Conversation 819-002

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I mean, that's how he gets his good price.

Sure, Spencer, we were supposed to.

I guess it's helpful to him.

I've been out there really for 12 years.

Goddamn, I'll never forgive myself in 66, coming to Maryland, sitting out there with a very wealthy people with just a small group of just reassured, I didn't know a bitch, reassured me to be a young man, and I feel like Dr. Jordan and so forth, at any rate, I'm out and about.

But then last year, I never heard him express

Kissing everyone over to the fundraiser.

Oh, I almost killed history.

Almost blacked me.

That's the first.

He did two fundraisers.

That's the first.

I told him if he'd ever been to another fundraiser, he'd probably go out of that office.

I wonder if he didn't do it.

Imagine the reaction among the rangers.

Particularly the five.

Even Percy, they didn't say why he didn't do it.

What happened was, I'll tell you what happened was, he was asked to do that with my daughter.

I said, we don't need his boat.

Where was it?

If he won't do it again, we will never do it again.

Oh, he knows, Henry learned.

You know, I was thinking about this field.

Let me suggest that we keep the time open, and I want to do this frame in the fall.

But you mentioned

I don't know whether it's better to get your trip off fairly soon, or whether it's best to do that, or whether it's just best for us to wait and see when the best thing, I think, comes up.

Maybe the best thing.

Well, what I was going to say in the field of Vietnam, we don't know, you know, what the Vietnam thing is now.

Very interesting.

I'm not sure it'd be a good thing for you to do.

And I'm gonna, you know,

What I meant is, let us suppose we make a deal.

Let us suppose we make a deal, and I don't want it.

I could literally stay away from what it is.

And then, within 60 days, they're all home, all of them, the living ones.

I think the enders will very shortly receive what I meant.

where you don't have to worry about the Jews, so you don't have to get into the Mideast.

You don't have to worry about the Catholics.

You don't have to go see a Pope.

The real relief for the

Is there any interest in Kansas City in Latin America?

Is there any interest in Japan or anything like that?

That's what I mean.

There's interest in Japan because they, you know, a great purchase of our meat.

There's their trade in Kansas City area with Japan.

There's all that growing interest in Japan, Russia, China.

Japan has been our biggest cash customer, I mean, for example.

Well, let me keep it open in terms of

My first view would be that you ought to go to the place where we were your folks.

And China, nobody knows who they'll let in and out.

Russia, no problem.

The point is that the opportunity to move in that area is a hell of a lot to talk

And also there might be a crisis.

And there might be something, there might be an area of the world like, as I said, America or something like that.

It might develop.

And it did, for example, in Vietnam.

Something else might develop down in that part of the world.

I just wouldn't lay it.

I personally wouldn't let it require you.

I think I'd rather have you just wait, hold off, leaving the option for the spring or the fall.

For the time it appears to be the best kind of an event.

And we'll just pick an event.

And all you go on an event.

So it doesn't look as if you're just taking a trip.

But we'll pick a good event.

There's always something, unfortunately.

Always something.

And we'll pick a good one.

My best advice to you would be to go to Russia.

Russia is an increasingly huge market for America.

I'd have in mind Russia.

That I can work out very easily.

And there you should go in the summer, June, July, August.

There's an area that, strictly from a selfish standpoint, from a Republican standpoint, since we don't control community medicine, the area is handicapped.

I've lost a kidney, I've had a total paralysis, I'm walking again, and all that stuff.

So I get into all these different groups.

And of course they get all the initiatives on it.

It's either Magnuson or some of you

takes the ball, and Kennedy's always for the kidney machines or the cancer.

And so we always look like we're the second best.

So I run around the country speaking to a lot of handicapped groups, different kinds.

We're good guys, too.

We want to do things.

We have a heart, and we're passionate.

But I don't know.

Of course, there are

The thing is, they're organized in each state, and they're very active in each state, and they vote.

There ought to be something they did.

We need persons to reach those people.

And we've been very active in the veterans thing, so I mean, I always think about veterans, Hollywood, the rest of it.

There is a committee on handicaps, so the labor committee.

Right, the labor committee does that.

That's a great, really good question, the handicaps.

The architectural barriers.

for the betterment of the benefits.

That's what you do.

Why don't you sit down with the experts, with the H-70 people, the laborers.

Get yourself a goddamn good bill.

I mean, you know, it relates to all this.

You introduce it, we'll push it.

We'll make it the bill of the bill.

Whereas Congress and so forth, you know what I mean?

I don't know.

I'm not sure of the intent.

It covers the whole land.

Because it touches the heartstrings of everybody.

It touches the depth.

And we see them here all the time.

The family, the heart family, that's a lot of people.

The nice thing that there's, once you get the dole bill, the dole bill on something or other, not just that.

I've been trying for three years to get ACW to approve the dole bill.

information center where a handicapped person could go to one source of information and find out what the college benefits.

We're talking less than a million dollars.

That's a good idea.

That's something we can do.

We're getting visibility.

Okay, but that's something we can hammer up right now under the new policy.

Check with, let's see with Earl and Sean.

See whether we can do it through that voluntary center.

Do it out of some sort of special purpose.

We're talking about a million dollars.

That's right.

Right, right, right.

And you say that you put it in for three years?

Yeah.

All right.

That's off the bill.

That's going to run away.

That's going to run away, though.

You're going to get your bill now.

Well, I'm going to put it in the first day.

I'm going to put it in the first day.

We had a meeting.

I had a meeting with all these different agencies in the White House that represent hearts, kidneys, and you know, they all have their own constituency.

They're all, they don't want to communicate with each other, which is really terrible.

Well, they're better because they're better than us.

I'm just like government.

Nobody wants to yield anything.

Let me talk to John.

Whoever's going to handle this.

Get together with you and work out a little bit.

I don't think we're going to get that right.

We could add something to it.

This would let it be your bill.

See, I don't give a damn.

But I'm saying we could.

I think that we've been able to generate a lot of support from all the way around the country just through it.

Well, you see, it's a first, but now the thing, too, is that we've got a huge mailing list.

You can get your bill, and you can mail all these clocks that you're supposed to be for.

I've got Charlie Bennett on the House, and he's a good Democrat.

Charlie Bennett, of course.

Yeah, and he's been helping on that side.

He gets it passed, and I can't get it passed because the H.E.W.

won't approve it.

I don't know if it helps us to look like we care about people in trouble for a change.

Let's go to Iraq.

It's done.

But figure out, my present feeling is it's probably Russia this summer.

France is too cold.

And it falls too hot to get cold weather.

You know, we get warm weather.

But you'll have it all the time.

Go back to the old.

But if something develops in Asia, go there.

Not in Indiana.

Don't go again.

Nice trip.

66, I went to Bob Polk.

He wears, I don't know.

He wears dark.

Polk?

Uh-huh.

Ship was 61 in the U-10.

It's quite a guy.

And he doesn't do no jumping with Polk.

It's work, which is.

as it should be.

I think it's fantastic.

I wish I could use it.

In 1967, he was charged up and down in the fields.

Like Oliver Walker, the last, you know, was charged up and down in the fields.

Well, I'm talking about the bombing that he gave up.

I went to New York and talked to Bush.

I'm proud of it.

This press doesn't know about it, which I think is good.

I can tell them that now.

Very good.

Congratulations.

And I'm talking to the telephone lady speaking yesterday in Great Lake.

I'm talking to the telephone.

I was here.

He was in New York.

We had a phone conversation.

And I told him I would call him, but either we would call him during the session or call him afterward because he doesn't know how to talk.

So I talked to him briefly this morning, too.

He said he had talked to you and he called down just to see what was the plan here.

And he seemed to feel that was the best thing, if, you know, call from the meeting here and say.

Well, if I came in and made the recommendation to the president, I'd rather be around and busy with George Bush.

And I think if he could do it, we'd have some choice.

And of course, it's up to the Army to see.

Do you have any, do you count on the opposition?

Not really, though.

I was just reading.

I can't believe it.

I think it didn't want to build on the job.

I think it was tough enough.

A lot of stuff you get, you know, you're going to get that no matter what you do with the job.

But now I'm speaking, you haven't gotten the opposition.

We have two Texans in there, Strauss and the Democrats.

It's kind of the only objection to Bush doing that in the game.

I don't think that would be a factor one way or the other.

I don't know what Conley's going to do.

I don't think he does, but...

It would depend more on the Democratic Party than on the Republican Party.

No, and he likes George.

He's very close to George, so there's no personal...

But before that, Connolly was very close to Bush, urged him to run for governor rather than the Senate, and made the point that he had to support the other guy for Senate, but he would have supported him for governor.

We voted him in, mail Eric around, knowing he wouldn't do it, of course.

I think George is wondering what he does.

And we talked yesterday about saying

First of all, the timing of it is important.

To me, it's important to George Bush.

And because of things coming up there in January, right, and because of that, I'm going to do it on the 19th of January.

His feeling is that there ought to be somebody there in January on what they've got coming up.

There's always somebody coming up there.

I mean, the best thing to do would be to have, in order, so they've got an all-league, and I'm sorry to talk about it, it would seem to me that you should initially first get it, you should say, everybody knows that we're meeting this morning, this is the latest, this is all we're going to do.

You see all the requests from the president that you have?

very senior to the Republican Party across the country.

Do you recognize the fact that

And the president smiled and said, it's fine, it's a good thing, but I said, I said, he, I said, I want it.

He said, he likes to take the pressure and he'll have it.

I said, I don't mean any of that.

Congressman Sutton, you know, that's what she was, of course, very reluctant to leave.

Well, this is a very great challenge, and she was talking to him, the president was talking to him, and he agreed to serve him, and he will elect her.

yeah well until the end of the session actually say that what we'd like to do

until they say about the transition, they'll stay there until the successor is... We hope it works out.

Yeah, but we hope that we work out that after the committee meeting, we take over full-time.

They know, though, because Bob should stay as chairman, too.

They know, though.

At that point, that's the word, gendarmerie.

So I said gendarmerie.

It would be an honor, but he'll stay.

The majority will sit down, of course, and ask questions.

Well, the president didn't discuss his successor at this point, but obviously that's a matter of history.

It's forever, but we will, I think, it will be worked out so that we can work the transition.

That successor, his successor, we worked out that he will stay in office, true, inaugural, and after the inaugural, he will assist us.

Well, again, in every possible sense, Mr. Chairman, and then, of course, be helpful in advising in what you can predict.

And I think you might say, looking over the election, I think you can actually say you're very proud of it.

In fact, we have such a big show of management in the field of policy and discipline.

We've got local levels of election.

I think the public, the Congress, the Senators, the government,

Is it all right to say that, uh, uh, that we haven't been discussing Bush?

We've been talking so far, I guess.

Yeah.

Uh, but I, but I did go to New York to visit him.

Right.

Is that a choice of gesture?

You just told me to go out and do a suggestion here and there.

Yeah, okay, why don't you just say it?

If the book, the name of Bush came up.

I'd like to stay at the U.N. because I had, as a matter of fact, I had approached him already.

My office told me about that.

And I said, very creature.

He said, no, I've never stayed at the U.N. And I said, I guess, I think he wants to stay at the U.N.

I said, well, the other guy, he, well, he had a crack at it.

He said, so now I'm going to crack on him, too, you know.

And I, so I did, too.

I called you, called you, said you could go to New York.

I said, is there going to be some of the press?

And I said, I don't know.

He said, if I tell him we discussed Bush, and I said that we had already discussed him, if they said that, if they don't tell what positions, they had a high position in the Treasury Department, he said, where he has an interest because of Mr. Bush's brand name.

But he had not indicated an interest in that there.

And I said, however, if there was such broad party support for him, then it was worth it going to talk to him about it.

I think the fact that they're there after a meeting, and they don't know about it, I'm going to spend about an hour and a half.

Right.

It's sort of the intervening.

You're going to have a talk.

You're going to say that, and you're going to have your talk.

And you've raised this question, you know, George, and the president, I say that you talk for him, the president talks for him, others within the party, and finally, we now have this agreement that he will go.

but i thought that when we've got a sharp talk here i'll get him on the phone after 60 we're sitting with bob gold and he's going to make this announcement we're going to cross the room let us know whether you're going to be a spirit carrier who's going to be uh

It's not a good man to me.

That's a good man.

He's in the safe district.

That's the main one.

Safe district.

Good man.

Not ruthless.

And we'll go out with a new candidate.

That's what we really need.

We need to look at the candidates.

I'm sure you think so.

And I'm going to tell the press, you know, you suggested I keep.

Right.

I'm going to help with that role, too.

Wait a minute.

I'm telling you one thing.

It's very, very awful if you mention this.

Is it the oppression of the government and so forth?

You can say, well, it really was a lack of money.

I mean, it was a hell of a lot of money.

There were several investors there.

I don't know if there were others.

I don't know what you came down to.

In many instances, it's simply that politics is a business in Canada.

age and youth at the same time, just age and youth.

It's a question of candidates, candidates willing to work and to represent the feelings of their districts and states.

And what we need, we need the best problem.

And our goal, as the President says, the goal of this election is to be the best candidate.

I think you should also want to say this, and you have strongly recommended to the President, a much closer working relationship

that he would cooperate totally in that sort of search because it is just there that what makes the difference in any close race to the candidate and with the governors you know the governors and they're fussing now they want to be with you and all this stuff that's it and of course this is going to start the committee and lock it up you know it's finished

She lives up in Northern California, and she's one we've been looking after.

She's a co-chair.

I'm afraid she's young, big state.

And I did tell Georgia we've done some preliminary work on her.

I'm not going to pick who she takes, but how does she look?

Is she in the center on the right?

No, she's right in the middle, which is very attractive.

33-year-old gal.

I like attractiveness.

I did talk to John Rollins also.

I think he'd be a great finance chairman.

He said, I've got one big order from the president.

I don't want anything.

and he moves around and he gives money so they can ask for money.

He's a big lovable guy, a guy with a lot of love, a lot of push.

If I were you, in meeting the press, I would take over.

I think I'd have a, so that you write the story, but maybe I could write the very positive thing.

That you and I had discussed it and I had said that I didn't think there was much chance of getting

Already in reception for a high position in the trading department.

Try not to even watch at all, okay?

the transition situation and Bob will stay on as National Chairman through the inauguration and the first will stay on as long as the construction for the purpose of developing the transition

in the house.

My evil father's matter.

to uh, to uh, to build uh,

and we worked it out.

No, I'm sure he will.

I think what you gotta do is let them send the

Maybe it was our fault that we didn't know if he wasn't aware of it.

I don't know if he was fully aware of it.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, I still get it.

I don't know if it was carried over the wires.

He may have seen someplace.

We all understand that totally.

I really think that's the line.

Would you put a specific young person on the project?

Because I used to see two of them.

I think it's probably, you know,

at the National Park when the road was on it.

I don't believe.

I think we saw them.

And that he would have made us the king and the child of the battle of Pakistan.

in front of me, and therefore I have no capability of moving beyond them.

That's what happens.

I've been really wracking my brain, you know, how we should handle it better.

You know, go two ways.

Go toward more and more hand shakes, being nice to their bodies, trying to avoid them.

The way to go is to go to the incursion of the small crew that's going to be the incursion of the small wing crew.

Build them up, tie them in, let them bounce around.

Not with you, but with the other people around there.

You know, our other people must have some greater sense of responsibility.

But with the chance to touch base with you from time to time, you're like everybody else, fabulous and so on.

God, I got right on the way back here, I guess.

I don't know what I'm gonna say.

He's supposed to want to see me, you know what I mean?

Sure he does.

I want you to do it right now, Bob.

I'm begging you.

scenes, but I wouldn't get into anything right after them and just say, Ron, that's something that John or whoever's working with him deals with, and this is something that you should work with them.

I'm just not, I'm moving on to other things.

I'm not.

See, he is not wise enough to see that he no longer has stroke.

He no longer can blackmail me.

The key there is just kind of substantive stuff to say, Ron, I don't, you know, you ought to follow my advice.

You shouldn't be dealing with this.

Have your people handle this kind of thing, and our guys would be glad to work with them.

I was really interested to note how much, uh, how much, uh, yank around in our, more and more frankly than our Republican press there was on this, uh, Watergate thing since the election.

As Pat points out, you know, that was right after the election.

There hasn't been much recently.

Is that right?

Another, yeah, I read the whole thing.

Another thing, I think he did a hell of a good job.

It was, you know, trying to pull it all together.

You know how much work that is?

Oh, yeah.

Have you ever started a show?

Oh, it was just enormous.

I used to do that in school.

It's just having, hurrying that stuff down that way and having it all read well and so forth.

This is an enormous achievement.

I want to get the letter writer in pretty soon and give her a higher position.

I just got to, you know, I want to get a little of the things that affect me to get that better recognized.

If it doesn't get her a higher position, just get her moved to that kind of work.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

We've got people at damn high positions, and they, they misread the signal when you say you're moving into a higher position and all that.

Yeah.

What I meant is I consider the letter writing, Bob, more important than the arts.

You do very perfectly fine.

Good.

I spend a hell of a lot of time in the arts.

I want to spend less time in the arts, and I want to spend more time on other writing and the messages.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Higher priorities for you, sir.

Exactly.

We were talking about all kinds of analysis.

Oh, yeah, well, it just, the, on the, the interesting thing, we had, had a session with Dean and, or I think we were in Ireland this morning, on, on that whole thing there.

You may want to get that group in and talk about it, but, um, all three of their view is that we, that the thing,

that we should not re-escalate Watergate.

We should put out a dean report until we have to, or unless we have to.

That putting it out now makes a, gives it another story.

It's kind of interesting.

The latest development is that the subpoenas on hearing, the Hill hearings, have been retracted or withdrawn or something.

There are, they've been paid.

pulled them back, and the subpoenas on the material, which they'd ordered out, they produced nothing.

And as of now, that thing is at a nowhere position.

And Dean Scott, he reported.

Ron made the point, for instance, on that telephone story.

There wasn't a single good thing that ran in the post, you know, about the

He has never gotten a single question on it, and there's never been another gun sign out of any place else.

They have a, you know, you can gather all the money and visibility and stuff, and it's not a stronger bag.

He spent most of the weekend on that.

He said she was going out to, she and her family have had some investments in our house and restaurants around down there.

She was going out with the money for a further investment.

It was a business thing.

They have a pattern of dealing in cash.

That's the way the family is.

When they carry stuff out, they carry it in cash.

The bills are still in the hands of the Chicago police.

It will be turned over to Hunt apparently today.

Because it's obviously his money.

And we return to him.

So until then.

John doesn't know whether it's traceable money or not.

He's not particularly concerned about it.

He doesn't think it is.

I guess there's no reason necessarily.

There is this... Well, I don't know.

Here's the point.

I mean, there's no reason necessarily that we can't understand.

That's for sure.

The PR types are either...

The real problem, I suppose, we have here is whether or not you have the whole...

The whole administration, the president and so forth, they've got a certain horror of thinking about worse corruption, which is the way they want to call it.

Where I refuse to answer any questions.

And there's a lot I refuse to clear up.

You've got to get past it.

if something could just be said so that I can simply point to something in the record.

Right.

Well, I haven't, you know, I haven't doubted the question.

Well, let's say I know, you see what I mean?

I don't want to get anybody else in trouble.

If there is some, there is something to be said, they've got to watch that point very, very carefully.

About how the office works.

The problem is the people around the president.

That's the whole view they're taking.

is exactly that.

That if you take, if you reopen it, you raise, no matter what you say, you raise more questions than you answer.

And you bring the thing back up to a level of public attention.

And it's really a strategic question, not a tactical one.

It's whether you close it off better from the president by opening it one more time and trying to

or by letting time fade it away.

The latter is, in a sense, sort of unsatisfactory because it never answers it.

But the other question is, the former may be more unsatisfactory because it doesn't answer enough to clean it up either.

In other words, a half-hearted attempt to clean it up may be worse than no attempt in that it re-races it again.

Now, it's going to re-race both intentions.

When you get to the, here, the criminal trial, you see the Watergate comes up.

The thing that bothers me is still, is that the Cigretti thing and the other stuff like that tends to be tied to the Watergate, and it doesn't have anything to do with the Watergate.

And that somehow you need to separate those, but then you get into, separate it to where, where you go on the Watergate.

As far as you can go on that is to say nobody presently on the White House staff had any involvement.

We've already said that.

and reconfirmed, but nobody's asking whether anybody did at this point.

You still get the, it isn't the White House staff, it's the President's former Attorney General, the President's former Secretary of Commerce.

Where did the money come from?

Who allocated the money?

How did it?

They did, they did.

To a certain extent.

Sir, you go to Mr. Boyd.

He's coming back if you want to take us.

Go home and get it going.

I hope everybody's making a little money.

for you to know before he did that he's come in and recommended after talking to you and leaders around the country that with his campaign concept and everything that he feels that versus no interest requiring not staying on campus mainly that we need full-time care now that we've got the presidential thing out

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, the way they speculate, they got the feeling that they're hauling Bob up and they're going to cut his head off for a while.

I mean, after all, he was campaigning all over the country, traveling a half a million miles, worked his tail off.

And many they were going after now was candidates.

So I'll tell you, that's the real answer.

I looked at the average ages of our candidates as compared to theirs.

Yeah, that's right.

And he's a great guy and a marvelous coach.

And as a matter of fact, he can do us more good than the Senate now, now that he's out because his tongue is sharp.

And he'll cut that Teddy Henning to pieces.

That's right.

Oh, boy, he's going to love it, too.

He loves a good fight.

Well, with David Carrington, we do appreciate your comments.

Nonsense.

I mean, we had nothing to do with it, but I had nothing to do with it, at least for Christ's sake.

Nobody else, you know, nobody currently, nobody else can.

I know you feel good for me to sit and hang around with you, but they can't come over.

Prairie has, you know, some of the PR-type coaches.

to step down.

He said, maybe you're wrong, but why keep coming on in?

I said, I can certainly confirm it.

Well, first of all, we do have a coast office and we will have a coast office replaced when

catch him on foot.

that it would give a little quick shot of prestige and visibility it might not be a bad move he said particularly if there were anything on the african front that he could run him on then you know how about how about the peace side well that's he said the real thing is to get if hayes or somebody's making another trip getting to go so it's with my initial well i know but

Well, it can't be.

The scowling would be a mistake, damaging if it would leak.

Oh, absolutely.

But scowling can be programmed.

In other words, Al and Henry have a tendency that you can't program John, but that's a little exaggerated.

Does John know this?

Yes.

President sent his personal physician out to attend Mrs. Marcos.

He said, I wondered if you would send Dr. Takashi if you were trying to aid the over-the-top .

We're going to go with sheets now.

they're totally right

And then he and the president both agreed that the chairman did something about the party around the country in the last few weeks.

And then it was reported back to the president today that the man they both thought would be the ideal man to head the committee would be George Bush.

And that they confirmed by phone with George Bush this morning that he would be willing to accept the post.

for us to believe.

And I told you to know that before the reports got out.

figure out what that could be.

And he said I called him and told him so.

I told him I thought his remarks were ill-advised and that I felt he had gone out of his way to take a cut at me that was totally unnecessary.

And if he wants to read me out of the party, that he could call a meeting of the party and do it formally, and that would be perfectly all right.

But I also pointed out to him that if it's a sin in the Democratic Party to have voted against McGovern, then maybe they better set a whole new set of moral standards.

Express is concerned.

party, he can just go in as a manager, but he adds nothing.

He can't bring the South in.

The leader of the South in the Democratic Party is George Wallace, and the key is what Wallace does, not what Strauss does.

I think Wallace .

He says the southern governors will try to keep the Democratic Party together because it's to their interest to do so, but congressional southerners will too, for the same reason.

And he said the only thing that's

compelling motivation they can't go to a void or to a nebulous third party there's got to be some solid theoretically they'd do that in a minute someplace else but they don't practically i don't know how they can do it and he said it's going to take a move i mean

He said, in any event, the timing is not now for that.

Now, he is going to Saudi Arabia, leaving on Saturday and Friday, be there Sunday and Monday.

He would like a letter if it came.

So I have to send a message.

And he said, if you need him or want him to go to Iran for some reason, he'll do so.

You've mentioned it.

all together.

Well, he should be in a place

Somebody else.

Black Mexican.

Yeah.

uh

The woman, sure, put her in as the assistant to the dean, that's one thing.

Put her in as the legal counsel if she's not heavy enough.

The child is all that big.

It's pretty big, I'll tell you.

even though I know it's easier for us to work

I don't want any more people around here who hear Andrew Thomas.

I mean, I made the mistake of the Roger Johnson.

But you're generally speaking, so, well, we need to say, we took in Kennedy a lot.

We had to have somebody that looked like a secretary of the treasury.

He was a terrible secretary of the treasury.

On the other hand, we replaced him with Schultz.

Schultz is going to make this voluntary announcement.

He won't be working today.

It'll be a hell of a good story.

It'll be a lead story in the newspapers.

But Schultz is not an impressive man when it comes to selling the program.

I reflected on that as well.

Anyone else?

Anyone?

No?

Because you'd be very good with a gun.

and ran right down into the damn rattle.

It was just like, oh, that's just the way you're doing that thing, but that sheep.

We want the new blood.

I don't know if there's one over there.

I believe in you.

But I am concerned about this thing that you mentioned of having people who can get out around and attract attention.

take some of the load off you, and there'll be a few.

Dan will go in and out of town.

Nobody will ever know he was there.

I'm afraid the truth will be out.

This whole year is going to be a big labor year.

Close to it.

And protectionism, trade legislation, all that kind of thing.

Very big item.

So he's going to have to be tracking with us or else he's going to be out there sniping.

I don't know what they're coming for.

And someone's gonna have to go, that'll have to be done from somewhere else.

Commerce.

Well, it's commerce they got.

Right, it's supposed to be an exciting young manager type.

Or undersecretary.

Supposed to look pretty good.

But do you have a reminder or some possibilities on undersecretaries?

In fact, we may hang on.

The only other one besides what's in his way is the only other one besides Brennan who looks great.

You won't be, though, if he starts changing ATWs around.

You'll get a lot of letters.

Indeed.

The real question is whether you're dull or whether you're not.

That's not how you're going to take it.

The story is dull, and it's exciting.

Wanderer can't do that.

They're just smart.

You're all over the hood.

It's the second time, after all.

very serious problem as a captain on a certain volume.

He was heard as a spokesman, but he helped.

The captain moved.

We all moved with him, Mark, as a result.

but I wonder if he will.

What I'm talking about, John's creativity, imagination, and so forth.

I mean, you can't, you can't, I guess, with one hand, and it's all the argument that goes to conflict.

You gotta have somebody around that thinks up something.

down and out of state yards of shelter.

I'm over at the last one this evening.

It's not a tiny matter.

Come on.

We're on the Schultz wall.

Schultz is facing me, just facing me.

Peterson looked like he could not be.

in great anguish over his, of course.

What did that indicate to you, what a problem we would have in the future?

I mean, I'm going to leave you with this, but my feeling about Peterson, my feeling about Peterson was solely intuition.

I have great respect for his ability.

I thought he would be very useful in spotting and taking him on.

But I had just somewhere or other had a feeling that in terms of whether it was a leak or whether it was in terms of loyalty when the chips were down or playing the game, that he looked at Rick Peterson not after us.

And basically, he was too close to the kind of people that I don't agree with.

Do you agree with my analysis or not?

Well, I think the liberal pressure reaction is one of Steve's always been.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's very symptomatic.

Very, very interesting.

The thing I don't understand is they're using it to take a bite out of Henry, which is kind of odd.

Did you see Alsop today?

No.

Stuart Alsop has a piece in which he dopes this all out and says that Helms and Peterson going are increasing Henry's power.

No, it decreases Harvey's.

The jury is kind of a reverse spin.

Well, I don't know.

But don't you think you were right?

Yeah, I'm satisfied.

Can you find out about it?

Who had the final talk with him about?

George.

Well, on this so-called three-months mission or whatever the hell it is, this kind of stuff's going to stop, or they're going to be, you know, there are various ways I can chop that off.

Right, right.

I don't know whether George wants to talk about it.

I think George should.

He can do it as well.

What the hell is this?

Yeah.

Do you think so?

Yeah.

Jordan has to be, because Peterson isn't going to take it from anybody else.

He lost more press stories.

I just want to know if they're all prepared on this.

It's going to be very interesting.

It's going to be very important.

He's going to get down on this presidential campaign crap and all the rest.

No, sir.

Somebody's playing a strong game.

Well, they have a lot of something.

They have some good stuff.

Perfect.

One-fourth or one percent of the people probably won't tell you who Pete Peterson is.

One-fourth or one percent.

I don't worry.

As far as imagination and ginning up innovation and that kind of thing is concerned, I'm not referring to more ginning up and re-run spending.

No, that's one of the problems.

Most of them are probably going to come up in the future.

Yeah.

We're going to try and develop some of that here with part-timers.

Oh, good.

Irving Kristol and Herman Kahn and that bunch.

Van Riel and other guys that don't have him on the list.

What we hope to do is persuade these stars that they have a pipeline in here for information.

Red Freight is a conspicuous problem at the moment because he's leaking all over.

When anybody consults him about anything like this Monday announcement, that immediately becomes his speech for his next security analyst meeting or whatever he's peddled himself to.

So we have to be often conscious of it.

and made a speech, which was, in effect, virtually everything that's going to be announced here today.

Takes a little of the edge off.

Of course, nobody hears the speeches.

Well, it got printed, but it didn't get bounced around very much.

But anyway, that's one approach.

Now, the other thing we're going to have to do is, as I was just doing in there with the people from the interior, is insisting that the departments

set themselves up to generate new ideas and innovations.

The Department of Interior doesn't have any capacity to do that at the present time at all.

And so we've been going over how they're going to get themselves structured.

And that's one of the things we have to do.

And we have to be willing to listen to them when they move that kind of stuff forward.

Very smart people out there.

This comes back now to this school idea of taking the sub-cabinet, the cabinet officers, the principal appointees, and taking them off for a day or so, and pounding into them what we want them to know and think about, and indicating to them what we expect of them in the way of innovation, how we're geared up to move that kind of idea to you quickly, and so forth.

and encourage them to do this kind of stuff.

And at the same time, have somebody talk to them about the problems of leaks, and somebody else talk to them about the problems of personnel control, and so on, up and down the line.

So, well, I don't know.

We'll have to locate someplace.

I expect we'd have 100 or 150, something of that kind.

I don't think so.

I don't think we should try.

It ought to just be someplace where they're not all taking phone calls and running out to their offices and that sort of stuff.

But they have all been able to come.

An idea box we'd like to have or something.

Look, I'm only being a dead-side engineer on this.

I know what we've had to do with it.

Like I said, the most important thing to him is loyalty.

We've got oil in this country so far.

They all understand the rules of the game so far.

And I think the most important thing is to have bread.

That is why I get the hell out of the IUD and have bread for the country-covered nations.

We've got Southerners and all sorts of guys.

And a third important thing to do is to have, if they have it, maybe a little color and creativity.

They haven't helped.

We'll create it ourselves.

Usually doesn't come from Canada anyway.

And frankly, they won't be part of the Hillary Clinton Senate anyway.

And the first ring will go from the top of my bed stand to my reading stand.

Is it ready?

Yeah.

In my backyard, of course, a choice is either a territory or a swimming pool, but not both.

Well, I've been operating on him.

So I'll take care of him.

We painted him into a corner very solidly this weekend on that.

And we had Ziegler announce that he was in favor of the loosening of the trusses.

Well, there's just no room now for maneuvers.

So I think that's pretty well taken care of.

He's very good, actually, in terms of his business experience.

He's done some fantastic things in business.

But we'll see.

That's about right.

I've been operating on the premise that the single cent by the reduction of the White House tax

was a very important signal in terms of your general approach.

Oh, good.

Well, of course, that's our problem, too, but we're just assuming that the

that the guys we're sending out to the bureaucracy and the people that we're picking are going to be instrumental in that.

So the bureaucracy is at my heart of hearts.

I wonder if it's going to work.

And we're going to have a lot of pulling and hauling here for the first six months in trying to make it work.

Yeah, like before, you had a problem with the bureaucracy, and they were saying get a little hard and get him in shape.

Whitaker had a couple of guys, and he could cover that, and he could cover interior.

If it happens in labor on SOL, call the secretary and say, please, sir, if you feel like it, how about considering this?

You've got to go to the coast and tell them you've got to have a direct contact here in labor.

You've got to work it out.

You've got to vote.

And you've got to ask the secretary.

You've got to work with him directly in the White House.

There are too many eyes there.

It cannot be handled solely on labor basis.

There are labor departments and all sorts of things.

You've got to be man-powered.

And then you name each other.

See, the names, yeah, the names are, Kurt Counts.

Oh, that's Ambrose who counts.

Moving over.

Ambrose, who the secretary was, and Czar, who Malick was pushing hard for because he's the one going there.

Ambrose was the one undersecretary.

Is that right, man?

Yeah.

He used to be Brandon's lawyer or something.

I don't think he'd be all right there.

He would be if he's not in Brennan's pocket, so to speak.

How about Counts?

Not very strong.

Counts, I figure, isn't up to him.

He can get run over.

And George doesn't think well of Czar, who worked for him.

So I'd take Ambrose.

Ambrose is ambitious.

I agree with that.

Absolutely.

We caught one fish in our net.

Very gratifying.

The Assistant Attorney General for Administration is a holdover.

He's a Democrat.

Well, unfortunately, he's a Catholic, but a holdover basket.

When Mitchell came in, he was a holdover.

I'm a very reliable authority, and a lot of people, including Crowe, who have been up against it.

And in fact, Pliny says it.

Pliny submits it.

Sir?

Figure of speech.

So Mitchell couldn't get rid of it, because he's protected.

He doesn't have to resign.

He doesn't serve at your pleasure.

He's one of the career administrator guys.

But you see, these administrative assistant secretaries, we don't catch.

We don't have the right to replace.

It's their career.

They're protected.

But he turned in a resignation this time, along with everybody else, a pro forma resignation.

So we accepted it.

And he tried to renege on it.

So we had a signal in our house that with special regret you had accepted it.

Well, I think he did it in the... How do you mean?

Well, he continually frustrated.

Attempts to reorganize the Santa Cruz division down in the bowels.

Places of that kind.

What did he want to do with your car, your own?

I don't know.

Steve wants her, and I think that might be pretty good use for her.

Put her over there.

We're not going to have very many black faces in that Justice Department.

That's very high.

A lot of them tend to change when I get in the day.

Anytime you want to see her.

George Bob, you know, that's the kind of people who can get in.

She's back.

She's in New York.

She's keeping all the

Yeah, she's here.

Just now, she's in Texas.

She's calling me this morning, and I haven't had a chance to get back to her.

All right.

Invite her up.

What I'm thinking about is to see if she takes you to the problem.

And he said that he thought she might do it, that her problem is a vanity problem, that she just can't leave it away for long forever.

But Rogers didn't.

He said, I think that would be superb.

And something he was great at, he points out that the chief of protocol doesn't have to be here all the time.

He said that she could get home better than her.

It doesn't hurt him.

Got any more bugs on the lame ducks?

I've got a list of lame ducks.

And when we get to the lower slots, we'll match them up.

The one that you still have, maybe a question on this stands out, maybe above the others is Ogilvy, who has more ability than the other guys do.

And FTC.

Well, we need a chairman of the FTC, which he could do.

We need a director of the OEP, which he could do.

We need an administrator for LEAA, which he can do.

We need an administrator for GSA, which he can do.

All of those are political posts that take a guy to his .

I would think so.

I don't have any reason .

On that listed advantage, Chairman, of FTC, he would be, I think, very good.

FTC, somebody else could do that.

Yes, that certainly is.

Anybody that's pro-business.

I think the LEAA is looking good.

And he's expecting, of course, to turn it down.

Yes.

No, I don't, as of now.

Yes, I have a letter from Kunzik this morning.

No, no, just warning that the fellow that we have as acting administrator over there, Samps, is very close to Hugh Scott's heart, and he said there are real hazards

in replacing him vis-a-vis our relationship with Hugh Scott.

Now, it occurs to me that if we decide either way, to keep Samson or not to keep him, that one of us ought to have Hugh Scott in and say, if we're going to get rid of him, say, you remember all those times you couldn't be with us?

Well, here goes Samson.

Or, on the other hand, say, we're going to keep Samson, and the only reason we're keeping him is as hostage

for your fidelity in the ship, or this term.

But one way or the other, it makes Scott feel it, because you get all this bullshit from him about his principles all the time, and thinks his principles ought to be tied to that.

He's a former Pennsylvania politician.

Well, he's adequate, I guess.

It's all kind of reverent.

He's kind of repulsive, but he's adequate.

He's a grippy little

Pennsylvania politician type.

Yeah, well, he doesn't have the class to carry it on.

Yep, yep.

Believe it or not.

I don't know what she's thinking, but I think she was there.

His statements and matters, which are such a clear part of the background I go to in community mission, remain an apparently incongruous figure in Victorian England.

It is in this sense, rather than in a more normally accepted social sense, that it is really weird to regard it as an outsider by the Victorian governing class, or, rather, by a particular section.

Qualification is important.

there was another section, often forgotten, to whom he was by no means unaccompanied.

For the ruling class, getting re-established, or whatever one wishes to call it in the 19th century, consisted of at least two distinct but overlapping circles.

There was the traditional aristocracy with their country cousins, their sparring,

They were rich, grand, tolerant, all in their center, not being frequently disarmated.

They belonged in monosyllabic clubs.

They usually kept racehorses.

Sometimes they kept mistresses.

The Regency Bucks, the Dandies, the 1830s, the Heavy Swells, the Placid Browns, the Mexican Whales, the Constitutional Indians, the Secessionists, there were a type among them.

They were not all of them mere frivolous.

There were conscientious men who believed in public duty among men, just as there had been in the 18th century, due to tradition, to so many of them as to belong.

There was another circle, the hard-working, serious-minded, brave and willing.

They provided some of his MPs and enjoyed judges' defiance of the service of God.

Of course, no hard and fast line should be drawn.

Disrae had nothing in common with Nisro, the one which is perhaps the most characteristic and influential in the Devorah movement, and the one that counts most in church prayers.

But he got along excellently with the first,

society upon which he had made an impression that literally all something forgot.

The aristocracy has always been tolerant of individual bodies.

It has been prepared to put up with entertainers, buffoons, jesters, freaks, as long as they give good value.

Actors, writers, artists, and wits have never found it difficult to do what this really unkindly describes.

the editor of the Times is doing, quote, will sever an enervating atmosphere of guilt and solitude.

His writing certainly did not sever, but he was instinctively at home in the great houses.

As we saw earlier, he had convinced himself of his own intrinsically pretentious status, queer though dispensing.

He prided himself on being a man of the world, cool, sardonic, or vain.

this over-worldly indifference among the growing inclusion of the Israeli times almost as much as his politics.

The moral and intellectual problems which fetched the greater portion of the Victorian governing class were of no interest to the Israeli.

He was a very clever man, but like Dirty, he was not an intellectual.

Although he was a great novelist, his spiritual worries

The ideological difficulties discussed in essays and reviews, the questions of the economics of politics, which I can say, I can cite as ill, constituted a language that she simply did not understand, or if he did, refused to take seriously.

He could feel for the wretchedness of the poor, that's us.

The contrast between the two nations appealed to his ironic sense of drama, and he tried with the levels to do something about it, but he could not feel

the moral anxieties of a prosperous, intelligent theater.

My lord, I am on the side of the ancients, thus to an audience of dons and undergraduates of the Sheldonian Theater in 1863, that you dismiss the whole controversy about the Ireland's oral speeches.

The intellectuals attested him almost to a minute.

Who, but Mishra, could have brought freedom and frown

If they don't send from the same political platform, the street number changes.

The people out there, they don't give a shit about other people.

They treat them like scum.

But it's the class that's different because they have a moral.

The kids come back from school and talk about it.

It's true.

People have to step up, not be captured by it.

I mean, still, if there's anything about the whole kind of approach, and it's far more even than is found in the Eastern intellectuals and intellectuals generally are concerned, it is that they really don't care.

They are destroyers and so forth.

But they are rarely problems.

They're just not good together.

This really, I mean, Troy is great.

for the first time.

So we're going to ask you to press your address

The main point is what happened to the other, but the thing about it is that when you sit here, this is the key thing.

The analysis was more interesting to me.

where he pointed out that our march was slightly less in suburbia than in 1960.

The reason we won was our enormous increase in non-suburbia.

We must not overlook the fact that

class is important, and there are good people, and there are all people that are in this goddamn cabinet, except for Brandon.

Only Brandon and I come from the working class.

All the rest.

There are others.

But nevertheless, what they really have to feel is they've got to get to do their heads.

This is the elite class in this country.

Or can it be canned?

Both of them really are changing its quality.

I mean, you can say, well, Buchanan's enough.

Of course he's enough.

Bork's enough.

Taxi's enough.

How do they survive at all?

They turn out nuts.

See, that's what we're afraid.

I'm afraid.

I'm really afraid that that's what we're afraid of.

Because what will happen here?

What will happen?

It's not too far from here, Mark.

I'm not sure that I mean.

He could be right, because, John, you cannot face up to, you cannot face up to radicalism of the left, which is deeply believed, which hates with a penchant, which, of course, handled itself very badly this time.

They will be led one time, or they'll find somebody to put out there, like Teddy Kennedy, who will be better later, and then they'll be

That's why I'm talking about the laws.

They, uh, I'm not suggesting for that moment that I think Romney was really God-damned in the cabinet office, and I don't think he was talking to my children and stuff.

I think both people had, both people had lost some of his job.

They had a real terrible cabinet office.

We all know that.

Where are, where are our people?

The House and the Senate.

who can frankly do better than George when he goes out there and tries to put this program on.

George said it'll be right, it'll sound right, it'll be right.

Well, in some ways, it's more conservative.

But my point is, in the business of government, the more you read this history, the more you find that when either the right or the left comes up with a man, watch out, because they'll pull over the center seat.

Well, I think a lot more

Well, you know, it's a funny thing.

It just may be that we'll look up and it'll bring her.

and get them located properly and cut down on highways and do some of those things, which really is about all you can ask of a Secretary of Transportation, particularly in a second term.

In a first term, he wanted to be on the stump and get the president reelected, and then, of course, he contributed to that.

You're going to be able to do what you want to do.

Now the problem is to be honest, that is.

And these people aren't going to tell you.

That's right.

You've got to tell them that.

And we are reducing our capability for telling information.

All our people, the hell out of the White House.

And we don't have anybody here who has got capability to tell them that.

Yeah, we call.

We can call people.

Most of the people you're moving out with weren't people who could accomplish that for you anyhow.

There's a lot that needs doing, obviously.

You've got a list of problems as long as your arm, but you can solve even without more money.

That's right.

You've got a list of problems, like transportation.

And frankly, let's face it, the biggest problem you've got is transportation.

It underlies the whole thing.

And that's what the hell to do.

The only person that everybody ever suggested.

A lot of them charging around on a white horse on the racetrack.

They want a period of assimilation, quiet, evolutionary assimilation.

I think if this election stands for anything, you can look at voting patterns and see that.

At the same time, they are going to be watching a fellow like Brandon pretty closely.

see what he would ask, and see, well, and also see whether or not he's going to acquit the national conscience.

This is always a problem.

People want for the nation what they don't want for themselves.

And they want a sense of racial fairness, I think, in our national policies with regard to unions and that kind of thing.

What do you do with the Christians in Williamsville?

He's young and everything.

He's the kind of a young guy that can really shove up fast, put him in the job, see what he does.

Well, up for him would be Assistant Attorney General.

That would be a fairly dramatic shot up.

I'm not

Well, I think that list that we went through is about the vice president, and probably he would be very slow to take L.E.A.

to be my guest.

I'd like to call him and explore with him and see what his desires and pretensions are.

I've had people come...

I don't think you would.

I just prefer, frankly, to be that close to the boy on the staff.

That's what I do.

Malik thinks LA is the best for him.

Yeah.

I think it's important.

He and Hallman are fraternity brothers in some ways.

Totally.

Yeah.

He did.

Yeah.

He did.

He's only 49, I would have guessed he was over.

Oh, there he is.

Oh, he is something that we consider terribly important.

It's terribly political.

It's a chance to do what?

Good morning.

Yep, you moved, uh, you moved Burke to Attorney General.

That's a possibility.

You could move Oglebay to Deputy Attorney General from LEAA.

And that wouldn't be a totally outlandish combination.

His law enforcement and administrative experience and so on.

In a political way.

He'd be the political guy and, unfortunately, the outlandish theoretician.

Oh, seriously, I forget about something.

Not one.

As about what it is, I think that everybody's getting Mary Goldwater credit for it.

And Goldwater made an emergency trip to Camp David and talked you into it.

The outside line has the individuals that work around you.

You've got to watch that closely.

That's why you've got to check the lines.

I mean, you've just got to know that it takes a

very, very even and strongly special.

They would not like part of it not being an inspiration.

My God, they demolished it.

He's alive.

He's a poor bear for the people that come in here.

We don't necessarily, Sapphire's the only one who did that.

He did it on the wrong basis, because he stirred in, yeah, because he tried to mix the health of the administration and the establishment.

Well, didn't he help?

No, well, probably helped overall.

Let me tell you, I think it's also, let me say, I'm not saying don't have contact with these people, totally.

I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying, very, very, it takes a terribly strong man to have contact without getting infected.

For example, John.

Worse yet, it's affected by them.

It comes away depressed as you can't help it.

You get up those days and they grind away at two or three hours.

You grind away at your wife and you come home thinking you're doing all sorts of people dirty.

So the way to live is to become incestuous.

Just talk to each other and nobody on the outside.

I think we've got to set up our own school and we should.

Who the hell are they out there?

Who are they?

What does it matter?

Who the hell are they?

Oh, they're the press, and they're a dozen to the new folk.

You know, you hear about Stuart Alsop all your life, and then you get invited to Sunday's Sergio Alsop, Sunday's Supper with Tom Brady and Stuart Alsop, and Potter Stewart, and you sit around and talk, and all of a sudden you begin to think you're doing everything wrong.

Joe doesn't have many of the enemy in his party.

At least he hasn't at the times I've been there.

Yeah, well, it's Brady.

I've never seen Brady.

No, they've already decided.

Oh, really?

No, I didn't see her.

They've always been fairly friendly.

No, he's the first one I have.

Now, I guess Pat wants to do a little of that and can and should.

I think he can do it with McGregor.

McGregor can.

McGregor could if he would.

They'll both have the money.

Well, how about this?

How about McGregor?

If we have anything, our people should show up, and those are the parties.

All the things that they raised have already been raised and out of the maze.

And it just isn't a goddamn thing they can add.

And they also, when I come, they want to talk about the big assumptions, and I understand that.

Now, on the other hand, if I were to take a part in it, if I actually, I guess, Irving Christie or Robert Nesbitt or somebody like that, I'd consider that very

and bring it and carry it with you.

But this crowd around here does not have an interview.

Believe me, you can read the Washington Post and the New York Times every morning.

And you're going to hear, given the goddamn thing said, it was already, they need to run over there.

They buried Matthew.

It's like the interview.

It's really true, John.

I got to get that.

inconsequential stuff and, and, um, yeah.

Once in a while you get into a real, into a real knockdown, drag out like Bradley or when Gene Patterson was around here or one of those guys.

And, uh, you know, you can take them on, but

They don't have the original.

There are different tennis clubs here.

We've got a few tennis players.

But, you know, keeping in mind... Now, Sapphire had a good idea that I've been trying to get some interest in.

Maybe it's cranked up again.

I've been tub-pumping for it.

He had an idea for a series of East Room symposia.

Not anything that you or the Vice President would necessarily participate in, but something just to generate some stimulation, some ferment, some challenge to this sort of

the idea that they might plan to see

down and talk about the 21st century.

We're going to come.

It would be just for administration people.

It'd be by invitation.

And haven't come.

Sure they'd come.

You bet they would.

It's the thing.

See, one of the real problems that we haven't done an adequate job of is bringing the wives into this stuff.

And the new guys are going to have a problem.

They're going to have a problem in the deterioration area.

But one of the best things we did in the first term was that Civilization movie series, helping the people who came to it.

They came, brought their wives, and it was just a great thing.

They got them into the White House once a week out of the theater.

It sure is worth a damn.

It's a big deal.

It sure is worth a damn.

You can't see it.

Well, we could have used the one on the EOB.

We could have used the one on the EOB theater.

People don't have a theater.

You see your movies upstairs in the Solarium or something.

You don't need a theater just for the first year to see a movie.

Christ, you go in there and three of you sit in that room that seats a hundred.

Sure.

I would think you'd rather watch a movie so you do a Camp David in a comfortable sitting room.

I'm trying to write.

You don't invite people in to see the movies.

Never.

Might be an idea.

She had a celeriac or something that could be used in the theater.

I invited my secretary the other night, and she'll never be the same.

She's one of those fur girls.

Yeah.

She's one of them.

Yeah.

I haven't talked to her anymore.

It's a terrible movie.

What's it?

Boo!

It's a parental guidance, which means that the kids can go with their parents.

For Christ's sakes, I wouldn't even let the parents go to that.

I didn't ask her what she saw.

I had to deal with some kind of stuff they were showing me.

I don't know, I mean, a little sex is what you need and so forth, but this is my first 12-year-old, who, first she drowned the cat, then tried to drown the school teacher, couldn't do that, and then he electrocuted his stepmother, and tried to kill the second stepmother, and tried to have, I don't know, fornicate with her.

Well, finally, I'm sure it wasn't.

Finally, she took the other dog, and she drew a ball in her, a ball in front of her car, kind of like those that he ran.

I don't know.

I'd like to be sure to miss it, and I'm afraid I'll run into it, because it's probably got great reviews.

Yeah, for some reason.

but they didn't have to show quite that much.

The little boy, the 12-year-old, he had a grill of people, and he had to look down into his mother's, his father's, his stepmother's bedroom.

So it would show movies of him watching people while his father and mother were apparently doing whatever his father was supposed to do in bed.

Oh, God.

Well, she didn't say what you were showing over there.

I was thinking, that is not you.

About the few times I have read it, I regret it.

Because it's a horrible, dismal...

Well, you know what I'm saying?

If we create a sound room, any of you can.

We should.

We're not concerned.

We could create one like a permanent radio studio over there next to your office, right?

We should.

That's where it should be, so I go over there and do it.

And I have the walls all dead and all the stuff they have to do.

Yeah.

And it seems to me that you could do the other.

You ought to do something for the women.

Well, we should.

We haven't done as much as we should have.

Also, they contribute something.

They want to, everybody wants to contribute something.

That's right.

Maybe, you see, the thing about the cabinet thing, we say put it all out there, all over, you know, the White House.

We know the ideas, you know, they come from here, the White House.

But think of the people working in government.

Sure, they want to manage and they want to make a contribution.

But then also, I think maybe, just maybe somebody up there, listen, that's the main thing.

They don't pay attention to the goddamn ideas.

But the fact that the people, they pay a little attention.

Now and then, now and then, one of them gets through.

But you know, people can just feel it.

They're pivoting.

They're interested in the reviews.

God, I'm not going to have that old fart.

I'm going to go to the marsh.

I'm going to go to that pool.

She's dead.

I don't know.

I don't know what the age is.

I'll be a black one.

It's exactly the right way to end two problems.

Also, I think Jill's made a good memory.

Court's in a big argument right now.

You notice this, uh,

The immediate Supreme Court idea that Berger's come up with for a panel of nine circuit court judges to screen the workload before cases are taken by the Supreme Court.

Warren has come out opposing it.

So he and Berger are at odds on the thing.

Douglas had a pretty good crack on it, too.

Who?

Douglas.

No, that was on another thing.

That was on something else.

Court refused to take jurisdiction of a case, saying if they started to take that kind of case, that would increase their caseload by such and such, and they were terribly overworked.

And that was filed in dissent.

Said the court wasn't overworked, it was underworked.

Funny a time.

Took a long vacation.

But it needed more cases.

Yeah.

It sure is.

Open his finger in everybody's eye.

It's not going to happen to him.

Do you want to cover the water game now, John?

Yeah.

I understand.

All the lawyers say there's nothing we can say.

The problem with my head on the whole thing is that sometimes, before the inauguration, before I can go out and face the press, something has to be said.

Well, there's plenty to accept.

That is their point.

And the idea that, well, you say, oh, it's out of order.

But you've got to remember that the horror is around that I'm trying to hide something.

I remember I said, oh, that's the one that you couldn't have.

I can't do that.

I'm trying to protect somebody.

I can't hide it to protect somebody.

Things can be wrong.

The rest, but I cannot hide it and I cannot protect it.

And I've also got to get, if it's evil, if it is evil.

No, I don't want it to have to be something that's just on the side.

That doesn't hurt any of them, if we can.

But apparently, with me and the rest of them, we need to get out of the corner or something.

Well, it's going to hurt.

There's no two ways about that.

Because what you'll have to say is, if you had a couple of young fellows around here who recruited a guy,

The watergate thing, I don't think there's anything to add to what you've already said.

You've said it 15 different ways, it comes down to the same thing, that nobody in the government did this thing.

The way the watergate would be set up.

What do you need in Watergate?

Nobody in the White House?

Nobody currently in the government?

Currently employed in the government.

Okay, say currently employed.

Ever employed in the government.

Now, you had Lydia and Hunt, who were at one time employed, but while they were doing it, even.

While they were doing it.

That's right.

Then employed, you could say.

No one who was an employee of the White House who was employed at the White House.

Either at the time of the incident or since.

Or since.

That's what I mean.

Now, that's one thing.

Yep.

And that we conducted a thorough investigation.

That was the case.

And as far as the remainder of the trial and so forth, it would not be properly compensated because it would be grounds for mistrial.

You can say that.

We've said it in a slightly different way, but that clearly can be said.

Now, the next question that you come to is, do you want to go beyond that?

Do you want to get into the question of campaign finances or the conduct of the business of the re-election committee?

That seems to me to be gratuitous.

I don't know why you would reach out for that, because that begins to open doors, doors, doors, doors.

I'm not going to get into that.

now the other question and the other question and the more the more harmful one from the standpoint of taking the police is the severity business and there you say uh dean conducted the second investigation of that whole thing due to the charges that arose during the campaign findings are that there were two fellows on the white house staff who

wanted to get a big-tuck operation going, that they've been in past campaigns, and it's been worked against them, worked against you, and this seemed like an appropriate occasion, these primaries where the Democrats were at each other's throats.

And so they recruited them, and they arranged for a fundraiser, a Republican fundraiser, a combine, to finance a guy, and they turned him loose.

It didn't direct these operations from the White House, and once he got started, he did keep them informed from time to time, but there was no White House control.

And as far as involvement of others in the White House is concerned, no evidence of that.

As far as any evidence of impropriety in terms of breaking a law or anything of that kind, no evidence of that.

One of his left, Strong's left.

Left the White House.

Left the White House, he's in the government.

I think you could say, and sincerely so, that while a great deal was made of this set of circumstances by the press, there was a lot of sly innuendo and so on, that Dean's investigation does not provide any basis for legal prosecutions.

nor any basis for removal from the government.

Strong has been given a position of responsibility, and you don't see any reason why, or Dean doesn't see any reason why he should recommend that he be removed.

As far as Chapin is concerned, I think there's a lot of feeling by Moore and by others around that

There are serious negatives of an eagleton type in letting a sympathetic character like Chapin go.

This has been your trusted advance man on the trips abroad, and he's a bright, attractive kid with a lot of ability, and he's here, and he did something that he thought was serving you, and because

It gave the opposition a finger-hold in the campaign, which turned out not to really make any difference, that he's being thrown in the wolves.

And that that redounds to your disadvantage now, as a bottom line ending thing, because... You could say that...

Discussed it with him that you felt there was questionable judgment involved.

And even though the opposition pulled stunts like that, that didn't mean that it was right to do.

But nevertheless, on balance, he'd been a loyal, faithful, hardworking guy who contributed a great deal to his country and to the government.

And he had nothing to do with Watergate.

And there was absolutely no connection with Watergate.

And there's no

wrongdoing of a criminal or other nature at all that you thought the strong reprimand was sufficient.

Now, that's one point of view.

The other point of view is, of course, that the second administration should start without a taint, without an inference of impropriety, and that you dig it out root and branch.

And you start as clean as possible with it.

So he was more deeply involved, probably.

And if there's grounds for letting Chasen go, I think what I mean is, if he's got to get it out of Ruth's branch, he's got to have any money in government.

He's got to run the government.

I think that would have to follow, unfortunately.

Yeah.

I think that's where all that leads.

Yeah.

Clawson, on the premise that he was accused, you didn't prove it.

This was done.

This was my paper.

They didn't prove this stuff in government information.

But you were aware of it in the information.

Now, actually, what they did, it wasn't information gathering, but he was involved.

That's right.

They brought him in.

They told him how tough it worked.

They asked him if he would do it.

He said he would.

They told him what states the primaries were in.

They gave him a rough idea of the kinds of things that one could do, and they turned him loose.

And I believe that as a practical matter, from there on, he was pretty much of an unguided missile.

Right.

From time to time, he would report back and say, hey, I did this or I did that, but that was really not an important part of the operation and it didn't really contribute anything to the operation.

But there isn't any real convenient place to draw the line between Chairman and everybody else.

It was not illegal or even immoral.

That's right.

It was questionable.

Because it was harassment, but it was harassment at a level far less than we were harassed.

He did do one presumably illegal thing of sending out some fire without identifying the source, but that's a misdemeanor type.

Has anybody considered that it is even unethical to engage in organized harassment and stuff?

of what is and is not ethical or proper or moral or, you know, permissive.

So that that record has finally been gotten together, which, how much you asked, but actually it did take place at a convention at the various meetings and so forth and so on.

Yeah.

There's certainly some sign of it.

Oh, that's right.

Not that I know of any kind of real thing that's ever going to be able to be used, but plenty of them.

I must say that as I review what Segretti did, the kind of things that he did were clever in most cases.

It did involve pickets and people who asked tough questions at press conferences and things of that kind.

Every time Muskie appeared in Florida, some guy stood up at a meeting and said, why are you against the space program and things of that kind.

He was on them in Michigan.

He was on all these guys in Michigan on busing to make sure that every press conference there was a busing question.

You know, that sort of stuff.

But I would hate to think that most of these things that he did were beyond the bounds of propriety.

Some of them were.

Some of them are, and they take this letter that did not contain any...

Attribution, as the law requires.

He ended up with a whole lot of fake stationery, muskie stationery, and didn't know what to do with it.

It was almost primary time.

So he thought, well, I'll just have something run off, get it out, and he couldn't think of anything real good to get out, so he got a completely phony outlandish letter that said that.

of sex crimes and so on and so forth.

And he put that out there.

Oh, yeah.

Jackson's been convicted of homosexual offenses.

And I was just, you know, outlandish stuff.

And it was on a musty stationery.

And he did it with the idea that it would never be believed

We sent that out without any buyer leave from Chapin or Strawn.

there are as many negatives in asking them to leave as there are in keeping them.

The whole eagles of reaction of McGovern dumping me was a surprise to me.

I wouldn't have thought that there would

spent six years in the service of the president, and now to get out and earn some money, which he finds himself unable to do.

Well, that's young manly, all that sort of stuff.

Yeah, that's the way it would have been.

I don't want to be in that space eventually.

Arguments on both sides of this, it's hard to weigh.

I think from Chapin's personal standpoint, just looking at it from the standpoint of he's a long-run teacher, he's probably better off getting out of it.

The chief of the Commerce Committee staff happens to be a fellow from Seattle.

He called Bud when he was announced as nominee, and he said, well, you know, you're going to have a rough confirmation because we figure you'll be one of the only two or three White House guys you'll ever get before the Senate.

And so you better be prepared with all kinds of questions about Watergate and about the whole...

And fortunately, Corby's not a problem at all.

See you later.

and by whom.

It obviously can help a lot if you draw the poison off the thing before you've had to see the price.

And so Ziegler or somebody else, not Dean in my

I totally would not go for a game.

association with Hunter and any of that kind.

month.

our instruction becomes important.

We should probably sell what we're going to make in the council.

Yeah.

Now we're going to have to let Crybaby do it.

make something out of this fine, clean-limbed youth being sacrificed to the wolves to protect the higher-ups.

And that he did it with good grace and great style, and that he's far too good for this administration, and so it's just as well that he left, and so on and so forth.

That'll be a wonder.

I'd like to leave the timing just a little bit loose until you see more clearly.

And uh...

They all agree.

He feels this was a mistake on his part to do this before the president.

I have a point which nobody around here wants me to make, of course, because it happens to be true.

And second, because it puts responsibility on others.

dump on somebody down the road, that guy is at least potentially capable of defending himself.

Each of those guys, the problem you're dealing with here is you're dealing not with the Howard Hunts who are not honorable people, but you're dealing with the Magooders and Chapins who were doing what they thought was right.

The minute you dump on Mitchell indirectly by saying he didn't have a chance to watch the underlings, the underlings are going to produce their diaries and show that Mitchell was in 18 meetings

where this was discussed ratified

thing by inference.

And so whatever we say has got to be absolutely crystal clear that there's no connection between the two.

And it'll blur.

Guys like Rowan will say, uh-huh, the White House has finally admitted their complicity in this whole sordid political episode of 1972.

And that kind of general broad brush, there you go.

There's no connection between the two.

They'll ignore that.

We're moving.

Yeah, we're moving down the track.

We're going to be able to get off.

separates Watergate from spaghetti, and three, admits a minimal level of White House complicity in spaghetti and pressure wine wash.

He thought he was carrying out his responsibilities as an advance man.

Unfortunately, it wasn't well managed.

It got out of hand.

He did not manage it.

He therefore had the responsibility to learn.

about even this so that it doesn't

He's a fine young man, da-da-da-da-da.

He made the decision to go out.

and then he subsequently says,

They thought it was the right thing to do, which was to move him to a damn good job in order to keep him quiet.

Which he moved, he would keep quiet, but he would put him where he's, let's go, get him to move him.

I guess you're right.

I don't think he was going to go after Stromberg anyway, I bet you're right.

Was Chapin a public figure?

And he's the guy that had the time.

I'm sure Sean did.

He made some phone calls to him in the recruiting process, but not in the directing of activity or Chapin didn't direct activity.

He was aware of the activity.

He got reports of it.

The only overt act on Chapin's part, really, was to have Segretti come to Portland when we were there that time.

And he stayed in the same hotel where he used

Practically, and he had Segreti there to watch how the opposition jumped us.

But that's the only way.

There was a period in the primary, this other operation, it stopped.

That was eight years of time.

he's got to take responsibility they have to afford more vicious

So, I think we've got to get a statement out.

We need to cover one, Watergate, two, separation of Watergate and Segretti, three, Segretti incident in perspective by

just to keep this in perspective, or two or three on the other.

As far as the prime acts are concerned, this was a security operation.

The president's approves of it.

There was no one else in connection except the recruitment.

at the time or since was involved, no one is involved, had knowledge or was involved in the Watergate thing before, during, or since, who is a member of the White House staff.

And he knew all that.

It seems to me Ron logging that out on a busy day

We don't know when he's coming back, so they're meeting again today.

By this time, by the end of the day, we should have some idea as to whether he's going to finish tomorrow.

Oh, yeah, I just happen to have a written statement here about that.

I don't want that big open door, if you understand me.