Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 827 › Conversation 827-019

Nixon & Ziegler on Saul Pett and Rose Mary Woods

Wednesday, December 20, 1972 · 2:47 PM–2:55 PM ET · Oval Office · 8 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation827-019 on Tape 827StartWednesday, December 20, 1972 at 2:47 PMEndWednesday, December 20, 1972 at 2:55 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 827-019 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler met to coordinate arrangements for an upcoming interview with journalist Saul Pett, focusing on ensuring Rose Mary Woods participated to provide necessary background context. The discussion transitioned to managing press coverage, specifically approving candid photography by Henry Burroughs to humanize the President's public image. Finally, they reviewed public relations strategies regarding increased U.S. bombing in Vietnam, emphasizing that these actions represented a continuation of existing policy rather than a new escalation or a military defeat.

Audio

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NARA Description

On December 20, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:47 pm to 2:55 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 827-019 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 827-19

Date: December 20, 1972
Time: 2:47 pm - 2:55 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.

       The President’s schedule
            -Meeting with Saul Pett
                  -Rose Mary Woods
                         -The President’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                         -Background information
                               -Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman
                         -Possible meeting with Pett
                               -The President’s possible role
                               -The President’s conversation with Woods
                               -Gerald L. Warren
                               -Ziegler’s conversation with Woods
                  -Duration
                  -Tour
                         -Executive Office Building [EOB] office, Lincoln Sitting Room
                  -Photograph session
                  -Purpose
                         -Pett’s previous article
                         -Mood, color
                               -Presidential decisions
                               -1972 election
                                      -Reception for administration officials from California
                                            -The President’s comments
                                            -Blair House
                  -Length of meeting
                  -Photograph session
                  -Meeting with George P. Shultz
                  -Henry A. Kissinger
                  -Woods’s possible meeting with Pett
                         -Ziegler’s conversation with Woods
                                       -42-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                        Conversation No. 827-19 (cont’d)

            -Photograph session
                 -Henry Burroughs
Show the rest of the log (47 more lines)
                       -The President’s departure
                             -Helicopter
                       -Associated Press [AP]
                             -Compared to Life

Press relations
      -Ziegler’s press conference
             -The President’s relationship with Kissinger
      -William H. Sullivan’s briefing
             -Ziegler’s conversation with Sullivan
                   -Prisoners of War [POW] issue
                         -Vietnam negotiations

Vietnam War
     -US bombing north of 20th Parallel
          -Aircraft losses
                -The President’s conversation with Kissinger
          -Press relations
          -Public relations [PR]
                -Cambodia
                       -Invasion
                -The President’s May 8, 1972 decision
                       -US-Soviet Union summit
                -Lack of a Presidential announcement
                       -Kissinger’s advice
                       -Vietnam negotiations
                -Laos
                       -Defeat
                -Vietnam negotiations
                -Pace of bombing
                       -Vietnam negotiations
                             -Settlement agreement
                       -Charles W. Colson
                       -Ziegler
                             -The President’s May 8, 1972 decision

The President’s schedule
     -Meeting with Pett
                                              -43-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                              Conversation No. 827-19 (cont’d)

                    -Woods

Ziegler left at 2:55 pm.

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).

You know, on things like this Saul Pettit, one thing that I should apologize for is that one person who should use Margaret Rose on this.
We don't.
You don't.
You see, people like Holden and Earl, they have nearly information about backgrounds that she had.
You may want to, at some point, Mr. Rosen, we tried to get Rose to see Saul, but she did.
Yes, sir.
It's a kind of delicate thing.
It's something that you may want to walk through a number of different ways.
I just asked her about what you said.
I asked her.
Why wouldn't she do it?
How did you do it in different ways?
Did you ask her?
That's what I mean.
I think Jerry did talk to her about it.
But I didn't talk to her directly, and maybe that's the problem.
That's the need to be dealt with.
Right.
Whenever you've got someone that's saying, Ron, you've just got to figure, you know, all the women issue, are they asked to be asked directly?
We can't have it done through a second time.
Not that you shouldn't take it from Jerry.
That would be very good.
I'll have her still sitting down.
I'll talk to Rose.
Yeah, you didn't say it, but someone was talking about it.
I don't want to be critical of Rose.
I understand that entirely.
We're not going to be critical at all.
We just want to be sure that she knows that I have seen him and I think that she can fill in for some high development.
And I think it's the only way that we get a man that will make a relevant degree.
And I decided I wouldn't include a walking around eye on the villain that is having fun in here.
Or is he told that I would take him out?
No, no.
He's...
I don't mind just going over and seeing the eagle in the office or if you'd like to show it to him.
Right.
We had previously shown him the EOB.
And we also took him over when you were out to show him the Lincoln City Rooms.
I've read a piece of what you did before.
He's out there with more mood and color.
you know, the decision-making, not the process, but he's inclined to say, you know, what are some of your work?
You made your very tough decisions, and of course, that type of thing.
What did you think on that?
What was your feeling on election day?
Now, I can pull him away from that if you don't want to get into that, but that's the type of thing that he's interested in, you know.
I've heard you talk about that before, for example, over at the California thing at the Blair House.
I'll pull him away from that if you would like.
Well, just to make it certain that you've got a man I want to go along with.
He thinks that...
Sorry, he's flexing.
He's so good.
He'll get you down.
That's the...
Shut us to that.
Right.
We're going to have to get things...
And if you would start to just walk by and take over the C-roads for a few minutes.
I'll go to C-roads right now and talk to that dude.
that after I see him, you just walk right in there.
I'll go and talk to Rose right now.
Right.
Right.
Tell her that we have checked this salt peddling on the boundaries.
Very frightening.
Right.
After I see him, it'll be about 3.20, 3.30, about 3.30.
She'll get home.
She'll get home.
She'll get home.
Now on the picture thing, we'll do a picture with you and Saul here.
What do you think about, it's old Henry Burroughs, he's a good guy, as long as we're doing this.
What about letting Henry, you're leaving at 4.30, why don't I just keep Henry around?
And let him, I'll go over all the pictures and make sure there's no awkwardness.
Let him have something of you walking out here.
No, no, just with you alone.
Just have him get some of you walking up there and maybe down, you know, just the shots walking over to the helicopter.
Would you add a little extra touch to it?
And don't worry about how you walk with it.
I don't care.
I can walk with it just fine.
But if it gives a piece something a little different... Sure, sure, sure.
We'll let Henry shoot a few shots.
Right.
And then I'll go over with him and...
You don't have to, in other words, what I'm saying, you don't have to pose for him.
That would be candid.
I don't care about the fire, because I think that if you get into something like life, you've got to have a certain control over how the AP is going to do you.
So you have to be mad.
And we're not talking about a cover, we're just talking about... Good, no problem.
They didn't come on the spot.
They did ask a question about whether or not there was a division between you and Henry, and I was able to hit that.
Did Sullivan agree?
He's going to do it at four, and I've talked to Sullivan this afternoon.
He seems to be all primed on the attitude thing.
I've talked to him about the POW thing.
And he said, the only problem with that is that it gets a little bit into the negotiations itself.
I said, well, I think you're subtle enough that you could work around that, Mr. Basker, to get the point out.
So I think he will.
When you run a hundred planes up there, it's not going to hit something.
The heat, Mr. President, is not there in this briefing room, and I don't know what that reflects.
And I sure remember going back to some of the... Well, you see, Cambodia was an invasion involving America, right?
Many, it was a shocker.
They didn't expect it, and the sun and everything coming up.
But here, the very fact that we rejected him was probably some mind-blowing out in the house.
Negotiations broke it down, and the war was on its own.
We didn't do it that way, right?
It isn't also like Laos.
Laos was also involved in American invasions, and people were even coming out, right?
Defeating all that crap.
This isn't going to be a goddamn defeat.
They're bombing the factories and they're ready to talk.
And we've been bombing before.
We're just doing more.
I think that is the difference.
People are disappointed and suddenly come on.
On the other hand, as far as increased bombings, I think you make a point.
I guess Goldsmiths, they think we're all ready to bomb.
But they're right.
And you've been hitting that point.
there's really nothing new here this is a continuation of what i'm saying there is something new

Also recorded on December 20, 1972

  • 827-013 2:20 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon, Edward V. Jones, Mrs. Edward V. Jones, James Balling, Jr., Mrs. James Balling, Jr., Nella Balling, Maria Balling, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:20 pm to 2:25 pm.
  • 827-014 2:25 PM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:25 pm and 2:35 pm.
  • 827-015 2:36 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:36 pm to 2:40 pm.
  • 827-016 2:40 PM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:40 pm and 2:45 pm.
  • 827-017 2:40 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:40 pm and 2:45 pm.
  • 827-018 2:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:45 pm to 2:46 pm.
  • 827-020 2:56 PM · 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:56 pm to 3:05 pm.
  • 827-021 3:05 PM · 45 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Saul Pett, Henry Burroughs, White House photographer, and Zosimo T. Monzon met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:05 pm to 3:49 pm.

All 41 conversations from December 20, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 827-019, December 20, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/827-019 (accessed November 2, 2026).