Conversation 822-012

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Thank you, sir.

I'm telling Rose you would like flowers to go with brothers and sisters.

She knows that.

She also knows that she did what she did.

Why?

What does it do?

Well, it doesn't break any of these.

Hell no.

Mr. President, tonight Chuck Olson will do those introductions for your instructions.

Yes, sir.

Uh, he suggested we might have individual photographs by all the evidence.

I want to remind you there's 68 people.

So, no.

Oh, I don't get it.

Of course, if we do it tonight, the same group tomorrow night is essentially the same people.

The trouble is, you've got, you've got the situation where

where it just takes a goddamn long.

Their wives are there.

How are you going to pose to them in pictures?

Well, that's what we did in Texas, you know.

It was a hell of a follow-up.

I think we need a large number.

And we'd be better off not doing this and creating people as they go through.

Of course, it feels, of course, this is the last opportunity.

They'll have to be photographed and be pregnant.

Of course, of course, of course.

Well, the point is that

They have to, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

I pray that with four people, we just can't have four.

That's the way to do that.

Just shoot them down and text them.

So we can't, I don't see how, I just don't think it would work.

I mean, if there were singles, it would be different.

But with four people, I don't want to get into that call.

I just don't think it would work.

Uh, yes, today.

All right.

Why don't I tell you...

I talked to the... to the treasury people that you had a man here in when Shrek was named.

And so George suggested another meeting, which I agree, where we sit down and present the whole tax scheme and so forth.

What we have to do when we have the second meeting, though, is that we've got to get the proper political input.

That's one that he will then have to sit in on.

George does not understand politics very well.

And also, he is not a very good salesman in terms of accepting it in an individual way.

So, that sort of thing.

You see, this is the kind of place where, in our whole consular thing, it seems to me that you have to participate.

Would you not agree?

I would like to pretend.

The point is that they raised today, and I had to do it.

I had to remind them again that I had made a commitment on the approval of a... Oops.

I don't like to be reminded of when I say it's already been done.

So what?

The point is, with you in a meeting, it'll be done, John.

But, uh...

Or do you think he wants to stay out of it?

No, that's fine.

You see, we've got a peculiar situation here.

We've got, it's true, we've got George in the position of assistant to the president.

And I realize that he's supposed to be able to do that sort of thing.

But George doesn't know about the politics of a can of shit.

He just doesn't know.

Well, and if he will not play, he wants to, but he doesn't know what to do.

Well, I got started, I got started off base today.

I, uh, talked to George on the phone from Andrews as I was going out of town.

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't mind hearing it.

I mean, generally, that's fine.

And I've decided.

Okay.

Well, I've decided a lot of things.

They wanted to show me that committee report, and he wanted to go down and see the two committee chairmen, and I said he could, and so forth and so on.

And they're going to present a tax permit later on.

I thought it all through.

So I said, okay, we'll look at it.

What I'm getting at is this, that

We can talk all we want about our new system, but we have some weak reads and we have some strong reads.

I mean, I just had a long talk with Jackson, who is scared to death of Elliot Richardson.

He said that Jonathan Moore and Len Gold were there.

He said, we're in real trouble.

He said they are both members of the Jerry Wiesner M.I.D.

cabal.

He said they've been wrong on national security.

He says, you're there, you're enemies, Mr. Reverend.

And he says, I just want you to tell Elliot what that means.

And I said, I don't think he will.

But that's what needs to be told.

I will not approve that over there.

He's been told that, but obviously he hasn't.

Do you see how it gets through the grapevine?

Sure.

Here, I didn't even know.

Why would he even know about it?

But not that now.

Elliot should know.

I still wouldn't know about it, because they'd bother him.

Sure.

Henry is scared to death that he doesn't learn that.

Hey, lobby who?

John Scoop.

Oh, yeah.

Good.

Well, maybe it's good that you didn't lobby him.

Sure.

Well, it might be.

There's nothing wrong with it.

But that's how it is.

Yeah.

Just those two names, I'm sure that must be.

Now, on the other hand, I understand, John, what I'm just saying is that I think you've got to realize that take natural resources.

Now, Butts doesn't know a goddamn thing about natural resources.

He really doesn't.

I mean, he's very good on the farm issues, and he'll be all right in that sort of thing, but he really is as good a man on that as Morton is.

Morton, of course, is above and down, but neither one really knows the subject.

And who the hell's going to run it, I don't know.

But we have to realize where everyone else's strengths are.

I'll tell you who's going to run it.

You'll never know.

Wait.

No.

Tony Dick Fairbanks.

Who is he?

Well, he's been working woodworker all these years.

He's going to be an assistant secretary.

He's going to be on my staff.

Oh.

All right, get off my break, young lawyer.

But you ain't gonna have six in your staff.

How the hell do you want it?

All right, so the other point I was gonna say is that I had a handwritten note delivered to me by a crew of Rosa's office complainants today asking me to talk to me about the FBI director before I made the decision on it.

Now, I don't mind these goddamn anoramas.

except that on the thing like that behind these notes damn well or should know that you would tell me and then he wants to see he doesn't because he know i've been talking about it or what the hell is the score i i don't know the score i know uh i don't know what i just don't know yeah the worst possible thing you can let happen is

I think, uh, you ought to give the note to Earl.

That's right.

Your point is that nobody can do it.

The idea, the idea, the idea, how do we get something done?

Not them, but the members of this staff.

That's right.

Please.

But, for example, Kleinby's goddamn knows how to operate, and he thinks for one thing.

That's right.

He's got some comments that way at the time.

Tell them.

Who the hell picked Pat Gray for John?

I said, he's my friend.

I fight.

Who the hell fought Glenn and I and Clint East?

We'll fight to keep that down.

Who the hell's opposing Pat Gray?

None other than John Mitchell.

I thought, does he know this?

It's interesting because I talked to Clint East on the phone this morning, and among other things, I told him we're in an absence meeting.

He raised the FBI again.

I said, look,

This is one where the president is terribly concerned about senatorial confirmation.

Well, he said, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, look, he's relying on, I said, he's relying in part on John Mitchell's good judgment in this thing.

And he said, oh, yeah, I talked to Mitchell and he's full of crap and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, well, look, this is not something that I am interposing on my own say-so.

I am reflecting the president's personal view on this.

And I said, you're just going to have to give me that list.

See, I'm just coming at it for the list of names, because I'd asked him for a list of ten names.

Yeah, I understand.

I understand, but of course he's going to have to come up with a list, and he won't, and so forth and so on.

Well, no, he wants to come in and pitch it for Greg.

i i know the picture doesn't mean well that's what that's important but i'm not going to go to a bloody confirmation fight i don't know i i really don't know uh it's great i doubt that

See, my confidence in Gray was badly shaken in this whole Watergate episode.

Why?

Just because he was not tracking, and he was not in the investigation.

He didn't tell us the truth about what he was doing.

He didn't level with Dean all the way through.

And he was spending an awful lot of time in Connecticut, which really bothered him.

He didn't stay on top of it.

I told you, that's where he lives.

He may have been sick.

Oh, it may be.

You don't know.

I don't.

But as far as Gray, we have to be fair to him.

You see, the problem we got to in Oregon and Gray had the idea that, which of course permeates a lot of the people who don't know around here, because of the fact that everybody had to really protect pensioners.

that the White House staff was really involved in the shot man thing, and the White House staff was trying to keep him from getting out.

And he never gave me a telephone call to give out.

And I thought we were covering up for him.

That's right.

Well, that's right.

Waller did, too.

And we moved on to Waller, too.

But, oh, so you see, that's the thing.

Yeah, but that is untrue, you know.

He knows that he's, I think he's got to know that it's untrue.

Maybe he doesn't.

Maybe.

Well, the White House ordered the whole time.

If he doesn't know that,

then that's another reason why my confidence in him has shaken.

And so you wonder, for example, what you're going to do about those top FBI people.

You've got to get all of them out.

In fact, you can't move on one.

You go out and yank around.

It's probably all yank anyway.

I don't know what you're going to do.

It's got to be a total play.

There's no question about it.

Well, I didn't want to raise an unpleasant subject, you said, to say.

I did, you know.

Well, I did.

I want you to know, as far as I'm concerned, it just means understanding.

Now, we used to raise...

For example, George Shultz and John Early went on an act about it.

You know, it's a political fact.

I don't want any Kissinger handwriting somebody here about, you know, or something, or planning and coming into something.

It's just not going to be that way.

Now, you've got these people.

The main purpose of this new organization is to have us follow it.

Now, one thing I think will help a greater deal, Bob, is to pay more of your taxes.

If I may respectfully suggest it.

Why don't you just, uh, make some calls, schedule them, and let Rose sit in on the goddamn thing.

And she won't come.

Huh?

She won't come.

You've done that.

Okay.

I think you're, how does she get her input in, then, on that?

She just brings them in to me, and I decide, no, she sends it, she sends tons of stuff, you know, scheduled stuff.

And she very, and she used, she plays it very well, very well for her because she gets out of all the rough stuff.

She just says, I have nothing to do with the scheduling.

You're in a, you're in a little bit of an in-between time here because, as you know, we're not holding sat meetings.

That's the problem.

We've got to re-institute them right away.

And we can smoke this Schultz tax thing out at a sat meeting ahead of time.

Sure.

And we can avoid an awful lot of end runs if we do have a discussion with you anyway.

No, no, I caught it like this, Bob, just as it went by.

I had Bob about it.

Bob said, you're all kidding me.

It just hit a ball to me.

I thought it was only going to come in, Bob, frankly.

I thought it was coming in until I saw the paper this morning to get me to put the iron on the coat and ask me to stay, which I did.

That was the purpose.

That's what he told me.

That was the ostensible purpose of the meeting.

He said the technique for doing that is just to talk substance unattached.

he's incidentally he's a prospect for the federal trade commission he's had some

consumer background and his orientation is right.

I think he'd probably do very well with it.

But I think the staff meeting is a way to get at this, and we'll get those wrong again.

Well, yeah, it won't get at the cabinet in minutes.

And then there was a start of the last term, and there will be some less.

There's going to be some this term.

There's going to be a jockeying, and there's going to be a testing cluster.

People have been told things are going to work a certain way.

Elliott's obviously pulling in right now by moving Jonathan Moore over to the Defense Department.

You know, he had Moore over there as his... Really?

As his transition man.

Really?

Yeah.

That was...

Oh, I didn't realize he was over there.

Oh, yeah.

That's what Evanston Melbach reported.

He had a desk work.

Now, the other guy they reported, somebody else, is not true at all.

Richards has never even met the other guy or ever heard of him.

He doesn't know anything about that one.

But he does have more over it than this.

As well as any transition with Kaplan, he's his transition man.

I said, well, you know, he can't go over to the events.

He doesn't give me an answer.

He says he has to talk to me about personnel, guidance, and all this stuff.

I don't know if we're going to talk.

But they're all going to try these things to see how far they can go.

They're going to pull their rubber band and see where it breaks.

And the key is, right now, is eternal vigilance, which will pay the dividends in the future.

Once they know you can't do it, they won't do it.

But if Clint Easton can run a letter through Rose or Rogers, as you know, he sends through his girls and stuff.

I know that we did that.

And then Rogers is out of that now because he knew he got it all wrong.

And it didn't work.

They came back to Henry.

As soon as they did that, it's all done.

We've got to get it out now.

I think we're handling the whole thing regarding your position.

I told Bob earlier that we are wise and we're going to do it very low profile.

And just do it.

And don't say it all.

Don't make a big story about it and so forth.

And I'll say, what about all this organization?

I'll talk about it.

Move the people in.

Don't make a bunch of bullshit about it, about their offices and where they are and how much time they're spending here and all that.

I don't want your stories like that.

They will just be there.

And they will just pull it together and work together like that.

As far as the Congress is concerned, you see, you have no problem at all.

They don't give the Humphreys and the others a chance to go in and say the president is acting and all this and that.

I see what they're trying to do.

He's taking power of himself and he can't.

I would hit it more obliquely, just to get it going over, just as a way of working the cabinet that way.

So, you know, better times, you can only get to that with a certain councilor, right?

And whatever we have to do in the courts, legislative authority, we'll ask the Congress or the Congresses, the conservative Congresses, except that as far as the appropriations process is concerned, how the President deals with his cabinet.

The Congress cannot designate how many cabinet meetings to have, whether the President seats one cabinet member or none, right?

The other side of that, though, is the kind of column that we got the other day, where they said the president said there were going to be fundamental changes, and he didn't really mean it.

Let's go out on a limb about forgetting that, too.

Forget that, forget the fact that there are no changes, and that there are no personnel changes, and we want people around the same way we saw.

I will not go for the headline.

I remember the big headline when we set up that stand, Office of Management and Budget and the rest of it.

I don't know, what a great name.

I'll probably do this way for two days.

You know, what really counts is how it works.

In this case, I really want it to work.

I want it to work, and I want it to work well.

We'll have to sort of go at our own pace and find a way

Rather than a great big story, what I'm concerned about, a great big story that raises a hell of a flat in the area of the hill, and then you get slammed down, I'd rather have a story that's, you know,

whether it's going to be merchandised by butts for his own purposes or whether we're going to put it out there overall

And you're thinking about that, and suppose you just, you would, I want you and your group and so forth to figure out a good PR plan.

Having in mind, though, that I want the plan to be one that we deliberately call the Congress assholes in and say, look, this is what we're going to do.

It's a way of operating.

It has nothing to do with your committee relationships and so forth and so on.

And we just want to see whether you like it or not.

It's a better way of doing it.

Okay.

We'll come up with something.

I am concerned about a guy like Butts who has to annoy himself at various points.

We've been sitting on him pretty hard, as a matter of fact, because he was inclined in the direction of spilling the beans on this.

Oh, of course.

So I just don't know how long we can hold it down like that.

How would you handle it?

Well, we have handled him.

He's handled for the moment.

How would you handle all of them?

But the problem is going to be to run through confirmation.

You don't want to announce anything before then.

Well, I'm not so sure we can hold it.

I'm very skeptical of our holding a hold.

That's his chance to not get confirmed.

I think your idea of... No, you can't do that.

I mean, oh, why is it this has nothing to do with it?

You're going to have a leadership session one of these days.

It could be done there.

It should be done with the Republican leadership.

Well, it should be done.

We're going to have breakfast with Albert and Mansfield and so forth, and then let one of us go out and say, the president told the leadership this.

and uh and do it that way either explain it to them this way and say look we've had this reorganization thing i can submit it all to you again so i decided that in my own operations with the cabinet i'm going to try to implement these things because i think it's a more effective way to operate it will not affect relations with the congress and it was only a way to do this i want you to know about it

over here and i'll have my cabinet officer over here he's going to have a primary responsibility as an extra assignment for natural resources he's available to testify and support you might want to include jalapeno

Because he's been so supportive of the reorganization, he could include that.

And we can say that if the Congress, I'll say this in a novel way, if the Congress that's with him after the season this operates, wants to change his way, you know, do that, then we'll submit a plan, if you want.

But maybe you won't want to, we'll just go on with it.

That's what the name of it is.

Let's see.

Okay.

We're going to talk about doing this.

You've got to think about winning Alabama.

I don't want to be around there after the 19th, you know.

Well, I wouldn't do it, I don't think, until after you come back, in any case.

They come back.

Well, Jack and I are here.

Sure.

They won't be around until after.

You can't get Hall of Fame, for instance.

They're all heading out.

The ones that are here.

He's in L.A. now, and he'll stay there, they say.

Yeah, Jerry Ward's in for that stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's got a place on bail.

We should find out about the Wilson thing by the chance or it's the wrong, true, untrue.

I couldn't get him.

I don't know.

I couldn't get him.

I could get him maybe tonight.

Goddamn it, maybe we've got to have Bush knocked out.

Maybe that's because he put in the work.

Where did Wilson go?

Do you know when he went and how and where he made his announcement that he would not be a candidate for the job again?

Perhaps we could find out.

Maybe somebody would know who he had here.

Somebody like that.

Dr. Hope is this area.

He's now the chairman of the Republican Party.

He's extremely pleased about Bush.

and i told him that bush would be his political contact and he seems to be fairly content for that hope he's very high on bush i'll call george but he ought to get with holman early to kind of hit him off from all his grand schemes with a meeting the idea of sitting down

Let's stop all the crap with the idea of meeting with all the Republican governors.

We're not going to do it.

I'm just not going to meet with Republican governors.

I'm not going to meet with the Democratic governors.

I will meet with the same people that they have.

That's what I'm looking for.

They can come in and cry and whine around.

And then they deal with the exact people about the problems.

Because getting them all in, you know, it's no use.

You can't do it.

You've got all the Republican governors.

Don't settle for that.

That's no problem.

But I want a small, small group and only once a year.

And then so that they just know what the damn signals are.

And you'll get it next summer.

We told Goldman, you know, he had this, we want a quarterly meeting, and we said no, flatly.

Quarterly meeting with all the members?

Of the Republican government.

All the Republican government to discuss what?

Well, I said, you know, it's artificial.

I said if there ever were an occasion

I said, you remember there was a big meeting in the State Diagram one time with all 50 governors.

I said, if there's ever a case when it's important for the president to meet with the governors, that meeting will be held.

But I said, Linda, the worst thing we could do is structure four artificial meetings in a year.

They meet you all through reading keynotes.

I have probably six.

They have the Pro-Republican Governors' Conference this 12th of the year, and the Democratic Governors' Conference, and the Southern Governors' Conference.

And they have a midwinter conference, and they have a spring conference, and some other day.

Well, it's because they want to keep their state cap around.

You know, you've got to see, you've got to see, you've got to see Robert Ballard.

He's got a goddamn rating on that.

I hope not right now.

This rating's gone away for now.

He's going to reappear now.

I think we have him reasonably under control after all.

And Cole.

I took Cole along and I said, this is the intergovernmental relations man from now on.

Your tie is to him, his tie is to you.

You know, the two of you get together.

The same will do with the mayor, who will bring our mayors, and never have a goddamn one, see, or anybody like that.

And that's all.

Yep.

The same with the county, the country, and so forth.

That's all.

Oh, it's an advantage.

And the reason I did this today, I think it's an advantage in our rushing out to them before they come beating our door down.

Wow.

So, yeah.

What is the situation with regard to, uh, do you have any further talk with Mrs. Armstrong and then Armstrong?

Now what I have in mind, and obviously I'm thinking in entirely different terms from what you were thinking, but I know his idea of putting her over in Jackson Square and all the rest, that's a time issue we're going to do the goddamn thing.

It's a waste.

It's a waste and a potential loser.

My idea is that for us, we really need a woman in this White House.

I mean, that means it's one thing we simply need to give us a woman.

And particularly after talking to the woman, I think she'd be a hell of an asset.

I agree.

Because she's more frankly masculine than some of our men.

And yet very confident too.

You know, she really is.

She understands.

That's right.

Underneath that little old smile is a tub, baby.

I'd like to see her here.

And I'd like to have her up at a... What title did we give her?

Consultant.

That's a special assistant to the person.

That's...

The title of the garment.

I mean, that little garment's...

Councilors assaulting these councils with the thefts because there's a lot of people who can't enter a council.

But that would be at the same level as home.

Everybody with the five assistants, at the level of garment price, has to make their assistants the first if you want to.

And you screw up the symmetry of the matter.

What you're trying to do, and it's a phony, but maybe it's a worthwhile thing.

My point is that there's...

But what we need in this administration, and John knows this, John is the expert on this, is tokenism.

Now, we have done every goddamn thing.

We've done a lot of things well, and we've had goddamn little tokenism.

And that's what we need.

And hell, I think our systems are present.

I wouldn't.

The fact of the matter is, I hear we have her in meetings, and we've all been at meetings.

She doesn't have her woman sitting around there, and they say, well, why can't we get a woman?

So they bring in a consumer woman, and she doesn't know anything.

Now, she's our silliest, nicest person in the world.

Our gentleman in the back, it's better to have a safety woman sitting in your staff meeting who will be able to help and ask.

That's right.

Well, she covers several other things that we need that doesn't help us out front.

But it helps us in some way.

We need a politician in the White House who can work with Bush.

He is a politician.

You know why she is, too?

She's your subordinate.

I was just going to say, you need a subordinate in the White House.

You're a politician.

You have been able to find a lot of thought in that.

And it gives you that everything.

That's right.

And she, I talked to her about that afterwards.

You see, rather than having that, you see, John, Bob, rather than having, rather than having basically, then what we can do is to get some of the political crap off of you.

That's right.

Which I want to do.

Because you...

the, frankly, the most important thing is getting around here to decide what the hell I do.

That should not be handled by clerks.

It's got to be handled in a very high level.

It's got to be handled in a very great scene.

You know what I'm saying?

And that's one of your major responsibilities.

And also, you've got to carry out these

balancing acts with Wood Rogers and other people like that.

But on the other hand, on the political side, I'm inclined to think that Anne Armstrong, after seeing her, first of all, she'll get along well with Bush, no question.

She'll get along well with Brock.

Wilson, I will have nothing to do with him.

In that order zone, I will never raise another nickel for him.

I don't know whether we won't.

That would be a great offer.

I told Jerry Ford that it was

The way you do that is, you don't raise a nickel for them, and you let Wilson worry about incumbent congressmen, and you give Bush the charge to go out and recruit some congressional candidates.

Set up a special insurance account in relation to the Congress, I'll tell you.

The incumbents would likely have to get the goddamn votes.

You can get the money for the incumbents through the other, you know, they're bought, they're being worked up, you know what I mean?

You know, they're being worked up by the Fundraising Act, so it's not a whole damn bunch.

There should be one research office for the bunch, and one PR office, or less immediate, and one television office for the bunch.

And God damn it, if they do that, they'll save half of them.

And Brockland's staff on Brockland does exactly that.

If George and Charlie can implement the Brockland, even with Bob Wilson there, he can get a hold of a candidate selection document, and let Wilson, it'll still pay off the incumbents better than they're paid off now.

True, true.

I saw John.

I said, John, I told you right.

Whenever you've got one bad actor in a bunch, it makes you fall in love.

Wilson is an ass.

He is so terrible.

I agree with you.

I don't think it's uninspirational.

Can we head that off?

I would think we could.

I don't know.

I just picked it up today.

I saw it.

You were so busy today.

Now, with Harry dead and all, we don't have a political man watching this kind of crap.

It was in the Post, and it said that Bob Wilson indicated, it didn't say announce, but it said it was learned today that Congressman Wilson had decided to seek re-election as chairman of the Congressional Campaign Committee.

I thought that there was a group working in the House.

There is.

Who's doing it?

For us.

See, there is one.

You know this thing?

To beat Wilson?

Yeah, I'm sure of it.

You're the leader, supposedly.

But Jared rushed off.

No, he's still here.

Be sure you get him.

I don't want to call him directly unless he should.

I want him to know that I saw him.

I was butthurt and unfounded.

And I just want to know what the facts are.

And that I think he's going to have a revolt in his hands.

I think he should.

And then we'll start out the revolt.

And he said, well, first we'll have a fight about something.

I heard that.

It'd be just about to have a fight.

I know that the symmetry, but looking at the systems of business, the symmetry may be spoiled.

The problem is going to come.

Well, frankly, is Flanagan an assistant to the president?

Yeah.

Well, he shouldn't.

But that's what you mean?

Well, that was a mistake.

No, well, yeah.

I mean, it really was.

We did it for Peterson, and it was a mistake then, and now we've got it again.

No, Flanagan was an assistant to the president four years ago.

Yeah.

And Flanagan...

But that was because we had to get him in this position.

He's on a grandfather clause now of leaving him with that title because we started to take that away from him, and, you know, it feels pretty rude.

He's being moved down to his office and that's fine.

Okay.

Why don't they put her at least over there in the EOB office next to mine?

Give her the Wilkinson office.

Why don't you do that?

They have a feeling that at least that by God she's in there and not stuck off in some damn place.

She won't be stuck off.

I think there is an outstanding office to remove the EOB plan right after.

You're moving a lot of people in and out of the EOB.

Let's commit to a good office in the EOB without going into specifics.

That's fine.

you know i just i think you got a property there i can tell i always thought she was good in her public appearance but i can see now that here is a tough-minded ruthless cold and yet a warm and dirty woman she will be a hell of an asset she's a better politician than dole will ever learn from me no question

And therefore, we can have her in for political purposes, and I'll use her for political purposes.

Why not?

You can have the meetings and won't screw it up.

She won't talk.

Oh, she'll talk.

That's one problem.

Oh, she won't talk to the press now.

She won't leak.

That's right.

Oh, that's all I'm concerned about.

But she'll contribute.

She's hard as hell to turn off when she's making a speech, but that's endemic, you know.

Everybody's arsonist.

But let me tell you, let me tell you that immediately, though.

She knows when I, at least when I, she knows when to shut up.

You know, listen, if she worked out, she could manage a whole cluster of things.

Well, that's what we'll have to worry about.

The baroomerism, for instance.

It's a natural.

You don't want to give it to her.

What do you do with Virginia?

Well, Virginia can work for her.

That's not a problem.

Yeah, I'm going to be a little late for that call.

I need to take somebody else.

I'll be over there in about five until six.

Oh, God, I guess you've got to keep rejecting everything.

Her day is symbolic, and she's going to say the consumer lady, and that's a question.

as far as reporting lines are concerned you've got a whole bunch of things arts humanities consumerism she is very shrewd she said you know you said the energy center what you meant was the arts and when she got back to my office she said look i'll do anything you tell me to but just think about it you give me the arts so that's you're looking like

It's the woman's job with the subject slugging off.

Give me something.

I don't care whether it matters or not, but something that's the bicentennial is a man's job.

Give me that job.

All right.

Find me some other man.

Put me in charge of something.

Let me say this.

I don't think we should give Vice President to Vice President.

I just think we've got to get on with it.

He hasn't accepted, though.

No, no, no, I just think so.

I just don't think we should.

Say, look, let's wait a little while.

It's too early.

Let's see.

I don't want to get any messed up.

I want you to have a talk with him, John.

Tell him that we've got to wait until we see what kind of congressional support is on this.

I'll let you get out of the way.

We just don't want anything screwing that thing up.

Good God, I recommend you to Frank Sinatra.

He's an unbelievable bitch.

She can do pretty well.

Plus, she can cheat.

I was trying to get some sanity to the Archburg so I'm constantly getting fairies and others recommended to appear in the White House program.

But that's not even the arts and humanities.

That has to do with your scheduling.

The problem there with, well, the arts and humanities thing.

But I don't want to have to do that.

I want Len to do something else.

Yeah.

See, that's it.

He agrees with me on other things.

All this schedule stuff that Len has had.

It's tough to slot, because it isn't really...

But you've got to be working on some things.

Well, and he's working into some things.

And I've asked him to get into this whole business of innovation.

and uh uh bringing brain pressure i think you're going to want to look right right into that too yeah philosophy the thing about i'm going to say to you though god i the reason about just be sure she's satisfied with the title and that you think it's going to be a hell of a pr thing if landing is an assistant i think she'd be an assistant but the hell with it maybe it's a mistake i don't think there's all that much crap involved in being an assistant or a special assistant

There is a way to try to meddle.

The metaphysics of it is fantastic.

The metaphysics of it is so metaphysical that women seem to be damn interested in metaphysics.

Well, I mean, you know, the folklore and all that around this place.

He is to make it real, and that's her point.

All right.

I believe I particularly want her in.

I'd like her to do the vice of technical, but I particularly want her in.

I want her in staff meetings.

I want her in scheduled meetings.

I want her in meetings with the legislative leaders.

I want her in political meetings.

That's what she should be.

And then I don't have to invite those other damn women who are always competing with each other.

We were always changing each other.

I don't want that.

I'm talking about putting Julie in a sense that treatment role.

Now this is a thing that Armstrong did.

The role of looking at

You know, the PR, the broad PR strokes of things, that kind of stuff is what I was looking at.

How things are going to look in the country, how you put the overall stuff together.

I don't know how she can actually be pretty good at that.

I think so.

She shares from the political side, which is really what we're talking about.

She wanted to do, and she's totally dedicated to building the present.

That's her idea.

Well, I thought, I didn't catch from her any of that whining bitchiness of Dole.

I mean, there isn't.

I just wondered, was she part of that cabal?

And that's how we lost the Congress, because I didn't go out and make a speech for Fred Schmeichel.

No, that's it.

That's it.

Pardon me.

I must say, though, that she, at least by the time you responded, I mentioned it.

Candidates, I'm saying, you've seen it before.

Candidates, you just laugh at us.

You know, that's what about everybody that, even both of us, go out and laugh at us if we were terrible.

Holden said that to me.

The most terrible candidates we've ever had.

Now, why?

I'd say, look at this, Mr. Chairman.

I voted on Wilson, I voted on Coffin.

No leadership.

No.

And there really wasn't.

It's decibel.

And you can do that with a basis that isn't good.

For example, even though we elected, we should never have nominated an asshole like Scott.

Amen.

He's going to be a bad senator.

That's what I hope.

We should have never nominated a jackass like Helms of North Carolina.

He's going to be the bad senator.

He's going to be in trouble for us.

So is the men of Jackson.

The men of Jackson are on the other side.

To liberal?

Is that so?

Who tells you that?

Go water.

Go water?

Vice president.

Oh, vice president.

We did our best for him.

Yeah, Houghton was giving a little rundown on Scott.

Oh, he's... Yeah, he's...

Opposite polls.

Huh?

He says, oh, Spence Coleman is going to run Scott.

Oh, I know.

Boy, don't let me end the season.

You've got to listen to Stetson.

I've done that.

Goddamn, we need to get Stetson to finish his other candidates and get away with Scott.

Talk about what can he do to do something like that.

You know, he got into politics working for George Madden years ago.

He got elected, helped get elected for a second.

It was his first return.

Good Lord.

But where...

I think the woman that she just got to go home and talk to her husband, she knows she's here until Sunday, and I'm going to talk to her.

I'd like to get it done.

I would think that I'd want to get off with three things.

I'd like to see the garden.

I'd like myself a woman.

And that brings me to John, who I'd raised earlier with Bob.

I realize time is rushing down here.

The 19th is going to come, and I've got to get out of town for a few days.

And I'm going to get out of town for a few days.

And I've got a lot of things in there.

And she'll make me a jerk.

Because on rules of the year, we can't get a rule of the year.

No, we can't.

But can't we get anything announced from the way of, do we have any women or anything like that to announce at this point?

Probably.

And what are they looking for?

Do we have any women on our list as assistant secretaries?

Not many.

Excuse me.

A few.

Yeah, there are a couple of women executives and so forth.

But what happens?

I told him, call it what you want.

Goddamn, that's what it is.

Now the blacks, let me say one thing I saw there was some jackass statement out of Texas that I should have a son-of-a-beating with the black leaders.

You know where that was from?

That was from the Johnson Library.

I know.

But you well understand there's never been a goddamn son-of-a-beating with those black leaders.

The way you remember that, especially just so Len turning off right away at that, and others.

There's nobody here.

Remember we went through it before.

Remember my name in that?

That was a horrible name.

The way we're going to do it is we will see individual black children, they will be seen at certain levels, and that they behave out of pat on the ass.

Otherwise, we talk to our own people.

This is how we should be open to all those blacks.

I mean, open to those who are the leaders of our organization.

They aren't going to have that hair in their hands.

We say I don't need to meet with the black caucus either.

We see Wilkins and Jordan and those guys.

It would be ridiculous.

Just ridiculous.

And the wrong signal to send at this point in time to the 61% that you've gotten.

Well, I don't want to throw off on black people, but I do want to see some black people.

You're going to catch this.

There isn't any question about it.

They're going to test, and they're going to probe, and they're going to be around to see.

They'll make it like it was in 69 when we stuck around.

But it isn't that way anymore, is it, John?

No, you're going to have guys like Fred Dent, who are probably, he's probably one of our soft spots, as a matter of fact.

Sure.

If I had to predict where it would come in the cabinet.

Basically, he's a soft man.

And so you'll have guys like that coming at us.

And the interesting thing is that guys like Vernon Jordan are not phoning me saying, hey, we want a summit conference.

They're out there talking to the press.

When Vernon Jordan really wants to have a meeting, he will call me, and we'll have a meeting.

Okay.

So just, this is a lot of window dressing at this point.

And they get a lot of mileage out of this from their constituency, from posturing like this.

But they have no interest in following up on it.

When you see all the provenance in the world, it doesn't make sense.

Of course it doesn't.

If something happens at Old Song of the Great Marshall, and if we put Jules' Law of Montaigne on the Supreme Court, then it will have some goddamn sense.

There is one.

And that's exactly where he's going.

Well, the smart operators in that community, like yours, will tell you if you ask them not to believe anything you read about what they say.

And he calls me occasionally and he says, I've got a speech I've got to give tonight.

I'm going to wrap you fellas.

But he said, you understand why I'm doing it?

Well, of course, I understand why he's calling me, too, because he's getting $40 million a year from us.

Let me ask you this.

John, please find a couple of women.

Well, I talked to Barbara Franklin yesterday.

She's got to find a girl.

She said she's got this.

She's got this.

We've got a bunch of them.

What's your name?

Andy.

That's it.

You have a hell of a record.

You were riding high.

The only problem is, we have quite a deal with this employee.

He didn't appoint one to the cabin.

That's what you're getting the flat from.

I wouldn't dream of having one in the cabin.

I wouldn't.

I remember we considered her basically for transportation.

She turned out.

She turned out even a hell of a lot better having her for transportation.

all right i didn't even understand you had a hell of a better symbolic ride that's that one sure i remember a symbol of paradise i was trying to symbolism the guy we got didn't give us a goddamn thing but we showed the ass and he made a very good job because he's apparently a very good man but you know john went to captain support part of him for working part of the symbolism we got our son and then that seems to be in a role i can't say we don't have a son we don't have a woman

I think Brander wanted to slip by in the night, I don't know.

No, Brander was a disaster.

He's on there because of his Catholicism.

Well, let me propose that we see how he performs.

Sure, right.

I don't know whether he will or not.

He keeps protesting that he's so damn competent that I wonder.

Let's see how he performs, but let's agree that after six months we'll take a look.

Yeah.

Because there's one that's a free throw.

Is there any way of getting the throw?

No.

I'd get a ton of you to say he's personally objectionable.

I can't think why.

No, I think you're stuck with him.

That is a practical matter, and I think we ought to relax and enjoy it for six months.

Let me tell you, if I ever saw a woman that belonged in Canada, this is one.

I mean, I haven't, a pat hit would not be anything, would hurt or anything, but she'd be no contribution.

Because, you know, she's just a sweet, nice thing.

But this isn't it.

I mean, I go overboard on women's intelligence generally and their balance.

This woman is a tough, I mean, most of our people have seen her in the wrong sense.

They see her as a mind, television personality, that sweet Texas smile.

I know these people with these deep Texas smiles.

She is a tough, strong woman.

I don't know where the hell she got it.

Louisiana, someplace.

Where's she from, Rich?

Louisiana.

She's a Cajun.

Boy, I'm telling you.

Is she?

She's a Cajun.

And, boy, I'll tell you, I was impressed by her, which is really fun having a girl.

I think it would be good for all of us, you know, to have that kind of, like I said, I wish we did this Bob Brown play, and I wish we'd have him around a little more, because he's nice to have around.

So what do I want Brandon around?

Brandon would be good for us.

He's going to cause a hell of a lot of trouble, perhaps, but it won't be much of us.

Brandon won't have any of that.

Well, I'll tell you who you've got that's one hell of a guy.

I sat next to him at dinner last night.

This is Bill Simon, the new church director.

Everybody says he's an impressive guy.

And he's, you know, the day after he was in and was announced, he walked back into Solomon and quit.

Dumped everything, wiped himself out.

The week before, they had moved into their dream house in New Jersey.

which is a $2 million, 54-acre estate.

Yeah.

And he packed up, moved up.

He came down here the next day.

He's been working here full-time with no pay, no confirmation, no nothing.

And he's so excited, he can hardly contain himself.

I mean, he just is, you know.

The difficulty is, I almost didn't do it when he came in, but it worries me.

I don't think he's going to be able to hack it because of a curious brittle quality which shows itself by having to tell you what a healthy manager he is.

And there's a brittleness there that I think makes sense and I think it's totally wrong.

I've had probes spending some time with him this week

And I've been interested in Buzz's reaction.

And he's not totally wild about it.

And it says that he's suffering from the fact that he's come from an entirely different environment.

And we're putting him into an environment to which he just does not relate in any way, shape, or form.

And that was true of all of us.

Sure was.

Thanks, Tom.

I hope I wish you well.

I think I saw him today.

I don't know if you can recognize him.

Looks like Van Dusen.

A smaller edition.

probably going to end up in justice.

You never know about a guy, Sean.

He's got to end up something.

You've got to call on her.

But figure something.

But I think Bob Gray is the one who's going to arm Sean with the cap.

Probably should have done it.

She could have done it, Sean.

I mean, anybody could do it.

Transportation, the crows.

Right.

I would think so.

Well, maybe it didn't have to be.

Maybe it is.

What the hell was the meeting called, Bobby?

Tokenism.

She was a lousy ATW secretary and stuff.

Unbelievably bad.

But nevertheless, she was a woman in the cabinet.

We showed her off all over.

Everybody loved her.

Except we might have to get rid of her.

When I say we didn't,

Well, that's been everybody's experience with women in the Canada.

to run something.

But this woman will not need her driving nuts, nor will her confidence be in question.

I have a feeling about this woman.

I've got to hear something.

Well, she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't have the confidence to run something.

She says, I can hire people.

She says, where I'm successful at managing something is when I hire someone good to manage it.

That's right.

There is something right in realizing, Arthur.

I mean, that's Roy Agnew.

Roy Agnew is a economist.

He's a economist.

I'll hire one.

Well, that's good.

That's good.

Well, if I knew somebody who didn't know us, that's what I'd do.

Oh, yeah.

There you go.

Any wonder is that.

She'd be very useful.

She'll solve a lot of our problems.

We need to work out.

I just don't want her to come in and be lost out in the French, like Bob Brown was.

You need to come in here with a portfolio, like Len Gardner was.

That's right.

And Bud Wilkinson was.

And Bob Ellsworth was.

You name it.

We've had a Bud and Carlos over the years.

Like Bryce Harlow was when you made him a consummate.

And like Arthur Burns was, even though he did have a portfolio, it was so screwed up.

Of course, Arthur was sitting there with Al.

If they don't have one, they either float, like some of those people, or float away, or...

They make one up like Moody Jam did, and then you've got to figure out how to cook a wild card.

Yeah.

But we really, you know, there's a wild card that came in, you know, that's, that's the, one of the people who actually made this in the wild.

The Indian one?

Or one by Indian?

No.

The one now, the Indian.

Sure, the white ones are strange, and they don't look good.

They look really great.

That's the greatest thing you did, so they don't look good.

Sure.

Oh, well.

But we all know what this is all about.

We're trying to get the thing in a manageable proportion that is more manageable than it was.

We haven't made many mistakes.

The record of it probably was.

I just don't agree with you.

It's very hard to have policies in a crisis.

Well, except that's just the fact that...

this is the problem this is the problem of what you're looking for um i suspect what you're looking for is a manager period

Brenninger probably is that.

And he's probably about as good as you can get.

That's what he deserves.

At the same time, I don't think that's really what you're looking for.

And we probably don't define the terms adequately for Malick.

And he's at a disadvantage because he's steaming along finding people who can manage things.

Well, I've talked a little about this, and, uh... You're looking basically, frankly, to go... Oh, come on, Jim.

Oh, you see, but the other day, he was what an asset to us.

He was a mixed asset, but on balance, he was probably a net plus.

Oh, sure, sure, sure.

Now you're looking for a different kind of cap.

Yeah, but you've got to have a little political antenna, and...

An orientation to the president and a lot of other things besides sheer managerial ability.

And you get a guy who's really a sterile manager, and it's going to be a tough time.

Maybe even develop some of those.

But you might have a damn good conversation.

Well, there'll be something.

That's not all bad.

Confirmation fight did a lot for Hickel.

It actually postponed our problems with Hickel for a long time.

Maybe it's something he wasn't coming in.

Well, it won't create a problem for Hickel.

Well, because he is a sheriff.

Instead of a...

instead of a politician no i don't think about the fact that hickle hickle at the time of his swearing in he was a different man than hickle the day before whitaker and i started our school up at the sheriff's park for hickle and after that week of day and night hammering he came out at the end of an entirely different product he had changed his beliefs he changed his portfolio he changed the way he

talked about things, and somewhat modified for temporarily his arrogant attitude to the old goddamned rule that screwed you.

That's right.

It took two years to draw him back up.

He didn't stay down forever.

That's right.

But I suspect this would be good for Branger.

And it would be good for some of these other guys to go through this.

School?

No, the confirmation.

It forces them to think about what they should believe about issues

that heretofore they have only taken sort of instinctive positions on it.

And that's just some of the benefits of it.

I think you've got to accept what you did in Canada, of course.

So, we'll make sure that they... Well, anyway, I guess really what we're talking about is, well, maybe...

Maybe you could put one, rather than just an assistant secretary, which is done.

Why not find a woman as the chairman of one of these goddamn commissions?

Oh, we've got some of those.

I know we've got one, but I don't know.

How about, look, is Dean Birch going to leave?

I keep hearing that all the time.

Nobody's told me that for sure.

Maybe the woman's strong enough to be the chairman.

And those are easy.

Now, we'll have all kinds of opportunities.

He's going to take that thing of the ABC.

Schultz thinks he is.

Don't press him on it.

I understand.

Please, please.

I just wish he'd take something else.

And so that was it.

Do we know whether or not that Ohio should take the European documentary?

I don't know.

So, you see what I've got now?

We can just do this.

And that's what I like.

we are not oppressing david as a matter of fact he came with all sorts of terms and conditions and was turned down flat so nobody's pressing and he owes us an answer now maybe he's done it already i don't know i just got back yeah we owe him something oh sure

Yeah, he's useful.

He's as good a scientist type as you'll ever get because he doesn't bother you.

Do we have any other scientist positions?

For example, is there anything we can send him?

Not really.

OST we're going to downgrade so far that he wouldn't stay for that.

Well, this isn't a bad appointment in the sense that he's controllable, and they'll, you know...

The reason for it, Michael, is that it's a potential woman.

I want the woman.

Well, you can put Dixie Lee Ray in there, but that's...

I don't know.

That's all right.

Let's see if we can find her.

All right.

Most people think she can run.

Of course, we don't know if Schlesinger says she can.

Yeah.

We don't know whether Schlesinger... She's a hometown girl, I'd be for that.

Right.

Well, you see, I'm aware of saying, John, that this might sound new to the position of the woman itself.

It's a race for Christ's sake.

We know that.

With this woman, though, it's going to be more than that.

She'll be a call-to-help.

She's ready to put a call.

She won't touch the table.

Put a call is the wrong word.

She is our southern politician in the White House.

She's a woman.

She's a southerner.

She covers the bases that way, and she's a former Democrat.

I want to tell you about something we're doing in Civil Rights Division at Justice.

We've had a guy named Stan Popter, ATW.

We're going to move him over if you have no objection.

He is totally controllable, all right?

and has really done a first-rate job under adverse circumstances at agw he's young and will be adequately credible to the bar and so forth and still will be a guy where i can pick up the phone and say sam stop it and he'll stop

I turned down one of these dead things tonight.

Take pictures with everybody?

Well, the reason I did, well, I tell you what, I just don't think that's quite the thing we ought to do over there.

You know what I mean?

We should have four.

We should have four people.

Remember that horrible thing that went through at the Texas Ranch where we had to lie with the four people and just stand there and grin?

four more people.

They're bringing their wives.

So I think it's enough for them to come in.

I kind of have a feeling that the pictures they all love, but I can change it.

Here's the thing on the Wilson.

He's doing it primarily because he's mad that Kurt is still in the race before he's trying to sort it out.

I'm wondering if we might set up something that he would be able to do.

One way to get an under attorney is some way to get the Congress involved.

And it just may be that the Congress, if it falls like Jackson and the rest might want to go on something unheralded.

I said that you would charge for the thing.

We did pull the whole thing out of here.

He had some excellent ideas.

Did he raise any unheralds?

R.A. said so.

I said, well, I assume he's in charge of it.

He is subpoenaed to the police, and then the investigator says that what he's going to do remains to be seen, and he's abused his extreme friend.

He's crazy, so Kennedy says, I couldn't understand what Kennedy was saying in his speech or anything.

You know, these guys are all against you to cut Kennedy's muscles, which would indicate that he didn't seem to be too unhappy with himself.

I think, as having the hearings, it may be that that's one of the ploys that Jackson plays his games.

But he likes to be in here, too.

So, we're going to let him.

We haven't heard anything to do in the hearings, so we don't know anything about it.

Everything in the case that they're not doing anything?

No, no.

There's a lot of, you see there's a lot of, these guys, they probably stopped at a certain thing.

There's a lot of, they think there's a lot of hater in it.

And there comes a point where, I don't know what the hell, people say, what if they're crazy?

I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

I'm going to wait and see how the trial goes.

What did they decide about this?

Oh, they allowed him to separate his case.

Now, that comes up in two weeks.

But he made a motion to do it.

He's filed a motion that it won't be brought up for a couple of weeks.

I'll say that he should forget his wife.

Well, it doesn't look like it's going to happen anymore.

The woman's going to be fine if she'll do it.

She will.

And we'll give her this top, this good assignment.

But I think, too, that it will be very good for her.

She isn't going to feel like an awful house.

She's going to get her work and the politics off.

I just think that'll be good.

I like that bit.

It's a very interesting combination.

Jesus.

She's a fan of the politicians.

She's a fan of the people that call somebody they want to talk to.

That's right.

She'll listen to all the men who talk to her.

That's the point.

It's a very individual combination.

I've found the conjuction of what people want to mention.

You've got all the style in there.

I'll let her trawl through here sometime.

But she's smart enough.

She said, now, one thing, we've got to be careful of this.

If I don't get locked into a position where I'm fighting Rose Woods or where Rose thinks, you know, I'm getting it in her way because, you know, and people and all that sort of stuff.

And she's smart enough.

I don't know what Rose thinks about you.

Do you know?

No.

She thinks that she has a good relationship with Rose.

I think probably she has.

But Rose is pushing for, what's her name?

Katkin.

But she doesn't know about Rose.

Uh, Pat is supposed to be in control of her, so I'm going to see if she can control this.

Uh, I don't know why this is actually being brought up for special purposes, you know?

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.