Conversation 835-008

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Sir, your son.

How could I have?

I...

I didn't believe him.

I had a responsibility in her as well.

I talked to him a little about the, you know, I didn't want to get into any of the people.

Exactly.

And I was just about to say, go ahead.

The one thing I did, from what I know, which you, of course, are going to follow up, is this idea of having me.

I know some people who certainly can.

and also the younger people can use these associated things that we've put up for blood costs in the other places around here.

And use the theater, for example, down there at the Kennedy Center.

And as a matter of fact,

And, you know, it's a great, you know, it's like Joe Alsop's salons like that.

You know, what he does is he puts the great man in a chair.

Everybody kind of sits around in a circle.

And you listen to him stop.

And I'm sure Henry is.

I've never been to one where he is.

I went to one about three years ago.

Let them spout to each other.

Talk to others of our people.

I mean, let our own people get some of the feel of that.

That's exactly the point.

Let them spout to some of the good press guys and to some of the good administration people that don't meet important people.

And folks who are in town.

Let me get a, you know, some of these people that matter to us in Vermont and other parts of the country.

Right.

Do some stuff.

I was talking to the upside of the downside of the medium side.

No, it's very much

He wants a bill of bonds.

And I'm going to buy that now, I guess, until anything he wants to pass on.

Just, uh, he said he, you know, I said, do you want to get together with him after the inaugural?

And he said, that'd be fun.

His plan was to leave Sunday, but he'd stay over if he wanted to.

He was going to come back later in the week, which would probably be better.

And he said, you'll be all tied up anyway.

That's right.

I want to wait a week.

So, uh,

he's concerned about, he says, not about the substance, but about the press coverage and the congressional thing on the building up of the brawl with Congress.

He said, I think you've got to watch that closely and turn it at the right time.

He said, right now, it's very vicious and you've got to watch how you deal with it.

Like Bob Byrd on a television thing this morning and

And that the interviewers were pushing him.

And he said that he thinks the reorganization is very bad.

It's defying what the role of the cabinet is supposed to be.

And that he agreed that maybe they'd hold up approval of the cabinet appointments if the people don't agree not to withhold funds.

To withhold their funds is flying in the face of Congress.

I don't know.

I wouldn't be surprised.

I would just go ahead.

They ought to.

just go ahead and not approve it?

Do that?

I think so.

Oh, sure we can.

But the view that John had is that he says at some point, he says, I think the president's got to do it.

I don't think any of you do.

And he's more sure.

Because if you don't want to get into a low-level fight with Congress, but he says right at the high level, he's not surprised to fight with Congress.

Oh, no.

No, no.

And he says it probably is good.

That was the reason.

But he says one thing you might want to do is the President should perhaps, and maybe personally or maybe in a statement or something, not on a mean basis but just on a counterattack kind of basis, say that the Congress shouldn't just be criticizing the President for making changes and reorganizing and shifting things around.

The Congress has got to be looking at itself.

And it's got to reorganize itself.

And the president, he mentioned, not specifically how to do it, but call on the Congress to reorganize itself.

That its structure isn't sound in today's situation.

And he said, there's a lot of talk about Congress having to assert its power.

He said, that's the thing Bird kept coming back to.

And they all keep saying all these things.

Yeah, the president, what are you doing?

But Congress has to assert its power.

And the Bird thing is surprising to me.

Is it because somebody

should not get away with this.

Good God, we can't let it fly out of his hair.

We're not trying to be, you know, hurt.

Yeah, but he's playing the partisan leader at the moment.

Yeah.

Conley's point is we should say, sure, Congress does have to assume its class, whether or not Berg was invited.

No, I just got off.

Go ahead.

He said, also, Congress has to exercise its responsibilities, and that power without responsibility is destructive and

John, of course, is very sensitive about the relations of the Congress .

Our problem is our ability or inability to get anything through the Congress, which may or may not be a good thing.

And as far as the idea that the Congress

We don't want to become so... That's too outside.

It's too outside.

It's also a good problem today.

And the press is starting to move the other way.

And a lot of their analysis now sort of sums it up.

And he kind of leads that kind of thing.

He makes the point that the Congress is starving.

You know, they're saying it's in the meanest mood.

It's sort of been in the red open and all this sort of stuff.

where they feel the president has stepped into Congress's, you know, overrated Congress's prerogatives, that it's Congress's responsibility to determine the appropriations and the spending, and it's Congress's responsibility to declare war, and that the president is waging war without congressional approval or consultation, and the president is cutting spending against the will of the Congress to spend.

And he said, unfortunately for the Congress,

They stand, they're doing battle with the president on two major grounds in which the president stands, holds most of the chips, and stands to win both battles.

Of course, he may not, but on the war thing, the American people are clearly with the president.

And our Congress is not going to be able to cut off the war.

The president holds the cards on that one.

And on the spending, the people are also clearly with the president.

When he says we can't do it, I come back again to when he says I have to do it.

John, he always goes into that.

I do feel that here we have a problem to a certain extent with weakness and personality.

And frankly, the nature of maybe a person in this church who is so more of that burden.

And I may be wrong about that.

you've just got to put and maybe they're going to hell a lot more than I think.

Kissinger isn't playing.

That's the problem with him.

Kissinger, who they call the bird, he wouldn't handle such matters.

I remember there was an empty chair there at the table that must have been the bird.

I wonder where he was.

Yes, I recall he was on the list of those who were not even hurt and didn't do anything.

Wasn't there?

There were about four, three or four that

I don't know.

I'll, I'll check with any, you know, why should we check it?

Why should we, because that's the intent of each other.

The intent should be.

Yeah, but I want to check the intent to see what, what the problem was when it's coming and then follow up because, but I, I didn't, your point, very,

And the rest of us to move on these things, not just to look at tenants with the Congress and Ziggler with the press, but to solve all the problems where they say we cannot abandon the chain and move on.

I mean, there were a couple of odds and ends, and it's about a year.

Can I ask about this question whenever they arise about the swearing in of the captain?

Can I avoid going through that?

In other words, if we do each one of them, you're going to figure about three hours.

I mean, they bring in their families and all that sort of thing, and da-da-da-da-da-da, and press and so forth and so on.

Another way to do it, you know, and the other point is that some of these guys may be delayed to a certain extent.

We swear in some, and not others.

Remember, we swore in Hickel later.

What is your view about that?

We should make a decision on it, shouldn't we, Matt?

I mean, I say not a decision, but a policy, so that we'll know some of them.

Okay, so I'm saying...

When we get the first guy approved, are we going to immediately have him come down and swear him in?

That's the problem.

I just sort of think that one look at one is a mistake.

Or have you thought about it?

Well, yeah, we've talked about it.

But the problem is the timing of when you're going to get him approved.

And it may be quite a while.

It may be quite a while.

And it may be, well, it depends.

Whether they decide to do battle on that ground or whether they're going to play other directions or just

I don't like the point of the fact that they're waiting on Brenninger or on...

He said there's nothing wrong with substance.

He said the only thing is the question of whether you want to start a counterattack and when.

Basically, whether I have to be present for that swearing in.

Is it an amen?

It's something, of course, but probably because I play at this downgrading cabinet.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you.

I think so.

You have Peterson in here and Butts in here.

You have Weinberger and, you know, funny things, you know, Schultz all over at the Eastern.

Well, I'm not going to do a big Schultz thing.

I mean, let's not.

Do they, do you think we have to have anything with their families and all that sort of thing?

That gets me into one hell of a long, I know I get comments over there about all the strands, but

Oh, I guess you do.

I guess you do.

Well, you sure as hell don't have to.

They're not political figures.

You don't have to do their own thing.

They don't bring about everybody from the city in.

So you bring in their families.

You probably have to let their families come, unless you just did it as a, if you had them all confirmed, you have the captain being sworn in and the captain being.

And it gets to be a very extended or extended proposition.

I was trying to remember how we did the other cabin.

He did the whole cabin all at once.

I think he did.

I do it in a very quiet way.

I don't want an Eastern ceremony.

Very quiet way.

Maybe round two.

Round two, four or five.

Four or five through this office in 15 minutes.

Group one, done.

Group two, done.

How's that sound to you?

That makes it easy to do it, and then as others get confirmed, let me say that in view, and as far as the others are concerned, I'm not going to go below.

Now, I know we've got this special request for this undersecretary and that ambassador and this and so forth and so on.

I just don't want to do any of those.

I don't think we should just limit it to the county and the council.

Do you agree to that?

The exception, of course, is Ash.

levels of slurring him, right?

Because if you break into that, you have a very... You really do.

It would be bad to do that.

Anyway, because you get into it.

And which you do and which you don't.

I was worried I should have taken that miserable attack on him.

All right.

Okay.

He's fine.

Well, fine this time.

We can go immediately.

I'm kidding about it this morning.

All right.

I talked to Rose this morning about the CHIP service and she has an impossible problem and we have an impossible problem

I had decided that the main purpose of that service

There's nothing else you can do.

Let's just have it with the top people in government.

Now that's a mission that he entered into.

Except for the vice president.

His family.

No vans except the next family.

No other vans.

Then I would take the caddy, each member of the caddy, and his wife, but not his kids.

The top administration.

I'd have the Chief Justice.

That's why I would have the inaugural committee.

I'd have Marion not down too far.

And then I'd have to have the Congressional Escort Committee.

You see, that's what you'd have in the Congress.

That's good.

That's an inaugural.

Yeah, that's the inaugural.

I think, too, that on us.

I don't think in this case.

Would you want to bet that we're going to have a big four in the House of Senate?

You should.

I know that I probably should.

We sort of throw ourselves in the field, man's field, and so forth.

Why?

Why do you?

You have the inaugural people.

That's it.

You know, that's hard.

You're not an inaugural to me.

That represents the Congress and the Chief Justice represents the court.

It occurred to me that I thought we might get away with that.

Then I would have the undersecretary fill it out, flesh it out in terms of presidential appointees to the extent that you can.

Fair enough.

And absolutely no exceptions.

Absolutely no exceptions.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs

White House staff should be there, because it will be those that they're not.

But I would go to the, in this case, to be pretty much limited to these.

I'll go down 10 people.

That's just a level that you might get.

You ought to get down to it.

But you know, I can put the rules in the deal for the channel.

So that you get down to that point.

You need that.

And you see, it'll flesh it out.

And maybe you'll be limited on your secretaries.

I don't know.

But I need to get a bunch of secretaries.

Now, let me say, you don't need to fill the room.

You just have to be a little more comfortable.

And if it gets down to having assistant secretaries, it brings it in.

I'd like to have assistant secretaries for the reason that they don't get there for much else.

We can do them and another one where we

and people that are going to be around.

I don't want any people there that are holdovers that are going to stay.

I understand what you're saying.

Holdovers that are going to venture.

Not me or both of you.

Yeah, I wouldn't have Rossi.

I wouldn't have both of you.

I wouldn't have an assistant secretary who's

is basically the inaugural of this meeting.

It would be a great mistake for Connie to stay.

Rose said she would mention to you somebody that worked for the National Committee who did such a good job.

I checked her out.

Yeah, strongly.

I do think, though, that Julie must have somebody there to do the press.

She must not be the press secretary.

That's all there is to it.

Absolutely, she cannot be the press secretary.

And as I go around this line, with regard to all the paths of that,

I don't know if there's anything you can follow up with on it.

All right.

Except to, except strongly to resist it, and then it comes up, you know, as it comes to your attention.

Yeah.

I don't know.

The other thing is to push it and come to take another jump.

The only thing would be if Pat told her no, she wants her to stay.

But Pat's faced it now.

When you face that agony and get it done, it's ridiculous to have to face it again.

She tells you to stay on and on and

on the ambassadors I didn't hear you I've given an order he is not a governor he's not going to get another I will not give him another ambassador role

They got John Saper for that, I think, who's the best businessman candidate we've got.

I just don't know what I know to do about your suggestion on it.

It shouldn't be in a basket of mountains.

It shouldn't be.

How about telling them to wait?

You know, give it a few years, something like that.

I don't know who's talking to them about it.

And I think if you go to, I don't know, just desperately hurt his feelings as you go through something, it's really quite a sight.

Well, we have this, you know, possibilities.

Argentina or South Africa.

South Africa.

I think there has to be a change.

I'm more than coming to the conclusion that Ray can't cut it.

And I don't know why.

It is because he's been sick and he's been out of touch.

But more and more you see symptoms of the thing that tears me.

And there's a lot to be said for the cutout agreement.

Yes, there is.

He's that long.

I'm not sure he's got the kind of stature.

Yeah.

I don't know either.

He's got the stature of an actor, you might do.

He's a big dancer.

He's a big, tough, strong-armed law enforcement guy.

It's going to need a guy who just comes in there and co-ops everybody.

Just really...

point at something.

And that's a tough, that's a tough assignment because it's just, it's fringing.

It's just coming apart at the seams all through there.

Who's bound to win the big match?

I think so.

I think Gray is basically just not a able enough man.

I mean, what I meant is when I say able, he could have been maybe 10 years ago.

He doesn't probably have the energy.

That's probable.

Well, he's away for a while.

Somebody else takes over.

But he's got a young staff.

He's got a young staff, and they're trying to run.

They're from the outside.

And there are a lot of antagonists in the building.

And the whole bureaucracy is fighting back.

It's a very tough situation, and I don't think that Gray on a permanent basis can handle it now.

Now, with Gray, that means that we've got to find another position to train him.

That should be one.

I've been thinking of one possibility for him.

I think he could do bond.

Crazy stuff.

Potentials in terms of a few years.

He knows the law involves the area.

He's a lawyer.

Another possibility for him, of course, is the OEP thing.

That would seem to, the bond thing would seem to be a step up for him.

That's right.

Yeah, but that will not be popular.

It will not even be understood by most of us to look at it.

I don't think

But unless you've got a better name than Rumpelstiltskin.

I don't at the moment.

At the moment, I don't mean actually the terribly important question.

so far.

And, uh, have you discussed it, John, actually recently or something?

No, I'm not.

I think you ought to try to reconcile the body again.

All right.

I think you do really well.

I'll do it.

Now, with regard to the other appointments, are there any other appointments, John, the subcommittee level or the agency level that you want to ask me about?

Not at the moment.

We're going to have a thorough run-through, either late today or early tomorrow, and then we'll want to come at you with a whole list.

Don't worry about the list.

Your recommendations are a lot.

Let me say one thing I think is important, though.

too hard on our friends, much that I'm thinking of George Koch's son.

I understand.

I know Lenny thinks he has enough of a job.

But basically, if you've got a call like the one last year that thinks he is, the fact that he's gone and all that stuff, I think that's probably good luck.

If Amber Butch can do the job, if Julie can do the job,

I know.

You can argue the other way.

You're talking about two friends, and the other friend is Knudsen, and now there's the investment community police is divided.

That's one of the things he was talking about before.

He is for Knudsen, and he says that there

going to be an operational guy that will be taken over by what's in there, especially being a young man.

And then Newsom would be better.

Now we know in Seattle, most recently, he wasn't originally from Chicago.

He said he's an Easterner who came to Seattle, started to practice law.

He was one of the big firms there.

Well, OK.

I don't know Cook.

I don't know Paul.

I don't know his father.

Conley's pushing for Knutson on the basis that there's a very good general reaction to him.

He's the guy that's, it isn't Blanigan that's interested so much as Casey is the guy that's interested.

Oh, I got it.

You also weren't going to buck the last year's establishment, were you?

I'd also agree with what you did with the woman.

Say it's like getting a cell phone or an AAC, and you're going to try it.

Yeah, if you want to do that.

Well, in my view, I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of sense who runs the AAC.

He's probably just going to go with that.

She was adequate, didn't he?

You feel she's adequate?

There may not be anybody else you want to go to.

Yeah, he had several other suggestions, and that's what...

some of the things that I know people have been trying to get ready to bring to us, like this SEC thing I talked to Rick a few minutes ago.

And he's putting together the pros and cons of these things.

Let me say this, and I have probably agreed with you, I want you to know I'm actually going to do this.

We've barely agreed.

I understand, but on the other hand, this, I know, has to be... Well, we're trying to... As you're ready, I don't know where a lot of the other stuff is.

If you're ready, we better have a

Did you go to National Park Service?

Very interesting.

No.

I mean, he does a good job.

Well, no, the signals are all right in that building right now.

And they all came in, and they all applauded.

And it was such a good time.

And we won the president's man, too.

That's the signal.

And I figured I'd go to Lowell for a while.

And I was going to ask you a thing.

I'm going to show you a horrible thing.

And I said, you, let's go to Lowell.

And I said, I'm going to go to Lowell.

I said, I'm going to go to Lowell.

Now, it is wrong for the governor, or this governor, to maintain places for the purpose, and it's true of cabinet people too, but to have these little places around the world.

I just think it's wrong, that's all.

Now, the congressman asked about it.

put it into the Yellowstone, where the folks can go.

I mean, now, I know that Senator John Whitaker has visited some of these places.

He thinks they're great.

At least they're great.

But it isn't right for him to go to them.

It really isn't.

The thing hurts, I guess, is what's interesting.

And so I think another thing I want to do, if I can get Elliot in here one time, I thought the service was not found somewhere there.

I believe all the good things that we can spread around.

I think that sort of thing is an interesting thing.

Like, Johnson's coming out the way.

I don't know if I do have Coca-Cola for Christ's sake.

That place should be either torn down or made a place where people come to visit.

For them to maintain the staff, the administrators, and to make up beds and everything for a senator to come down there and take a week's vacation.

I doubt it.

That's wrong.

They don't assess that they're a place to visit.

They charge $25, $30 a day and there's no staff.

And they have, which they never told us about, all kinds of facilities there that I read about in the paper.

There's a health club, health club, have massage, have calories and all that sort of thing.

One other thing I was going to mention, to take care of the two lame ducks that we had, we were going off Earth.

Miller wants the SEC IRS or he isn't even in the running for it.

the business community wouldn't want him.

The IRS, we don't want him.

But we may have other problems.

We cannot take Miller.

I mean, Jack Miller would be my guy that's right up the wall.

And also, putting a lame Republican senator in that thing is worse than trying to put Webster in town.

You could rely on him five minutes.

I learned hope of God.

What do you think about that?

Well, I'd like to see him out of the country.

Not really an ambassadorship fair around here.

Pretty good idea.

Can't be any worse than most ambassadors.

Especially if you're going to a country you're not going to visit.

Just don't put into one you might be going to.

Oh, I'm not going to visit many.

All right.

Give me a Latin American post.

Jamaica.

You let us play golf.

I'm in Jamaica.

Or have you given that to somebody else?

Yeah, probably.

That's it.

How are you going to pay out of post with this?

Is that a minute, Dad?

A minute in the public, places like that?

Yeah, that's it.

Probably.

I think you're right.

These are long weekends.

I think, as a matter of fact, Bob, I think the better thing to do with Miller is to give him an offer to pass through and enter the post with him.

But that's going to offer two things.

But would you do it quickly, John?

It's got to be done quickly so that he knows that, look, the president took a personal action to this.

We've looked over all these things, and frankly, these other positions are committed.

We just, it's all we have.

And he'll say, but I want to be considered for a judge.

No, you're not.

We don't have any openings in the present time.

Obviously, if the president is aware of your interest, then we'll see that the station will account at that time.

You know, Senator, there can't be commitments on that.

You can't make any commitments at this time.

I'll never appoint a survey coach like we do.

No, no, certainly not.

But you see, during the time, he will be considered.

And then we'll see to it that he just doesn't count.

I don't want to put you in that position.

Is there a possibility that there was a church open?

Well, we wouldn't say it quite that way, that there wasn't anything open.

We wouldn't say that, you know, there's a list, and there's always a list maintained, and his name will go on, and so on.

But if you move fast on that, I've had Scott and others on my back on this, too.

Scott explained.

And that's part of his job and so forth.

So I said, well, you can go back and tell him if this starts your obligation.

I don't think so.

No, he's pro-form, as he explained.

He's pro-form.

Well, his point is that you have the lame ducks up there.

It's kind of around, and you have here the execution.

It's rather ironic.

So I just wanted to know.

Anyway, you want to pray at the place where he was born.

We can all hold on.

And that's what we need to stand in.

We should be careful.

That's what we need to do.

Well, I thought you handled the reorganization very well.

I think you're not to be too concerned about the inevitable reaction of the Congressional thing, because basically the case is quite good.

The Congress cannot, they can't object to it, they cannot object to it.

I was talking to our ranking member on the House Government Operations Committee this morning.

And Holifield is just really, he doesn't know quite how he feels about this at the moment.

We can get him, and he'll support us, and he'll move the legislation along, I think, with a little work right now.

Urban wasn't here the other morning.

So we'll spend some time with him, and I think we can get him in.

Well, because I think we can show him on the merits that the thing doesn't harm his position on executive privilege.

It doesn't disrupt congressional relations.

And I think, actually, he's not looking for any more fights than he can handle.

He needs a bigger fish.

Therefore, if the council is here, it means the president can have more direct discussions with his cabinet.

People are always available, or as you know, the White House staff, and they're in a different category.

Well, I think we'll get him.

I think he'd be all right.

I'm going to see him.

As soon as he'll see me.

Are you asking him?

Yep.

He has nothing to respond to.

Well, Timmons is negotiating.

He's been out of town.

That's why he wasn't here.

That's right.

I don't know where he was.

Well, he did, and he was invited, and there was a special point of it, and he regretted it.

And so we can come around and clean up after him, too, I would think.

I can't imagine.

Has there been anything that we've had that had a regard on the track?

That would be a good shake.

Yeah.

He apparently kicked us somewhat in the division over there.

Oh, was that so?

Apparently more in answer to a question.

It was more the interviewer that was kicking us and leading him, you know, saying, well, wouldn't it be a good tactic for the Congress in asserting its power to...

to counselors until they agree that they won't get out of my embargo.

But he also, I would say on her, he would be worth a hundred pounds.

He also made the proposal so he could actually say he hasn't seen the president for years.

No, he put it much more cleverly.

He said, I haven't seen the president since last year.

Last year was exactly nine days ago.

He got murdered.

Oh, last year?

Yeah.

He did that thing over there.

He was in here on Black Lawn.

Black Lawn?

Yeah, Black Lawn.

Remember Black Lawn?

Was that last year?

He didn't say it had been a year.

He said, I haven't seen him since last year.

That was eight days ago.

And at the time of the breakfast, you know, he got his name up there.

Was that last year?

Last year.

No, that was year before.

But we had a lot of business with him last year on this black lumber thing.

He was very grateful.

He said all the right things.

So I'll talk it around.

I've finished making the point in talking about the political organization.

He said we've got a problem with Bush, George Bush, on how to put the National Committee together because we've got a problem within our own party of the question of Congress versus the President now.

And that's a thing that they're going to be concerned about how that's put together and all that.

We've got to work.

He was in, he went up to, he said, I dropped by up there at the committee office without telling him.

I just walked in.

He said, I couldn't believe the place.

They've got that beautiful building up there that, you know, we bought at an incredible cost for.

He said, it was a complete mess.

There were three or four people sitting around drinking in one of the offices.

And he said, there's trash around it.

And he's around.

He says, just tell me, do we still have that up there?

Oh, I'm sure we do.

Isn't it about time?

Well, I guess it was about 20 years ago, 12 years ago.

I'm not going to say that.

I try every national tournament.

But we've got to keep this ball because he makes the point.

And a perfect ball.

That was all good.

Yeah.

I didn't pick it up.

Nelson Rockford called me, made an appointment, came in to see me, that they had a Truman thing to say that the Vice President called on.

Was it after the service or before?

Before.

As he said, I need to get some signals around here.

Who's calling the political shots?

And he had a number of suggestions as to how the Republican Party should be revamped and who they should run for the various state offices.

and suggestions.

Did he sit down with Nelson and say, we've got to run, we don't think Jared should do this.

And Malcolm Wilson ought to succeed you, and so on and so on.

Nelson indicated that he thought it was pretty stupid.

He said, of all the states in the union,

You can't get away with this in New York.

Well, let me say this.

Of all the states in the union, where at every level the state organization came and ran fairly well with the president, they got the state legislature, right?

They got the both houses.

Yep.

We carry the state.

That's pretty damn good.

You see my point?

Nelson has done pretty well.

I'm sure you're talking to the right people.

Let me tell you how this... You see my point there?

We carry the state by a billion votes.

We lose both houses of the legislature, and we don't need any Congressmen.

Yeah, but there's something working here.

What he did was to come in and say, now I've laid aside some of these trivial things that I've been doing.

In order to devote my time to the regeneration of the Republican Party nationwide, and I'm here to talk to you about this, one of the things he was sending Rockefeller out on was Rockefeller's plans, 74 and 76.

And so...

Rocky said to me, I don't know what he told me.

He said, I didn't give him any answers to any of these questions.

He said, I just didn't get the point here at all.

And so he said, I need some indication from you as to who the political man is going to be in the White House.

And I said, it's going to be George Bush.

He said, great, perfect.

I saw Bush in the White House.

We've got to keep this away from us.

I don't want to be able to say that Ehrman or Coleman or Cole or somebody else did this or that or the other.

Well, I feel the question, and I hope this was right, but he said, I'm your sole figure, and he said, you and I have got to work on a totally open basis if you feel you can.

And I said, absolutely right.

They said, give me the signals and let me do the work.

Don't you guys get caught in it.

But be sure that I know what you want done.

And he said, now, am I supposed to be greasing the track to put Agnew into the chair?

And I said, absolutely not, George.

And I know the president indicated that to you, too.

And that is not me.

I didn't say present.

I said, let me say that the thought is not that this meant... What I would say is this.

Present feels there should be absolutely no discussion and no word upon 1976, Mr. Hunter Ladd,

and so forth.

And this includes the Vice President, who's going to be absolutely, I think that everybody should concentrate now on electing Republicans for the House and Senate in 1974.

And he will certainly not give any comfort to the activities of anybody to become a candidate and get the Republicans divided as the Democrats divided over the 76th Amendment.

That's exactly what he's doing.

So that's the line that I think we're settling.

Now, obviously,

Well, didn't Nelson get the opinion that the

50 state run on this.

Oh, yeah.

Or at least the Republican governor's run.

He told him that he was going to call on the other governors.

And Rocky says, in my opinion, he's peaking a little early.

The other thing George did raise, which relates to appointments, is on Republican finance chair.

He strongly means to this guy...

is very much wants the job.

Rollins really doesn't want the job.

Rollins will take it if you ask him to, which puts you in the position.

And George says, well, that's right.

George says, the problem is, if you go Rollins, the president's going to get stuck with having to do it.

The other guy wants the job.

If we give the other guy the job, he's a guy that has a million dollars in dividends

wants to be the next chairman.

And Al Cole and some of those people have gotten the push and said, take this guy Wilson because he understands the professional approach to fundraising as contrasted to this obsession with having dinners and tea parties.

He says, this guy uses the mail and he understands the use of mailings and promotion and working the thing the other way.

And George wants to get away with all the mail at home.

That's an awful lot of money.

I just don't know.

I'll make an appointment with George, but he said, now, did you want him to come to you on this kind of appointment or not?

And I said, I didn't think so.

And the thing is, Joe, your feeling was that you wanted George to run this thing.

He was your man to run the track.

That's the best thing I did.

We ought to track these things just in case there's something else known here that George wouldn't have had to know.

Much better.

Much better than that.

When he gets the man, he brings him in.

And he's George's man and all of us.

And the guy's been given the job that he wanted rather than being persuaded to take the job he didn't want, which is what puts us in a hell of a position.

And you've got the uncles and those people, a professional group, ready to hire you, John.

I don't want you to get bogged down in this appointment crap, because it isn't that part of the way that we really can connect some of these barriers.

I would rather have you take the battle with the Congress on reorganization than put all your time to it this week.

And I know you said it to me, because I know that all of your calls are just like yours.

But thank you, because it doesn't bother me to hand you a can of coal so you can have a man of that.

It makes a lot of difference.

I have total confidence in you.

You've done the greatest.

that way because I want you and Bob to stay at another level.

At some point, if I could suggest, if you initiated a request for him to come down and just spend a few minutes and maybe talk to him about the state of the union or something and send him back, that would mean more than if I sent him down sometime in terms of getting this thing on the right track.

I think I would rather put it off to you.

It's up to you.

In terms of that relationship, that has a way of getting around, and I say it's a cold, but I guess it's recognized.

That's how he makes a lot of it.

He can just go out and do the damn job.

Yeah, there's all points.

That's it.

Once you want to say that, he's off and running.

As a matter of fact, he's off and running now.

It isn't inhibiting.

It's getting to work.

No, but he's a guy.

There are two guys, Cole and Malik, that we should make sure, we should look for.

The singles around here that intend are going to be out, they should be in.

Well, why don't we have this discussion of appointments?

We can do that now.

Let's come back to that.

Maybe we should just put that off until after the inauguration.

Why not?

No.

Well, you know, this may be just disgusting.

I think Bob and I are going to spend some time this week disposing of the things that don't need your attention.

Right, right.

And let me say, I'll take the SEC.

And don't worry about it.

We've discussed it this morning, man.

Whatever.

You're a veteran.

Do your best.

I think the woman's fine for ABC.

What do you think, John?

Yeah, it isn't, you know, 100% important.

That's right.

To us, and there's a chance to make a point or two with the way that we see it.

Supposedly, the problem was that it was Halloween.

It's not as if it was a poster of one of the commission at all, and then I said, we cannot bring our people calling him, so Schlesinger must go talk to him.

Very candidly and say that he's Schlesinger, but not the president's trying to force you, but he'd like to get rid of him.

It's all he can do, but the president, and we've read from the president, the president will not do it.

That's all I can do to prove it.

That's all I can do.

He left that committee to take the chairmanship of the organization.

I don't think he is.

I may be wrong.

I think he's on.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

But it seems to me, John, that you're spending some time with quite a lot of these all of us.

Yeah.

We're not trying to do a thing.

We're trying to cut down on

that are in a position where you approve of the way of people that are your people and so forth and so on.

That is kind of the strategy.

He could, to the coordination required, you'd have to want to be in line and coordinate all the matters on energy first.

But if he did that, he would not be available with this element.

Whereas if that is done by bus, the bus is available with this element.

Isn't that a good point?

That's the line, absolutely.

And I'll make a point of getting up and seeing some of these folks.

Meet the press yesterday.

Not a single question.

Oh, I was going to ask you.

Not a one.

I'll have it in there.

Where they get you on the press.

Or under some consultation with the Congress and all that stuff.

Herb took the press question.

Spending and pounding budget cuts.

You knew that.

All that.

Watergate.

What did you say to Watergate?

I said to the bill, and I should tell you, I see it, but I don't agree with it.

Citi asked me, did I know the facts of what happened?

I said, no.

I said, did the president know?

I said, no.

He said, you mean with the biggest White House staff in history, you haven't investigated this and introduced the facts?

I said, no, we haven't.

He said, number one, we don't have the biggest White House staff in history, but number two, the FBI has conducted the most extensive investigation since Kennedy's assassination.

literally dozens of witnesses will be called in the prosecution.

And I said, all the letters are going to come out.

And we conducted our own investigation and established that nobody in the administration was involved.

But it's beyond that.

I'm not prepared to comment, except to tell you that I don't know what the inception of it all was or what lies behind it.

But I think that's the kind of thing that I'm going to say to the Biden administration.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're always involved.

Yeah.

I said, let me show you that.

Well, see, how do you follow up?

Now, that was a follow-up.

That was a follow-up.

So that was the end of it.

Then they asked Klein about Segretti.

Klein kept calling him Segretti.

And he turned it into a big, tight answer.

He said, you know what?

and find a very good answer on the double standard on Vietnam.

I saw that, which I thought was pretty nice.

That was very well done, yeah.

And he was lying there waiting for it.

During the commercial, we agreed that he'd reach for it and get it in.

I'm sorry.

No, he's he.

This runs back.

I don't know the reason for it.

I usually have had a bad stomach and he doesn't like that very well.

But I keep telling him how summer he is and it doesn't become him.

But he's basically just sour on the administration.

And I guess we

he was awful on the ground scene

Now I have two of my need to press panels.

Look, he's smart.

He stays out of the picture most of the time.

But see, I had a good preview.

There were two of them I meet the press guys.

on the Gramsci show, so I have to kind of scout the opposition.

Yes, I know that, yeah.

But it helps to read what they've written lately, and that's what they're saying, and it's kind of getting up to speed.

Let me say, John, the reason that I don't believe this is the critics of Iceland should know, but the reason is that it's very important that whoever is in this office not allow those critics

really aren't criticized for the purpose of trying to help the administration do better, but for the purpose, really, of forcing you to do something they want.

Yeah, you must not do

Our success, let me tell you, deep down, they're terrified of the thought that a negotiation might come on.

It may not.

And it may.

If it does, in fact, I'm more bullish on it than anyone else.

I'm never bullish on anything on this sort of thing because I'm more realistic than anyone else.

I constantly have to hold it back.

So I've just reviewed it over the last two years.

I was talking to y'all the other day.

I used to run over into the crowd.

I don't mind all of you, frankly, being exposed to the across the shows and seeing the press people in the back of your support group, in the country for some reason.

That's it.

You must do your job.

Only don't do it in a very cynical way, a cynical way.

But let's find out what the hell the press is saying so that you can answer them.

Don't go in there like that.

That's it.

The difficulty is that even some people like,

they get so emotional about the damn thing that they've already become almost unaffected.

Our whole view here should be one of, it is an isolation, and it is an arrogance.

But if you've got to be somewhat detached, or otherwise, you're going to be like Johnson.

Look, what is the pressure you're talking about?

Do they give Johnson any credit for the fact that

And in any respect, we're going to destroy them.

They ain't even alive.

I don't want you to pay any attention to these people, either one, when they're bored as devil.

I said, you've got to believe me.

And this is my philosophy.

Great decisions are being made.

When we make the Chinese decision, the Russians, the Falcons, they're made decisions.

Believe me, a great decision cannot be made.

And then, it can't be affected either by praise or by criticism.

You can't do it.

You've got to discipline your isolation.

The only reason to read those bastards, believe me, friends or foes, is to know what other folks are reading, so that you will know how to play along with them.

But don't be affected by them.

effect he says one of the one of the strongest weapons you have in a panel show is something that has been written by one of their colleagues or by the individual himself if you can turn on the question whether the president should consult with the congress or the press or others when he's in a negotiation and noise's thesis is he should not have

But the way he starts out, he says, a lot of people in this town who think they are entitled to be consulted with, among them my colleagues, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

And that's what's killing them, you see, because Johnson and even Kennedy used to call them in here and ask their opinion.

In fact, Eisenhower never did.

I don't think Truman ever did.

I bet he didn't.

Eisenhower never did.

But they loved the Kennedy.

That's because he did it.

Frankly, because he made them think their opinions mattered.

On the other hand, Johnson consulting with them didn't help one bit, because Johnson consulted and did not take their views.

And then they got even worse.

Sure.

If their opinion did matter with Kennedy, he not only consulted with them, he listened to them.

Perfect.

I broke my rule yesterday, and I did answer a question on Vietnam, which I had never done before.

Sure.

But only to use the noise article and turn it back on to the point that all through the great decisions that presidents in this century have made, there has been no consultation.

And that you cannot run the presidency by committees.

Uh, so, uh, I didn't call him in, and so in the end, I thought, or to read it.

Well, he did, and so in the end, I thought, or to read it.

But they're all wondering, even the television commentator talks about the wisdom of, you know, how far Congress is able to go in taking on the president.

There's a clear recognition that I know a lot on his side in this battle.

If there is indeed a battle, and Congress may not be too smart

Why do you think we should?

Nobody cared about that.

They only cared about the fact that the economy was starting to move up a little before the election.

That's why Trump won before he died.

And he was, of course, still in the Congress now, generally.

But my point is that these kinds of things, these stories, these stories about consultation and the role of the Congress and the rest of it, the countries all speak up about it.

Sure, they're talking about it in some other sophisticated ways.

Yeah, yeah.

political science, our classes, and all this.

We really don't get that too much.

I'm just confessing with the message in the meetings.

In the meetings, for example, John, with the committee and the Congress,

I'm glad we paid the high office because this Congress body is irresponsible.

other words to keep your

I just want one voice.

the congressional thing or the media thing?

That raises a question.

I assume Whitehead is under marching orders from you on this network business that he's engaged in.

Well, as a matter of fact, we decided several months ago that we want to build a network of these lawyers.

Are you concerned

You have a policy direction like this.

We have a way of disseminating it so we get everybody aboard.

This has not been disseminated in that way.

Chris and I weren't aware of it.

And so you've got various people around the house marching to different tunes.

I mean, some are against it, some are for it.

And I don't know how it was programmed.

What we've got to do is get everybody in court, so everybody's, whether they're for it or against it, start doing what you want them to.

And so we'll have to backtrack and get everybody in the fence.

I told the people in the fence.

Thank you very much.

So you've got to assume that they need to say to these people, is this likely to get out?

Now, are you, would you suggest that, having in mind that this might get out?

Oh, yes, and this is exactly what we've been saying to them.

Right.

Is that what you're saying?

Well, when you talk to him, I'm surprised that he's not aware of it, but he didn't have a line.

This is essentially what

He's just calling in to check to be sure.

We'll find you over there.

I have to say that based on the fact that nothing's happened up this night.

The changes, he said, wasn't in the way.

But you should take a very firm line with the Soviet.

And he's, to the effect that we are going

What drives their attitude is future support for the Congress.

The Congress will not continue to support them if they block what the Congress feels, what the country feels, what we feel.

We are going to go forward and make what we believe is a reasonable agreement.

I think we can.

We don't know that we can.

If we do, it would be such a great agreement.

The expecting to go on, or figured to go on, would result in absolutely certain congressional withdrawals.

I don't know if that's been sent to him because we don't want him leaking out.

I will tell him that we've written that to Juneau letter because inadvertently he's likely to just, you know, tell somebody in his staff and might put it out.

We do not want to have it.

In fact, we should have just simply said,

Thank you.

However, the ambassador has cautioned Saigon against their seeing the press.

They won't be able to hold off too long, but they may be able to keep that in bounds.

There was some concern originally that they might want to use the opportunity to get a

I had the sentiment that I had urged the ambassador here to come under no circumstances must they say anything publicly in this period of time.

But I think if Rajesh could say that he is, that the president feels very strongly and that he, Rajesh, feels strongly that it would be disastrous to their cause if they had any public comment, whatever, in any press statement, whatever, from here or Saigon, you're in.

distribution for the bigger negotiations to succeed.

And therefore, there must be warrants in the strongest possible terms.

There must be no statement from here or from Saigon at this time regarding the content of these negotiations.

Absolutely not.

The situation in Congress is much more difficult now.

That's about all I can give you.

Okay, thank you, sir.

Well, we'll, if you want to, as I understand it, we will have further discussion on these.

I suspect we will, but probably not before Wednesday.

Well, I just want to emphasize, John, don't get bogged down.

You see, here's the point.

We've spent a month right after the election working on reorganization and finding signs that that's what we're about.

And probably it's been quite a long term, short term.

We have to realize that that's sort of an essential in the long run in terms of trying to have a situation just like this where you have to handle a count officer with two gloves.

with Rogers.

I gave him the line.

He knows what the line is.

He's got it.

He's a woman.

They weren't there.

They weren't there anyway, you know.

Nevertheless, nevertheless, that's it.

Now, I would urge strongly that we not get so bogged down at this time in the plans for the inaugural and who's going to have the office next to the President's in the White House the rest of the way.

I think we can do both.

My life is a good deal easier right now because Cole has really taken over that whole thing.

I'm trying to get our counselors positioned, and I'm meeting with them occasionally.

But it really is a much better situation.

There's a couple of other things that I am going to try and use my time on.

One of them is to do a regular domestic briefing of the press.

You would do that?

Yeah.

Why don't we have Clawson?

Well, Clawson is going to be working on a day-to-day basis.

But about every two weeks, if I get up for an hour or an hour and a half and take questions, then when you have your press conferences, I think a lot of that poison will be drawn off on some of these speakers.

Well, I had one here the other day, and you said, when can I get out of it?

Well, I'll start right away.

Yeah, I can do it any time.

And it'll depend in large measure on what your desires are, and I take it you're not going to do anything until after the inauguration in any event.

Yeah, so...

then I'll adjust my appearances to what your plans are from time to time so that there's no redundancy.

But what I'll try to do is go out with a given subject, and usually one that we would rather see you stay away from,

I'll go out on civil rights or I'll go out on, you know, some damn thing.

Yeah, something.

And spend a few minutes and lay it out.

Take questions on that and then anything else they've got on their minds.

And try to keep the thing moving that way.

We well know you well know.

That's right.

That is why I'm very interested in doing this because they get it in the rescue.

They may get a question like, well, it's true.

Exactly.

I think that's a good solution.

Exactly.

You said it properly.

You did that something to the right.

gets us hardly possible to converse with the administration, guidance, and leadership.

But John's doing that in speaking.

Then it builds his position for dealing with the .. Well, but it also gives us a fallback.

And you can come out if they say, well, two weeks ago, Ehrlichman said so-and-so.

You're in a perfect position to say, well, I don't think I would have put it quite that way.

Sure.

And then take off on whatever line on reaction we see.

So we can do a little course correcting as we go along, depending on the reaction we get.

And so that's one thing.

Another thing that we're working on is, and I've mentioned this to you before, is a school or orientation.

the latter part of February, for cabinet, sub-cabinet, agency heads, and key people.

To teach them what policy is, how to work with the White House, how to use the OMB, those kinds of things.

How to clear testimony, that's both kinds of stuff.

What about the school, the Republican members?

I've been talking to Bill a little bit about not Republicans, but a bipartisan swinging unit of supporters.

Maybe we can assemble 50, 60, 70 guys that we can always count on.

That's right.

And maybe some other kinds of Democrats.

I had this young freshman senator from Louisiana come up to me the other night, and he said, I voted with you today.

And I just want to let you know that I'm going to be with you all the time I'm here.

And I said, Senator, that's, you know, music to my ears.

And he said, no, I mean it.

He said, I'm a team player, and I'm on your team.

That's right.

And I said, okay, great.

And I put his name on the list.

I mean, that's the kind of guy that we ought to be just cultivating the hell out of.

You know, he didn't do much better than Paul getting a lift there.

on Vietnam on the foreign policy, and he's with us completely.

They'll force him to take the party thing on some things, but he is a super Nixon admirer now.

And he's on the paper this morning saying so.

Oh, he said, I can't disagree with the way the president's handled this.

They were active in consulting with the Congress and so on.

The president's done it exactly right.

Yeah, that area.

It's in there.

Sacramento or Tulare or Fresno or the Valley, something like that.

Well, he's been with you all along.

He's one of the deputy whips.

Tip O'Neill's high on him.

Now, Bredemus is another deputy whip.

He is all partisan and firing for himself, and he's got a nasty article in the op-ed page of the Times today, and he'll be breathing down my false neck.

Brademus is the one that my man always thought he could work on.

Yeah.

Everybody in the, you know, Elliot Richardson always thought he could work on Brademus, too.

There's only one time I ever remember having any success with Brademus, and that's when we cut his water off in his district.

We chopped all his AGW and all his AGP money, but we got what we wanted.

I forgot what it was at the time.

It was something on an education bill.

All Indiana politicians bite the ground.

And he's a typical Indiana politician.

They're very excited.

He's pretty leftist.

Right.

And intelligent with it all.

Correct.

Right.

But I think we have...

You know, it's really something.

Jerry Ford, and I must say, if you don't have a horse, you can't do it right anyway.

But he was coming to the fight, and his old man went along.

He lost.

Oh, he's not going to die.

But anyway, for Jerry Ford to let Wilson hang on,

slash signed about Ford.

This may be Ford's last term.

No, he wants to go out and make some money.

Apparently he's had an offer.

His wife told my wife one of those things.

And I think what he's doing is sitting it out and see if we get a Republican House.

He's been there so long, he's probably getting up on it.

And if I die with it, I will be.

He's a good soldier to the extent of his ability.

He is not a super-able soldier when it gets into the deafness.

But I'll tell you, a really able guy, a really able guy couldn't do that job.

He would be resented.

One of Ford's, one of the bases of his acceptance is that he's not flagging.

Basically, that he's not flagging.

And that he doesn't listen to them.

And Mr. Buckwold did, and Bob Wilson as well.

He doesn't take on the hard pilots.

And the rest, I mean, it's strange, but it's not...

It's gonna happen in Illinois, son of a bitch.

He's starting to suck around.

I'm sorry.

We need everybody we can get to make him pay for what he gets.

Oh, Lord.

We're getting mailed out.

That's almost beyond the call of duty.

Yeah.

I know, but I know that he is so bad.

Except if you criticize yourself.

Except the other thing.

The other thing about that, though, is that you have to be sure that you don't see what happens.

That is, good heavens, don't see the purses and not see the bobber.

Yeah.

It's really a constant, constant problem.

You intend to do the job.

Oh, I think so.

You sure know McGregor?

I think we have to give him a lot of help.

Well, that's where you...

I think a lot of us can do that.

And those were announcements that all of us started seeing in Congress, and that certainly is set forward.

I think that's something the Department of Defense should be kind of comfortable with.

Mr.

Colonel, I'm going to get that to you.

One thing that is going to be coming up, or is, George has got in the middle, is the question of the wage price announcement.

And his feeling is that that ought to be Thursday or Friday of this week.

Get it done.

So he's got a big rhythm coming in for your funding decision to go.

It's substantially what you saw in the decision.

Yeah.

I think that's, I don't know whether.

Well, I want to, I had a chance to read it that we got this morning, but I'll look and see if it's the same as what you saw before.

I think it is.

Yeah, I talked to him about it.

He's not shocked at all right now.

He's doing some.

You could go in the press room and say, here's what we're doing, and then turn it over to him for questions.

The polls are showing a very strong support for this kind of thing.

And the New York Times was absolutely lyrical yesterday about the economy and about spending limitations.

I never saw such a

And I'm sure that we want to do that at the present time.

I have a, everybody's got a very bad intuition here.

At this point, my intuition is usually not at all on public exposure.

You know, a couple of times we want to go all out on it.

And let me put it this way, too.

As far as the President was concerned, subject A is not wage and price controls, or the relation of the Congress subject A to Vietnam.

If I go out there and say that I'm going to talk about wage and price controls, and I make a foolish statement,

I know everybody feels that you, when there is a subject that is on the front burner, that you distract people by going off.

I will talk to you later.

And he's the right one to answer the questions and so on.

I do think that some overt evidence of your intention to promulgate is not helping.

Yeah, that's good.

I agree.

I guess you're correct.

Well, I understand where it's, I understand.

And we can have a, we can have a, if you take a meeting or a jail, so we can keep those out of Greece.

That's perfectly all right.

I'll gesture that.

It should be the end of this week.

It could be Friday.

We're sending the thing up to the hill.

It'll probably be Thursday.

Unless we want to give it by sending it Friday.

It's a shame nobody's here.

I don't know if it's the point that I can get.

There'll be a good weekend reaction to this.

I think.

A lot of the comments by various people who are being programmed probably haven't been commented on.

I think it's going to be perhaps even better.

We should have one.

We may have it next year.

Joe Barr, the former Secretary of Treasury, was on radio and television this weekend.

The second president has done exactly the right thing.

would be a good year, and he said 74 will be a good year unless the Congress disregards the present and oversells.

Pretty good.

Of course, you could make an argument the other way.

I well remember John in 19...

Well, on the economy, I don't know that it will this time.

We'll have to watch very closely all through this period of time and be prepared if

your position in such a way, well, see, our position, housing, is that it's a moratorium.

It's not a permanent thing.

And that's variable.

That's part of the discretionary.

There's about a six-month delay in the housing bills.

So we have to leave the duck by six months, but we can open her back up again.

Oh, somebody was studying.

I heard that it just came, for our purposes, just about the right time.

Because the economic issue, which we all, I think, should be cleared.

I think it turned out to be a policy.

Partly because of the jackass on the other side who sees on our black market.

Partly because we've got to get a hold of it.

But also, you know, unemployment and taxes, those two issues, we had a big tax money.

Also, though, because the trend was in the right direction.

Well, I know the trend is, believe me, I think it was good.

You know, people can be convinced that it's bad and old.

Even when the sun is shining, they'll say it's raining.

The unemployment thing, though, and here again, Barr says, I think that we'll be at a,

more optimistic than our guys are being by the launch.

But the thing is running.

The stream is running in the right direction.

And that helped the November round.

Oh, it helped the stream.

It was good.

That was very, very exciting.

We've got to get Rockefeller at the next time.

Well, as a matter of fact, I think it's correct.

As a matter of fact, I think we ought to move in that direction.

What do you think?

I think we should.

Southern California has recovered pretty well.

Yeah, pretty well.

We bought Southern California.

We must have paid for that.

Nobody needed it.

We must have paid $100,000 a few days.

Look at what you did in Orange County.

There are a couple of good contracts coming up for Long Island.

We're trying to get them.

It's touchy-toe to do.

Is Rockefeller going to vote for government again?

I can't tell.

What he's not allowed to do, he's got Arthur Levin, who is a comptroller of the state and is a Democrat.

He wants to run for mayor of New York.

Levin?

He's run before.

Well, he's going to run again.

No.

happy today that Rocky came down.

He has in mind that 11 can beat Mr. Clemson, but his fallback is to run Javits, sir.

I understand there's some Italian policeman up there also.

Oh, um, uh, Carolee?

Not Carolee, sir.

I don't know who it would be.

I don't know.

But anyway, he kind of laid this out in a very sketchy way for me.

He said, we're going to beat Lindsey, but we're going to beat him with Leavitt or Javits.

And I said, well, Javits goes.

And he said, Javits is the only thing I ask you.

Well, Javits will have primary opposition, if there's any question, from the conservative Javits.

Well, now, he did say he might even wheel conservatives for Javis.

Okay, but if he doesn't go semi-president for the Senate, he's going to go for the Senate.

Yeah, the Senate.

No question.

He might be an incentive to Javis to go for mayor because of the fight he's going to have in that Senate.

Also, Javis is never going to go anyplace.

Yep.

How old is he?

I don't know, but he's right around 70.

It's remarkable, you know, how these, how the appearances are so important.

Everybody always wants to watch that.

Because people do notice when they go down and tie her down.

That's right.

They watch as my mother hands down.

I identify as I met the new Republican Congressman.

Snikers and people like that.

Yeah.

They'll be men.

I don't know.

I met them over there.

I just certainly laid it around.

And there were a lot of them.

We didn't have some.

We started racing with Snikers.

No.

Very bland kind of butts.

There were guys there who had been somebody's AA or, you know, they didn't seem to be like that.

Those guys were awesome.

They told a lot about their wives.

I saw a damn few pretty wives.

Yeah.

As a matter of fact, Democrat or Republican, there weren't so many Democrats there, as a matter of fact.

But even those, they were not impressive, too.

I think the Democrats were impressive.

As a matter of fact, Bennett Johnson was one of the more impressive.

And I must say, sure, you've got to look at this all the way.

I mean, of course, you've got to be part of this.

Most of you are in Maine.

You've got a man who's going to vote for a woman at 75 years old, and instead of hand-awaying her,

You've been around the label, don't you?

Yeah, sure.

And you look at the guy here who was here from Iowa, he isn't much to look at, you know, sort of heavy set and so forth and so on, but he at least looks a lot like him and never looks tired.

Yeah.

He's an impromptus guy from Colorado.

That's the difference.

The guy from Colorado, at least, is not impromptus.

Yeah, was he there against Allen?

Yeah.

Tracking guy.

Oh, yes, he was a good looking guy.

Yeah.

with a bright-looking wife.

They were a good-looking couple.

She was a really good-looking person.

They had real, you know, they had the stars in their eyes.

They were upbeat, young, as if there was something in the other's look, too.

I don't know.

I don't want to run our guys down, you know.

But then I just felt, I just felt, again, Wilson had let us down, so maybe we let him.

I don't know.

That's our fault.

We've got to do something about the candidates.

But we're doing what we're doing.

First, we had to get elected ourselves.

We were following Connelly and Mitchell, who were the two wisest men I know, and Murray, who was in them, all agreed that the best tactic was to run as well as we can.

And Connelly said, they've got to grab your coach.

You can't pull them off.

He's right.

Bush totally agrees with that, too.

And these guys knew one at a time what you talked about.

What did they say?

Just that, that it wouldn't have made any difference to Allen or to

Why hold that market?

Those three, no difference.

I just did it.

Thank you.

No presidents ever called at all.

So how the hell can we justify going down?

And of course, we did go to Kentucky, but didn't quite make it.

We got a pretty good path.

And none of it wasn't going to help.

It was very difficult.

I asked this old boy from Colorado why he beat Allen.

He said, I don't know.

I think it was the Olympic Games.

He's an environmentalist.

Well, he was on the right side of that issue.

And Allen was on the wrong side for the mass of people.

If he really wants to put it down to us, he'll do it because of the personality of it.

In the Senate, personality matters a great deal.

In the House...

I mean, because they vote in the national elections, they're thinking about presidents, but they do think about senators.

And God damn, you think of Alec, and you see Alec is a singularly depressing guy, but he's so negative in his personal field.

And his wife is the same.

Why do you need an old bitch wife to hold you down?

And you've got to be sort of smiling, maybe even hungrier, maybe just dying to feel that.

lead, charge, and so forth.

It's right around here, you know.

Why I thought McGregor was so important is because McGregor was bouncy.

I never came in with a long face.

You know?

I don't think that McGregor was aware that there were difficult problems, but he never brought them in here.

And you need people that will come in bouncy, you know?

I don't mean in this office.

That personality thing is right, and I think it is.

You're going into a state to try to prop up a cyber attack.

No way to do it.

Yes, you can do it.

Well, there is a church.

Well, a pretty good example of it was there in Oklahoma.

And I'm just going to say that constantly.

It is impossible.

We may have pushed him over with that.

Yeah, I think he did bark, but I think he mixed up.

He mentioned that he barked, but we should have heard some of that.

And I think he helped us.

He very well probably put that in there.

I'm the man that you think you put him on.

I'm a New Mexico guest.

We didn't do retention, but at least we kept Tom in the room.

Just under those two columns.

I don't know whether we got that.

Oh, yeah.

It's going to have at least two solid boats.

Do you want to run down on the water?

Oh, yes.

Well, the way it appears now is that Hunt is going to take a guilty plea on three counts.

And he'll do it after Silver's opening statements.

The jury has been sequestered.

They will ask him, presumably, whether there were any higher-ups involved.

After he takes his guilty plea, he'll say no.

And he'll go to jail.

The rest, apparently, will go to trial.

The attorney for the Cubans, this guy Rothblatt, is a super guy who wants to, I mean, a zealot who wants to play the game with him.

Liddy is not going to go, he's going to go for an instant plea, go to trial on the basis of the hope for an error, that he thinks he can screw something up somewhere, that they'll screw something up somewhere and get off.

They all will sit mute.

None of them will testify.

too worried about his taking the stand.

All of the Cubans and Liddy, if convicted, which presumably they will be, and if immunized after conviction by the Congress in order to take them up there, her staff, will sit mute and will take contempt of Congress charges rather than testifying for Congress, at least that's their present position.

Can the Congress bring them up and immunize them?

Can the court immunize them?

Grant jury.

Grant jury proceeding.

The court immunizes them.

And what the procedure would be after their sentence to bring them back in.

The grant jury or the Congress, either one.

But they intend, the Cubists intend not to talk.

Did you see the party's random story over the weekend?

There's a story loose to the effect that this is a CIA unit that has bagged a lot of embassies here, hopefully including the Chilean embassy.

And that's been kicking around now for two, three weeks.

Newsday climbing around as a story.

And they assert that there is a CIA project officer who has run this unit, and they've been in existence for some time.

That may be part of them introducing that as a defendant.

The one thing Dean raises in the congressional thing is whether we have in any way any hard evidence that the plane was bugged.

of going for an attempt to force the Congress to investigate hanky-panky in both 68 and 72, rather than letting them just go to an investigation of 72 activities.

And he can't conceive that we can't also start voting on individual senators and some of the problems they wouldn't like, nothing as to what they've done and not done.

But also the question of whether, see that plane bug pen was logged out.

And who had the story?

Somebody.

Remember, the star had the story.

And Johnson admitted it.

I understand.

Well, sort of.

Did you talk to him?

He got kind of, but he finally, no, George Christian, he finally, he admitted it to George.

The question is whether we have any hard evidence on it.

The only input we have on it is Jamie LaRuever, who's dead, I presume.

Well, Pete DeLoach is around.

He's never...

We have nothing now as far as Johnson.

I play that right up in the hill.

What does it do to the girl?

It's a nasty story, but it's just too bad.

They should not have bugged the game that he was playing.

Johnson, interestingly enough, was making, he sent me a handwritten letter.

He had a letter from some guy down there to you saying, you know, hang tight on Vietnam.

You're doing the right thing.

And he's playing a lot.

He said,

I think what you can do on this one, I think the one call that I did to you, I'll go with it.

I'll go with it.

Yes.

Great.

I don't know where he is.

As you know, politically, I'm not sure where he's coming out.

As you probably saw, Strauss invited him back and invited him to bring his following with him.

I saw that, which is a total reversal of the original strategy position, which was to tell him to go to hell.

I don't know what it is.

I don't know what

because basically, to be frank, I'd like to get him moved, not for the purpose of helping the goddamn Republican Party, but for the purpose of having some other horse in hand.

for a long time, but Connelly could be the answer to that opinion.

Do you understand?

Sure.

We go into Texas, and we have that whole black and brown air movie.

Well, Connelly would just make the move.

We've got his, well, there's plenty ready to roll.

That's right.

But Connelly's, Connelly's identity is, well, including Byron Bush, quite an expression, I'm sure, quite a respectability about him.

But, uh,

I think you have got to have a man heart to heart.

But coming back to this, he said, I don't want to see him.

I mean, I don't want to get into it.

He said, I very much want to see him afterwards because I've got to go over to maybe Eastern.

Oh, I don't want a lot of other things he wants to be working on.

I say, whatever he does, we're going to get along with him because we owe him something.

But on the other hand,

I know a great deal, or just a modest amount.

In Conley's case, he didn't have a lot of ink up his mind.

He wants a political future, John, if he has any other aspirations, despite his denials, which I think are, in a way, honest with you.

I think they are.

He's smart.

Yeah, he's smart.

He doesn't want, basically, he knows it's a hell of a price to run for president.

So he never collapses, but he never gets out of the doghouse.

Now the problem we've got here is that in this office, Tom would be infinitely better.

There's no question about it.

And frankly, John, I think that basically there's a

You don't have to talk me into that.

We have a lot of leverage of economy on this energy thing right now.

Yeah.

And this would be an awful good time to know where he's headed if we could possibly... Well, coming back to your business about that place, I saw the shirt about the Algerian problem with the city service.

No, no.

Our import bank in return is going to screw that up.

city service, Saudi Saudi Arabia.

So which is kind of the Algerian

All you have to do is to have it out and just put it out on authority and press all right to God, man, sorry.

And the star of it is going to run in somebody's mouth.

Well, I think in a congressional context, you have to be in a position to go to somebody like Peter Humphrey and say, Senator, there are very strong reasons why this whole inquiry happened.

Here's a statement that I'll show you by a fellow who was at the Bureau at the time.

And I think you'll see the information.

But why don't you get a hold of Mitchell and see what he can do.

I assume Mitchell has been close.

Mitchell has said Bob.

He has said, and Jay Aker, who we're totally...

Or did we suspect it?

Well, I think it was in that whole period of time involving bugging and the question of authorization of bugging and all that shit, that there was a lot of controversy at one point.

Well, and Hoover was ingratiating himself with you and was arguing around about how Johnson had the White House telephone lines all monitored and all that stuff, telling you what you ought to watch out for and what he was up to.

Yeah.

How would you go about it, John?

Well, let's find out if Mitchell has any heart.

He may have squirreled away some files or something.

If he didn't, then I don't see the reason why we should have gone to Deloach.

Just say we've got this.

Well, doesn't he still work for Kendall?

Sure, yeah.

Did Deloach tell you?

No.

Who'd he tell?

He told Mitchell, I believe.

Mitchell talked to him.

Well, you've got to find out who he told.

Yeah.

And then we go to Deloach, and Deloach has got a complaint on him.

Yeah.

We'll go to Kendall, and Kendall puts the arm on him and says he's got it on himself.

in order to do it.

He did have the President's money bucket.

That's the President's money bucket.

One of the witnesses is a recent one, of course, he said, I don't have any information about Vietnam anymore.

He did a hell of a lot of his own stuff and everything else.

You could try one of the witnesses.

I was going to say, one of the witnesses in the Watergate case is going to be a kid with a hunt recruit who was in the Muskie headquarters and then in the McGovern headquarters and worked for Hunt, was paid $3,500, and finally broke off with Hunt because he refused to bug him.

uh, Gary Hart's telephone over from the government headquarters.

That's going to reopen and re-escalate this whole, this whole, uh, political sabotage that's inside the UPS, and that'll come fairly early in the trial, I would think, because that's part of the truth.

Now, if, if Hunt pleads in his sentence,

I don't know where they're living.

What about the Congress?

Oh, yeah.

There'll be no one of those guys around.

That's what he said.

We can come down to that, though.

So he was in the headquarters.

Well, I mean, the headquarters.

That, believe me, doesn't bother me too much.

There are people flying to the headquarters all the time.

You know, the posture of this is that people don't know that.

It isn't commonly understood out around the country, but this is done and has been done in former years.

We know that.

That's right.

Sure.

Well, let me say, we have to use the...

It is apparently true, because when the flag arose, and Christian, see, you had told Christian that we knew it.

And Christian, with that knowledge, was playing the other side over President Johnson, calling him the problem, and Christian played it.

Johnson, you know, said, well, there is something to this.

We can't just deny it.

You can't ask the administration to lie, because it's provable and known by other people.

Johnson said, well, maybe it was done, but

He's just sitting there.

So when that comes on, it comes on.

I haven't heard that he would.

I would doubt it.

So I didn't say that he was in the headquarters.

I'm pretty sure he was in the Muskie headquarters.

But what's a $35 guy do in the headquarters?

I mean, he just worked there.

Oh, he sent out schedules and white papers and just whatever he could lay his hands on, I guess.

And he didn't mind doing that, but when they asked him to,

I can't answer that.

You see what I'm saying?

Muskie or somebody.

I don't know.

That's right.

It doesn't add up.

And I'll have a piece of your story.

I certainly like the idea of you doing the briefs.

Well, I think it's just as well.

And I can frankly do them every Thursday.

on Thursdays.

Then you see, as I get into the press conference deal, there'll be occasions when I'll step up and do the figures.

Well, it'd be very easy to turn dates off.

Well, what I meant is, if you don't do it, but find out whether we have a Thursday, then I could be in a position to move up and take the bond situation.

I feel this is going to be a very, very, very, very,

Let me ask you about Klein.

I still have a feeling that Klein has done a hell of a good job.

And maybe he could be useful to us.

I think exactly what he is.

All right.

Who's going to run the office?

Don't run the office.

Run another ziggler's office.

Which is what we're going to do anyway.

As far as the action, we're really going to operate the ziggler's office.

Totally separately from the client.

There's no Rudy out there or anything.

Klein just becomes a small individual entity as director of communications who does this movement.

The problem is getting him out of it.

And if you make a consulate, you get him out of it.

You have to press him, put him in the cabinet, downgrade that, and I'm strong.

I agree.

I mean, the White House, I guess consulars always sit in the White House.

I don't know.

I hadn't had that in mind.

I hadn't put it as a councilor role, and he will be one of the other councilors.

I think it was directed to my patients, or excuse me, the facade of the communications office, but then cut it way back down.

And I think we hit him hard enough now that I can talk to him about that on a different kind of basis.

You create an enormous, sticky puzzle of molasses.

What does he do?

Have you had any talk with him about what he's going to do with the others, or whatever?

Not in any, but yeah, he's got, he wants to go back to California.

He's determined on that.

He doesn't, he isn't interested in any of the things in any of the rest of the country.

Doesn't want to go to New York, doesn't want to stay in Washington, doesn't want to take anything in the Midwest.

You know, there were some possibilities.

He's not interested.

He's still considering going to something in this anniversary of journalism.

That's all.

Still considering the copy opportunity, but he's not quite sure how to go at it, and he can't figure out how to do it.

His gym is, you know, 90% dead, but he never dies.

And he's not sure how to go at that.

And the other thing is some weird political thing in the adventure.

He comes to the coalescing factor of the Republican Party in California,

I mean, I don't know what the hell they're talking about.

But it's one of those pure inventions that hurt things, maybe makes some sense.

That's all right.

Go on, if you want to say something.

If somebody wanted to do that with me, I'd say, well, we have no problems there.

That's up to those inventions people out there.

Maybe that's the best thing we can do.

It isn't, but we just can't.

Mother can't.

Both Bob and Herb forever.

Oh, we tried with Herb on the basis of the claims and things that he ought to be interested in doing.

He pissed them off.

So, uh... Those are what it boils down to.

The Copley job is the one he ought to take.

He can go back in and have a good spot.

And Mrs. Copley will use him as her agent, apparently.

She doesn't trust the other people in there.

And Mrs. Copley will have control when Jim dies.

And Herb could be in a hell of a spot.

He could

He's touching on how to go into it with Jim.

I'll certainly let him stay here in this thing for a few months.

I mean, he can be useful to us.

All right.

Useful.

But I'd say to him, look, Kirk, six months from now, you've got to have it ready to go.

The thing that we've got to get out of, and it's the hard thing when he's here, is the business of programming, selecting and programming the DIOs and departments, which is a great part of our plan.

The whole idea of the blossom concept and everything is to get good people in there, as we've done

Oh, this is subsurface.

You don't really know anything about it, and you don't need to, except that it's just exciting as hell.

Well, this thing of the personnel guys in the departments, we really do have a chance to get into the schedule C's and this kind of stuff because of the guys we're putting in there.

And we're going to run rims around some of these things that these guys produce.

Now, some of them won't work.

They're all our people, but some of them won't be effective.

Some

what Colson had over here by 1,000 to 1, almost literally 1,000 to 1, because you've got 1,000 people in those offices around the government.

We'd get a put-together run on it.

But if Hurd gets into it and mushes around in it, he undercuts Ron's authority, he undercuts Colson's authority.

He can't lie about it.

Because you are leaving, we've got to move now on a new organization.

On the other hand, you should retain your title.

And you should completely divest yourself of all operational activities and be a spokesman.

Because you're a hell of a spokesman.

We need a spokesman.

And you should, just like it was in the campaign, but all operational activities are now finished.

And we'll see that he's, you know, gets an opportunity to.

He's got a lot of an AA we'll let him keep and a secretary.

Actually, we can let him handle the letters to editors stuff.

Yeah, not the, you know, the letter from her client to the editor saying thank you for your editorial and that kind of stuff.

Okay.

And that's the thing, though, that that's the way you've got to do it, Herb.

And I get that done right away when, say, Herb gets busy.

Now, there's contact with editors and publishers.

That's right.

Telephone calls, contacts, and so on.

The problem was that she'd get one or two good editorials in her mail, and then she'd check them.

There hadn't been a response from her, which they're all going to have to be because he wasn't fast on them.

But there were hundreds of them that did have responses on them.

And, you know, he missed some.

He's a lousy operator.

He doesn't do a good job.

And he can't see them.

He wants those.

He can't put good people in there.

We tried that, too.

We tried to put good people in there.

And they went nuts.

Now, Klausen we had in there, ostensibly, has urged deputies

Why can't they work together?

Because Herb is so ushy that nothing ever happens.

He insists on personally approving everything and never gets earned to him.

And he's more interested in dealing with the issue of the moment than he is in getting the work done.

He doesn't grind on anybody.

Oh, the other thing I want to ask you about, have you talked to Colson about the Webster thing?

No.

I don't have, that's, I don't think it went down today.

I don't think it went down today.

We ought to get into that with him.

Because I can follow him now.

With Webster, it has occurred to me, too, that you have to have a backup position.

I don't mean you particularly.

What I'm saying is you've got to realize at this point if you pull Webster off, it's going to be ruinous to his practice.

Let me talk to Trevor about what we do.

We ought to be able to do something that would fit better.

We need to do something.

We've got to do something that doesn't have to be confirmed, don't you?

No, we've got to confirm something else.

If we get him back on the legal side somewhere, he'd be all right.

Yeah.

Or he may not want to do something.

He may want to just say that he's pushing through.

See, he can take the initiative and just say there's going to be too much of a fight on confirmation.

I just said not to get into it.

It's political.

You haven't talked to Colson.

Why didn't I meet with Colson?

Why didn't you tell him exactly what the problem is?

I had an interview recently with me and a lawyer.

I'll tell them exactly what the problem is and that it's not doable.

It's going to get us into a thing where the guy's going to be partialized.

And that is the fight that we're able to carry on at this point, which Chuck will recognize.

Now, he'll argue, Yabich, it's worth it for this good a man.

The answer is, it's only worth it for this good a man if you get it.

If we're going to lose it anyway, then it's ruinous to the guy you do it.

It's going to expose him and his shady

It's a heavily mobilized opposition.

And it's in this one, the Caesar's wife thing becomes important.

It's one of the few.

Why don't you want me to see, check with you?

No, I don't think you need to unless you want to.

I think it's easier for me to talk to him.

It's a little tough to check to him.

Yeah.

Basically, he wants to talk to you.

Yeah, then you can say, just say it.

Don't tell him you brought him to the meeting.

That's right.

I was going to say, if he wants to kill you, I was going to say that the appointment I told him about at 3.30.

It was 3.30.

Thank you.

I think it's better if I just talk to him.

You know, I don't know.

It's a possibility.