{"conversationCode":"817-017","tapeNumber":817,"conversationNumber":17,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-817-017","startDateTime":"1972-11-30T18:11:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-11-30T18:19:00.000Z","startDate":"30-Nov-1972","startTime":"1:11 PM","endDate":"30-Nov-1972","endTime":"1:19 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.; Bull, Stephen B.; Butterfield, Alexander P.; Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On November 30, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Stephen B. Bull, Alexander P. Butterfield, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:11 pm to 1:19 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 817-017 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":"5.2","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part II","chronReleaseDate":"2-Dec-2008","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 817-17\n\nDate: November 30, 1972\nTime: 1:11 pm - 1:19 pm\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\n       Ziegler’s press conference\n              -The President’s recent meeting with Duc\n                      -Tone\n                                                     -Compared to the President’s meeting with\n                               Duc, November 29, 1972\n              -State Department reorganization announcement\n                      -The President’s recommendations\n                              -United Press International [UPI]\n                              -Washington Star\n                                     -George Sherman\n                              -American Broadcasting Corporation [ABC]\n                              -Quotes from the President\n                                     -Stenographers, file clerks\n                                     -Senior officials\n                                     -Foreign Service Officers [FSO]\n                                     -Embassies\n                      -William P. Rogers\n\nZiegler left and Stephen B. Bull entered at 1:12 pm.\n\n       The President's schedule\n              -Trip to Florida\n\f                      -78-                     78\n\n                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                              Conversation No. 817-17 (cont’d)\n\n                       -Departure time\n\nAlexander P. Butterfield entered and Bull left at an unknown time after 1:12 pm.\n\n       Coat\n\n       Items for the President’s signature\n              -George P. Shultz\n\n       Briefcase\n\nHenry A. Kissinger entered at 1:12 pm.\n\n       Vietnam negotiations\n             -The President’s meeting [with Nguyen Phu Duc and Tran Kim Phuong]\n                    -Effect\n                    -Authority\n\nBull entered at 1:12 pm.\n\n       The President’s schedule\n              -Shultz\n              -Meeting with John B. Connally\n\nButterfield and Bull left at 1:13 pm.\n\n       Vietnam negotiations\n             -Settlement agreement\n                    -Nguyen Van Thieu’s position\n                            -Recent GVN cable\n                            -The President’s meeting with Duc\n                                    -US-Government of Vietnam [GVN] relations\n                            -Possible delay\n                    -Thieu’s rejection\n                            -Bilateral deal\n                                                                  -US mining, bombing\n                                     cessation, withdrawal for prisoners of War [POWs]\n                                    -Termination of US military and economic aid\n                                            -South Vietnamese defeat, North Vietnamese defeat\n                            -Congressional relations\n\f                     -79-                      79\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                              Conversation No. 817-17 (cont’d)\n\n                                     -The President’s meeting with Joint Chiefs of Staff [JCS]\n                                     -Senate vote\n                     -The President's achievements\n                                                     -The President’s conversation with Leonid I.\n                              Brezhnev [at US-Soviet Union Summit]\n                                                                    -Lack of insistence on\n                                      withdrawal of North Vietnamese troops from South\n                                      Vietnam\n                                     -Terms at that time\n                                            -Election in South Vietnam\n                                                     -Thieu’s resignation\n              -North Vietnamese message\n                     -Meaning\n                             -Cancellation of meeting\n                             -Alternate meeting places\n                                     -Avenue Kleber\n              -Cancellation of meeting\n                     -Breakdown of talks\n                             -Briefing\n              -Settlement agreement\n                     -Victory\n                             -Briefing\n              -The President’s meeting with Kissinger [in Key Biscayne]\n              -The President’s possible meeting with Thieu\n                     -Purpose\n                             -Settlement agreement\n                                     -Negotiations\n                                     -Assurances\n                                     -Commitment\n\nThe President and Kissinger left at 1:19 pm.","filename":["817-017.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L.","Bull, Stephen B.","Butterfield, Alexander P.","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"817-016","nextCode":"817-018","transcript":[{"start":0.32,"end":3.48,"text":"Is there any tone that I should strengthen the meeting to?"},{"start":3.5,"end":4,"text":"No, same as yesterday."},{"start":4.02,"end":4.78,"text":"Same as yesterday?"},{"start":4.84,"end":4.98,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":5.64,"end":6.1,"text":"Which is a?"},{"start":6.16,"end":6.24,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":6.96,"end":7.29,"text":"Not a?"},{"start":7.49,"end":8.01,"text":"Sorry."},{"start":8.53,"end":8.95,"text":"Okay, fine."},{"start":8.97,"end":9.69,"text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":10.23,"end":11.63,"text":"So I'll just add, I was thinking that."},{"start":11.65,"end":13.35,"text":"You mentioned the State Department."},{"start":13.59,"end":13.81,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":13.83,"end":15.35,"text":"All right, good."},{"start":15.65,"end":19.69,"text":"What did you get in those things that I cut across?"},{"start":19.77,"end":21.85,"text":"Words and flavors."},{"start":21.89,"end":22.27,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":22.43,"end":27.5,"text":"Not in the course of the briefing, but I've been to UPI."},{"start":27.6,"end":29.58,"text":"I've been shown the star."},{"start":32.87,"end":36.19,"text":"Then I'll be asking on it tomorrow."},{"start":36.21,"end":38.55,"text":"But I'm just very sure he used the words that I used."},{"start":38.57,"end":38.83,"text":"I didn't."},{"start":38.85,"end":39.57,"text":"I used everything that I used."},{"start":39.59,"end":42.15,"text":"I used the stenographer to add a part of it."},{"start":42.21,"end":48.93,"text":"He used a tall man on top of the job, top of the ground, trying to make a reflection on the scene."},{"start":48.97,"end":51.88,"text":"He used the light to help him shake up in the morning service."},{"start":51.9,"end":54.99,"text":"He flies to the embassies across the land and gets to the country."},{"start":55.26,"end":59.46,"text":"He's the one who ends up being the spokesman for the country."},{"start":59.5,"end":60.76,"text":"He's a useful person."},{"start":60.8,"end":61.46,"text":"That's a good story."},{"start":63.45,"end":74.62,"text":"I made a point that this would be carried out by the ."},{"start":74.7,"end":74.9,"text":"Okay."},{"start":76.94,"end":77.58,"text":"We'll go now."},{"start":77.94,"end":84.21,"text":"All right, sir."},{"start":84.35,"end":86.09,"text":"What's that?"},{"start":86.13,"end":87.55,"text":"You already got the sign."},{"start":87.57,"end":89.45,"text":"I got the sign."},{"start":95.12,"end":95.4,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":95.42,"end":95.82,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":95.84,"end":96.06,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":134.3,"end":137.31,"text":"President, I think you've done anything that human language can do."},{"start":137.32,"end":138.57,"text":"I think you've shaped them."},{"start":139.11,"end":142.61,"text":"Well, you know, shaped them in my view."},{"start":143.57,"end":145.79,"text":"Because they don't have the qualities I do."},{"start":145.81,"end":151.47,"text":"I'd like to say that as an institutionalist, I would say."},{"start":152.71,"end":153.09,"text":"Yes, Kelly."},{"start":153.11,"end":155.05,"text":"Sorry, five minutes."},{"start":155.59,"end":157.73,"text":"I've got to five minutes more."},{"start":157.75,"end":159.27,"text":"All right, Scott."},{"start":159.33,"end":159.65,"text":"Five minutes."},{"start":159.71,"end":161.07,"text":"When you're ready to say it, I'll say it."},{"start":163.03,"end":163.25,"text":"Yes, Lord."},{"start":163.27,"end":163.43,"text":"4 o'clock."},{"start":163.45,"end":164.71,"text":"We've been talking about it all night."},{"start":164.73,"end":166.07,"text":"I had a different experience than that guy yesterday."},{"start":166.09,"end":166.75,"text":"I think he did a very good job."},{"start":166.77,"end":167.33,"text":"He had a whole list of that."},{"start":167.35,"end":168.45,"text":"He was able to offer churches to be more supportive."},{"start":193.66,"end":194.62,"text":"I'm going to break this alliance."},{"start":194.74,"end":194.96,"text":"That's that."},{"start":195.02,"end":197.16,"text":"No, but I think they're going to do it to each other over the next week."},{"start":197.2,"end":198.66,"text":"The funny thing is, I don't know what the hell you can do."},{"start":198.69,"end":200.67,"text":"You can't go and do your goddamn thing with an R-15 so they don't go along and make sense."},{"start":200.69,"end":201.03,"text":"Stop the line."},{"start":201.05,"end":201.47,"text":"Stop the bombing."},{"start":201.49,"end":202.19,"text":"Get our prisoners right."},{"start":202.21,"end":202.87,"text":"There's a wrong decision."},{"start":228.52,"end":229.62,"text":"Number seven, they'll demand military aid."},{"start":229.64,"end":230,"text":"Oh, for that?"},{"start":230.04,"end":231.32,"text":"They demand that we stop military aid."},{"start":231.34,"end":232.28,"text":"Oh, you don't need to worry about it."},{"start":232.3,"end":233.58,"text":"I got you the advice, and that's going to be cut again."},{"start":233.6,"end":234.04,"text":"We'll say yes, fine."},{"start":234.06,"end":234.72,"text":"It's exactly what we need to do."},{"start":234.74,"end":235.68,"text":"And they'll do it, and then we can be quick."},{"start":235.7,"end":236.02,"text":"Of course it is."},{"start":236.04,"end":236.44,"text":"I understand that."},{"start":236.46,"end":237.84,"text":"That's what these guys and some of the other guys are doing."},{"start":237.86,"end":238.56,"text":"Yes, we'll take it from there."},{"start":258.9,"end":259.9,"text":"I mean, we're not finished."},{"start":259.96,"end":261.06,"text":"The Congress isn't facing this deal."},{"start":261.12,"end":263,"text":"If you strike at this point, it doesn't change anything."},{"start":263.02,"end":264.9,"text":"If the Congress sees that, it'll be 98 votes to 2 in the Senate, or 98 votes to 3."},{"start":264.94,"end":265.46,"text":"This is not a deal."},{"start":265.48,"end":266.72,"text":"They've got themselves into a position that's insane."},{"start":266.76,"end":267.74,"text":"That's what they've achieved with this."},{"start":288.81,"end":294.1,"text":"Now, Mr. President, if I compare what you asked us to threaten this summer with what you achieved, you are a hell of a lot better off than what you chose to threaten."},{"start":294.16,"end":294.38,"text":"You won."},{"start":294.42,"end":296.64,"text":"We achieved more than we ever have than you wanted."},{"start":296.68,"end":297.22,"text":"Together."},{"start":297.28,"end":301.44,"text":"When you talked to the President, you didn't say you wanted to withdraw the proceeds from the project."},{"start":314.83,"end":319,"text":"At that time, we were willing to throw in an election as a recognition of truth."},{"start":334.43,"end":336.77,"text":"Do you think that you think the message from the NARC is going to knock off the meeting?"},{"start":336.79,"end":340.51,"text":"I think the message from the NARC, I had noticed that I didn't want to meet in their place anymore, but that I wanted to also actually be one of ours and one of theirs."},{"start":340.53,"end":341.63,"text":"Or meet in a different place, like after we split bands."},{"start":341.65,"end":342.45,"text":"I think it would work that way."},{"start":342.47,"end":344.63,"text":"If they want to knock off the meeting, just to figure it out, knock off the meeting then."},{"start":344.71,"end":345.65,"text":"It's made a big decision to keep going."},{"start":364.6,"end":365.5,"text":"I don't think they do though."},{"start":365.52,"end":366.1,"text":"I do know about it."},{"start":366.12,"end":366.96,"text":"They knock off the meeting."},{"start":366.98,"end":367.76,"text":"They say they blow the debriefing."},{"start":367.78,"end":368.48,"text":"They back off the debriefing."},{"start":368.5,"end":368.88,"text":"They won't do it."},{"start":368.9,"end":369.56,"text":"They need to have the brief."},{"start":369.6,"end":370.14,"text":"They have to prepare."},{"start":370.16,"end":370.82,"text":"They need to have the brief."},{"start":370.86,"end":371.5,"text":"So this is what they do."},{"start":371.52,"end":371.84,"text":"They back off."},{"start":371.86,"end":373.58,"text":"The tragedy is, Mr. President, we could agree to this agreement."},{"start":373.6,"end":374.16,"text":"It's a tremendous history."},{"start":374.18,"end":374.76,"text":"It doesn't do it inside out."},{"start":374.78,"end":375.5,"text":"I don't know if they come along."},{"start":396.39,"end":397.88,"text":"I think it's a good idea."},{"start":397.94,"end":399.39,"text":"I think it's a good idea."},{"start":399.57,"end":399.86,"text":"I agree."},{"start":399.88,"end":401.82,"text":"Something that happens."},{"start":401.9,"end":402.44,"text":"I'm sure."},{"start":402.5,"end":405.92,"text":"Also, it gives you a chance to make a commitment to the"}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and key staff members met to discuss communication strategy and the status of ongoing peace negotiations. The discussion focused on managing public perception regarding diplomatic briefings and the potential implications of Congressional opposition to current foreign policy goals. Kissinger affirmed that the administration had achieved more success than initially projected, while the group considered the risks and tactical necessity of continuing high-level diplomatic meetings.","topics":["Vietnam peace negotiations","Foreign policy strategy","Public relations","Congressional relations","Diplomacy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-08T00:26:25.412Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-peace-negotiations","foreign-policy-strategy","public-relations","congressional-relations","diplomacy"],"audioDurationSec":428,"audioFiles":[{"file":"817-017.mp3","bytes":10268607,"durationSec":427.72,"bitrate":192062,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:58.478Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:39.383Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/817-017.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/817-017","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/817/conversation-817-017","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}