn thing done.
But we've left a huge concession, sir.
Yeah.
Henry, they've got to be weak.
They've got to be weak.
I would have been quick.
You know, I think that's Q's problem, too.
I noticed, for example, last week he had $560,000.
$560,000.
KIA.
No, no, I think we're giving Q... We're giving Q... Max Franco, when I talked to him today, he said, you know, I think you're just putting on a terrific act with Q that all you want to do is give him four weeks to get ready.
To get ready.
And he said you've got it all set up now.
Are you ready to walk?
For peace.
Oh.
Do you really think you've got to calm down at all?
He should mention about that somehow.
After all, the way we're standing now.
Mr. President, what he will do, it won't help you in the election, but after the election, he will say that we've now got to make the concessions for him.
He'll claim a great victory.
But you make the concessions.
He's got to realize, too, he's got a hell of an important friend here in the White House.
You will have to see him in about a week or two.
I told him in San Clemente is what you were saying.
Does he buy the debt or not?
Yeah, he likes San Clemente.
Does he want to do it?
Well, yeah, but he didn't want to be rushed.
From his point of view, he's done.
Henry gets waited on this weekend.
Mr. President, I promise you that this week would have been a better year.
You do all of the background that you can, but particularly keep in touch with, if you would, if you haven't got a chancellor or anything.
I haven't got a chancellor.
The chancellor, when you see each of these, say that the president's just always talking about that.
Because I said you can't rule with everybody, and I'm picking your pick from senior people.
You can say the president would like to have this kind of relationship in the future, too.
I love that, you know, that makes me think that as we get to the second chamber, I'd be very nice to them and say, do you do that now?
Do you chancellor?
Do you separate?
Keep doing, you know, and, you know, and spend.
What's wrong with that?
I gave slightly a lot of baloney this morning.
I said, the president, and he talks with me to ask, has anyone ever entered this way?
We've been discussing historical resettlements.
The president.
my behalf, I could have talked about it.
Has any war ever ended, you said?
Ended in such a way that without a clear cutoff, the heat gobbled it all up.
Part of the problem, after the crisis, was he made
They are just.
They are up the goddamn wall.
But not because.
and particularly not soft.
And finally, what you see, our presidents are really for a bug out.
They are for a second U.S.
They don't like U.S. power.
They know very well that if you bring this up, that everything they predicted was going to be wrong.
I mean, all these bleeding hearts about you and so forth.
they know that it isn't a coalition government.
They know that none of them believes that you could survive.
They know that none of them believes we could continue to give military aid.
What will they be criticizing you for?
Your obstinate holding on to a corrupt military dictator?
Sure.
We all have problems with the goddamn Congress.
In terms of trying to get them to...
Well, but I think after... No, no, no.
I think we can get the money for it.
If you do as well as you may in the election.
Well, well.
Let me just have to sweat it out.
But we're doing the right thing.
The main thing is this.
We're not going to be able to use the right word.
We're not going to worry about it.
We can't worry about the ships and germs.
I will attack one day, and you will attack another day.
The warships will attack another day.
I know I will not pray irreparably with you.
Not before November 7th.
Not with the Poles.
They do.
They do.
Why?
Why would it be a problem for them, too?
But why should they, Mr. President?
Why should they do this?
Particularly with the Poles.
I mean them.
Is that right?
Yes.
I mean you and them.
They'd like to mail you to the agreement.
Now, they're yacking a bit now because they want to give the impression that there is no peace agreement.
They'd like to hurt you, but they don't want to disavow it.
Well, I suppose that would be a disillusioning to people.
I don't believe it.
This is not a hand.
The press is not saying a goddamn thing.
The press is sort of belittling it.
On Friday, I'll clean up whatever
Oh, but you'll have to press with you.
That could be better, basically, but tell them that it's... Well, someday for Saturday.
Yeah, tell them that you don't want it after immediate release.
It's all beyond 39.
Or we'll leave it to a Friday morning before we leave.
What time are you leaving?
We won't leave until Chicago, not until 11 o'clock.
Why don't you do it in the morning?
I'll talk to him about it.
I think you can do it in the morning very easily.
That's not bad at all.
And we go over to Chicago at 11 o'clock.
See, that's fine.
No, it certainly is true, though, that the presence of our opponents are surely very striking.
The yellow stripes aren't there anymore.
The basket is still laying for old members.
And I saw that and I said, why, oh, lousy basket.
Rather than say, well, maybe we were wrong.
I'd say, well, he's pushed up the campaign.
It's the eagles that did it.
Oh, shit.
The eagles and he was actually around.
You can't have a man as vice president.
And the whole point is that the whole point is the eagles didn't do it.
That hurt him some.
He was behind before you'll ever have 20 points, and the reason he's behind is the country doesn't believe in what the son of a bitch stands for.
They just didn't like Marlo Thomas and Shirley MacLaine running around talking about it for them.
I know, I know, I know.
And they didn't like the looks of the people.
That's right.
And they were a sleazy-looking bunch of...
Thank you.