Conversation 829-012

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Well, he said he was going to buy a bottle of champagne, but he never took part in it.

He took his family out.

He's the All-American Square.

He really is.

He's the All-American Square, and that's why the Washington Press just...

Really.

I enjoyed reading the papers this morning.

Even after being green-painted, they didn't recognize him.

Now they've got to re-recognize him.

It's a hell of a victory.

It's a victory for, as we were saying last night, for Square.

And for the Square Titans.

Not that Kilmer's any Square.

He's a hell of a Swinger.

But on the other hand, he doesn't wear his hair long.

Basically, UCLA in the 50s.

Tough, strong, you know.

Just a professional who pulled it through, really.

He hasn't done that kind of talent.

But he was doing his best.

He had talent.

Yeah.

Well, I was... Well, Henry called me last night and pushed Happy New Year.

He was feeling better.

We...

That was a tough day for us to have to exercise on that therapy, but absolutely important, an essential job.

We've got to end with Haig getting married.

I don't know.

I think I'll have to tell him.

Did you ever talk to Haig about it?

He knows it pretty well.

Oh, my goodness.

He said, when do we go to work?

Yes.

He can.

Henry will be leaning on him and calling him to be reassured at the time.

He is the one guy who can reach out to me.

He can.

And Frank as well.

You can at times.

They'll take you as long as you're patting on the back.

You've got it exactly right.

It's just

Tell him two things, but he constantly got it crazy.

He was the indispensable man.

Well, he was getting good last night.

Because he'd been out, and he said, people were all, thought our decision was the right decision.

You know what I mean?

They thought we'd jerked the rug off the opposition again.

Hagan said that he and I saw the same thing.

You know, I mean, it is.

All he needs is a little bit of medication, and maybe things are going all right.

He's up to it.

He is compulsive about it, but we have the log now and all of his calls.

We'll know from now on.

We won't be able to... You can't log them.

You can't get the others.

You can't check that.

Well, we've asked.

We've asked.

Just one person, a low-level person, asking whether there were any calls incoming or outgoing to arrest him.

There were none.

There were none that they could ask.

He might have made it a private phone call.

Well, we're trying to get the billing...

records on that tomorrow.

He had to have talked to, or he had to have talked to Frankl, who talked to, you know, there was another possibility that he could have called Frankl.

You know, there, Frankl, uh, is not writing, according to Eric, he's gone upstairs.

But, uh, but Henry is composing on Frankl next to, you know, this Jewish, you can't see him.

Frankl, Frankl is a, he's, he's the Sunday editor.

This was the Sunday edition

Well, the times works that way.

That's right.

They pass it around, you know, that way.

Well, I thought of that last night.

Did you check the Frankel call?

I haven't, but I just thought of that.

I thought of it last night.

Oh, yeah.

Henry, finally, had a talk with Senator Collins.

Let's see if he talked to Frankel.

Right.

That was...

Because you can see Frank was coming out of his office all the time.

He spent a hell of a lot of time with Max, right?

Because his breakfast was on the line.

So he really thought, yes, how can he do that, Chuck?

After both the times he's done to us, how can he do that?

I don't mean that what they done to us recently.

But they started doing, he thinks he uses them.

I mean, he's working well.

Now then, perhaps he gets rid of them.

But it's a wash, really.

Don't you agree?

I think we come out of the losing end.

Every now and then.

Yeah.

I've been tempted to do it.

Don't you think it was the losing end, sir?

I think what I was going to suggest is that you could do a little bump.

Well, frankly, I told Zacher he's working on it.

He's got to get the chip messed up.

He's got to get it.

and the good list, and so forth, and the rewards, and the punishments, and so forth, and how to handle them.

It doesn't mind you, which I'm almost trying to say, and I'm trying to say, by letting Schultz, Blessing, talk to Dale, and Scott, and the rest, talk about the economy, but cut, cut, I don't mean the NSC off totally, totally, absolutely totally, but cut off any early stuff, which has to do with the president.

I don't know if there's anything that has to do with race, and the way

getting the economic side, in other words, leaving the coast.

Because Erwin was not going to get you back at all at this point, too, for us to let him be used by our enemies.

Do you agree?

Absolutely.

The post, I would cut it totally.

Totally.

I would totally cut it.

I think that's being enforced or something.

Yeah, I was surprised to see Timmons did a brooder piece, but it's a good interview.

Two days' money in the post, front page, Senate.

I don't know why.

I haven't checked why.

I'm sure he doesn't approve.

Because Bill didn't do it.

I totally disapprove of it.

Broder is with the coaches.

It's like Carol.

If we're going to do something, then the coaches.

I would have selected him other than Broder.

Carol.

Carol basically is frank.

He's voted for us.

He's frank.

Broder basically is fucking to go upstairs and sticks it into us every time he can.

Yeah.

Naming Wallace as the man of the year, as he did this weekend, I thought that was just untrashable.

Did he do that again?

Wrote his column on the side of the internet, Wallace as the man of the year.

He couldn't bring himself to name you man of the year.

the personal front.

I told them not to talk about the post.

The post is cut off.

We can't have it cut off.

Broder, they say, but he's syndicated.

Screw him.

Broder works for the post, isn't he?

It isn't like Alassane.

Joe Alassane is basically not the post's employee.

Broder is the Washington Post's employee.

Right?

Would you look at it that way?

Absolutely.

Well, I'll take care of it.

I would assume he, knowing Bill Timmons, how careful he is, he gets somebody to approve it.

I mean, someone must have approved it, but he wouldn't have done it.

But I'll find out.

Thanks, Warren.

Yeah.

I don't want to make Timmons feel bad about you, but I don't think you should have to say something.

There's some kind of drop here.

I didn't want to spray this on him.

It's good that he did that.

Bill made very good points doing it.

Good story, but it shouldn't be in the place it should be.

But give it to the star, because sometimes in Chicago, we have to go a little bit on the liberal side.

Correctly, the Detroit News, we've got a lot of them out there.

Even the Los Angeles Times, you can come back to the book.

Don't call me a pervert at the Times.

To hell with that.

So he is carried at the Times, but he is the Washington Post man.

The Times, Los Angeles Times, it's better than the Post.

At least it ignores them.

Do you see my point?

So, absolutely.

Ken Vialeta is a good man.

But we've got to find a list there.

Then I was going to ask you to, I just wrote a whole note on this to be sure that he got this.

When we think of delegations,

of generals and inaugurations and so forth.

We don't have a broad enough list.

As I pointed out to him, the only names that I got that had women's son Pearson in Canada that I got came from you.

You had a couple of labeled labor figures on there, which I, and Henry, of course, you might imagine, recommended to the emerging people, you know, which sometimes isn't good.

The state comes up with usually that.

Now, this is really pure gold.

This is pure gold.

There should always be a label.

There should be a...

I wrote a name on it.

Jim Roosevelt's name on it, for example.

But the point is, this can't be the Democrats.

We should have, as I told all of them, I've got to have a list of the major financial contributors.

We know who they are.

We should have a list of a hundred.

A hundred of them.

Available from only school.

It can't be just art.

It just can't be your list to see.

But whatever it stands to send in, scores, there's a list of 100 that contributed over $100,000.

Those people should be on sections if they want to go.

Then there's a list, perhaps, of another 100 who were the major political people who were involved.

There may be a list of 50 editors

We did during the first term.

That was done in the case that a Jewish fellow in my office kept all of us.

We went through the 180 contributors.

Everyone had a White House social invitation, a personal letter from you at one time.

When I referred to you, all that for a new person.

They're trying to get off the White House social invitation line.

emperor beat the old man's hundredth birthday.

But this is where you really have to go.

You must have a very legitimate, really a new list.

This is what I mean.

It's update, update, update, update.

And all of a sudden, it's a publisher, a publisher, a labor leader.

We put an extra mix in there.

And they love it.

I know all the social stuff.

We did do a good job with that, I think, especially getting people into the White House.

I don't think we missed anything.

When you asked about your key list, you asked me the other night how many members of the Business Council had been.

And I was wondering.

We're on Maury's top list.

There are 199 members of the Business Council.

199?

Active, graduate, and honorary.

Out of that total, three were on Maury's top list.

Sam Johnson of Wisconsin, David Rockefeller, and Roger Milligan.

Good.

There are 65 active members of the Business Council.

Those three happen to be among the 65.

So you can say 365 or 309.

I'll take it.

Yeah, that's it.

All right.

Now you see my mic?

I've known her all along.

I told Pete, finally, the bus is full, time and time again.

I said, Pete, those people.

And they say, well, they're not so bad, and so forth.

Now, look, you follow up on this.

Just say to the president, we have a little check major.

I want you to call him.

I want you to call that sweetheart, George Shultz, and tell him.

And I want you to tell him, he'll mind it.

I said, now, there were about 199 present checks out of the bank.

I'm already saying this.

It's furnished his list of major contributors.

Don't say, oh, I'm trying to tell you something.

Say it.

You said 5,000.

That's a little bit of an overstatement, but probably a few more.

That says the main contributors, out of 199, 3,000,000 were main contributors.

Now, what name?

Oh, they said that they're managers.

That's a little mean.

Those guys are rich, most of them.

Most of them can afford it.

Most of them get to do their work.

Before they get to the business council, they make money on stuff that's considered good.

So when I, for example, Don Kendall is on the business council, and he can't contribute.

He's not a rich man, and he worked his tail off.

That's available.

But maybe one other.

I'll bet you Don Kendall, he's pretty much, I think, distressed about the business council.

He said, oh, yeah.

He went down there listening.

Have you talked to Don about his checklist?

I put a call in to Dan to excuse you.

He was on vacation right now.

You see, Don can give you a lot of stuff there.

I want to work closely with Dan, Mr. President, because he's going to try to do some things in business.

You see, you look at our chances.

You've got that, Mr. President.

Morey's gonna do his own work.

You've got those over 100,000.

You've got three or four hundred more.

This isn't really a heck of a list.

I'd like you to get all that together.

I'd like you to talk to Morey's fans.

But then right here in Washington, the thing that you've got to do, Chuck, nobody else will understand, except if you live long.

We've got to work up this list of law firms.

I mean, can I get this again?

Because I'm afraid it's not being done.

Pete finally will be seeing somebody about a license one of these days for an airline.

You know how he does.

I want to cut off.

I agree.

I absolutely agree.

I've been trying to cut him off for four years.

I know I could.

I know you have.

But what I mean is, it would have put you, to you, with your group now, sir, working with all of us, all of us, all of us,

that's the only way it really enforces this when you when someone comes in and you find them you find the lee white uh in the democratic who was head of the fire professional you know if you see him there's

That's right.

And you've got to be cold-blooded about it, because God never gave us a quarter when we were.

Did you get the White House out when you were out?

No, sir.

And just to point out, I have a little note.

You were in the White House after you were Washington.

Well, you were part of Chicago, right?

That wasn't it.

And did you realize that in eight years, I was there in the White House for a social function?

Never.

In eight years, I was a former vice president.

Sir?

Never.

He won.

You know, I never, I never was in a way that I was never expecting it.

And then when I see us bringing Democrats in.

Well, let me say, the point is, it's hard for me.

Democrats, yes, but only if there are Democrats.

I mean, the Indians are never going to have one of their Democrats in this place again.

I mean, that's that.

Anybody who wouldn't stand up against the government is out.

Great.

Yes, sir.

But Murray is going to be around.

He's interested in politics.

He's particularly interested in congressional things.

Perhaps keep in touch with him, but have in mind, you know, what he can do and what he can't do.

He's a very good operator, but he has some problems.

I saw Murray on Friday and he asked if I would be interested in his coming in as counsel to my firm.

I'm afraid I can't do it now because

Murray's had a couple of problems also.

I think it would make my firm a little cheaper.

No, no, no.

I have the greatest respect for Murray, but Murray's making lots of money.

You can pass stuff back and forth if you have conflicts of interest.

That's why I told him I would do it.

Murray said he made a couple hundred thousand dollars last year.

He's doing fine.

He doesn't need it.

But he shouldn't be in here, sir.

I think you're doing very good.

I mean, I like the other years.

I mean, a couple of Jews.

I don't know if I'll be able to live with it.

I don't know.

It's awful.

OK.

I don't think you need to put a flag on it.

Oh, no, no.

Don't go that far.

I wouldn't question that.

But the Jews are simply because they've been brilliant antitrust lawyers.

One of them went to my school with Len Garman.

And Len said he's a genius.

He's a Brooklyn law school boy.

The other one.

worked his way up in New York Columbia Law School, but they're bold.

They've practiced anti-crush law in the courts for 20 years.

And it's perfect for me because the thing that I never had when I practiced before was enough trial clout, and if you really get to that point, and need it.

Plus, it's a good balance for me.

And I've made a deal with them that they can't take any case without my approval of any kind, so that I...

Okay.

I've been fighting people.

It's been a great pleasure, too, because I know some people who don't want to fight.

I've been sort of shunning people aside who wanted to come to talk to me because I don't want to sign them up until I'm out of here.

I know some people want to be, basically, you should be the Clifford title.

You should be the Clifford title, but you should not be, basically, the political author.

Correct.

That's why on that matter of the Republican committee, it's much better for you to handle the case as a lawyer than to be counsel for the Republican committee.

And every time you're in the White House, I first thought it was a better idea.

Let me put it this way.

You don't need the Republican committee.

You see what I mean?

They need you.

So therefore, I think the point is you've got your tie into the White House.

Now, I was thinking of what we could set up in the way of another one you had talked to as the, as sort of the kitchen cabinet.

Naturally, we'll have you.

I think we ought to have a greater piece here.

You have respect for him.

Very much so.

Harlow?

Yep.

Who else?

I did a scan of... Oh, he had the look.

He had the look.

What I need is just a group of people that can sit around.

We can mix it up and horse it around.

From the outside, I'm trying to think of the way this room is done.

Connelly, if you would mix in.

Connelly always suggests whatever he says.

I wish he made up his mind.

He just loves money too much.

I'm afraid that would be his case.

It is, and he doesn't want to do it.

Well, all in all, the new year starts, though.

You know, I'm just thinking here.

Not that we wanted to go through the agony of these last two.

when the strain was really great as it was.

But in the end, if Henry works out the settlement now, it will clearly be your settlement.

And it was not headed that way.

It was just as well with, we've had this little bit of split.

There's been a difference between the two.

And there was too much, Henry was getting too much public.

There's another thing, too, that's happening, that happens.

They're putting it at another standpoint.

We have the war on any basis now.

We have a grab that is halfway reasonable.

Our credibility in the world is enormous.

We can squeal all we want.

That just gives you a lot more respect among others.

So we've done that.

We haven't backed into it.

We haven't been political about it.

They realize they're dealing with a tough man, a strong man.

Well, then you set it back the wrong way.

here in this country, it allowed the McGovernites, it forced them, instead of starting sucking back, to get out on the limb again.

And I think it's all wrong.

I think we've done this all wrong.

I think there are some other advantages.

One, if the South didn't leave Squawk, they'll have less credibility now.

Right.

Because everybody knows we did everything humanly possible.

and really put the North Vietnamese to the wall.

And secondly, I think you've taken a hell of a toll on the North Vietnamese.

You know, in D.C., it was very interesting.

I watched the network news last night, and it's obvious what they had intended to do to us this weekend was just murder criminals in Hanoi.

And they had about seven or eight minutes of Hanoi prison film footage taken by a Japanese film company.

And

and distributed by the North Vietnamese.

I mean, propaganda film.

Sure.

But Jesus, it just leveled Hanoi.

I mean, that was pretty devastating stuff they were showing.

So they... No, sir.

Not now that it's over.

I think...

I think they were just building up... We're building up a nice contendo yet to...

the return of the Pampers, and they would have, they would have...

I think it was a beautifully orchestrated protest coming.

That New York Times speech yesterday, both NBC and CBS were fighting for the Pampers.

I don't think they expected it.

I don't think they expected my surprise.

I don't think they expected it.

They expected a pause.

But they didn't expect it.

They just expected us to stop.

They didn't expect an RV at the maze, frankly.

No.

They didn't expect it.

No, because I think the smart doves were figuring that the North Vietnamese would wait and see what the Congress did in the first two weeks, three weeks, how much domestic pressure could be built.

And actually, I think it is a testimony to the effectiveness of the bombing that for all of its faults, they apparently didn't want to stretch this out another couple of weeks.

Seems to me, at least, it would have been to their advantage if they were taking that much punishment.

I think they were taking the punishment.

I think they had to have been really doing it.

That's right.

Kind of stands to reason, you know, that... Yeah.

You can't, you can't go in with that much shit.

You know, too, there's a terrific effect.

I mean, I didn't solve everything.

The service was sort of brutal, but, you know, you set the box on your hair, uh,

Well, let's get the money.

They're sitting, Mr. President, doing just what I would do if I were in the issues.

They're figuring, well, we'll lay low for

a year, then we'll start building the drumbeat behind someone to come in and take over the fire in Washington.

The president will be a lame duck.

His administration will be on the decline.

And, oh, they're just waiting to regroup and come after us.

Now is the time to really, really clamp down and just not let them get up off the ground.

Anybody who fought you this year and is

Wants to stay active in politics and Washington.

The hell with him.

Let him stay active outside of here.

Not getting any help or encouragement from us.

I feel very sorry about that.

That was typical of the press thing.

Like Broderick.

Now, Broderick probably did that under direct orders from Bradley.

I know Broderick very well.

He's very important.

But he's just like Semple.

He's intelligent and sensitive.

left, fairly objective, but he's also ambitious.

Oh, Berger.

Berger's what the star Berger used to be called.

And then he moved up, you know, with the old Harold Pickett.

And then he moved down, I don't know, a year at a time.

Then he moved down to the Washington Post.

A guy who moves like that is a fellow who's very loyal.

He's going right for life.

That's right.

And Bradley is a guy, he's a

I really want to go after that post.

I'm going to.

I don't know what you're going to do.

Oh, I've got to.

Have you?

If I can keep that scape sobered up long enough, I've got a marvelous idea.

It's funny that he dragged you.

Oh, yeah.

Because he's an alcoholic.

He goes on.

Just as bad.

On long.

Just as bad.

Out of it.

I mean, it could be.

Totally.

That's a trouble.

It's funny.

Yeah, it is.

Too much booze.

Good booze.

You know, bad booze.

People don't eat them.

I guess they become alcoholics.

Well, he just has nothing else to do with his time.

You know, because he travels for so many years.

Is there anything that you can rely on him to try to put together something?

I just, only be, well, two reasons.

He's got money that he can afford to throw away.

And he's, philosophically, has a strong disposition.

Oh, yes, he's on the right, that's for sure.

Yeah, strong.

And you have to have somebody who is, and he wants to be in the publishing business.

So there are ways to do it.

That Miami TV station challenge will be filed, although I've had several folks that swung McCrae.

He won't be in it initially, which is good.

That's a real long shot.

That's more of a harassment.

They did it.

Washington Post was very clever, and they put that station together and ran it for three years, and they hired 28 Spanish-speaking, and they hired blacks, and they did all the things the law required.

What do you take them on, basically, on?

not investing the profits of the station in the community.

They're taking them back here to Washington.

Oh.

And so the new group will promise to reinvest all of the profits of five years in the community, such and such.

That's good.

Enough to tie it up in court, that's all.

But the real place where the post can be taken is in some stockholder litigation.

I'm convinced that the scale is vulnerable.

What about the benefits?

That Webster over there, that's one of the files that should be pulled.

Should be.

One of the quickness.

What do you think?

I've given, I've- I'll bet you he doesn't have a, doesn't have an audience to do that.

What do you think?

I'll bet anything he is not.

That's my point.

Yeah.

I know he is.

And Webster's the reason that we're having, you know, a long FBI investigation.

Webster, he was over there every year with the Democrats because he was active in the Goldwater campaign.

He was active in the 1960 campaign.

We can get him.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

The FBI is doing the most exhaustive investigation on him.

They checked into his father and his brothers.

So once that comes back, we'll be fine.

He has nothing except two years of bail and a file and all that sort of thing.

We'll just find it true.

It was just an interpretation of farm lawsuits, basically.

And that's it.

Got anybody to the farm against him at that point.

You see, what I want to do, basically, is to have you in the house for the first time in a while, sit on your bed, and we can use this little screen that I've told you to use him as the deal, the hope.

And it has nothing to do either way.

oil, but there is a lesson in the United States.

Now, the other thing is the bush, the rock, and the brown, the tree leaves may turn out to be one heck of a thing.

And I read, I don't know whether we can, it's never happened since 1934, but whether we can

We didn't hope to turn around this, to do better in the off-year elections or not.

You just can't tell.

It depends on so many things.

But if the economy would just stay good through 74, you just might do it.

That's the key thing.

The dip is going to come then.

It's doing so well now, Chuck.

You really start to think of it, take this whole North Vietnam situation.

I have a feeling that one of the reasons people are not so darn scared about it

You see it there.

When one thing adds to another, and people are a little worried about the economic thing, then they think everything is bad.

But if things are going pretty well economically, then they say, well, I don't like that.

Do you agree?

But it isn't affecting that.

Isn't that dissimilar?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

If the man has a job, and he's just bought something new that he likes,

He's got a good color television set.

He isn't worried about his own economic future.

And he reads about the bombing.

He may say, well, I don't like it, but what the hell is it?

It doesn't affect me.

And the kind of people you had out here marching with Dean Sayre were very, I thought, kind of revealing.

They were the typical upper middle class, the social conscience.

They're well off, but they're just kind of

crusade for something to perpetrate their views.

The average guy in the street, with the economy going well, he just isn't all that influenced by something happening thousands of miles away that none of his family are involved in.

And he doesn't like those Orientals.

My god, he's been fighting Orientals since I was born.

Not quite, but 1941.

30 years we've been fighting every ounce.

So it just isn't all that disturbing.

Of course, the economic sense is fantastic.

Reading the Convention of Economists today, where they booed poor old Hank Gautaker.

You remember our fellow .

Well, he got up and defended our Vietnam policy.

God bless him.

but he got up and he defended it very hard but that convention of the congress predicted one of the biggest boom years ever

So it's not likely, Mr. President, if the momentum keeps up, it's not likely to turn down that soon.

You know, the problem, though, is to think of a convention of economists, not Leo Henry, you know, better than that, but basically when you look at economists, they're sort of a decent group, aren't they?

It's like the stock market people, that's why they reflect the war in Vietnam as if the war had been in Vietnam.

What the devil difference does it make?

You know what?

The economy has

Oh, yeah, sure.

That's right.

But these people, basically, they're in the upper middle class, social conscience type and all the other things.

What do you think?

Oh, that's true.

That's exactly right.

I would guess we get about 15% of the, really 15% of the academic community, although this year I guess we did better than that.

I think they say, I'm not speaking about the students, but I think the professors, I mean, they get in their bombshellers and they don't want to be on the losing side.

That's all it has to do.

But in their hearts, they're on the other side.

That's the whole point.

They took a poll in Princeton, and my son was telling me 7% of the professors said they voted for you.

93% or whatever?

No, there were a few scattered write-ins.

It was like 90%.

They answered the poll by putting down, you know, ridiculous names.

But you'd have to figure it was 10 to 1, 11 to 1, 12 to 1.

And that is just .

Yeah.

Then they got mad because the fellow that used to work here on the White House, T. Harding Jones, young boy.

Yeah, I think you met him.

You were very impressed with him.

He'd been an intern here.

Oh!

Yeah, he went back and finished the person.

He ran the poll.

And then the faculty .

He put it out.

Great, great, great.

And the faculty wanted to work in arms.

They regarded that as an invasion of their privacy.

No, I'm not sure.

They don't mind polling the public, and they don't mind stealing the Pentagon Papers.

But if you poll them as to how they voted, when they voted— How do the kids, believe me, who go to such schools as Princeton and so forth, come out as well as they do?

How do we get a third of them in an Ivy League school that's 25 or 30 percent?

Even that.

Well, I did.

50% across the country.

Now, how was it dead?

Because the environment, the influence of the faculty is not great on them.

I was up there, Mr. President, a month ago to see my son.

These teachers come in day after day.

The economics, they start talking about Vietnam.

Let's talk about that today.

Let's pray.

Let's have a moment of silence.

Let's have a moment of condemnation.

Yeah, except there were about eight or ten boys that came through my son's room the night I was there.

He

One was the son of a retired Marine officer.

A couple of them were on the crew with my son.

They rode with him, and they're athletic, and they don't pay much attention, all that much, to the faculty.

And they were all friends of my son.

They all voted for you in the election.

You could tell it in their face.

They were the wild-eyed bunch that you see parading there.

You've got to realize, too, that Princeton is infinitely better than Harvard.

Yeah.

Well, the environment is better.

The environment is a little more collegiate.

But a lot of them don't survive.

A lot of them go nutty in college.

Of course, when I was in college, I had a total left wing head of the political science.

I'm just standing and arguing for you and for Joe McCarthy.

I was...

The more liberal Dad would get, the more conservative I'd be.

Well, anyway, the...

Put it in, Dad.

We can have...

We've got to use these four years.

We've got to use it outside and inside in a way that we never reported.

But we were really fighting.

It was a very sinister thing.

They would have taken a hell of a vote if we had given them a ban on this election.

I don't think even maybe we don't even realize.

Maybe they don't realize.

They kind of say that, and then Wallace, the man that we hear, well, what do they mean?

They wish that Wallace had not been shown.

Now, that's very, very high management.

Yeah, sure.

Here they were making noble noises about George Wallace, who four years ago they tore apart as a racist.

And the reason was that if he had run, of course, he would have made this a close election.

We'd have won, but it wouldn't have been.

They'd be gorgeous to landslide.

That Harry McGrory film yesterday, Mr. Archibald.

I agree.

Well, President Nixon is totally abusing his landslide.

He's gone into hiding.

He's doing these rash things.

What do you mean about it?

Do you find what you need or what?

Yeah, you can't find them, and he isn't telling the American people why he found them.

And he's doing these rash, impetuous,

Yeah, yeah.

Nothing new.

But the big news was how badly we had to use the landslide.

They really begrudged us that.

That's what Brody was saying.

I think he was saying, well, if Wallace had been around, who was really speaking to people, then you might have had a different year for it.

And that's what they hate.

They hate that landslide.

Because...

They know you're going to use that, and use it damn well.

And rub it into the boat.

Also, they have, uh, they are, uh, they really hate the fact, too, that we're, uh, that's the other thing we've got to follow up.

We've got to follow up that business about the names they wish they hadn't said.

The dirtiest campaign in history.

If you see that, every time you turn that wheel, as you turn the engine, both of those, uh, keep turning.

You see, that mythology, it's just got to go there every day of the week.

Yeah, we mailed out that tenant piece.

We had 25,000 of that.

Right.

We're getting it.

And as I said, I know when this stuff gets going on, because I do.

But you know, I suppose this is about being in hiding and so forth.

It would make a survivor to go out and get the view on New Year's Eve.

It's still very insane.

Sure.

Of course.

It's actually the typical New Year's Eve.

You know, there's, this is, I have known of the person that, and Sabler's my name, but he's not my name.

He's always been somewhat suspicious, but I mean, but I, but he realized totally now, I said, Rob, there's no way, I said, I said, you're going to realize they're against you, so they're going to be against you for hiding.

They're going to be against you for not having the press conference, or they're going to be against you because you had one and controlled the answers, or you had one and gave bad answers.

They're going to be against it.

You're right.

Every press conference I've had, the letters tear into pieces.

For one reason or another.

Yeah.

They say, well, he was nervous, or he was abusive, or he was expelled.

No, that's right.

There's no way.

So my point is...

to realize you're up against that.

And don't be worried about the dispute.

I think that one of the best things I've done is to stay back on the circulation between, you know, election and inauguration.

I agree on that.

I think it's been just right.

Well, I should only be out there.

No, I think the speech is addressed.

Well, I think the public has another way of not going to games and that sort of thing.

Basically, I felt that there wasn't anything I went off to do one thing, which was fine.

We had one great client reception out there.

That was perfectly proper.

But there's no reason to go out.

This is not the time.

No, I think that people have had enough politics and speech making and also I think that other than two, we've done very well in terms of I hope we've done well in terms of creating the impression we're firing a lot of people and putting us in the woods, but not firing, but changing it.

No, I think the clean sweep has gotten across.

I think that's been

Pretty well, pretty well covered.

That point's been reasonably well made.

It'll be more well made when they get down into the clouds.

Yeah.

You're gonna, I'm glad that you're gonna work on that to be sure that they, I mean, he's checking all those with you, right?

I'll see that they check.

That's it.

A little fun there.

Yeah, that's it.

That's so damn important, you know.

We don't realize, but the head of the Census Bureau, that's a tremendously important job.

The studies he decides to perform, they have a profound effect on this.

Is he one of ours?

Well, we're changing him because he wasn't any good.

He was another one like Ward.

But that's one where I'm going to find a good man.

He had it with Johnson.

I know.

They want him back.

But he's the one who told me.

He said, put a politician in there.

I asked him for one, and he said, you don't have a guy on the Republican side who's got really the tickets to do it, unless you took one of your scholars.

He said, well, he thinks Kevin Brooks is the only guy that understands it.

Oh, no.

he couldn't tell that but that kind of guy somebody who's good has a good grasp of the country's all of it could teeter do it yeah deliverable i wouldn't wasn't i right on my guess on that stuff i'd never be convinced all over that that was his only blind spot i'd say rob or eventually i said good i think this follows him i said i can sense it every time i saw him i said he's on the left

And I get in that, you know, the scamming and stuff.

But don't you agree?

He's not bad, you know, as far as... Oh, yeah, he's a...

He's a little...

He's a gross point suburbanite to liberal Republican.

He's a Republican by birth.

He's just...

It's the social thing to do.

I don't know, guys.

I talked to him.

He would have had us on the wrong side.

He didn't want us to talk about busing.

He didn't want us, of course, to talk about...

This is what Ray Price is like.

This is about marijuana.

Yeah, that's right.

The environment was his big kick.

It was his stuff really that influenced Harper as much as anything.

Although Tina came around on the Catholic issue, Harper never did.

Did Harper not come around?

He must have had a prejudice there.

No, he's a Christian scientist.

Harper is?

I would have guessed it was that's what it is.

Because basically, this is one of the problems that affected early, too, early Christian scientists.

There's an unbelievable hatred between Catholics and Catholics.

Earlier, earlier, it was swallowed up by me, but harder than it ever did.

Obviously, that's what it is.

Now, that's another thing.

I'd like to know what it was that they had the prejudice in the background.

Do you agree?

Yeah.

I don't know what it was.

No, you've got to watch the can.

It'll go too far.

It'll go much too far.

You have to balance it.

But on the other hand, first off, there's the creation science.

Well, it was two weeks before the election.

Oh, yes.

Two weeks before.

Two weeks before the election.

I ran that 9-15 meeting every day to tell people what to go out and do and say.

And the

It was at that meeting that I wanted to run an ad in the Detroit News on busing for the Monday before the election.

And Harper said, no, no, busing is the ninth ranked issue in Michigan.

I was in the middle of a meeting with 15 people in the room.

I came.

They went across the desk and grabbed him by the neck.

I'd never come so close.

I was just so drained.

Oh, sure.

It was a hell of an ad.

And Martin Hayden called me up to say that that

is with thousands of us and of course what happened in michigan is that the blacks didn't go out and vote and all of the white uh suburban coalition italian areas turn it around turn it around it's got rpk

In Michigan.

Including Griffin.

Oh, geez.

Oh, I think we saved, yeah.

I think that you saved Bob Griffin.

You know, they talk about our not doing that for these guys, but my dad, you saved Bob Griffin.

I'm absolutely positive of that.

Virginia and North Carolina, you pulled the men strictly under your coattails.

My God, they were too.

They were the ones who stuck to us all the way.

They stuck to us.

Well, I hope that, what's his name, Helms did after this, but

But he just pulled the net and tripped in there for perhaps all night.

So God, I didn't go in there.

But we had Virginia still locked.

Well, everyone was very ashamed.

And I got all those on our hands by the time we got through.

And I called them on the phone and all that sort of thing.

Sure.

And the ones we didn't save were really not salvageable.

Margaret didn't want to be saved, so she went down that cave.

He would get to the Americans and then call and say, would you be willing to be Secretary of Defense?

Well, he didn't get a call.

And, of course, Miller.

He could be saved.

And Allen was his own worst enemy.

Caleb Hoggs, that's one I think.

I don't know whether a president should visit there and save him, though.

I don't know.

Could have.

No president has ever...

I went there in 52.

I went there in 56.

It would all go to Delaware, right?

And nobody had any indication that he was in that much trouble.

At the end, he did.

There you go.

And we went and talked to you, and you just didn't have the right candidates.

Well, yeah, that was sad, because he was a guy that could have been good.

You were speaking about 74.

I think we might do quite well in 74.

We could.

We could have a good year.

Because it's hard to count the candidates.

I'd like to have in the House 50 candidates below the age of 40.

And for the Senate, 20 candidates below the age of 50.

That would be great.

No candidate.

I have a lot of support for a new candidate above the age of 50 for the Senate or 40 for the House.

No candidate.

That's a tough rule, Chuck, but I'm not voting.

40 for the House.

If you're past 40, believe me, in the House, it is worth it for a man to come.

So that's the point.

You realize that?

Yeah.

Sure.

Because it's going to take 20.

It's taking any man in the House 25 years to get to the leadership of the Senate.

Right?

So he'll be 60, or 20 years at least.

So he comes here and he's 50, and then 20 years later he's 70.

And that's what happens.

That's what most of our people have been.

Awful bunch.

We've got a lot of old guys in the house down there now.

Look at that.

Some of the guys are just great.

Right in the front.

Bill Whitnall.

Whitnall is over 70 years of age.

He falls asleep at meetings.

That's another way to exercise all of them.

And the seventh, they've got a few problems.

Norris Cotton.

I've got you here snoring at me this evening.

He goes to sleep.

And then I, a lot of older people that I know don't do that.

What's the matter with these guys?

Do they stay up too late at night?

Do they drink too much?

What?

Because these are morning meetings.

You know, the Dickens people fall asleep in a meeting.

No, seriously.

That's right.

We can all go.

I've seen this happen.

I know a lot about it.

You can't say nothing because I've seen it.

Another guy has been in it.

It always lets her.

Yeah, let's see it.

Close to his eyes.

Yeah.

And, you know, sort of just swims.

I think it's a...

I guess older people have to do it.

It's bodily function.

It's metabolism.

It's arteries.

Right.

For example, no, it's got this, right?

Well, he gets a little bit, but not heavy.

He just got old.

He got old very fast.

Very fast.

In the early 60s, he was just a wonderful guy.

Oh, yeah.

Great guy.

And great wit.

He used to write the best and cleverest that old New England saw the human.

But he's gotten terribly old.

He won't run again.

He's sick.

I'm sure Cotton is finished.

Okay.

Aitken won't go again.

He's up next time.

No.

We lose a lot.

I hope he doesn't go again.

We win.

You better do it with the young guys.

But not young Liz.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm concerned frankly about Rumsfeld and Finch.

And I don't know anybody better.

But both of them, I think, are going to tilt so far to the left that they'll come down here and just join the Lenski Club.

Hardly enough, Rumso will do it more than Finch.

I agree.

Finch.

Bob has learned a lot from you.

Bob is an organization type man.

But Rumso basically is our organization.

He's an anti-organization, anti-establishment.

But he also appeals to the Winnetka commuter.

That's his profile of the typical American voter.

I know.

He's always said that.

Well, we had a really great young voter back this year.

The strategy must drive voters to crash off the wall.

Totally.

In fact, he's probably got some things he'd like to forget.

It should be in that list of things he'd like to forget.

I'm assuming his predictions are pretty exciting.

Yes, I could do that.

Beginning of last year.

Yeah, that scapegoat is...

I never think that they may have left him out of that.

Just saying.

That's right.

You know, when you think about it, looking back... You know, it's... What are they going to... What are they going to say...

After a win like this and so forth, if you look around the world, who are they going to talk to?

Who are they going to name?

That's right.

They know better.

Oh, sure.

What he was doing at the time, the time was kind of early.

That was just a cop-out.

A disgrace.

It was a cop-out.

It was a disgrace for a time.

I used to do that.

The only thing they didn't want to give you was the

unique distinction of being named Man of the Year two years in a row.

No one else had ever been.

And they just wanted to give you that.

So they, they copied it by putting kisses in.

Awful.

But they did it a few times.

We, uh, put a few in the works.

We see ours, we see them turn up every now and then.

I just saw one of the New York Times, Saturday morning.

The, uh...

The remarkable thing about this year, though, is when you look back just a year ago today, you were mentioning, it really reminds me of it, all the political accountants were saying what if, you know, it was going to be a close election.

Muskie.

Muskie was, it was neck and neck with Muskie.

Right.

Kudnickson survived.

Harris was right in the polls.

Yeah, Harris had his friend, at that point he was out.

The benefit of the doubt, but they were already...

When you think what she did during the year really affected her.

I remember ironically we had just come through a week of bombing.

That's right.

Right after New Year's.

Yeah, between New Year's and Christmas, three days in.

Just a three-day shut-up.

Which is an understated point in time.

This night won't finish.

I don't predict.

I was all ridiculous, you know.

I was hungry.

In the end, what matters is you look back and say, well, how did it come out like that?

You know, Steve Bowles was really tough under that snowy exterior.

He said that.

What's the date?

It's next Friday.

Yeah, I would think he could.

See, I went out.

I don't know if that's going to be all the obvious.

No.

I went out to do wrong.

I went out to pay my respects.

That's why it will not be heavy.

It's why it will be heavy.

In other words, that was a presidential event.

You detract from that by going to pay more than 70.

See, I think we would see, why not pay more?

I don't know how I can do it, unfortunately.

You know, I don't really have a reason to do it.

It's such a beautiful way to be basically on the job and get out of it.

And it must drive for Murray, and that's right up the wall.

It does.

It's very symbolism.

Yeah.

Well, that was the point of your column, that you announced the bombing, and then you went out with Mrs. Nixon to dance at a restaurant.

And that was all you felt that you owed the people, was to let them see you dancing and having a good time.

Her point was that

You know, if you were to, I forgot the language, but something about treating your subjects with contempt.

Bombing one day and then saying the next, well, it doesn't mean your thing is one-up.

Dance and then not talk to the American people.

That's the point was that you, you are hiding behind your own foot.

That's just something you're all here for, though, isn't it?

Oh, yeah.

You know we can't talk to people who choose the right.

Of course not.

It would have been a, it would have been a terrible thing to do.

It would be terrible to say no.

Yeah.

Oh, no, no.

But that's simply the traditional knee-jerk.

That's the truth, Senor.

There's nothing you could ever do that would get you a good comment from the board.

No, we have.

Or from the real world.

Well, I don't hear anything.

What is the situation here?

The press is here.

This is David Nelson.

He's a fellow on the flyers.

And Jerry Warren has scheduled a session since it's such a nice day out in the grass.

It's relatively dry.

We're actually going to take a rest over here outside on the coach.

And what he has here is his two sons, his daughter Jennifer, of course, Mrs. Allen, and Mrs. Allen's parents, Mr. and Mrs. Felix Rosso, who are in France.

Okay.

They were in about a week and a half ago with Mrs. Allen to see the Christmas decorations.

Well, they already did.

They saw the Christmas decorations.

Yes, sir.

Mrs. Allen and her parents.

Oh, so.

But I believe the Christmas decorations are down now.

Well.

There it is.

I'd like to photograph outside.

It would be nice to do that.