Conversation 830-006

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All right, sir.

That was light and good spirits.

Oh, you're doing the shower.

Oh, yes.

Please, may I go through that?

Four years of practice.

Sit there.

Johnson loves humans and memorial services.

If he could come, I think I would benefit from that.

Dick started out by saying, I don't know, you've got to get out of this.

No negatives on the den, son.

Oh, shit.

What's the matter with him?

That's the big reason Dick was there.

No, that's Dick.

And then he said, well, he said, I admit, but he was a black man.

He was a black man.

Well, that's right.

That's it.

him in a sense.

Neither of you go, you're in a sense, you in effect wouldn't go because you wouldn't put the burden on him.

and he developed a very good rationale.

He said he affected the exploiting of the funeral for publicity.

He said Truman is very popular right now and memory affected.

say, he said, one week ago, tomorrow, he tried to take it away.

It's just, it's a bad story.

That war, listening to Skelly, reluctantly came around.

He said, you know, I agree.

It's a bad choice either way.

But let's get out of that bad

I think you would have to...

Many of the Truman Democrats are our Democrats.

That's the only political argument I have.

I know, I know.

But I've been out.

They all suddenly go out there.

That was a hell of a gesture to fly out there 36 hours in the Christmas season.

That's correct.

Fly the hell out there the day after Christmas.

So... And I feel very much like Scouting does, that it's too much.

And...

unnecessary, and with the Sayer thing, I'll be goddamned if I get to the satisfaction, frankly.

I just wanted to tell Allison that it's not my intention to go, and I just wanted to be...

I understood that he was not coming.

And that you thought... And I thought that we both should not...

I wanted to say what I was going to say was that...

Uh, well, like I, uh, you'd think I'd hear that.

I just, uh, saw our friend Beatty, and I told him that you were waiting for him to come out and call me.

Hey, listen, that's something, you know.

He's, uh, he's feeling, I'll tell you, he's feeling very low, and I mean, he was 60 years old the other day.

And, you know, you don't know Beatty.

He just, I said, Beatty, you can't talk about being a young blade.

He ain't a blade anymore.

Ha!

Don't you worry about it.

It's going to come out all right.

These people are now coming back to the table in a very, we think, constructive frame of mind.

And they better.

As you know, I'm sure you feel the same way.

We've got to get this finished in the right way and not the wrong way.

That's what you did try to do.

That's what I'm trying to do.

I appreciate it.

Let me ask you to tell you one thing that I figured on the call.

We've been in touch with myself, with Tom Johnson.

As you know, I attended the, went out to Independence for the, to Larry, and as you did, we both did the same day at the private services.

Under those circumstances, it was not my intention

to attend the public memorial service here, which is mainly for the diplomatic representatives and for, of course, members of Congress who could not go to the private service.

Now, on the other hand, I understood, Tom, that you were not coming.

If you were coming, I didn't want it to appear that I was not coming.

But could you tell me what your plans are?

Yeah.

It would seem to me, I think you agree, that we both have basically attended the service.

And look, I rather thought we were exploited and we just went again, you know what I mean?

Or how do you feel?

I don't want anybody to think that we were affirming President Truman because of... Ah, good.

Well, you did exactly the same.

and myself, and you feel that, and you feel as far as I'm concerned, and as far as you're concerned, you will not be there, and I will follow the same line here, and I'll tell Terry Warren to say that, with the understanding that both of us will not go there.

Either one, either of us win, then somebody would say the other ought to be there.

See my point?

Right.

Now, I will not be at the box.

I just can't get away there.

But Pat will be there, so she may see you there.

Are you worried about that?

Right.

Look, your team won.

I saw that game.

Texas came back and won.

Yeah, yeah, don't you yell at him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, boy, thank you.

Goodness, I called you at the wrong time.

They said, well, let me tell you this.

I still have that invitation for you to use that place in Florida.

Because old B.D.

is a great guy to have around.

He cheers people up.

He never brings up any unpleasant subjects.

It's good to talk to you and give our best to Lady Bird and to her.

Also to that little boy, that future president I had in here.

Will you give him my best?

Tell him not to run with 35.

Okay.

Sure.

Oh, it'll come out.

It'll come out.

Thank you.

Let's do it again.

Just like you said.

Let's get it handled.

Well, the way to handle it, Mr. President, there's two ways to handle it.

One is to say that

Vice President Agnew will be representing me, but I'm not done.

He goes in his own right.

Well, the president has attended.

The president has attended the... Yeah, I think the way to do it is put it in the most positive way.

I think if we could get it out in the name of President Johnson, our president actually will be attending the services here since they went in.

We have both gone to Independence there, at this service, at the request of the family, at the request of the family.

I don't think you need to tell the family or any of those family people about this here.

Don't you agree?

No, I don't.

I think Jerry's attended this in a very low-key way.

I think when Cormier was on in Missouri, he was going to give the eulogy.

And maybe what Jerry does is to just answer Cormier and say, Frank, you're sure he was wrong.

Obviously, the president isn't going.

Obviously, because he went to independence.

Neither former President Johnson nor President Nixon.

Why don't you let him sit here a little bit more?

Yeah, we're in front of him.

Let it run.

It's not a decision.

It's fine.

Yeah, he did.

He said, I have to agree that there's a little less negative in not going than going.

He said, there's a negative either way.

But he said, Dick is always this way.

Dick figures take the least risk, and if you go, who can criticize you for going?

That's it.

Well, if I go, like those very press things I've gone to, and so everybody laughs,

I think he handled it in sort of an odd course.

I don't know if that will work.

Of course, he went into the...

I don't think it's too bad to say that, too.

Well, if he has no objection, I'm sure he will.

He only has no objection.

Well, then I will do it.

Because I would say the president, the president talked to President Johnson, and he would agree that since they had attended the services and had gone to independence and paid their respects there, that they would not attend the public's minimum wage services.

be a private service in Independence and have requested the President's participation be in that private way.

In other words, the family did request that I get my respect set by the President.

It was fine.

I didn't push for it.

The family had requested it to be private that way.

members of Congress, members of the diplomatic corps, members, no, not members of the international, members of the foreign governments, and others who were unable to make a difference, who were unable to pay the respects of their friends.

I'd like to think that they've had a very, one of you, maybe better, better get it slipped out tonight,

The way he made it the least kind is for someone to ask Ziegler in the morning, and he worried him.

That's the appropriate way.

President Johnson, the president, actually kind of agreed that they were willing to pay their respects.

They were willing to pay their respects privately on the private services, which they had done.

Immediately following his dispatch.

That's right.

I can listen to him.

He'll be a little... Oh, sure.

Just a little laugh about the thing.

And that would be unfair to Johnson to, uh, you know, and he would say that I talked to President Johnson about it, which, you know, I didn't even go back and look at it.

I discussed it with President Johnson, and he, he used it.

See, that's a very good question, what he did with Johnson.

I discussed it with him.

He talked, uh, and we, I don't, I think it just, you know, we should go beyond that.

Yeah.

That's the way Ziegler can do it.

Better than Warren.

Warren would make sense.

Ziegler would look about.

That's what you need.

Just get a little bit irritated.

Even suggest that.

You've got to know that this is man's business.

They want us to grasp the feet from the doors of victory.

They would, uh...

It's the principle.

I mean, I...

It's very discouraging.

Yeah, but the citizens are only going to have elections now.

Oh, it is.

Did, uh... Did I take over the governor?

You said the governor called in today, as you said, that he's going to introduce a resolution.

Uh, agreed with that.

Demanded.

Have you seen it?

No, I haven't.

Demanded that the president, without...

It appeared before the Senate.

Answered.

Oh, shit.

That'd be great, wouldn't it?

Secret session.

Imagine having a secret session.

Isn't that a thing?

I don't think that hurts.

No, I hope.

I couldn't think of anything I'd rather have do.

I know, but can I suggest this?

There's one thing that you miss about it in the greater ground here, and that is, yeah, I hope it doesn't work on you.

Oh, absolutely.

Let's not take this lightly.

Let's not give the impression.

Let's get this idea.

I put it in my car.

I said, Mike, you said it.

And the sign does it.

It jeopardizes the situation.

So it's very close to a success.

I said, you can't say it.

I said, I won't say it.

I'm not going to raise any false hopes.

But I can assure you that it is.

That's why I made it.

And if the Senate doesn't satisfy any responsibility, this happens.

I've looked at this from before.

But see what I mean?

We'll get there.

Somebody's got to say to the Senate, to the Congress, this is most irresponsible.

And it usually ain't covered with the eye.

But it starts getting rough.

I don't know why we have to do this.

We really ought to have them.

Well, this is just in correlation.

I'll get it right back.

On the Clementi fund, the consensus is that it's a damn good idea to start, not to announce that you have made the first contribution.

but rather let it leak out.

And then let the White House, let Zika say, well, we won't confirm it because we haven't disclosed charitable contributions to the President.

The difficulty is that your check has already been delivered to the Nicaraguan ambassador, which means that we can't funnel it through.

read it after we announced the Roberto Clemente Memorial Fund.

And then let someone from here, Klausen, tell him to come back.

He loves to talk.

Oh, we would.

But first, get out the story that you wrote this and issued it and recorded it.

And after doing so, thought to yourself, this is

That way we can tie it into the... How do they get this thing started?

I suggested to Dick Moore that he and one of my young fellas get over Frank Dale, who they can talk with the easiest.

Have Dale contact Galbraith and let three or four of the owners get together to do it.

And then get some players to do tape recordings like Frank Robinson, who's black, and...

It'll get a hell of a lot of publicity.

Then let it out that he was major, which we wouldn't do until this was announced first.

They will say that the president suggested this.

Yes, I would think that the deal I've read up to the president suggested forming a memorial fund.

And he asked for the help.

And then he said he wouldn't do it.

In response to the query, he simply said, we don't ever talk about it.

Yes, he just made a contribution.

Yeah, or just say he's not even, he wouldn't even answer whether, I mean, the amount or anything else.

Refused to confirm it, not his confirmation.

That's right.

contributions but uh people who receive it will it's like a personal letter i talked to sally about that letter he said that he thinks kilmer is going to take it out there this weekend so it's up to him yeah so if his letter is private i wouldn't want anybody to hurt the uh story in any way it should be handled as personal i'd love to get it up i will well it is

We'll, we'll, I mean, without us... You see, the way it has to be done is somebody's got to ask which we can arrange.

And then, of course, we'll get a girl who's, I guess, a little girl.

She'll probably be at the Super Bowl, which means that she would be happy, maybe.

They look too bad.

Oh, yeah.

It's a terrible piece.

I can't believe that NBC wouldn't use that.

We'll see.

We'll try to find out.

To me, that's the fact that it was the first thing.

Yes, we should.

Just like this Nicaraguan relief.

Yes, sir.

Dick Moore said that he's not alive.

He's a great guy, but he's not.

No, I had a hold of his briefing until he got it done, so I'm sure he did.

Dick Moore heard from a friend of his who said he heard it on the radio, but it was a great friend of his.

Heard it on the radio, so we know it's out.

That was the end of it.

Governor Wallace is going back in for another operation shortly.

Is 6-1.

I'm sure.

You know, that may not be a good sign.

He's continuing to have internal infections.

He may not be in very good shape.

I don't know what that means.

Well, I think a few of those soldiers we want to bring.

I don't think he can.

I really don't.

We know that Charlie Sider did a really good job.

That break is permanent.

I think I'll get Jack Marsh coming into the Pentagon.

He'd be terrific.

Well, he's going to have a job.

We've approved him here.

It's just a question of Elliott taking him, and I think Elliott will.

He's a former congressman.

Elliott will take him as his legislative assistant secretary.

If Marsh can do the job, it'll be all right.

No, I got to agree.

I agree.

He's too serious.

Way too easy, slow.

I don't know why.

He's a congressman.

I don't know why.

I'm just certain.

He works at a different place.

He's not a stat man.

Well, he's not a...

He's not a...

He's a damn good man.

He handles people beautifully, but he's not a ass-kicker.

I've been thinking all day about that, too.

The main job of all of us has to be to keep that schedule from running away.

But John is a great fellow.

But I think you've used the time well from Congress and other hands.

What I meant is

wants to say yes to every asshole, interior minister, anybody else that comes in here.

We're not going to do it.

We've got to cut those governors, all of our students, people, and go to see the people that serve our interests.

That's right.

Absolutely.

But I must say, as a congressional minister, I mean, yes.

I hope we can get our own congressmen, senators, Republicans to shut up to the balance of action.

I'm talking to you.

They talked to most of our key people.

And as a matter of fact, going through it, we had lawyers.

We got very good.

And rather than giving us any figuratives, we got damn good reactions.

Okay.

Well, I don't know.

I'll tell you about it.

I just want to be sure.

Tim is a darn good operator.

He's just awesome.

Oh, yeah, it works like hell.

They don't have to quarrel over this.

He's superior.

He was the first choice I gave all of them to take my dad.

Really?

But he's too valuable to handle in the Senate.

But he's a well...

Tom's very good.

He's got a good wit.

I don't know, buddy.

Could he do the de-adaptative?

Oh, he needs a deputy.

Oh.

Tom is, uh, Carlos is heavy enough.

Uh, I don't know.

I guess he can't be a deputy very well.

He's working with his son.

That's important, man, his son.

I don't know anybody else.

and does it very, very well, extremely well.

He's about what we want at this point, in my view.

I mean, particularly what we're going to do on the outside.

George Bush will get the place intervention.

I would hope that AEI would be in place, you know.

That's going well.

What you can do...

I should think you could do quite a bit more.

Every time others, we call them, we call them, we call them the head of the BMW.

Oh, it's very insensitive.

That's all that's necessary.

I mean, if they know that... Well, you could just say it.

Like you said, that's what I just wanted to say.

I guess they use it very usually.

I guess these people know.

If they see that I'm keeping involved in things that are...

Right.

That even count.

And Bob and I have talked about that.

Yeah, that's something that's tripping.

I wonder.

That will become a hell of a lot more important than what Johnson was talking about.

Well, he tried to do it all, so he didn't actually do it.

No, but I mean, he gave up after that.

He shouldn't have given up.

He should have stayed.

And he would have won, you know.

I think Johnson would have won.

He would have won his nomination.

He would have won the election.

Yeah, because he beat himself at that point.

He was a very, my gosh, I went back and looked at some of his old press conferences.

He was a whipped man.

If he had tried to run in the campaign, he was thinking too personally.

So the career of the campaign would have been different.

We would have been gaining all the time in the past in October instead of starting up in the country, recovering.

Now, we will have a lot of speeches in the next couple of days raising him about the war and so forth and whatever this thing tonight.

We'll have a Congress tomorrow, and we'll make speeches about it.

But we just have to write it through.

Thank God for August.

They have no silence for one day.

And truly, they won't have a session tomorrow.

so I don't... Well, of course you can do that.

They're going to have their fight over their leadership positions, and organization will take a lot of the news.

That would be a surprise, I guess.

It would surprise them.

Well, anyway, that's your statement.

What I know is that it was to find a way to keep Henry buoyed up, and at the same time, control.

I must say, I can't get back to the minority group.

I know he is.

I'm sure he is.

Henry has gotten to the point.

He's living too many lives.

Henry has gotten to the point where he can say that and it doesn't...

I'm not even sure he knows he's saying it.

Once he called in for me, and I pretty said I was going to come with you.

He knew damn well I was coming back.

I'll lay him on his back.

I don't think he would have known Rustin.

Yeah, he might.

Well, as Skelly once said, Rustin's the only one he really talked to in Paris.

He does admire Rustin, and he considers Rustin to be the principal in him, although when Rustin says it, then they all follow along.

Yes.

I'm not even sure if he would say he has to deny it.

I think Henry would be going into it quite candidly saying this is on background.

And you can't quote me directly, but this bombing, this bombing,

And then Henry would say, I've never hit it with a person.

I've never hit it with a person.

I'm a faithful servant to him.

And then you could take it and just go off and make a conclusion, well, the poor guy just dragged it with him.

I mean, the whole sum of that count is that he was being a loyal servant, dragged into doing something that he didn't want.

Because a stubborn president wouldn't agree with peace that was good.

And Henry could say, I'm never grateful to the president because if I ever really wrote the whole story, it would be embarrassing to him.

He doesn't even do it without malice.

It's just a compulsive personal reaction.

But it's the kind of thing that says you have to be terribly careful.

I think over the next few weeks, or he'll crack on one hand, or he'll do more and more of this.

I'm glad.

I think he hasn't called me since Sunday morning.

That's good.

But he's just...

You know, it's interesting to me, though, that I'm not a big fan of the rest of it.

He didn't think it was that bad.

He saw it and said, well, it was a favorable company.

Sure.

And as I began to go to it, he said, it was a terrible thing.

It was a terrible impression.

Then I could hear him going up to it, and then at the end he said, well, he also knew Dan well, and he wouldn't have been calling him.

No question You shouldn't tell the war

The story that the group headed by President Nixon's chief Florida fundraiser announced Tuesday it will file a rival application for the operating license of television station WJST, which is now held by a subsidiary of Washington Post.

It's not a group of concerned citizens.

That's Jacksonville.

and had quite a contest.

Miami, I guess so, announced today, or tomorrow.

But that'll close the post.

The thought of me and them was, well, our people can afford it.

They said, is it worth it?

Is it really worth our money?

No.

I've told them this.

I've told them what their chances are.

Their chances are good in the commission.

They will lose in court of appeals.

And this...

They have a very slim chance, except if the whole community gets behind the idea of reinvesting the profits.

That might have some appeal.

But these people want to go ahead, even knowing the odds.

I think they want to raise over the post.

And this is George Yankee and Jim here today.

going to do some, you know, some minimum effort kind of stuff, but it puts the post on it.

It puts the burden of the post to defend themselves, and they'll, the post will spend a fortune on this.

Meanwhile, we, while that's going on, you take them on a couple of other fronts.

I just, I told you to get that stock ordered.

Oh, I did that.

I mean, that's, that's one of the great virtues of having Shapiro and Dixie, because they're

No, I want to.

I want to.

You ought to be very open about it.

I said yes to your goddamn rights.

I'm not going to watch the Post.

You see what I mean?

Oh, absolutely.

And you see, we haven't had that.

We haven't.

That's what I said.

We.

The only thing that was fun in my view.

He shouldn't have had to say the truth.

We're going to call him that.

I don't know how you're going to do that from the outside.

How are you going to do it?

Well, we have a small group that will be the PR apparatus.

Really?

Oh, yeah.

Bob knows about this.

Great.

That's what I'm learning about then.

How do we get in touch with that group?

Bertie will call you.

Bertie will call me or you'll start working directly with them.

Well, wait a minute.

It's the same problem.

I don't want Baruti.

I don't want, well, they won't say anything.

Well, except you see, Mr. President, the things that I, I don't want Baruti to call.

I don't want the White House to call me.

I don't want stories to occur in the White House that a White House man, Baruti, is not working with the group in this job yet.

The only thing, I did a hell of a

I had a pretty good apparatus.

I just want it done.

Let's do it.

The key to it, if I may say so, is to be damn sure that the things you do are done in such a way

I would never, if I had known about that, I would have fallen down the doorway and blocked somebody from doing it because it was inevitable you'd get caught.

You can't put five men to that goddamn building without getting caught.

And no matter how much you protest in a campaign, you're going to get through it.

You couldn't have ten people between us and the Watergate and not have us submit land.

Sure.

The mistake of the Watergate was whoever said do it.

explosion.

Segretti, in a way, the same thing.

The only way to handle Segretti is somebody far removed from us to set that up.

And that you can do.

and easy to find a way to cash your guy with us.

But you see, I did things that were awesome.

We did some blackmailings, and my god.

I'll go to my grave before I'll ever disclose it, but we did a hell of a lot of things.

I'd never have thought the damn things that were, the things that blew up and became newsworthy were things that we just did together.

They were super duper large.

Oh.

Sure, I mean, because they're used to it.

But our people are just a little goddamn non-human by nature.

But you had one of the men, you had one of the men that came through the line at your Christmas tree wedding reception that ran 15 or 25 projects in the other boards, and that will never be traced.

You know what?

And that's the way to do it.

You see, Rudy is used to that.

Rudy is a mill layer.

He taught him.

He spent eight years on the hill with layers.

Four years over here with layers.

And he's a tough kid.

He worked his way up.

He scrambled.

Went through Holy Cross.

He's not a smooth, good, easternist, ambition type kid.

I can work with Bill.

I can perfect that.

You know, lack of solid behavior.

I thought I was right about that.

Because he's pretty, he comes on strong.

Bob and these guys are young men.

They can take a little lack of solid.

Well, you know, Bill, I always find that's not a...

It shouldn't be long.

Yeah, you've got to do a bit of that.

Hell, we would have.

We would never have had a perfect school.

You know, there was another case in point.

We had a massive letter of Catholic parents.

And then they grabbed one and went out to the hut.

That kind of stuff, we never get caught up in.

So it can be done.

The key is just don't let people go off and don't let people inside authorize stupid things.

Take time to do them right.

As you point out, the Democrats have been doing this spectacularly well for years and never get caught up.

which are considered to be perfectly, you know, good fun.

That's what they call it.

They dress around Halloween.

Well, this is, this is, you can't tolerate that, really.

That's the thing that's very tough about it.

I do think the one thing that you have to continue to do from the White House, because there's no other place to do that, is when we, when we leave, people on the Hill that come in are,

Our people have this.

Yes, for Bush.

I do think that we could use, I think we're going to have to use Bush a little more, because I don't think, frankly, if Mother Poland is recycled, I don't think that that's just not going to be a proxy.

Carlos, you know, one of Johnson's, he says, one of Johnson,

He doesn't have the sense of theater.

He doesn't have enough time to follow the essential music.

See, Corlow was running a campaign.

He worked on the Hill while he worked on the Hill, but not in a political job.

He worked on a committee staff.

That's different.

An A.A. did a tough senator in a tough state.

And that's where he gets you.

That's where Kennedy was.

Kennedy was very wise.

When he was elected, just strictly Hill was the best A.A.

He did it.

He did it for, and I thought he used them very effectively.

He had them all around in sensitive spots, and they at least knew politics.

He didn't use them for legislative reasons.

He used them because they had to run tough campaigns.

And that's the way to cut you, as you know, California politics.

How many days do you have for Republicans?

I don't know.

Well, Gorla, this is not the only good one.

There aren't any, that's the problem.

Who did he work for?

Bennett.

Bennett always turned out good people.

Very interesting.

There's another one that's too old.

No.

He was the last time he ran.

Yeah, he didn't, I think he just ran.

Ran in 68, ran with the...

He was in 68?

Yeah, he ran with a verdict.

He ran in 72 again.

No, no, no.

He wasn't up this time.

He must have gone again.

No, he's up this next time.

He said he was three or four years old.

He must have killed him.

But he's old.

He is old.

Wonderful guy, just old.

Well, that's how we lose them, you know.

A guy like that runs one time too many...

Well, you gotta go after their old guys.

I think any man of 70 can be beaten.

I think any man of 70 can be beaten by a good man.

I agree.

I beat him and I fight the age thing right out of him.

I'm just saying, he's a fine man.

He's too old.

That's how...

He underran.

But the jury, he went down right on the age issue.

Margaret's son.

Age issue.

Age issue killed several of his sons.

Hell of a lot.

I think it could have affected Allen.

Yeah, because Allen... Allen has looked old over 20 years.

Crouching.

You know, in short temper.

Negative whining.

And Miller was lost because he was too goddamn lazy.

I think.

Yeah, he admits it.

He's not an old-time French girl.

He didn't campaign hard.

He's been involved in some church that sunk him in Iowa.

He had, like, a very...

Sure.

Yeah.

Extremely.

Isn't it a crime of the greater than the Senate?

Yeah.

God, what a great secretary.

What a great senator.

Maybe a real leader.

Anyway, did he ever get into any place?

Did he move to another state?

How about his living in Maryland and taking on this son of a bitch, Matthias?

No, we're serious.

I'm not kidding.

Is it out of the question?

I'm not sure Clark is a servant for it, to be perfectly honest.

Clark is.

Now you think he wants a good life, do you?

I think he wants to make a little money.

He thinks he's got himself a good job.

I don't know why the hell he did it, to be perfectly honest.

This job?

Yeah.

I can't believe it.

Well, you should have asked me.

I mean, of course, this is the last he talked about, but I don't think he called him.

I'd have to give him good advice.

Clark is worth a person's price that much money.

For God's sake, send his lawyer.

I would have guaranteed him that way.

Send my friend's lawyer.

I'm going to be honest with you.

I'm trying to be a lawyer.

That's where you're going to be.

There's a liquor crisis.

He gets a free liquor.

Here he is.

A lobbyist for a corporation that's in the defense business.

I wouldn't take him as a client.

What's he got?

$100,000?

$100,000 is not anything.

It is nothing.

But you see, Clark has made, what, $42,500 for a long time.

He's never made money.

He's 51 years old.

I know.

Good God almighty, I can assure you.

I know.

But he's selling out too cheap.

Well, I told him.

I almost told him.

Listen, it's a bad thing.

Talk to him again.

I think he should change his mind.

He should practice law.

He can make more money.

And also have more freedom.

Can he be a hell of a guy?

I think Clark, I mean, I could.

If I could ship Clark tomorrow, I'd have made more than he's doing.

He's the kind of guy that can make himself a couple hundred thousand dollars a year for actual.

Yes, he can.

I bet you $200,000.

But you're not sure.

Yes, sir.

I do.

But he could represent you out of here, perhaps, if he wants to, otherwise.

I'll talk to Clark.

He's a bit cold, huh?

He wanted it to look like he was...

But he had decided that long before America, this sort of thing doesn't happen in one day.

Well, he decided it... No, he decided it in the middle of the... middle of October, really.

Why didn't he decide it so soon?

I think he wanted the day the campaign was over.

He only wanted one job, basically, as you know.

Johnny John.

He knew he couldn't get it.

Bob told him not.

And so he just took the first quarter and saw him.

It's too bad he couldn't get it.

Oh, he'd be great.

He'd be tremendous.

He'd be down the road.

He could be.

He's a superb guy.

Enormous capacity.

He's the only guy I know who I can't do it.

I take my hat off to him.

He's 10 years older than I am.

He can go out at night and drink until 2 in the morning.

Does he drink?

I've never seen him.

And, uh,

And be up the next morning at 8 o'clock.

Well, he's got an enormous deceit.

I can do one or the other.

He's a big, strong man.

And a great deceit.

And he's got, of course, he's got kind of a personality that runs it off.

And he's a tough guy.

He's a strong man.

He does let it run off, and that's it.

Oh, and let him speak.

I really think he ought to consider representing him and being a lawyer.

You know, you could do something.

You could do representation for God Almighty.

You know, take other clients, too.

Why don't you talk to me a little about it, please?

I've heard that we can't.

He's a guy that we can't have in the back of our minds.

I think we should get it confirmed, don't you think?

Not immediately, but after.

No, but I can't.

A year from now, yes.

That's what I meant.

I don't think you can do it right after.

That's what I mean.

Well, you have a warning in here.

That's what you had.

Oh, sure.

More so than with me.

Any of us who had to have a hearing.

That's right.

We can't sign anybody down for a hearing.

I forgot about the Watergate thing.

Oh, no.

The case will be over.

It's decided.

And I guess that's another thing I've realized.

It's a damn crime.

Once a year, there'll be something going on there.

We're going to make a little bit of money and put it away.

For him, it'll be a help because he doesn't have any money.

Thank God.

Watergate, he is totally fine.

He came in afterwards.

That's right.

After he came in afterwards.

That's right.

He came in, he came in and crashed out the boat after they were apprehended and everything else.

He came in after the whole thing.

They didn't blow.

We didn't put him on the job until after it blew.

No, but he was, it was a good two weeks in there before, maybe even three weeks after this just because he was asking.

He asked about it at the time.

Yeah, yes he is.

Yes, sir.

He is.

He'd be great.

Wouldn't you love to see him up there as a leader?

He'd really cheer him on.

He'd be great.

Great leader.

Yeah, and the enthusiasm that won't quit.

Good judgment.

I mean, he gets a little too carried away.

Oh, well.

But his enthusiasm has to be carried away at times.

Otherwise, he's not.

He can't inspire enthusiasm unless he himself is an enthusiastic guy.

I know the time.

I just know that's part of the problem with most of our staff.

They're basically unenthusiastic types.

That's one of the reasons they're very competent.

But they don't inspire many people.

You know what I mean?

We're that way around here.

And I understand people coming in.

You've got to cheer them up.

That should be the truth.

Yeah, Clark was always the guy.

He's the cheerleader.

Yeah, any guy.

He's the cheerleader.

George Bush is the Russian champion.

But they both have a spark of enthusiasm.

But, damn it, you need it in politics.

You've got to have something that really triggers it.

No, I just get back to that man's, you know, what I agreed, pressing conversation.

I'm a terrible father.

All your friends, Mr. Preston, I feel, and I have a responsibility to tell you, any of your friends, I think as well as my wife will agree with me, are terribly concerned about the war.

What do you want?

Do you have an answer?

I said, well, I've had that thought for a long time, my wife.

He's gotten very dour, thanks to...

It's always been dour.

Worse.

I mean, I think Mike used to be a...

He was somber, but he was never quite so negative.

He's gotten very negative.

But he's getting out of the years, right?

That's right.

He'll be in next time.

He was in World War I, so he's got to be...

He's got to be self-helping.

But I'll tell you one thing that's very important to me.

I mean, to say that you and some of this group has got to sit down and sort of, there's got to be no sensitivity on, because Bush will have to be the chairman basically all the time.

He's got to get Bush and Brock and Brock himself and Chuck and Gregory and all of them.

And he's got to sit down there and do some things that he said recently.

The Senate and House campaign committees cannot endorse the Congress.

Others can.

They can have a hell of a deal.

They've got to do it.

But the candidate selection is the key, Mr. President.

Last year, just this time of week,

We ran a fellow for Brad Morse's district.

We should not have won that district.

We lost it.

We lost it by 12,000 votes.

He won it against John Kerry.

Great.

He doesn't look very impressive.

You met him when you had a picture taken, Polo Cronin.

Right.

He's sort of retiring.

He appears retiring in sort of slight bills.

But he's a very devout Irish Catholic.

He's a hardliner.

How do you win him?

He'd be carried by saying, if I'm elected, I'm going to carry the flag right side up and not upside down.

He'd just kick the hell out and carry it.

He was behind in the polls by 14 or 15 points in September.

Worked like hell.

Hell of a campaigner.

Smart, very smart guy.

Not an imposing person, but very smart.

You see, that kind of a candidate can win that district.

which was a traditionally Democratic history.

Brad Morris held onto it.

I mean, because he was Brad.

And you could do that.

You could pick areas around the country.

A couple in Connecticut.

We just should never have lost.

We lost.

We lost a couple there.

We should have won every single Connecticut.

Every country.

We won the state 60-40.

Yes, sir.

60-40.

What, in the name of God, was the trouble?

The machine gun boys and everything.

What, in the name of God, was the trouble there?

The machine worked for every office except Congress.

I mean, we swept the legislation.

We did.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, you gave Nestle, my God, you gave him Republican House or Republican Senate.

He's never had it so good.

And quite a sign of the times, actually.

I mean, there's a safe test here.

But what we did is we did not put up good candidates.

Because back at the time, when we were running the candidates, nobody thought that we would sweep Connecticut.

Nobody wanted to run.

That's right.

And two districts that

We had no visits.

I mean, we picked up one seat, but we should have picked up four.

Well, I assumed we wouldn't pick up.

I did, too.

I mean, that was one I had in the bank, and the only one we picked up was a guy that Tommy Muskell got to run.

Good man.

Oh, we got just two.

We got two now?

No, we've got three.

We've got Steel.

Oh, how many seats are there?

Six.

Oh, six.

No, it's not three.

But we should have six.

I mean, there's three districts that could be picked.

But it can be done.

This group, at the right point, you've got to get in their charge, in their marching order.

And I can help in the Northeast.

McGregor can help in the Midwest.

Get out and just start the right candidates.

We're in a very different spot.

That should be on the list.

That should be a steady process of picking up seats.

Yeah.

It will be.

You know, it's a sign of the times, really, that I watched Mandel on television yesterday.

He was having a New Year's reception.

And he was asked about his next year as governor.

And he said, well, we're going to straighten out the fiscal affairs of the state.

And we're going to stop any tax increases.

Vestal is campaigning now a very conservative kick.

Is he?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, god.

Of course, he's a very strong conservative.

Yeah, we're a politician.

But in states like Connecticut and Maryland, the governor isn't talking about new health plans.

He's not talking about new educational plans.

They're talking about stopping spending and keeping the services of government down.

Are you?

Yes, sir.

I think even, I really think.

We got right on the charge, and we didn't need it.

Yep.

No, but it was the only victory we had, and I never was too happy about it.

Oh, did it do any harm?

No.

It helped us with a lot of the mayors and others.

It helped us to have a good system.

I hope the pressure is with the federal government.

I'm going to clarify one thing about getting Winder and H.E.W.

back.

And also Winder and H.E.W.

and H.E.W.

And so have captains.

You know what I mean.

They're not cutters.

They're not called Branger.

California Branger.

He's better than them, I'll tell you.

Well, if he doesn't...

He got Kroger.

And Kroger, he can't do any better than Kroger.

Kroger will cut that son of a bitch.

Transportation, I mean, well, I mean, I say cut it as much as you can cut it.

What, transportation?

My God.

He's got the...

urban mass transit.

You've got 110,000 employees.

You've got the fat galore in that department.

Is there too many employees?

Yeah, I think it's overstaffed.

I think the urban mass transit, we have to have that.

Yeah, you have to by statute, but you can slow down how much is done with it.

Money-wise, that's an area that I think could be

The department was a conglomeration of a whole lot of other government agencies that all were over in the Federal Railroad Administration.

Several thousand employees.

There was a hell of a lot of programs I've talked about.

The other guy that's going to do a lot of cutting for you is Keith Brennan.

Really?

Yes, sir.

I can't believe it.

Oh, hell, he looked at some of the figures that OMB had given up for cuts, and then he went over there and talked to the people.

And he went up to OMB.

He came back with a bigger personnel cut in one area than they had thought possible.

Oh, he doesn't like bureaucrats.

Oh, he hates them.

Yeah, but you take a man out of the building trades environment who's worked his way up, who's seen the guards at the man's house, and he just hates that.

And he's also had to contend with them because they've come into New York and told him that...

He isn't hiring enough wives here.

You know, dictation from the bureaucrats.

In fact, the whole labor movement has gotten more conservative this week.

But Simmons is the same thing.

Jesus, but Simmons has gotten very, very, his favorite phrase is, get the government off our back and hand out of our pockets.

These people, this is the new conservative.

And that's why a guy like Nestle is riding very high in Connecticut.

That's why Mandel, the liberal Jew, was stuck in the way he is now.

I think there's a, I think there's a change.

I really did.

I think, and that's why that Horn interview was so good, because you, you struck the right chord.

That's what Wallace was talking about in many respects.

You know, the point he had at bureaucrats and carrying peanut butter sandwiches in their briefcase.

do resent them.

How could they be such good fans of the Redskins?

You know, I'd like to know who the Redskins crowd is.

How much do you think is a great government?

It can't be that very much.

Because the bureaucrat basically is not much of an enthusiastic guy.

The bureaucrat usually follows the state in an easy way, Chuck.

Oh, you're right.

It's like the ministry or anything else.

That's right.

Teachers, same thing.

Very few dedicated, really dedicated public servants stay in the bureaucracy because it drives them out.

No, I don't, I think that's...

There must be some other people that go there and work for the residents.

There must be, I know there must work in the auto body shops.

Well, you know, you've got a pretty big local community here now.

You've got... You've got the people who feed the government.

Sure, you've got contractors and...

This is a very big service industry now.

And you could look at that crowd as they panned it on television.

They love it on television.

No, I watch them now.

A lot of lower-middle-income, very ordinary folks, and the Redskins have caught their...

They're standing in line out there by the hour.

They were great.

Tremendous.

And you were right yesterday.

It's more than just Washington.

They've caught the country's imagination.

I think they have.

Yeah, they did.

Like the Pirates did two years ago.

Yeah.

See?

Like the Pirates.

It's the underdogs.

They come from behind.

That appeals to the... Well, at least Alex has been in the playoffs for five years.

About time somebody knocked him off.

Like beating everybody?

Yes, it's the same thing.

Broke the final game.

Everybody cheered.

You know, McGarrett, he could play it smart.

He had an underdog role so beautiful, a son of a bitch, just as true arrogant.

He's basically an elitist.

The states that he made that way, he never used the tax issue, never used the effect of it.

He never used the economic issue on the point of effect of it.

He never used the underdog issue of effect of it.

No, and then he just used the monitor issue.

But he was so arrogant that all of a sudden it made, well, he was washed out by it.

He did.

He never stayed with an issue long enough to make it stick.

I think so.

Right.

The whole key in a campaign is to get a good plan and stay with it.

Yes, it is exactly like it.

And there was never one time any better than this.

We had a chart week by week what we were going to attack him on one week.

And then we stuck to it.

Of course, it kills him.

You read the post-war campaign.

He now realizes what happened.

He didn't realize at the time.

And the surrogates attacking him, and he'd respond to it, hitting him in different directions.

And it kept him on stride.

He never gained stride.

If he had, and it stuck with one issue, and stopped attacking you personally, when he did get desperate attack, he destroyed himself.

He would have made progress.

He would have.

Not won.

No, no.

He was never going to win.

No.

Never.

He lost the election the day he was nominated.

Nobody was going to beat you this year.

We didn't know.

I think that's true.

I think that was made.

Keeping it from, of course, we have already, of course, misreads.

I said, well, it's just like May 8th.

I said, first, it's just later.

And you've got to realize, in May 8th, I said we were responding to the invasion, and I was able to go on it.

and rally the country around the flag.

I said, now here's a very confused situation where, I didn't say this again, but where people in Chile just thought, we thought that they had peace, and we indicated peace, and then all of a sudden, we started bombing again, so something's wrong.

Now, it isn't as bad as all that either.

As a matter of fact, a lot of people, many people say, well,

First, they don't like the communists, and secondly, back at the class.

So in that respect, it's like May 8th.

It is a clear-cut achievement.

And also, it's a greater disappointment, because at May 8th, nobody thought we had peace at hand.

No people thought they had money at hand.

There is one similarity.

That is that there has been an amendment at the end to let the renewal of negotiations

which has been rather dramatic.

Or I don't know, maybe it hasn't been very dramatic.

It hasn't been as dramatic as Moscow, but it is somewhat dramatic.

Well, there wasn't the same suspense.

Of course, the war had a more personalized impact on people than it does now.

We were still sending draftees.

Yes.

People were still concerned about getting killed in the ground.

Now that's gone, and enough time has passed to

People consider the war now just pilots flying their bumming huts, and that's a great deal different to the American people than ground soldiers with bayonet sticks stepping on claymore mines.

It's very different than something removed about a lifeboat.

The best thing to get over, in my own view, is that it might be within the next six months, but even at the outside, we'll have this over.

And if we do, we'll look all right.

Agreed?

Oh, absolutely.

In fact, we'll look very good.

And some of our critics will look very bad.

Yeah, that's right.

The feeling afterwards will be, stop beating your own country.

And that'll be, there'll be a reaction sent to those who kind of moralize about the war.

The people won't forget it, first of all.

And they won't.

It won't be a good issue for a politician after... After... Against Paris?

No.

People don't like to look back on the war experience and say, well, our boys fought in vain, died in vain, and so forth.

No.

Same in every war.

It's been the same in every war.

Korea was on top of yourself at the time, but... We all liked the Korean War better, so... Sure.

Yeah, that was a different mood than today.

I thought you didn't have the number of jackasses.

We had the only criticism, frankly, in Korea, that I didn't have very good teaching.

The criticism was from the Hawks.

That's what it is.

They said, why didn't you mount above the yellow?

I was a critic.

I thought MacArthur was right.

I would have mounted above the yellow.

And when they got down and those Germans came across, I laid down.

All right.

Hold it up.

We did it.

No, we were very ill-prepared for that war.

That was another... My God, there was one brigade of Marines that we could send over to combat-ready troops.

That was it.

Our question was on the 13th.

Louie Johnson's question.

The United States made a horrible mistake.

We talked about tribute and all that.

I've got to pay the proper respect to the main three of our gunsmiths.

I do, yeah.

He sure as hell was.

He didn't comprehend, really, the big of Fort Weller.

When confronted with the telecoms, he made them the right way.

And he was a damned effective politician.

48 campaigns.

And a massive piece of politics.

Yeah, and running against basically the Congress.

Rather than having him be the issue, he made the Congress the issue.

But we did exactly the same thing.

But the Congress wasn't in it, it was in the Governor's position.

Rather than having us be the issue, which was sure in the case, we made basically our own of the issue.

And it killed him.

And that's something he never figured out.

He never figured that out from the time you left that convention, that we had, sometimes subtly, sometimes very obviously, turned him into the issue.

He was never able to get back to us in his damn press before I left the law.

Oh, his press secretary, Dick Dargan, just wrote a page.

Blasting the press for having been unfair on the government.

Really?

I mean, the press.

But he had a very interesting line in that.

He had a sentence in there.

I know that 90% of the people that traveled with George McGovern voted for him.

But they were too lazy to really report what was going on or what kind of a man he was.

And the minute he got the bumbler labeled,

Then they just followed their stories routinely.

McGovern fumbled at the end of the day.

McGovern did this at the end of the day.

And he said the press were negligent.

They should have done advocacy reporting because they really believed in George McGovern.

And he did admit it.

He did admit it 90% of the time.

And he said, oh, sure.

And he said if they were really good journalists, they would have done more creative and advocacy type

Yeah, it's not awful, but it's a painful, painful piece to read because you know how desperately the man is, I mean, how bitter the man is that he had his candidature cut up so bad and how they mistook everything, I mean, how they misread the moods and didn't realize what was happening to him.

And I think of the days that we sat in the,

office here and plotted what we would do to him.

He did it, and then the one man would go charging off.

He never realized that every time we did that, he answered he was the issue.

And that was just, that was a good parallel there with 1948.

I'm not interested in that.

Yeah, we can talk privately.

Yeah, I think it's on our phones every now and then.

I'll come see you later.

You're welcome.

I wouldn't have you make.

I'd have you come to see me.

I would have you.

I would have you come to see me when I'm some sort of a provocation.

I mean, Henry, of course, watches this movie.

I just want to be sure that Al knows what the hell is happening.

And he's got to know.

And none of the best parts.