Nixon & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and White House staff reorganization

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No, no.

Oh.

I want to say to, first of all, to everybody, everywhere he went was on his election, on your election.

You have no idea, in fact, that it happened.

It's nice to hear that.

He said it was an option.

When he saw him, he said, the only thing I can say is that the president's reelection has saved civilization at least for four years.

He sent me a copy of that.

And that's the way it is.

Did he?

Yeah, I saw it.

And then he got into the process.

John also said, I sent this over to you.

Maybe you should see it.

Put some young people in here.

Oh, yeah.

That's right.

Put some young people in here.

That's right.

That's why I got up here.

the uh the problem the inaugural worship you know your sunday service thing which we were invited to do and he said you will do whatever you want but he raises two points that you ought to consider in that

One, he said, I really would prefer a black man.

There ought to be one black man.

And Dr. E.B.

Hill would have openly supported the president.

That would be a great personal expense and all that.

Then he got passed out and he said, the other thing, though, is in a service, he must give his convictions on Christ.

And he said that might embarrass the rabbi and the Jews.

And he said, on the other hand, and it's interesting because he always logs on and pulls them back.

He said, if the thing is part of the inaugural, then there's no problem.

But he said, the evangelicals don't like the idea of ecumenical service.

It's my people, they'll appeal.

They feel it's wrong for three different services because it's a compromise on the part of all the people.

Well, look, he probably has a point.

But I don't think that I want to have it as a service, the first service in the White House, a black man.

Well, it does the bill, because he says, I understand the president wants to unify the nation.

Right.

Because I think you ought to get a black man in some way, and I don't know when and where.

But why don't you throw one of them in instead of having a white preacher?

I've already told you that you've got to have a Greek.

You've got to have a Jew.

You've got to have a Catholic.

And you got to have a promise.

So have a black promise.

All they were going to do at the ceremony was an invocation and a benediction.

So they just had two.

That's what all of us want to be too.

Yes, of course they're going to do that, but you can't get away with that.

Boys have got to be more sensitive to what the hell you get away with on this thing.

That's what you said you wanted.

I know, I think you had representation from a certain group.

We might have to get which.

Why don't we go to the board?

We've done before then.

the three plus the Greek at the open service and have one of the four be a black.

Which you did last time.

At the inauguration.

Have four people breathe, breathe, breathe.

Correct.

Yeah.

Christ.

And have one black.

But the black are the Protestants.

Black believers.

The President of the California Baptist Convention was strongly supportive of me.

We'll take care of all the others by church service.

Now, Billy says, the following day, he says on the following day thing, if you include that as part of the inaugural, in other words, if it's printed as the inaugural worship service the next day and all that, then there's no problem.

Because then it's part of a public event.

And they can do it just so they can say prayers at the dinner and call the three.

So it could be called the inaugural

Prayer service is something instead of the inaugural White House worship service.

That's what I would call it.

The inaugural White House worship service.

Why not?

I could get a few more.

Then Philly would like to do it.

All right.

He deserves to do what?

Or, you know, I could do one later.

You could have P.O.

do that.

No, I'm not going to have P.O.

The advantage of Billy is he's solid.

And he's young.

It's a good combination.

You get Billy, and Crow, and Magnum.

You get the North, the South, and the West.

Where are you going to get them?

In that black creature.

Yeah.

I'm sorry about that.

What are you going to put in the next thing, though?

That's what I'm talking about in the next thing.

I'm talking about in the White House, what are you going to put out here to the Catholic?

Give me the names.

God damn it, I've got to pick those names because I can't leave it to someone.

Right on the line, just familiar with all the features and intricacies.

I know it's hard to do without a hand.

I'm gonna blame the frog.

Good.

Call it the inaugural White House worship service.

But make it a longer one.

See my mic.

That's why I wouldn't walk in with the preachers.

Preachers all walk in.

That's the way it ought to be anyway.

They walk in, sit down, and we would be escorted in, and we'd sit down, and then they'd start the day of service, which is where I think we're going to live in the future anyway.

All right.

Now, on that one, we stayed with the plan to make that a new majority.

from across the country in terms of attendance.

And it was not good to the Washington hierarchy.

Screw the hierarchy.

I don't want that barrier.

I'm not going to have it anywhere.

The other thing that Billy said is, I just want the president to know that the Moynihan appointment is absolute master strokes.

Best appointment the president could have made.

And by that single step, I firmly believe we will have saved Indian democracy.

Almost done.

That wasn't pretty.

I called Mrs. Boggs before down in the hill.

Now that's one I really think that Timon should call.

Now let me explain this one in maybe 15 seconds.

I called Mrs. Boggs and I called the other Mrs. Sojourner.

Now this has to do with the worship service.

the speaker to call him out.

The son of a bitch is probably out drunk.

That's probably the problem.

And I don't need to call him back.

I mean, the point is that Timmons, Timmons now, if Timmons should step up and say, listen, Timmons should call the speaker's office and say, I'm sorry, the president's going to be gone this afternoon.

All he's doing is call to confirm.

Do it through his secretary.

You understand?

Let's try to get some things done that way, Bob.

Do it through his secretary.

And then he calls Mrs. Bollocks and says, we got the message that Mrs. Nixon will come.

She'll be in California, but we'll fly from there to that for a service.

I'm not going.

I do not want to go to a funeral.

Now, they can create pressure, you know.

The presidential plane should go down.

They have this and that, but I shouldn't go to them.

Don't you agree?

I just don't know how to do it.

Yeah.

Oh, it's the old story.

We have a hell of a time doing things.

Symbolism is so important.

Well, thank God we did rent it.

At least we were able to recycle it.

And his point is that maybe the concrete is different from what they write here.

Very slightly different point.

That's true.

You've got that impression off the television and stuff.

The TV has not been in this.

I've learned the inside incest type people that are, there is no change.

And a lot of the DOPA type people, though, write stuff about very major changes, very significant, you know, stuff that's going on and all that stuff.

So there's, it goes both ways.

And as they bust each department, you know, move it in there, you get a, real problems we have, 95 or two.

The only ones in the departments of democracy, except for defense, are state and justice, and we didn't do anything on those two.

You know what I mean?

Rogers State.

At the top, yeah.

Changes you make.

Otherwise, yeah.

Make a difference.

Well, how long have we known this article that we must never let them watch it?

They're right.

They sort of color us too much.

They're basically, it's not a negative.

They're the enemy.

They're there.

Smiley, cunning.

Which way do we go?

They changed everybody.

They would have said it was a terrible thing.

Henry just looked at it here and said...

He said, once you win the election, they'll all be eating out of the palm of your hand because they won't bear the thought of being on your career unless you're having your mind.

I said, these people hate us.

Oh, he says, but they love the power.

Henry made the difference.

Henry, I know these people.

They don't love the power of being better.

I know they're going to be fighting this bitterly right to their lives.

You know, he's the interesting guy to be with.

I said that every moment, the way they can't plan a band and tell you the story, I don't know if they can.

Because from the next time Osbert calls up, he should not talk about it.

Let me tell you, Osbert went further to show you that I really don't think he was on an action plan.

I should have done something like that, and I know that the candidate was in, despite the fact, you know, I told him not to put those things in there.

I don't think they should be in this.

I do not think the New Republic matters that much to us.

I do think, I do think progress should be made.

That I think, but not the New Republic.

But what is it, is it like a, are we like, like a moth drawn to a flame?

Is that the trouble most people connect?

No, it's just that he's,

It's ongoing inside of you.

You are the only two people that write an analysis of the audience present.

You could read that.

The whole goddamn interview was from Henry.

The interview was.

Of course, Osborn strengths a lot out of him a little.

I would talk to him, get a few little things, and then weave it all together with some theories.

But I think that's how it is.

I mean, probably.

Brother must be having a bit of a time.

At least I've got a saver.

He's winning all that from the post.

I said, if I ever catch a fight in the post, I'll see him.

The whole staff is fired, and I need him to move.

I mean, it's got to be done that way.

You've got to play it that way.

You cannot let the reporters in there.

That's it.

We're all for that.

They're going to pitch it back.

But Buchanan's got a note in on the discovery of Watergate's segregation, which is kind of interesting.

Because he says, on the matter of Watergate, for us to say something now would be, A, belated, and, B, unsuccessful in terms of squelching the controversy because it's going to come up again when the trial comes up.

Nothing that anyone says between now and then can prevent that from being a major news story at the time, which will make moot any previous announcement or comments.

So I see no advantage in going forward with anything on Watergate, per se.

And on Segretti espionage, he says, that's quiescent for the moment, and whether it remains so will depend primarily on what Kennedy does.

If there's a heel investigation of it, there would be an advantage to moving ahead of time.

And he says, on that, to move now,

would appear belated, exaggerate in significance what to me looks like some rather audacious pranks, and perhaps involve and damage people who have made mistakes due to excessive zeal and loyalty to the President, and we would appear to be throwing our wind into the wolves instead of carrying them out.

He says, again, these tapes are made on the basis of the fact that I don't know the degree of any of the involvement of the President's people or creed people who are on the news today.

And he says, while the immediate post-election period saw a near-humanimous call for the president to clean house, this has died down appreciably in recent weeks, and only the trial or the Kennedy investigation or some similar investigation might be to raise it again.

Another point to keep foremost in mind, the president himself should not go public on this matter.

Then you get to the problem.

He should not lay the president's credibility on the line and have a subsequent story make it appear he didn't know the whole story or didn't tell the whole story.

Therefore, I would surely argue against the president going public now with any sort of statement, pre-trial, pre-investigation.

If Preston, in media form, he could indicate in the wake of the trial, he will have a full statement on the matter, how it's been treated, but will not at this time make a statement on it.

He says, how about a white house, white paper of sorts, of sorts?

Before any white paper goes, we should know that the other side has fired its last round and doesn't have another one left in the chamber.

Unless I hear some strong arguments otherwise, unless someone knows something's coming that I don't at this point in time, I think the best thing to do at this point is to do nothing.

It's time for the President to address the public question publicly as one that's concluded or when circumstances dictate a presidential response.

I don't see that one as an option.

I had the impression, I was past you, that

We shouldn't bet on this.

I'm still not sure that's right.

I'm not sure you are better off even gratuitously in this period to get something out that you can refer back to.

Unless you've already got it.

Yeah.

He did a great job when he was here.

Appreciate it.

The unsung work that he did in the campaign.

Right.

That's kind of right with me.

Good, good.

We'll remember it.

He's appreciated it.

I'm sure he'll get something great out of it.

He is coming in.

I'm sure he's going to wait for this.

The situation works out, and it does.

Well, maybe, if you could say, if it is, for help, and I won't talk before, because I want to, you know, I've heard it before, and I don't stand for the devil, and he's certainly not the devil.

No, he's not.

Some of you should say, I don't.

I just don't know what the hell's there.

That's what I'm concerned about.

I mean, I know there's nothing, it's nothing that I would be critical of myself personally.

I just don't want to happen to have a lot of heat checked out later and me having to then slap him.

That's what I don't want to happen to have.

That's what I'm concerned about.

And that's what I'm concerned about currently.

Dick was the one I'm most concerned about.

And from Chapin's viewpoint, there's no question in my mind he should leave.

And Lord agrees.

Lord...

makes a strong pitch, however, that the way you kill a, he's worried about an army one, which is what I am.

I feel that we can get hurt somewhat by Chapin Coyne, because he's a sympathetic character.

Colson Coyne, you've got no problem.

If you had fired Colson, you'd have no problem, because he's a totally unsympathetic character.

Everybody cheered.

They'd be wrong, but they'd cheer.

Chapin Coyne, they'd all say, that's a terrible thing to do, that fine young man.

Moore's argument is that the way to resolve that is to reappoint him.

It's just a routine batch of staff, comings and goings, just to say, Jalen will be staying.

So that you clean him up.

You, in effect, say he didn't do anything wrong without getting into the merits of the case at all.

And you, on the record, clean him up.

You say, I'd be willing to have him stay.

Then he moves immediately, or continues,

Dick says, do I have this job lined up in the next few days?

Or, not next few days, the next week or so.

I'm not so sure he'll get it done before Christmas.

He's trying to.

But then, he gets the job lined up and he knows that he's got the job set and he's going to move out.

Then you wait a little bit.

until after the first of the year, somewhere along the line, Chapin says, you know, I had a plan to stay.

I would like to, but I've got this offer.

I feel I can't turn down.

Then he's leaving under no plot.

He's leaving under a clean slate.

You've got the two, three others.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

But now, for instance, if Butterfield's leaving, Butterfield's at the same kind of level.

You can make the point that he's leaving, Chapin's staying.

Get a few other...

More than several of them.

Good.

I should do that with writing.

Put in a batch of, you know, half a dozen names of some going and some staying.

I can barely get up without creating any fuss.

Good.

The Butterfield thing is what he wants.

Right.

What would you like?

What he would like, I don't think we want to give him, which is the secretary of either the Air Force or the Navy.

I can't give that to a employee.

That's right.

I want that for a political handout to a dummy.

What you can do is make him Undersecretary of the U.S., which would cover your handout to the dummy.

I mean, he can run.

And that's one thing.

The other thing would be to move him into State of Defense somewhere.

It would be so far more useful than other votes.

I think it's a compliment.

I wasn't sure whether we were going to start talking in the same ear for a while.

It'd be much more useful.

Let me take a stab at that one.

is are we going to get some woman going to some bellatant thing here?

I notice that's the great belated she-hacker.

They all want to meet with me.

I mean, I'm meeting with my school.

I'm meeting with the women, too.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to meet with the women again.

We're doing the best we can.

Where's what?

I don't come up with any women's names.

It sounds damn good.

None of them are cabin type or, you know, that sort of thing.

We've got assaults on them in the other areas.

What are we going to talk to her about?

Protocol.

That would be great.

If not protocol, then will we score a job?

Right.

The protocol gets so much more visibility.

That seems to me, if we can make the chief of protocol make a deal with it, then she doesn't have to be here all the time.

Make CODIS the deputy and let him run the place.

Now, what are we going to do with John Miedecker?

I don't know.

I do think he should be out.

Absolutely.

I've got to do the client out.

You've got to send Miedecker out.

And I'm not going to be... Well, Miedecker is better.

Well, he is.

They're both good.

in their own way.

What I meant is, if you're sending people out who basically have done their job and now we're thinning down, we cannot make exceptions.

That's right.

No question.

Could we hear nothing from client on client's front?

No.

No, but I can check with them.

Right.

I can check with them this way.

I wish I could.

It would be great.

Ambassador to France.

Terrific.

The LDC is going to be like that other phone.

After we issue the protocol, I want to be ambassador to France over in another phone.

Kind of an amazing guy.

Chris, that's... Jewish people are Jewish.

No matter where they come from.

Even though they're only half.

but it's unbelievable that he would want that.

Respect.

It is an ambition.

People aren't ambitious.

I guess it's good to be ambitious, but not to be unrealistic about that.

You'll take care of it, but if you will, that is yourself.

Tiffin's pleased to call and speak.

And handle that one.

I'll do my best to handle it.

This is Bennis.

This is Schultz.

Bob, you're gonna have Schultz talk to you.

Yes.

Yeah.

He wants to kill his damn patients.

Nixon & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and White House staff reorganization

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on December 12, 1972

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