Conversation 834-011

President Nixon met with Irish Prime Minister Jack Lynch to discuss the ongoing sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, the potential for a peaceful settlement, and Irish-American trade relations. The discussion covered the political complexities involving the British government, the status of the UDA and IRA, and specific civil aviation disputes regarding landing rights and North Atlantic tariffs. Nixon directed Peter Flanigan to review the aviation and investment concerns, and the two leaders agreed to frame their public statements as a constructive, ongoing diplomatic review of these sensitive bilateral issues.

Northern IrelandIrish-American relationsCivil aviationTrade policySectarian violencePeter Flanigan

On January 5, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, John M. ("Jack") Lynch, Frank E. Fitzsimmons, Col. Richard T. Kennedy, and Oliver F. ("Ollie") Atkins met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:03 pm to 3:36 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 834-011 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 834-11

Date: January 5, 1973
Time: 3:03 pm - 3:36 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with John Lynch, Peter M. Flanigan, and Col. Richard T. Kennedy; the White
House photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

       Greetings

       Harry S. Truman memorial service

       Ulster situation
             -US concern

       Meeting between the President and Lynch
            -Scheduling
                                       -21-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                   (rev. Feb.-09)

                                                       Conversation No. 834-11 (cont’d)

The President’s schedule
     -Meetings with leaders
           -Republic of Korea [ROK]
           -People’s Republic of China [PRC]
           -The Philippines

Ulster
      -Settlement
      -Irish government white paper
             -Proposition for Settlement
      -Unionists
             -Ulster Defence Association [UDA]
     -Ratio of Protestant and Catholic
      -Campaign of violence
      -Provisional Irish Republican Army [IRA]

Irish border towns
       -Murder of young couple
       -UDA

British Prime Minister
      -Edward R.G. Heath
      -Irish problem
      -Heath
             -Willingness to deal with Irish problem
             -Unionists in Conservative Party

Common Market
    -Irish support
    -Meat prices
           -Shortages
           -Consumption

American investments in Ireland
    -John W. Mulcahy
    -Labor force
    -Irish products

Trade unions
                                        -22-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  (rev. Feb.-09)

                                                      Conversation No. 834-11 (cont’d)

      -Alexander F. Douglas-Home
      -George Meany
      -British and Irish unions
             -Compared to US unions
      -Agreement with government
             -Renewal
      Attitude of union leaders
             -Wage and price controls
             -US position

Mulcahy

Peter M. Flanigan

US Ambassador to Ireland
    -John D. J. Moore
          -Tenure

US–Irish trade
     -Shannon Airport
     -Airline Operations
     -Aer Lingus
            -Civil Aeronautics Board [CAB]
                  -Ruling on North Atlantic tariffs
                        -Cost to airlines
                        -European competition
     -Use of charters
            -France
            -US
     -John Moore

US-Irish relations
     -Moore
     -Understanding of problems
     -Air tariff concerns
     -American investments
     -Brandon Rivington [?]
     -Report back to Irish parliament
            -Flanigan
            -Agreement
                                                 -23-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                          (rev. Feb.-09)

                                                            Conversation No. 834-11 (cont’d)

                   -Value of meetings
                          -Other issues
                          -American investment
                   -Irish entry into Europe
              -New European community
                   -Economics
                   -Ireland’s role
              -New York investors

       Landing rights

       Weather

The President, Lynch, et al., left at 3:36 pm.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

No, don't tell me.
I'm trying to figure it out.
Fine.
Well, let's see.
I appreciate the fact that you were able to attend the memorial services for President Truman.
For that to be in time for at least three chapters.
I wish you could do more, but you know, I find that there are some of these in common.
It just goes like that, depending on it.
Thank you very much, Mr. Bittman.
I hope I have all of you with terrible problems.
Some of your problems are terrible, particularly our concern about the hosting problem, which is
Or you, I know, have taken a lot of heat with your country because you've been responsible.
And where, of course, we have been asked to look into that heat and so forth.
That would be irresponsible.
But our thoughts are with you.
I remember when we chatted about it.
will remain about as quiet as they choose to be.
At least better than it was.
He said it was worse.
Well, at least I paid him for it.
You know, that had been going on all the time.
One or two a day.
That's what I do.
And, you know, the two people who messed around, he said, first of all, Mr. Clinton, I didn't thank you on the scene yet.
So I told him, no, this isn't bad.
Five times a day, the whole day.
So I was like, I'm sorry.
Thank you.
Sorry, sorry.
The current position is very bad.
You've probably heard about this reading paper, which was published some months ago, just a few months ago.
It was on the subject of the CDC, and that set out the possibility of a settlement.
It was said by the left, very objectively, and it spoke really for the first time about the problem being settled in the context of the Irish dimension, which we in fact have said that we, southern governments, should be able to account for, if not into consultation.
Right.
This would then be succeeded by a white paper, which is now actually in course of preparation.
and uh secretary at the moment in consultation again with the representatives of the groups hope you can come up with a proposition that will be accepted across the board
government administration, not a very solid government administration, just couldn't do that, because I don't think they could ever be power mentally through this majority event, because of the reputations that were involved, and over again.
And there's also a suggestion that might entail a provision for the Council of Ireland to be represented on both sides.
On what basis, I don't know what the British thinking is like, but I should mention that we have said before that all of our administration and our Parliament, and possibly through here, and our government, our ministers, and chairmen, whatever executive functions they have up there, with the authority of our parliamentarians,
We would hope that this council would have teeth, that it would have the trust of at least a revolution, to recognize that in a nation that we've come from, in terms of economic and social matters, areas of great concern.
But subsequently, we would hope that it could evolve into something more meaningful,
Uh, however, this is all, uh, you can see the conjecture at this stage.
It doesn't even matter if I take a whiz and take a whiz.
But I think the relevance of this is that the militant units are now trying to achieve a big way.
You know, they're not unions.
They're armed militants, relatively.
What they call the UDA, the U.S. Defense Association, which is called the U.S. Department of Defense.
I think the purpose of this is to try to
but I decline to be present on it in uniform.
Really crashing the heads on this occasion.
I think it is supposed to do it, but I believe it doesn't do it.
There is a degree of apprehension that if they go through with it, that the Union is going to step up their campaign of violence, and that I believe it's almost a civil war.
The problem there, of course, is that
In certain areas, there were Catholic ghettos going over, and they could be wiped out overnight by little foggots.
Unfortunately, that's not their best location, I think.
Catholicism won't play its part in this town.
There are a lot of Catholics who have left these areas, you know, the victims are not in their homes.
And the most recent campaign is killing people who went to work.
They were sick of having to go to the rooms where I used to take care of them the other day.
I noticed that.
So again, we don't know the source of the heavy bombs in southern border towns, southern border towns.
And three days ago, a young, engaged couple were at work on our side of the border.
And they were just going through a building in the Jetson Center one day.
But, first of all, they were standing.
Well, these defendants are acting on both sides of the force.
You know, the UDA, Substance Abuse Association, are crossing over and destroying the peace, trying to scare off quite a lot of entities.
That is the current situation.
We're still hoping for something worthwhile that's by payment.
What do you expect of that?
I think it's a pretty gutsy job.
I think it's a pretty gutsy job.
Most British mind masters should read British history and never step up to the Irish problem.
Oh, you know, some try, but...
I remember that.
That's why it's been such a tragedy.
But now, he's got problems.
He's got problems.
He's got problems.
He's got problems.
He's got problems.
He's got problems.
that you moved on to the market.
How do you feel about that?
What's the sentiment here in Ireland about this?
So we need to send us an army that will reach you.
You know what, sir?
There's basically no shortage of people in the world.
Because people have more income.
They need more people.
That's the problem.
And in this case, you see, if you close the net, and close it, it's going to be used.
Close the net.
and, well, adjustments and things like that.
And, uh, techniques and, uh, mainly in the taste science and food processing, which is, in a sense, the very, for what we've learned about the taste science, is sensitive all over the world.
And, uh, food processing, as well, uh, is a trouble, getting into trouble in our country, but not so much because of the, uh, quality, but lack of efficiency in the land, the way that, uh, we would modernize.
But in the long term, we should do that.
In fact, this is the main purpose of my coming, to talk to America.
I noticed that.
But you go, you play out there.
So you have the opera.
But I would imagine that you have a very good labor force there, that the costs are not as high as they are in some areas, but are hard working for people.
So it's a very good place to invest.
And right from that stage, and also in terms of your own products, you've got some very good products.
So I would tell you, quality stuff requires some labor to gain daily attention.
But the problem, of course, is that our pigeons have inherited all the best of these pigeons.
Too much.
I'm living with too much of a foolish world now.
And our other pigeons are the type that don't need space.
And, well, isn't that really the key to that?
We talked about how well our system had worked, but it depends upon discipline and the training and the movement of that.
As George and others didn't like cars and controlled them at all, they at least, when it was past their discipline, they followed.
But the British and the Indians are being mighty tough here at the same time.
But fortunately, we have the ability to raise the number of views in some sessions.
It's not to start with.
It's not to remember that our independence, I think, is graduation.
So there is a repeat of that.
We did it again last year.
So if we renew it again, I think it's on the 4th of June, I suppose, that we can't forget it again.
And I think we can negotiate it again at this stage.
We're really pretty confident that we can do it again.
If we do, of course, we can.
It's really hard to be a responsible leader in Ireland.
It's hard to be a responsible leader in America.
But you know what?
You put your finger in the hole, and it's endemic.
It's not just endemic.
It's endemic to basically any place.
Some union leaders have seen the problem, but many do not.
And that is they keep feeding this idea that people should work less and get more, but they can't do it.
but you cannot continue to, you know, sit at your fang, get more money.
That pressure goes out of the world markets.
That's what these guys are talking to all the time.
That's right.
That's right.
It's really, fortunately, it's one of the, um, it's our labor agreement.
We've settled the national price situation, um, between the representatives.
They're doing, they're doing this as well.
And these fellows can see the difference now, and they say, well,
Thank you very much.
But, as you mentioned, the other man said, to a point he said, you can't go to a man who says, well, you must, obviously, you must break it, because, you know, you're...
is it, or is it, I mean, I can say it goes beyond our position that Mueller presented.
As you know, it's a very dangerous, very dangerous situation.
It did come up, and we tried to be as reasonable as we could.
We tried to make it as special.
Chris Brown and I, I know, again, my good friend Jack Mulcahy just pounded the table and said,
It's all around here.
And then we tell you, and then it opens.
All right, you can go on.
We'll see you around.
Peter Kline is our follow-up, so he's the expert in this area, and also he's the architect, so I think that he'd be on your side.
Let me take this a couple minutes through, to be honest, to lead it to a first with regard to retaining ambassadors in most places in the world.
If you feel well about it, we thought we would have more space, if you'd like more.
He wants to stay for a little while, so he'll be on for a while.
He's certainly a good choice.
I tell you, he loves it there, and we've been interested in the job.
Coming on to this...
As I saw your memorandum on the thing, is there anything you can tell the Prime Minister that goes beyond what Mara is presiding over?
How does it – there are – we can talk frankly about this, and then we can say what we want about it later.
Well, Mr. President, the way John Ford presented it indicated that we felt that the – this issue of beyond – beyond those rights had to be left open.
And we recognize that that is the core of the problem, because that holds in it the threat to Shannon.
Today, people understand landing in China.
They don't understand landing in China.
And don't if you want to go on to some other way.
And while our people tell us that those beyond rights are essential for a
for an economic operation.
I think that we recognize that that's probably so important to Ireland.
We've got another one line.
Yes, one line.
And we will land in Chad just as long as anybody else lands.
My daughter is in Chad.
She told me that you got on the plane and were on the plane just before she got there.
She told me about it last night.
I think Mr. President has given us the problem that the United States presents to the Irish government that we could agree that we'll drop that.
Yes, sir.
But that's about as far as we can go.
As far as we can go in our minds and say, well, that doesn't help us much.
But I mean, we understand.
We're probably young.
Young.
But I mean, and as part of the one day that we attend, because we've been back attending again, and that opens up the opening for us again, although it's retained manual.
Absolutely.
Mark, I can see that.
I was hoping that it might be possible, but it's pretty wonderful.
Not so far away, but it could be possible.
They said it was possible to go and check out.
We have tried, and we've done that every way we can, Mr. Prime Minister, and that is a
increases the diversion to our line, that does probably more economic damage to our people than we get by going up to the dozens that are already well behind.
So that means we felt the gap.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Five months ago or three years ago, something else.
Chicago or something.
But we have agreed that, as the prime minister, that we'll stop China because he wants to, but we won't take it.
And the natural result is that the airline is, no doubt, because it's such an excellent airline, carries a great bulk of the traffic between the U.S. and China.
Well, you know, they fight for it.
One of the figures goes to this time.
You know, they're doing better than we, and they're hopefully better.
We now have a very difficult affairs situation in the North Atlantic with the British taking part in that.
Not your, as I understand it, not your thing.
So we're going to be able to, during this day and day, actually be a little more restrictive in so far as those monitorings are going to be.
Well, I was there and kind of followed their independent agency, Mr. President, and we're not supposed to even talk about that kind of matter.
What is the situation?
What are the prospects here?
They have issued a ruling that I think will be, that will cost some money to the scheduled airlines.
And I personally regret that, because I think the scheduled airlines in North Atlanta are a great country.
Absolutely.
They look great.
They're a great country.
And $3 million left here, and most of it in North Atlanta.
They're much better than North Atlanta.
But it's because of these Jack Black outfits from some of our friends.
That's right.
And the European competition.
Yeah.
And they were very, very, very aggressive.
I don't know that.
They agreed to go the other direction.
And the only thing is that that guy said he wanted to thank God that he helped him.
And he freaked me out and said, okay, well, then I helped him.
And I said, no one would write.
There's a few of us in my school with some connections.
And I'm going to be letting my fellow powers in on this Saturday.
Because I told you, because it's never very easy like this, right?
On some dimensions.
But, you know, I mean, I'm going to be in touch with you.
I'm going to be in touch with you.
I'm going to be in touch with you.
I'm going to be in touch with you.
But let me just put it this way.
As you can imagine, I cannot, I can't, I'm not an expert in this area.
Everybody knows that I took to the Irish for some personal reasons.
But we do the best we can to really get that going.
And we have a lot of problems.
We've got here a factory that's, you know, and our guys don't do that much.
But I think we're both on the face of it.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
Yes, sir.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
We're doing the wrong thing.
They don't do it around here.
You wouldn't want that.
So I don't see a reason to say anything about it.
It would be politically, but it wouldn't be anything on somebody going to New York.
He believed that this scenario, if we get off the human regret map, that they see it as a long-term threat.
Well, that can't wait for the witness.
I agree with you that they gave you a big update.
It's a double thing.
It doesn't have to be one common threat.
But let's have a clear understanding that that's it.
We can assure you of that.
And that therefore...
I would think that what you would say, Mr. Prime Minister, is that you brought it up.
The Prime Minister has both agreed that an effort should be made to solve this problem.
It's existed for so long.
I mean, is that something positive that has been done, or is it something that needs to be done?
in a renewed, renewed negotiation.
That is in the past, as well as you promised.
As well as I promised.
If you have a problem with that, you have to say that the two governments will be discussing it again and hear the issue.
Why don't you say that you could say that the president, the Democratic majority, the White House, met with this president, called him the president-directed,
planning and review the matter again, having in mind the points that the Prime Minister had made with whoever he designated.
How does that sound?
Yes.
And then you show the points you made.
Does that sound all right to you?
Does that attract you?
Yes.
The Prime Minister said that the points that he made included the problems along our rights, so that when that, if we come back and have a reason to do it on our rights, it's clear that that totally
That we want, that we agree on that, that we're going to see love.
That's correct.
That's what we have to agree on.
Right.
I don't think he would not want to say that.
But say to people, come on, come on, say that later.
Right.
I know what I would say.
I think you could say, look, you and I have met on previous occasions.
We've had very frank talks.
We'll indicate that we discussed our conditions.
But if you don't want to get into the substance of it, you can't.
You will not be offended.
But on this particular matter, you presented very candidly your views.
And I said we would review the situation, having in mind what you had said.
I directed that.
How does that sound to you?
And beyond that, you didn't want to go into the substance of it, because that's not good.
Is it that way that when something comes, you can somehow otherwise throw it away without getting credit?
I think so.
Right.
By all means, actually.
And we also talked about investment.
And I was enthusiastic about it.
We talked about your entry into Europe and the effect that it had on you.
I asked about that.
Thank you.
For the New Year, we come in.
protections that we did, that people could trigger into economics and disaster as long as economics, because then we'd have to do the same thing.
There's a lot of concern in this country about what's going to happen in relation to Europe.
And I would think myself, and the hope that Ireland would play,
The players have to play.
Frankly, the brokers are all saying, no, no, we don't look out for this.
You may have more fish to fry with us than with some of these other people.
That's right.
We would hope so.
That's right.
That's right.
Yes.
Oh, and too many people do this.
I mean, as I said, they all can do this.
I mean, you don't know how to trade.
You'll know more about it than I do.
I don't know.
That's all we have.
I have a question.
You know, we've spoken on the ground about how it's coming about.
In fact, I've seen on the Facebook page, I have the short film that spoke about it.
It's very interesting to talk about it.
And then about the anti-virus.
What do you do with the situation?
The President, in fact, was defending the vaccine because of the lack of security.
Right.
Yes.
Anyway.
All right.
We hope we don't get snowed on here.
I think it's, it's, it's, uh, it's negative.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Thank you.
Thank you.