Conversation 815-011

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Good morning, sir.

You were, uh, you tried to reach me.

You said you were in Hawaii.

Well, I had, uh, the real estate thing.

Yeah.

You were having an invention over there, and it just happened that it happened to be in New York.

And I love it, but listen, Monaco.

Isn't that a great spot?

Yeah, it's right by the color.

It's a spot.

Oh, yeah.

That's a big spot.

Yeah.

Is that where you stay?

Yeah.

That's great.

I never stayed here.

I watched the folks here in 1966.

I remember you living here so many years ago.

I've been all over Hawaii.

Yeah, it was a lovely place to go.

The only great thing about that spot is that it's desert-like, and you can depend on the weather.

Also, you know, we're poking down if you've got to look for monkeys.

You go to the water.

I'll swim.

I like to go.

And that's a great proposal.

I'll have some coffee, and we'll have a go-go-go.

That's a good idea.

The Secretary has really three things.

I suggested to him that we get one for sure today, and the other two within the subsequent meetings, because his time, he says, he'll be around.

Oh, sure.

And I think it's important that we get into the others, but maybe

one of them at least at a time when we know who his successor is going to be.

But his personal plans, I think, are the best today.

Yeah, we ought to do that.

And if it's up in regard to the other, we ought to get you.

Well, whoever you want.

Yeah, if you discuss the muscle, if you have a man who does the thing.

Yes, but that's a man who must believe.

Yeah.

The Secretary can stay until the successor is confirmed.

Good.

I frankly would like you to say that, you know, as long as you want on that mission, but I thought that you said you wanted to worry about if you know what it means to be your own place.

No, I had the first year's final mission.

All right.

Yeah.

You see what the three things are really to express.

The lessons I think I learned from what we've been doing in our department, the recommendations I would make there.

Yeah.

And the second are some observations with respect to the national problems.

And then the third, my own plan.

Right.

Maybe, certainly the first one I think we should, I'd rather do that when it's a little fresher, when I can do it a little fresher, all right?

When I'm ready to talk to the next guy, but I'm not, we haven't finally determined yet where we're going to go, I'd like to get a little, I'd like to talk to you, and then of course you, then I would like to be able to guide you to talk to him, see if everything's good.

So I'm going to set that up, John, for you.

Let me make this general.

Number one.

I'm convinced that our department is into retail too much to be used in business terms.

We've got to get the whole segment in, and we've got to shift most of the responsibilities in the housing field, particularly subsidized roads, to the states.

And I think the states ought to begin to carry out the detailed responsibilities in the housing field.

And also in the community law field, Mr. President.

Because I think we're too much in the community law with

with great discretion from the states to do what they want in this field.

That's correct.

And I would agree with the general observations.

The question is, George, how the hell do you do it when you've got this Congress sitting around out there keeping everything so tight?

We try to reorganize.

We try to do it.

That's a real problem.

Well, I think you're going to be confronted with this with respect to your budget.

As far as I can tell, what you're confronted with is some real cutbacks in the budget in order to avoid higher taxes.

That's correct.

That's right.

And there's many deep cutbacks in housing subsidies and community development subsidies.

Then the question is going to be, well,

What's the answer to this, essentially?

I think you need to indicate at the start that there's an intention to, again, to take the responsibility of the states in these areas.

And it's going to take about four years for the states to take up those responsibilities because they're going to have to make some steps toward it.

We can't use this direction.

We should be a bunch of messengers.

That's right, and he's a very good advisor.

Yeah, I have assistance with one, and also with our own.

But sometimes when he's not, you know, I want to have more and more of a back.

I want to have this very good company.

uh, not just housing, which is important in itself, but community development is an area that we, well, again, frankly, the domestic field you're talking about, you've got community development, you've got this great event, and you've got, you know, all that money being wasted from all that sort of thing, and so much of it is frozen in.

And we just got to get at it.

So second problem, I have to question it.

Various interests fighting with each other, the highway people and the railroad people and the rest.

So we just try to do this.

We can't accept it.

But at least two areas, what we in effect are not being inherited.

in terms of some experiences we've had on the decentralization process

And on the plus side, on the plus side, I was recognized.

We must have done something, right?

Because we had the elevator.

I mean, it was the gas.

It was the afterburner for the economic takeoff, wasn't it?

Yeah, that's right.

We should agree.

Yeah.

That's right.

Because, you remember when we sat here with the building?

You know those people, about two years ago, they were good soldiers.

That's what I'm sure they were.

How do you feel now?

Well, of course, they're on top of the world.

I mean, they went on and worked hard.

They were on the way down, and we talked them up, but then we all ran out of distance.

And I want you to know, you've just done a fabulous job there.

And the message, the letter, which I will want to write to John,

Get a little substance that I'll put in hand in the future.

I want some substance because I want to cover what George is doing in the house.

Now in the house, let's get a little bit of also about the three yard extension because we move in that direction.

I want it to be as a result of his having started in that direction.

And, you know, we're taking all the domestic people and nothing...

I was some old friend, you know, who supported the Iranians in the Senate, in the House, and even when I lost in 1962, or wrote to me, confessing as much, and I said, I went on the slide.

It's never been an election.

It's been over a period of many, many years.

And I said, what you did so many years ago, whatever it was, some guy, some banker, or some school teacher harassed your party when the days were tough to help the building.

And that's what this is.

Why don't you follow what you've done here?

That's right.

And the states, I mean, at that time, and one reason the states, some of the reasons why the states have to be proud of this is, number one, providing housing in the central cities is more of a social problem than it is a physical problem.

And the states have the responsibility for the administration's social problem, and they've got to relate it to it.

And the other is...

But the problems of these cities can't be worked out without developing a better local governmental structure to deal with these problems.

And only the states can do that.

You can't have as balkan as they spoke, as Mr. Erickson, and deal with the problem of the cities.

And the states, the states need the responsibility so that they'll come up to, come to grips with that travel.

And then I understand what they're saying.

I agree.

He feels strongly that it's Rockefeller because he's had his terrible battle against him.

That's right.

He says the states have to take over everything.

They're running the railroads.

They're driving around the city and everything.

Well, I think the federal government ought to stop bypassing the station unit.

You know the station is just on the station.

All right.

Now, moving on to my own situation issue, I have discussed with you previously my concern about this view that we are too dependent upon.

We've got a worldwide crisis.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And also reform, basically.

Right with that.

That's correct.

You think it has to be from without as well as with that.

That's correct.

Now, since I made my statements following our last conference, I've had these developments.

Jim Roach and Annie High School and Bernard Jordan are the three vice chairmen of the Urban Coalition that come to me and ask me if I want to head up the Urban Coalition.

Well, uh, then, uh, I can't, I can't, I can't agree to it.

George, uh, uh, what they're trying to do to you is to get you to take something that is really flat on its back.

And I can't agree to it.

Do you agree, George?

Yes, but I think he's got an interesting idea.

You got it?

All right.

Well, then stop it.

That was what I meant.

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uh, is in directions that I know won't work, but still there with massive support from people of the type that they are.

Now, Clint Stone and Roger Twinsley, who now head up this National Center for Vulnerable Action,

Yeah.

They came to me and they asked me to head that out.

So it's great those fans are having some security.

Excellent security.

And then, like I said, they've got 177 voluntary action information centers now.

And they've got a clearing council type we talked about.

It's working.

They're answering 600 to 700 inquiries a week as to what works in different fields of activity.

But anyway, so I said to both of these groups,

My real concern is in strengthening the private sector and undertaking to overcome this deficiency that I see in the general political process.

You know, we're too dependent on a crisis to get fundamentally formed.

And would you two be willing to take a look at merger and a possible broadening of the activity to embrace this other area of my concern?

Now, I've said to them, this will give both organizations new life.

They obviously want me to solve it.

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is a little uncertain as to whether he wants to see murder.

So I've got him talking with Max Fisher and Ted Edmond, both of whom have been very active in Texas.

So I don't know just where that's going to come out at this point.

But as far as Clemson and they want, and Fister and others want, and so that's one possible.

Now the other is to do what I discussed with you earlier, and that's to start from scratch.

and the people who would be interested in supporting a citizens' coalition sort of act.

Now, I'm on this stage, Mr. President.

I've got a paper on the concept and then a paper on the steps in organization that have operated.

They're not finished, and I don't want to give them to you in front.

But really, how I see it, the alternatives I'm going to face are these.

Can I bring about an ad for a merged effort on the part of these two organizations and create something new out of them in the right direction?

Or on the street to undertake the earlier concept that I've had in mind.

And what I needed at the time did not work.

I mean, it would give you an idea of what I think you could accomplish both.

If you can take two organizations and put them together, the beauty of that is that you've got a lot of active players in there, contributors and so forth.

That's right.

We're going off in all directions.

People with good hearts, right?

Not just voluntary actions, but there are people like you and I and others who are going to work on it with the day to day.

That's right.

And we all have something.

That's right.

Right.

That's right.

Herb, bullish, and something was there.

Right.

Some of our friends are in it.

Some of our, shall we say, dandy high school leathers who are not particularly our friends.

That's right.

In the bottom.

Particularly those of me saved from evil cause.

Duh.

And at least they got out there in the country.

And I, you know, I, you know, I gave, I gave, you know, I gave, you know, I gave, you know, I gave, you know, I gave, you know, I gave, you know, I gave,

What do you do, George?

Take your organization.

This is the problem.

When we go back to the ring, we're going to take the organization line and have a trilogy.

In other words, if the urban coalition deals with the problems of the cities and so forth and so on, and the country...

Voluntary action deals with everybody.

That's right.

Then what you need is a third branch to a third entity, which you already learned about you.

You have basically a think tank.

Right.

Out here to develop thoughts as to how voluntary action would interrupt coalition's voluntary actions.

Well, that's right.

And how we'll work together in new directions and how it can affect government.

That's what I think you could have.

That way, it wouldn't be a case of yourself taking over.

uh, to, shall we say, marginal, perhaps all the way, voluntary actions, a little more than marginal, early coalition, maybe marginal as well.

And what you do is that, is to get all the new name.

That's what I do now.

Uh, I don't, I got new name, I got new name.

But, so I'm trying to call out the citizens, the coalitions, we're voluntary and the community acts.

All right, let's go.

C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-E-C-A.

Citizens Coalition for Voluntary and Community Actions, CCPCA.

Why don't you call it up there?

Why don't you just, why don't you just try to volunteer?

I'll call this for Community Actions so you can have a better time.

CCC, Citizens Coalition for Community Actions, CCCA.

Yeah.

You get a five, yeah.

That's right.

But George, when I think we need what we could use, I think you need your think tank out of the Electoral Way.

No, because otherwise you're going to leave that area in my way to the, to the counterparts and others who are using it for political purposes for mayor government and on the left.

That's right.

You would use it for...

you believe that we can get away with a bigger government?

That's exactly what I believe.

I know that.

And so I took him on to the next governor's conference.

Now, if we could have a national winner, that probably would be me and the administration, whoever's here.

And the warrior's anger, she's not going to have an anger to live with her.

This would be a very important point.

One of all that I think, I would add to your deal, is Rockefeller.

You know, now, Rockefeller had a long talk with me at Camp Dixie.

I've slowed him down.

He's got loads of money on this whole business of

You explained it, John.

You knew what the word was.

He did.

Oh, we talked a little about it.

John did explain it.

The problem is, Nelson, you know, he's like a wild card.

He'll run off there on his own.

And yet, I think you could work him around into this somewhere.

The think tank would be attractive to him.

And you might very well make your first contract.

Yeah.

I mean, the sense of getting some money is that he's got to have it.

He's got to have it here in the state that we are.

We're going to want some of it from right here.

And I can tell you, too, we'll help you on this.

Right now, I see.

It's always the same direction.

It's leading to a new organization.

It'd be very hard.

Not hard, but more difficult for us to work.

But we will help the old urban coalition.

We don't want voluntary action.

I think the idea of the triple play.

Triple play.

just has it has more uh not to it but but don't let the old just one more don't i have better confidence in the people we've got military action but something around the earth don't let them around i understand i understand they want you as a frank man

I can't deal with their ideas.

Some of their ideas are good.

They won't work.

Well, I know they won't work.

Whatever you do, you want to remember the people now.

This is true of anybody going out on the cabin.

I told, uh, I told all the ladies, and I said, uh, Gallagher's is interested in other things.

I said, now, now, we'll be right to the center.

Because, Mr. Kirk, all of the property guys and people in the business talk to me before you make a contract.

Because when you go out on the cabin...

after a re-election, your health and property.

You know what I mean?

One question.

But they want you for your, they want you because they know you have it.

That's right.

And they want you because of your expertise in arresting.

And the point is, and I'm saying to you, don't let these people use you.

You need to use that.

That's my only advice.

I appreciate it.

I should be able to get it on you.

I appreciate it.

I better have a travel experience.

First of all, see, when I was, I went through this church in 1968.

Right.

I came out of office crying.

Whether it's for business or the Boys Clubs of America, which I think, as you've seen, they have a great...

They want me, but they want me for my beautiful face.

They want me.

That's exactly right.

No questions about it.

You don't have to.

That's exactly right.

I appreciate it.

Let me explain one limitation.

of the applies to this third area.

And that's what you described as a think tank.

I can see all of this as a think tank and a communication tank where people create a greater understanding on the part of people of what issues need attention and how they can deal with the fact that as you move, if you move beyond that into direct art to bring about

the result, then you lose tax exemption.

But what you do, then you have to, then you have to .

Now, I'll tell you what we did.

I'll tell you what we did in the school .

Well, but you can do this.

Here's what happened in connection to our school state in Detroit.

We had one organization that first did the thinking and the development of alternatives, the facts and alternatives, and recommendation.

And then we created another organization much prior to go out and get the thing done.

So that was separate, you see.

One reason John Gardner had to split off from the European Coalition was because they couldn't permit him to undertake to get action on these recommendations without losing tax exemption status.

So he had to create, he had to spin off companies.

Now, the limitation in the trilogy approach is, and this will apply even if you only took this single approach of undertaking the deal with these issues, is that you don't have tax exemption status.

Or maybe insulated to the units.

From the 3rd.

That's awesome.

Let the 3rd be, or let's say, not be Santa Fe.

I've got another name.

I've thought of it.

I think maybe the name will be in there.

Because I'm a little confused.

I think this has a nice little connotation.

You can call it the NCCCA, you know?

That's what it is for us.

Well, you know, it's got the...

And if it were for sports, I could have a nice few in CCCA.

Oh, that's not a huge job.

And 3CA.

And 3CA, I think it's good.

Well, I'm sure they're experts to work right for it.

Then you've got the National Voluntary Action thing, and you've got the National Citizens thing.

And the rest, no.

And we can do it at home.

We will do.

I cannot do anything but follow that crystal.

I think we can do something.

John can have a chart, because I mean, he's just for other purposes.

He's just for other purposes.

That's okay.

Good man.

And we can do something for the buyers.

He's a good one to bring in.

And he used to sit in the car.

Do you like him?

I like him.

My wife and my wife once.

Well, I had the other one who was in the car.

And I said, you know, I'll help you with that.

And that's the way it worked.

One other comment with respect to success, Mr. President.

And actually this whole area of our activities.

i don't want to plan in connection with executive reorganizations but i could visualize a genuine community development department that embraced not only what was in the statutory recommendations last time but also brought in a environment to epa and and the land use

Yeah, yeah.

So you get the city planning.

That's right.

And for the war, I don't know what they, I don't know to what extent this is recognized, but to some extent we've been a safety valve for the minority groups during the last four years.

They've kind of looked at us.

Now, I know that you can't, we can't solve this racial problem head on.

It's got to be flamed.

and even Johnson and all the money to solve the racial problem.

He's a city worker.

That's right.

He's got an inkling.

He can't be dealt with correctly.

But on the other hand, I think you need someone who, in the picture,

who the minority groups feel is sympathetic, is kind of safe.

What do you think it would look like?

None.

The Secretary has been such a person.

None in the first four years.

None of the black people.

You've got some very good, uh... We did bring, we were smart to bring two blacks.

You got two?

Now, uh, Leo's dead.

No, his son's already taken another job.

And, uh, and Jackson is not, not a man I'd put in charge of any department.

He's a very bright fellow.

Would you leave him as my sister?

Yeah, I'll make him move into another department.

Could be.

How would that be?

I think he's up there already.

And he could work like hell if he knew of the campaign.

I'll just say that.

John, in order to get... We're trying to sort of move around so they get a new look and don't become...

I like Jackson.

I think he's a real goer.

But the point is, being white, it's hard to find the blackness this time.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, well...

Sam's problem is that he works too hard for the Blacks.

He's not quite able to be objective.

And he's always in there working for the Blacks, but he's not a good man to have teamed up with somebody who's got some balance.

Because he has rapport with the Blacks.

That's right.

And he won't say it unless he has something at least as equivalent to what he's doing now.

Well, he's a general assistant secretary and he's been involved in a lot of our policy decisions.

And I'll tell you, he's been a great help because really, white men just don't have insight into some of these problems the minorities have.

And it's been a great help to be confronted by Jackson.

the consideration that they are committed with.

You don't think he could be the undersecretary?

Well, he could, depending on how you structure it.

If I were going to structure the department today, and I was telling John, I'm just in the process of getting the structure the way it ought to be.

Because we have decentralized.

We've organized on a functional basis.

We've decentralized.

But now, what we need to do

is to reduce our assistant secretaries to a staff function.

And we need to centralize the line function in the secretary's office.

Now, if Jackson was the undersecretary working with the staff to put together policy recommendations for the secretary, and you had another undersecretary who was the line undersecretary, then it would work.

Because then you could give him undersecretary status.

But I wouldn't put him in a position where he's going to have the line responsibility.

As I explained to you, John, I think that's needed in our department, in the opening department, for everyone intervening.

I think you ought to take a look at it in connection with the structure of the whole domestic area.

We do have to talk with George about this certainly.

I'd like for George's evaluation of some of the blacks.

We've got, as I told you, that's where it's hard to find Bob Brown's lady, for example.

You've got this old scholar who's fine.

That's just, you know, it's all symbolism.

And you've got Sam Peterson over at Tracy.

That's good.

He's a dark man.

One thing I thought we'd do also is, as soon as we know who Secretary Success is going to be, he and I would sit down with a new phone.

And Joe and John have talked through some of these ideas.

And so he gets a real sense of how you see it and how we see it over here in terms of the future of the organization and what you're working on.

which I think you should not discuss until you get involved.

And George and I may not be tailed, at least, of the reorganization that we're going to accomplish to the extent that we can, George.

The recommendations by

The president's feeling with the cabinet, with the cabinet people, has to say, which without, of course, comparing at all or interfering at all with the cabinet's relations with the Congress, it's a little hard to pull off.

But after all, we can't do that.

And I think it's going to be very helpful if, when this is done, that George says some good things about it, because it's starting to go near the agency, frankly, and the lead position.

It has to be.

It's very difficult.

You really come down to it.

You can't go to transportation.

I mean, you just can't.

No.

And I'm speaking out of the city province.

Right.

You can't go to transportation.

So it's kind of the AGD.

So that's a delicate problem, you know.

So anyway, John, I'll tell you about it.

You probably have in mind.

This is Roy Esh, one of the boys I've worked on for the last two or three months.

And that's about some ingenious ideas.

Good.

As I had her back, your idea of assistant secretaries being that...

is, I think, part of the plan, as I understand it.

And it kind of has led the way on this, and also on regionalization.

I'm trying to accomplish as much of that same kind of change in the other departments.

Yeah, we can.

It's going to take a while, but it's going to work out where you are right now.

But we get together with Roy, and I think he can benefit from it.

Mr. President, I don't know what you do, what your plans are with respect to any of the additions to my future.

But let me say, let's plant the way we want.

Well, I mean, you see, you may have, what we have, what we want to do is we've got to get, I've got to get the new people announced, right, so that they can get nominated, right?

You know what I mean?

And so we can put their names in January 3rd, right now.

On the other hand, you felt that you wanted your announcement handled separately.

Right.

And so it's up to you, but time is a problem here because we're thinking in terms of middle of next week, as I understand it, or we'd like to get the thing wrapped up, you see.

But what if I did this, Mr. President?

What if I have a press conference sometime next week?

and released my letter of resignation.

And it simply indicated that I'm exploring with, I mean, three areas.

We're there for Blue Mountain, but at an early date, I expect to be able to indicate in specific terms

uh, the way in which I expect to be effective in those three areas.

All right.

All right, let it go at that, at that point.

All right.

I see.

And if I, then I'm going to continue.

I will continue.

I will continue until the President, uh, the President has asked me to continue.

Until your successful access to the United States.

And, uh, my return letter should be, uh, it should be at the same time as the White House.

Good.

No, but I think in terms of a date, George, maybe you ought to do it on Tuesday then.

On Tuesday, I got to be in, but that's, my old friend asked me to be on the municipal league on Tuesday, uh, in Minneapolis.

Uh, and he had a press conference there.

Well, that's not a place for it.

He doesn't want to go there.

If you got money to do it, I can do it with you.

We'll have the letter for you first thing in the morning.

Great.

Yeah.

Great.

You get the letter.

Yes, we have your letter, sir.

Good.

All right.

Thank you very much.

I want to say this to you.

I admire the start of your take on the second term.

And look, you're determined on the way.

And I'm sure some people felt that while your office was all shaken up.

But that's illegal.

We're not gonna, we're not gonna, we're trying to treat everybody well, you know.

I mean, this is a cabinet.

I mean, a cabinet.

So, with everybody in the cabinet, believe me, either some will leave.

If you do, nowhere.

Others want to stay in the government.

But everybody is, either for me, with the exception of Jill, who has to stay, or I, who's shaking, she's watching there, and Frederick's running.

But, everybody is leaving.

Or going to another post.

No, that's not right.

But my point is,

If I were to guess, I think that one of the mistakes every second term president mentioned, I studied them all, and Eisenhower came in charge.

He went on in the second term with the same thinking as the first after winning a career victory, and from then it was down to zero.

You know, I was a little tired in the second term.

Thank you.