Conversation 840-012

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Well, how'd the announcement go?

Pretty hard.

After what we've done.

All the war years.

We've made some in a big place.

There's much that we've certainly done that we should try.

Not an unexpected.

No, it was totally unexpected.

What did they ask you about why you were going?

I said, well, the same reason he went in June of 1972.

Consistent with the Shanghai communique.

My answer there is that the trip is not related to Vietnam, even though it follows closely on the Hanoi trip.

However, both sides are free to bring up whatever subject they'd like.

the normalization of our issues.

I just wanted to say, I couldn't answer that one because Cora's defense has been bad, too, with the blood clot.

And after she got through it, she wanted me to know, you know, a whole lot of things, which I listened.

And she said it made her feel so much more secure and better.

And I talked to her.

It was a great idea having to call her because she just went on and on.

Told me the whole thing about her, what she was doing, and how she first saw him, about the kids running up the street, and

And she really is, she only saw him yesterday for the first time.

You told her that the first time.

Yeah, you had asked me to call.

She knew that I had mentioned you to her.

Yes, and I told her I'd send her, I'm going to send her some of those, some of that stuff.

I didn't tell her that.

You could send her to a press conference in particular if you wanted to see her.

And we would, I was not coming out only because I wanted to see her.

The doctors told me.

Well, he's still in the intensive care unit.

He doesn't know where they're getting him.

Don't give me that message.

She said the three of us threw the operation and there was a little...

He'd gotten hit on the top of his head probably because Bubba had gotten hurt.

And they'd taken everything that we'd said before the shot in the head.

They didn't shoot him in the head.

They shot him after the shot.

Jesus Christ.

And as a man of society...

That's true.

Never been unkind to anybody that I don't know.

But she really was very sweet and she appreciated your having a call and talking about how wonderful you and Pat have been to them through the years.

So it did hurt, I think, a little bit, just to check.

I mean, did we interrupt?

The other, I'm sorry, the other, the calls, you get the news summary so that they don't, so that it doesn't get to you four days in a row.

One was Ash and the other was the one.

Yes.

So you, you could just, just call them.

Henry was on his way in.

He wasn't like this.

Oh, yes, he was.

I think he should do that today, then.

I think he should get that thing over with so that it isn't old news.

I mean, there's still some interesting things in the middle of the audience.

Yes, I think that he was written behind that.

See, he could film it.

And you've got to talk to Barbara Ballard and say, look.

I've already talked to her about it.

I've already talked to her.

It calms.

It calms a little bit.

Well, I talked to her about that.

Which is right.

To a degree.

No.

More color and more things.

Yeah.

It occurred to me that you wanted to give Al Haig a call.

Okay.

Oh.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you get me in report later, if you will.

Fine, fine.

I've told her.

the course of their operation.

So that's a man, 73 years of age.

Which goes up and down in these reports.

Takashi infected and took it with us after the second day.

Of course, I always never believed Takashi to be such an alarmist.

You know, the thing I wanted to say, I wanted to run into, so that you could kind of

I told him just to be absolutely firm on this business of the press triangle with you.

Because the success of everything we've done here is that we have insisted that negotiations are for the purpose of negotiating, not the purpose of listening.

You've got it all over the world.

in the press, they would be tracked from your store to ours by going around to all the places and getting North Vietnamese and saying how they hated America and all that sort of thing, and they hated the President Xi Jinping.

Now should we tell the North Vietnamese we don't want any?

Should we tell them up to now that it's up to them whether they let any?

Well, I think from our standpoint, Henry, we've got to say to the North Vietnamese it's up to them.

Because if we get in a position, we'll be sitting there.

I put it this way, that you're not bringing any press because this is a private meeting.

Here's what I'd like for you to do.

I'm detecting an animal well.

You see, you're not bringing any press because it's a private meeting.

You will not meet the press.

There will be no way that they could do that, you know what I mean?

If they work this thing out for her.

Well, the way we've discussed it is that no statement from any, you know, no community or anything.

No pictures.

about Henry's trip, at least unless, well, unless it is jointly agreed.

Right.

You could say that as far as the decision with regard to Preston is theirs, but that it is, and you're not, but that basically we have found that these conversations of this type are much more productive and constructive

There is less press than when there's more.

I think if you could say that, then the message is there.

Otherwise, they may invite in 100 press people.

They won't if you tell them, see, if you let them do it, then they want you there.

They want the goddamn press there.

And if they got the feeling that you tell them you're not going to talk to the press, you're there to do business, not to make publicity.

I mean, so far they've done nothing.

And we've laid out strict rules as to the fact that there can be no interviews.

I worked it out with Rand before I went in, that there could be no release of pictures except by joint agreement.

That they can let the press in, they can let photographers in at the beginning of a meeting, but then the pictures would be released only by joint agreement.

It's a few more restrictions like that.

But we did say that we are not bringing press and we won't meet with the press.

But it's up to them to decide whether they want anyone in.

We had to say that.

Yeah, because if not, they'll turn it on us.

That way, just so you've got the record prepared, we might get up to that.

But even if the American press are in there, people going in there now, we can still keep control of it by this situation you've run down.

Absolutely.

Herb is not there to be a spokesman.

He understands that.

The way it's worked before, Henry, is where you cable back.

We can't just take poop in China.

I mean, I don't think he does as a damn bit of good as we have done.

Well, he can go on.

No, I think it's very good they have him along simply to say no.

That's a good one.

Every request from the press and all the rest, they'll be there.

I know, I know, I know.

But there will be requests that will come into the party.

There will be American press there.

You can be sure of that.

And just as well, they have a man there.

There's just no available.

That's the best thing.

The press man is the best man to do that.

The way it's been working with your cables coming back on the joint announcement is that about the time that Illinois is making the announcement about Dr. Kisker today, that four hours, whoever, week,

And now it's here in the environment here, and that takes all the, you know, spark of the annoying thing.

Don't you think so?

Oh, yeah, we can get them to release and accept it at a green time.

The best way to control people in these countries is just for me to tell you that we will not do it.

And they will.

I mean, I told him that Murray Marder shouldn't see anybody.

than he could have done here.

You saw nobody.

The highest official he saw was the information, the chief of the information bureau of the foreign office and the mayor of Haifa.

Well, anyway, the only... You're going to have Matthew...

They'll have people in there, I think.

So far, we haven't.

So far, no.

What I meant is, it won't be so much American, but there'll be writers, and there'll be French, and there'll be all those, and there'll be dissenting, and, uh, and that, uh, that will be very good just in terms of saying no.

I think it will work, Mr. President.

So that you don't have to say no.

I want you to, and I want Winston Lohr or somebody like that to say no.

But the way I've handled it in China,

which is part of the interest here, when you've announced the trip and all the rest of this thing, God damn it, I'll bet you haven't heard.

It may be covered in terms of press interest, but if I am sure of one thing, it is that no one moves in Hanoi, that they don't want to move.

If there's a phone in there at all.

But I'm sure no one needs to be turned up because no one will be able to get through.

And I'm sure they will not have people standing outside.

Because first, people probably will not know where they stand.

Second, they won't let them stand there.

But I have no objection to who wants to be alone.

The main thing is, if there's, you know, a scene.

like we've done in the past, and that gets the flow of news coming from, you know, nothing will be announced that is not announced simultaneously here.

If there's a joint statement, it will be announced.

And the other thing is with regard to the press on the POW thing, which is only related to it, we are going to stand absolutely firm that there are no press to be allowed that goes to the POWs until they get on to their families.

Absolutely.

This is my people.

These guys have been away.

We don't know what their condition is.

We're not trying to.

They'll get a chance to see them.

But they should not be exploited and passed on for the press after this terrible experience that they've been through.

Not without them for us.

I want defense.

I know Elliot said, well, we'll do our best to get you in.

No, sir.

I think Elliot should stomp on that.

And on the base that I said in my press statement.

is to get them all, and then they can see the press if they want, not if the press wants.

It's their decision.

Richardson, I think, will get information to you as soon as possible.

Richardson will do whatever he says, but I know he's under enormous pressure.

He will be under pressure.

DOD is very clear on the fact that no press will go in.

I put it on the basis that it isn't the administration, but it's the P.O.W.

As a matter of fact, the P.O.W.

wives want to be people there.

And they don't want anybody there.

They don't want us to want to be there.

And they're absolutely right.

And I don't like that idea at all.

You know, just exploit these people.

They'll have their time.

Their day will come.

Only after they're all gone.

Constantly tries to come back.

Be in pretty bad shape.

I think.

When's the first one this time?

Should be during the next week now.

That's funny.

I'm trying to just go from there.

Vice President will be at Clark Air Force Base when they come in, won't he?

We've told him not to.

It's just, we want to make sure that he's... No, no, no, he's being told not to.

How do you mean he won't be there?

He ain't not when they come in.

Or else he goes there at the Philippine time.

And I've issued instructions.

I'm not going to talk to her about that.

You want to go on your own?

He will land at the regular airport.

He won't be anywhere near Clark Field.

When he's there, he'll land at the Manila airport.

That's what he should do.

So he'd have to take a special trip to Clark Field, and he turned that off.

He's actually proposed it, but we sent out instructions that we don't want him appearing to be...

I'm not exploiting it either.

Nobody should exploit it.

Just let it come to action.

Because I don't see any P.O.W.s when I'm in that moment.

No, they asked whether or not you were going to be there in the intent.

I said, no, it's a pure coincidence.

You're not going there to meet the P.O.W.s.

We'll get enough on the P.O.W.

thing.

Let me ask one question before we run.

What is the situation, Henry, on the...

A large list of... Well, we have...

They've given us, as you know, a list of ten.

We have sent them a very sharp complaint saying that this cannot be right.

They have replied saying we have to remember that the terrain of Laos is different than in Vietnam, that a lot of these missing jumped over jungle where there's no population.

But also the Laotian population doesn't have the electronic equipment they have to find people who have radio signals on them, which is probably true.

So we cannot expect the same proportion of prisoners among us.

We don't know.

I'm just wondering whether we're getting into an impossible position with the MIA or something, or they feel like we're fighting their battle.

What do you think?

I think they feel we're fighting their battle.

I think Mike Henry's statement was helpful, but I read something in this.

I mean, it's funny why somebody else on the MIA was disturbed.

Oh, of course, it's the best thing for them is to know that they're not fighting their battle.

But I didn't know what the reason he said replied to us.

what it would they have for keeping prisoners back.

And there is a point in that the only prisoners that do them any good are those we know about.

For them to lie about people they have prisoners, in other words, to say that they don't have any and keep them, in fact, they're better off killing them.

They can't blackmail us with prisoners they don't acknowledge.

On the other hand, if they acknowledge them, we are likely to appropriate their treatment

So I don't really see any motive they would have to lie.

Yeah.

So we just have sand dunes of their origin.

Well, it could be that what could have happened, Mr. President, is that the Halilau, who probably just as bloody mad as the North Vietnamese, that they kept a few back to bargain with us separately from the North Vietnamese.

So there is this hope that not that the North Vietnamese are lying, but that the Halilau who are lying are...

I think in another 10 days we'll have it.

And in Cambodia, there's a ceasefire.

Well, the 10 days is a little longer than the 15 days that we've lost.

15 days would be about 10 days from now, 9 days from now.

about this well this is the 23rd that we we announced oh no no no the settlement was not for the 27th i might get your point you're right it would be 15 days in the saturday rather than the two days from the 28th actually from the day right now i know that the day that uh we are uh slamming uh

And so forth.

Now that is not in Cambodia, but it's related to the Cambodian story, which is wrong.

We didn't have an attic back factory.

But all we were doing was hitting the southern ocean area.

I hope you didn't know those.

Well, I hope so.

I'm all for it.

It's fine.

We didn't have an attic back factory.

Well, Stan, I haven't had a question on that.

Not until it's a secret.

Fulbright, not Fulbright, but Mansfield is crying all over the place, according to him, is that right?

Only the first days, but...

He is, he said the word.

What did you say, John?

I said, I've been saying so that you'll know how to answer it right.

We want to take that option, we are going to take it.

Right on the day of the ceasefire, and a lot of us are going to bump the hell out of it, right?

I said, that would help us in the rapacy.

I said to him, leave it up to it when he sees fire, that's absurd.

I said, we will stop offensive operation at 48 hours.

Is there any act?

So he said, I understand, but if you could use your influence with the Chinese, it would help.

So Bono declared it.

The Hanoi-backed people followed it.

Chianuk said that he wouldn't obey it.

Then I sent a note to the Chinese.

Then Chianuk made a statement saying he's also ending offensive operations.

So right now it's very quiet.

It was yesterday.

Yes, it is.

In the news this morning, the violence is a positive story.

Yes, it's quiet.

There's a little interdicted route for you.

You can't stop everything, but...

Always around one tree.

That's the only place where... One tree.

But in fairness, I was over at the Pentagon today, and I looked at their chart.

The number of major violations is now down to six, of which...

at least two were started by our side.

The thing in country was that the Marines tried to take the mouth of the Guadalajara River.

In the last day, with another massive force, the North Vietnamese were waiting for them, and they gave them a terrific reliquary.

They lost about 40 tanks.

Marines?

Yeah.

40 tanks?

35.

And

And then the DSE's fired.

And the North Vietnamese just kept on fighting until they pushed them back to where they started.

So they're now back to where they started.

Having lost 35 tanks, it was a bad operation.

So that's fairly quiet now.

There was, last night, there was an artillery shooting near Kwan Tree.

But it's dying down.

Every day there's less.

And the international groups are beginning to get together.

International groups out in the country now.

David amuses me about this.

Every day something like this happens.

It makes the critics on the far right, as well as, of course, the critical ones on the left, look at what's on your business.

At least it's working.

I think it's going to work for several months.

And you would be able to look at it for several months as well.

you get through the tech period and you get to the girls and what the effort takes me.

That's why your trip comes at the right time.

Very important time for this trip.

Very important.

We get to do, uh, then the weather is going to do it for us, of course.

Yeah.

And, uh, and you'll get to do it, right?

Well, Ron, just say to Ron, Ron, maybe he'll express things well on the other side.

But you need to have no concern about Dresden, Hanoi.

That's going to be like Peking.

They can't get anywhere near me.

Unless, unless, unless...

But I know how everyone who's ever been in Hanoi tells me that it's the most restrictive capital.

They can't even find out where the ministers are.

They can't get a car.

They can't move anywhere.

And so they can't call up.

They can't visit me.

Unless Hanoi was there.

Oh, they drove him crazy.

I talked to him.

I spoke to him very openly.

I said, look,

The president takes a very dim view of the Washington Post.

They've been harassing him.

We take a dim view of Murray Marder.

Now, if you're going to get a lot of newspaper articles by Marder on the front page, quoting a lot of your high officials, it's going to make a very bad impression here.

He said, I take serious note of it.

So Marder, they took him.

They showed him a little farm damage, not too much.

They took him to High Farm.

He met the mayor of High Farm.

Then they threw him out.

They met the mayor of Moscow.

He met the mayor of Moscow.

And the head of the information bureau of the foreign ministry.

He didn't meet a single minister, not a single member of the public bureau.

Then he wanted to say, and they threw him out.

Who's over there?

Nobody.

They probably have French, of course.

They have the French.

They have, of course, all these Europeans.

They have Tass.

They may have Reuters there now.

I'm not sure.

But if they are not going to be permitted, I'm sure they will take photographs at the beginning of a meeting.

I've told them I would go to no public with it.

I mean, I didn't want any public demonstrations or anything.

Herb Klein is going to be a bit of a newton, but I'll do it.

But I cannot have him sit in on meetings.

Of course not.

You'll do it.

The kind of thing that he should only sit in on is when you are on the plane sometimes.

You talk to the whole staff, let him be.

Oh, sir.

Only that.

But absolutely no meetings.

Good Christ, then it looks like it's publicity night.

But he can go to banquets and stuff like that.

They're going to have them.

First, the second thing I want to ask you is that, you know, I'm so glad that we got Keith over here.

Oh, that was good.

Because we got to have a friend in Europe, and he's the only solid one we got.

And by going, let's play him.

I mean, you've got a good relationship with him.

I mean, you know, you can talk to him.

And I think that we...

You have a superb relationship with him.

He's now the one playing, and we've got to play with him.

See, I think what he appreciates, Henry, is that we didn't bug him on Northern Ireland.

Oh, and he knows that.

He appreciates the fact that we didn't bug him on Rhodesia.

He appreciates the fact that we didn't bug him on other things.

But you did it in such a delicate way when you said, all right, now we've talked about Northern Ireland.

Yeah, we're gone now.

But now, therefore, when it's not a much bigger thing, he didn't give us help.

And as a matter

I want to say to you is that I know we've got some studies going on to remove the role of NATO and so forth and so on.

What I was trying to do in talking to you was to push him to the bridge.

But they're doing it now.

And I actually think that our guys, I have a feeling about this meeting with the British, let me disagree.

They are no longer a world power.

But the British are right.

And they think strategically.

I think the right British guy is better than the right guy in the State Department.

No question.

Now, what I want to do, what I'd like you to do, take a vote like Thompson.

We haven't got anybody in our government that is as good as Thompson on that field.

Take a vote like that guy in the search of that Alistair Buck.

I don't find many people around here in the State Department that make this, you know, in the broad...

That's what I think.

I would like for you to take the best British brains and the best American brains and put them together in a combine.

Now, the only question I ask is whether we are missing out on the French brain.

The French civil service, according to what I hear, and I think certainly on the economic side, is as good as any in the world.

On the foreign policy side, are we missing some people?

Now, you know, for example, we've got two or three French newsmen.

You were able to follow the British, right?

But the French are different.

in terms of intellect and maybe even education, maybe even superior to the British, but they don't have the, they're too doctrinaire.

And they don't have the tradition of thinking in global terms.

The French have always thought largely in European terms.

But I think it would be too dangerous to do it before March.

What about it?

After the election, we should try.

Oh, of course, of course.

Now, I was thinking after the election, now the Germans.

Let me ask you about that.

Do you have anybody among the Germans that...

They say the defense minister.

The old defense minister, Helmut Schmidt.

No.

They made him finance minister.

They had a crisis with their finance minister leaving.

Then in order to...

It was a complicated maneuver.

In order to appoint a new minister, they would have had to convene parliament.

They were afraid that if they convened parliament, they might get a vote of no confidence.

So they shifted.

They played around with the ministers that were already in office, and then they didn't have to be confirmed by parliament.

They shifted Schmidt from defense to finance, which he wanted because Schmidt wants to become chancellor.

It's awfully tough to go from defense to become chancellor.

What is the situation on Braun's shoulder?

Unfortunately, it's not malignant.

That's a terrible thing to say.

What I mean is, unfortunately, he's a very good help.

Unfortunately, it's likely to hang on anybody.

He is a dope.

Well, I agree.

I agree.

God, you know, isn't it a shame, though, that I was thinking of the German mines from, well, basically in the late 19th century.

And, frankly, there were some pretty good, well, I guess the Germans meant their problem with the Germans in terms of producing global thinkers.

There's no attempt.

That was a curious idea.

I had a very interesting talk with

We were talking about the world.

I said, I said, I said, Tommy, what man in Europe have you got?

I said, we were talking about a little work, you know, afterwards.

He said, what is it that you've got?

Do you need to talk?

Do you like you can't talk?

And you know, his, the other one understood.

He said, well, he said, I, I'm afraid I,

I find it very difficult to deal with that at the moment.

He said, Papa do, and he agreed.

Papa do, this is my point, I said, Papa do has the brains and so forth to do it, but his interests are basically inward and parochial and not outward and parochial.

Very good.

I'm thrilled he said it.

But he picked the one.

I should not look at the small matters he'd be on.

Just, you know.

There's one fellow that's quite good.

Christy.

You're exactly right.

He said, now that man will come to your roster, you've got one right guy.

Christy.

He was impressed when you said it.

Remember?

It's all about Christy.

You see, I look back and I think,

how we get the best brands of the world to work on some of these countries.

At me, we just gotta do our social matters.

But I remember after World War I, it was great.

At me, it got, well, after World War I, you had spots of people like that on the scene.

After World War II, you could pick five or six countries in Europe who were talking to the, the Dutchman was very good.

You remember his name, after World War II,

to the world court and all that sort of thing.

But actually, there was a good name.

I remember at the present time, whether it's a diplomatic or a... You see, at that time, the Europeans take Holland.

It had an empire many times larger than itself, so it had to take its picture.

The Europeans have become provincial.

And one thing you're doing by letting the British in on these things is you're really doing them a favor by enabling them to

We had all those briefing papers on the economics and the rest.

And I did spend an hour and a half with Schultz, which we ran into.

But the interesting thing was to me that he, instead of getting down, he got a shirt on the side.

But he did notice he wanted, he himself really wanted to talk about the big picture.

In other words, he has changed enormously since 1970.

Remember our first meeting?

He was talking in more of a new term.

He just thinks he will believe in the rest.

And that's the reason why I wanted to talk to him yesterday, to give him sort of, so we could start...

But I thought... And then to come in on this, and then...

But I thought...

He didn't say much, but he got the point.

Well, I thought, well, partly because even he cannot think in these big terms anymore.

If you haven't got the power, then you haven't really got the incentive to think in those terms.

And the...

But I saw that you were talking that there's really no leader in the non-communist world today who could make such a survey without notice.

We didn't hear you talking about it.

Well, we always talk about it.

I'm actually wondering, I'm trying to whisper a chance.

Oh, he's very impressed by it.

He's just a great guy, too.

It's a shame he's leaving, because I think he was just aged.

Sixty, three-thirty at a time, and just a compulsory president.

We do a lot of this thing.

What I have in mind is that the British can block for us.

Now they won't want to waste your time.

Now that they're in, they make the commitment.

And I think because they're in, they can also, the NATO can force the Europeans to think a little more, you know, as to what they're obligated to do.

They can help us.

They can help reassure NATO.

He, Matt, he and Trent both have asked a very perceptive question.

But what we don't hear any of this, like what we hear in the N.C. meetings, you know, they sit there and you ask, and the chiefs give their views, and Laird gives his, and Richardson will be much better on this.

Much better.

I spent two hours with him this morning.

I spent two hours with him, and I told him,

Look, Elliot, I give you two weeks.

I won't send out a directive for two weeks to you.

Give some directive to the Chiefs along the lines of what the President has said to you.

Establish yourself as the President's man in the Pentagon.

Because I think it's better anyway if he takes on the Chiefs.

Yeah.

But coming into this, coming around to this, my view is that when you get back to China,

I went wrong to be here today because I'm under such a little hurt that you didn't call me.

First, I have to call Barbara Walters.

I have her before they're trying to house me.

And I said, I thought you'd be interested to know that we're making this China Council, and now you're going to get really a more, a better program than the other.

And I said, I said, she said, well, we'd certainly like to have it on a Sunday.

I said, well, now you've talked to Ron about it.

I'm going to let Ron try to broker the best of it up.

So what she's going to do is probably go Sunday night on the 25th.

and then take the rest of it over to Monday morning.

They'll take it all, which will give us two shots at it.

That's very good.

Tamara Walters is, you know, she'll get an entirely different kind of questions, but it'll be more of the human increase kind of thing.

That's so general.

She's not unhappy at all.

Marvin County called and said that this day had the biggest reactions.

Good.

That they've ever had to any program.

They've already had 1,500 requests for tapes.

Good.

Who taped the tape that was requested?

I don't know.

But Ian talked to me and just left a message.

I was at Camp Davis.

I just said it was the biggest impact.

Well, you see, with bar owners, they were on a Sunday night in it.

And I will talk to Ron again.

I'd prefer to do it a week later, if it doesn't make any difference to you, and bounce forward.

Well, there's a reason I think you should do it then.

I think you should do it sooner than that, so that we get on top of the Congress.

You see, we're going to have to bring congressional leaders to the cabinet after you return.

And rather than have them go out and say, we want to do this and that, this is what we want to do.

Right on top of this.

You see people on the 27th.

Okay.

What's your reason for going a week later?

Well, because if the Egyptians come, I'll be meeting with them on the 23rd and 24th, and I don't want to have to worry about a television program on top of preparing for the Egyptians.

But we can do it.

That's important, too.

The only thing I would suggest is that you could do the television.

This is not going to be any strain on you.

But I mean, it is going to be the strain of the column show.

I mean, it's going to be more of a different kind of show.

She has a different kind of, you know, she is a sophisticated woman.

case for, you know, sort of an investment in peace and all that sort of thing.

And of course the children, they don't do it.

Well, let it work out in time.

But the reason I'd rather have it strike earlier is that I don't want the negative reaction to set in and, you know, and have to hit it.

I'd rather hit it a little sooner.

is to force her into crime on a Tuesday.

That would be a good thing.

Let me talk to Ron.

I want a big audience, that's the main thing.

And I might sub the leaders.

I might have you wait a little while before running back too.

But I'll come see you.

Talking to these leaders is a loser.

The minute you get in there.

Well, I'll come out of San Clemente on the 19th if you're so bad.

Yeah.

See, when you come back, the leaders of the Congress, you probably saw her.

One jackass suggested that you should take senators with you to this meeting.

God, what the hell are they talking about?

I don't think it'd be good for me to go to San Clemente if you were not there.

If you're still there on the 19th, I'll go there, and then if you...

Otherwise you come back here.

Otherwise I'll come back here.

Well, you'll have a...

I think the other thing, uh, the other thing I would suggest is that, uh, we really ought to, uh, we've got to, with the Egyptians, if we're going to do anything on the Mideast, this is our last chance.

We'll never do it in the four years if we don't do it now.

i think it's very important for you to get into that and to uh and frankly get a plan some sort of our plan uh the uh the uh of course you have no idea they come in with their union the transnational system

Unless we determine it, then we've got to say, focus is the same.

Except they're much tougher than two and much less dependent on us and much more capable of it.

That's right, and much better.

I mean, on the other hand, we're not going to try to force them into something that is worse than what they had been, but we had to force them to.

You know what I mean?

We're talking about... And they have an election this year, so they may not be able to settle before October.

That really has to be the

Of course, the Egyptian theory is that if they make an interim settlement, that will become permanent.

That's why the Egyptians don't want an interim settlement.

Well, the man who would come to see me, if he comes, would be the right man.

My opposite number, and he played about the same role there as I do here.

Which is, therefore, in ministry also doesn't have a very decisive influence.

But he isn't, you mention.

Oh, yes.

No, but he's now in Moscow.

He may not be.

You may not come here.

Because?

Because he insists that I meet in London, but London would turn into a circus.

It would turn into a meeting like the Italy.co meeting.

I can now no longer go to Europe or anywhere else.

You know, I'd be better off then going to Cairo for the second meeting.

That's true.

No, I'm not sure.

You certainly don't have to figure out a problem.

We could get some money.

You see, some of the arguments that we have to quiet things down because of the oil, for one thing, they aren't quiet enough, and they've been for a long time.

The Arabs are frustrated, but that doesn't mean they're not quiet.

More importantly, the problem is, even after we get a settlement, that won't end it, because then the more intransigent Arabs are going to go to the next step.

But still, a settlement would be useful.

And I think if we can get the Egyptians to make an interim settlement, we can find some way of linking it towards a global one.

We can get the issue of sovereignty separated from the issue of possession of territory

An idea I developed yesterday.

Yeah.

Well, let's get real then.

When are you meeting up with the Russians?

Around the 1st of March.

And then you're going to have to...

But we don't have to have a position on the Middle East, although it would help.

We do have to have a position on that nuclear treaty.

We may have to go a little further than the British want us to go.

but we may be able to use this.

You've got to realize that in this instance, you know, we reassure the British and the Europeans all the time that the game is between the Russians and ourselves.

And we may use this Poseidon deal to keep the British quiet and to keep the Russians quiet vis-à-vis us if we do do the Poseidon deal.

Keep the Russians quiet?

Well, supposing we tell the Russians... Supposing we tell the Russians, look, we'll go halfway towards you on this nuclear treaty, but in order to keep our allies quiet, we have to do... Then they have to choose.

Because I think it is in our interest to keep the British in the nuclear business.

The pressure on us will become too great if we are the only nuclear power.

Gotcha.

Well, I'm rather surprised that he's the droid of Satan.

Aren't you?

He realizes that we are not a country if we're not in it.

He says he's got no job to do with it.

He says he's got the domestic sector for a large job to do with it.

Still got a clue?

Yeah, but not much.

Not much.

Besides, we really did not psychologically get them.

Yeah.

Let's give them another ten years' leave on that.

Because it's now clear that if we had given them the sky balls, their airbags would still be useful.

That was a terrible mistake.

Yes.

Why did you do that for?

Because we wanted to get the British out of the nuclear prison.

Then he didn't have the guts to go through with it.

Well, it was the McNamara decision.

It was not the McNamara period.

Yeah.

And then Kennedy, as always, I think, taking the first step.

Then when he met Macmillan, he caved and gave him polaris.

And they figured they'd screw them on the polaris later.

But Skye would have really, what it would have done, would have really

It would have kept it being a very good British Air Force, right?

It would have kept it being 150 British Airplanes.

Which, with standoff weapons from the first skyhook only had 300 mile range, but if you had extended that range, they could still be a major factor.

It was a disaster.

God, what we've done to the British is unquestionable.

What we did to the 56th, terrible.

What we've done to them since then, unbelievable what we've done.

And when you think about what the British have done to the world, you know, God damn it, without the British, Hitler would have Europe today.

Hitler would have, oh, and his son would still be living.

Right?

No question.

Without the British,

They were the only ones that kept the line.

We say it over and over again, but we talk about our sacrifices.

We get a hell of a lot, but the British stood their own.

They held the tide back and also the psychological, too.

As Trevor wrote the things, we were a little too effective in World War II.

Why?

We had made a partial settlement.

With the Germans?

With the Germans.

He agrees that Hitler had to be defeated, but he

I agree.

Oh, I always felt that.

But he doesn't think, he said the tragedy was, we were speculating what would have happened.

The tragedy.

If one of these plots in Hitler had succeeded.

Yeah.

And he felt that we should have made peace quickly.

Absolutely.

We shouldn't have.

Absolutely.

The end conditions for everything were wrong.

I mean, I know we all felt that.

Totally wrong.

And what would have happened?

What would have happened without a question is that the Germans that would have been there as a shield against the damn Russians

And also the tragedy is, the tragedy is that we threw it all away at a time that we were looking down at the Russian troops.

That's what turns me on, Henry, for God's sakes.

The United States had ground forces.

We had a monopoly on the bomb.

The Greats were still there.

We really didn't have their troops.

And the fact that Roosevelt was sick, probably everything else we just gave him anything.

But considering what you had, Charlie,

Uh, if you wonder now, the point that I've been making, I really feel, I don't know, but I don't know that we can make it.

We do not have parity.

The only reason I don't think we can, we may be, there's a considerable doubt that we can make it, is because of the will of Europe, the will of America.

And also, I don't know, the other side of the coin is,

that the Russians have some problems too.

And that's why the theory that you expressed yesterday, the assumption that they are, that some evil genius is directing all this, that may be true, but it could also be true that there is not an evil genius.

That it isn't a planned thing, that it's just a bureaucracy moving along.

That could be.

We have one practical man on this whole delegation.

Yeah.

Who wants to come?

Well, Richardson would like to keep Mitter on it as a defense man, and Mitter really has been a useful man.

Okay.

I have a objection.

What about the military man?

Can we get Jackson's man in there?

Yeah, we've got to get that son of Alex in there.

Well, Jackson had a man.

He wanted him.

I would like for you to just surround me.

I know who you are.

I want you to listen to us make a point.

You call Sue and say that you and I have chatted and we want to go and then it'll make him feel happy to plan.

Right.

I'll do that.

You have confidence in Mitchell?

For this job, yeah.

I know your reservations about Mitchell, but he fought for us on the ABN.

On the sole delegation, he was a good counterweight at Smith.

I think he has his problems.

I wouldn't put him in.

in a tough policymaking position.

And I think Johnson will be a hell of a lot better president.

Oh, no comparison.

Because you won't have Johnson running around on your back, you know.

No, he'll carry out orders.

We've got to get ahead for the band actor, or it's going to disintegrate.

Not only disintegrate, he'll keep the old gang, and then we can't fire them until we get a director.

Well, that's fine.

But what we could do, Mr. President... You got a man?

Well, I have... No.

Well, Nipsey is another possibility, but one way would be to put Farley, the number two man to Smith.

He's a mouse.

He'll do exactly what we tell him.

And he could be sort of a front man.

You see why?

Scoop is our friend.

I know Scoop goes further than the traffic will bear.

But if Scoop will buy, Farley is going to get the job.

Because you know, I want to put a weak man in the damn job.

Because I want the damn organization.

But he's weak, and we've got John Smith to negotiate it.

All right, Farley is a weak guy.

He's a decent guy.

Yeah, I got that impression that he is decent.

But, uh, Barley, did you know that the budget for ACTA, before we made these changes, was bigger than the budget for the whole White House staff?

Yes, sir.

$9 million for their personnel.

White House staff budget is $8 million.

We cut ours back to $5 million.

But you see, the point is, they've got all those people.

I mean, you hired a lot of peacemakers in the place.

What the hell do you think they're going to do with a cut job?

Scooby's right about this.

Oh, no, no.

We've got to get these guys thrown out of it.

We've got to get Spurgeon Keeney moved out.

The list of people he gave us is right.

That has to be moved.

Well, Farley will do what you say on that.

All right.

Will it be a lot for him to get the job?

Well, Farley is a professional...

He is not necessarily on your wavelength.

But it doesn't make any difference.

You've got to put somebody in there that isn't considered to be anti-disarmament.

That has the advantage of power.

He's too weak to fight you.

He's got no constituency on his own.

And he's honored when he'll take orders.

He will not recast the agency the way we might want it.

But if we tell him to get rid of Spurs, he may not do that.

You know, the way I approach it is to say it isn't a question of throwing people out.

And we've got a perfect example.

But all through the government, as you know, the president feels that we need people with new viewpoints.

And after people have been in the agency so many years, they should be moved to other assignments.

Now, here's a list of people that we think have been in this too long.

Move them out and put a new people in.

I think we ought to get rid of McCloy instead of Bennett Larson, Commander.

He's too old, and he's never supported us when we needed him.

Except on NATO.

He hasn't.

He didn't come in even on a...

He didn't sign on Vietnam, everything else.

He writes, he's gone.

Yeah, but he didn't... And even on Vietnam, he really was wailing.

He asked you to explain it to the public.

Well, that was just the cop-out of the... We handled that correctly.

But, you know, that's explaining to the public, you know, even a lot of our people.

Did you see it?

What?

Did you see it?

What?

Your program.

I read it.

Oh, you read it?

Yeah.

Oh, yes.

And the way you explained that was, of course, that's the only explanation we've got.

And I told the, for the leaders Tuesday, I'm having an excerpt of that, the part of the, you see, the reason that that's, it was carried, it was carried before the, during the, it's,

But I've got to tell you what I would do with David McCoy.

McCoy and a lot of even our friend and his people all said, why didn't we explain deep down?

What it was is they were just listening to the hammering we were getting from Washington and the international media.

And basically it was a come out, as you say.

If you had explained they wanted to get you out there so that they could chop you up,

Also, if we had explained, it would have made it impossible for the North Vietnamese to come back without losing face.

And we have to make it appear that they came back on their own volition and we're not going to hurt you.

That was the point.

With that, I think I've got to close.

But you're right about who will be with the job.

A man would be excellent with his fellow agnos.

from Livermore, whom we offered the head of ACTA to.

I talked to him.

He's really a superior man.

The only reason he didn't take ACTA, and he's totally on your way to that, and the only reason he wouldn't take ACTA is because he's doing some things in Livermore.

Not in Livermore, in Los Alamos.

But this doesn't require full-time.

Why don't we order to him?

He'd be...

He'd be on our way, wouldn't he?

Totally.

And it means that for one sentence, the committee would have to fire some people off,

No, but they got Scranton and all these crybabies.

Absolutely.

No, they got Phil Foster on it.

Certainly.

I think we ought to reconstitute the whole meeting.

We've got this bearded guy, Ruina, from MIT.

Yes, he was terrible in the meeting.

Remember when we had this all agreed and so forth?

Well, now can't you have a total man on your own testing?

Wouldn't that be great?

But I couldn't realize it wasn't in the name of God.

Who the hell signed the lawnmower?

Remember that time?

Oh, very much.

Very much.

But the problem was, no matter the committee spoke up against it,

Notice that he can't kick out so easily, but he's much harder.

No guts.

He's running around the line for a crowd too much.

Well, I think you could get a good strong man.

That's not a bad idea.

I have an idea on that thing.

Why should it be all men?

No.

I'm not putting the shield in, Gunslinger.

I don't know whether she's interested in it.

Damn right she'd be.

Anybody's interested in it.

An arched crow, for instance.

She'd be a hawk.

That's the main thing.

You gotta get some.

And nobody could object, which is the other thing.

She's a very strong person.

Claire Luth wants to go and then be a... That's fine.

We already offered.

That's fine.

I told you to go forward with that.

That's one of the people that I'll meet with.

We've got a teller in there, haven't we now?

Yep.

Claire Luth's fine.

Well, let's put the back of the mind.

I'm also going to offer Mrs. Johnson the U.N. thing and all that.

Oh, yes.

She would probably .

But I'm going to offer that to her.

And Scali would be some experience.

I was so amused when I was talking to Eve at the dinner.

What else can I say?

I said, are you, for a few times, I said, by any chance, will you be coming over to speak to the U.S. sometime?

He said, he said, frankly, I have horror in the place so much that I just can't bring myself to come.

God damn it, the British are sick of the U.S. What's turned them off on us so much?

Well, on all these racial problems, all the African problems, and then in two ways, it's always that double standard.

You just didn't remember...

I'm not going to do it.

Even with Scully there and all the rest, I mean, I would do it with Bush, I don't care who's there.

The U.N. now, that's the job of the Secretary of State.

And actually, the U.N. did twice, and they changed it.

It's not both kinds.

Basically, not only by the membership of the U.N., but also, let's face it,

By the damn secretary.

Oh, Stan.

Well, it was... Well, and then you said he couldn't greet you at the door because it was at the dinner of the Pakistan ambassador.

It's an outrage.

And then this idea that you don't know whether to sit on the floor listening to Haile Selassie speak.

I mean...

Nobody got up when we came in.

I think that the U.N. is just a cool detachment as far as you're aware.

I gave a 25th anniversary dinner to the bastards.

And we've done everything.

I've gone the extra mile.

I want you to have, incidentally, a talk with Skelly soon.

Or he gets up there and they tell him, now look, John, there's one thing I understood, that you can in no circumstances count on your job at the U.S., your work, and your life, and so forth and so on.

The president is not going to be available to look at the U.S. in this term.

I don't want him to, you know, I mean, of all time, all the actors to come up or something, or now this is a special deal, and I'm not coming.

Henry, I think the U.N., I think the American public now is getting really distraught by it.

And I think what was the straw that broke the camel's back was the hijacking.

The failure to go on, you know, they didn't support us in hijacking.

The right of liberation, I think also their failure to support us to do that.

Well, also the way they trumped up and down when Nationalist China was elected.

That was horrible.

That was ribaldi.

Remember how they danced?

Ribaldi.

The Bunch of Peaks.

Have a good night, New York.

Ready to go.

I'll go about 3.30, 4 or 5.

Where?

You're going to the theater you said?

Yeah, I'm going to the theater.

That's good.

Okay, thank you.