On February 3, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, Claudia A. Johnson, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:32 pm to 1:57 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 840-019 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Senator, if you wanted this for Mr. Nixon, it's now been put right up to date.
Some of the sample of the comments, at least.
You must have been from New York.
I could see he was kind of muted when he came in.
How did you go about it?
I just walked in.
He was getting ready to come in to see you.
And it turned out he wrote this and said, Henry,
He definitely didn't get the impression that I had talked to you about it.
I don't think he knew I was in there.
He had asked me.
I just said, Henry, I think you ought to know that Joe Kraft came by yesterday to see me.
And I said, I hadn't seen him, but he knew about that piece that I wrote.
I kind of got challenged, and I had to see him.
And he said, he never let me finish.
He said, he's a snake.
He's no good.
He knew, he knew when Krabs had told me, even before I told Henry, because he said, you can't crush me.
I said, oh God, he's a vicious son of a bitch.
I said, you know what he tried to say?
He tried to tell me that he had done the story from you.
And he had that scowl on his face, because he was ripping Krabs apart, because he's a peddler of Krabs.
Did you also get the fact that he said Reston?
Yeah.
I said that Kraft said that he and Reston, Kraft told me that Reston and himself had never been so upset to have their integrity challenged.
I challenged their integrity.
I said, Henry, can you read my thing?
Hello?
Hello?
I just called to see how you're feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Sure.
Well, I think you should know that we, of course, actually had a rather heavy male reaction here.
And universally, everybody commented upon a really wonderfully dignified and gracious way that you handled the whole affair.
They turned it like she's a real lady.
And that's why you'd be very proud.
I mean, I think you would, and I think Lyndon would, too.
So, all right.
All right.
That's right, and that's what B told me.
He told me about, he said, everybody else you know is about ready to crack him, and you had to brace him up.
Which, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, well, well, yes.
Let me also tell you that I don't need any answer on what I'm going to talk about right now, but it's something for the future you might want to think about.
You naturally are very busy now and will be with the estate and all that sort of thing.
It would be a very great service to the country if you would consider on a part-time basis an assignment.
The one I'm really thinking about is the delegation to the United Nations, which is about a two-month assignment.
And I think it would have a marvelous effect if you could do it.
Now, we don't have to decide it.
I don't know until about May or June.
But I just wanted you to put in the back of your mind and if you'd like to consider something like that, we'd be happy to do it.
Sure.
We don't want you to say a word about it.
I just thought that as you go along, other things will come up, and that you can have this sort of a thing that you can choose.
Because my view is this, and I know that
Right at this time, you feel that, well, I just don't want to do anything.
I'm going to get all this burden off and I'm going to rest.
But knowing you, you'll be that way for about one month and two months.
And then you really want to do something.
You must do something.
You know what I mean?
I'm sort of a judge of this as having seen it.
And, you know, you're...
figures you've always been active and so forth so i just want you to know that that could be a very very interesting and important so anybody who did my best to uh to everybody down there and uh and the whole country's going for you and uh well well i was uh
Well, anyway, so then he got walking around his office very fast.
You always know, I mean, Henry is a terrible cook.
And he said, well, you know, he said, you know, that son of a bitch called me.
I said, oh, where did he come from?
He said, yes, yes.
He said, of course, we know a lot about him.
He had been in front of the city in the
Well, we had the telephone records when he placed the call.
He doesn't know I know that.
He said, Kraft called me, and he said that he told me that everybody in town was talking about this.
And I said, well, that's what he printed, Henry.
And I said, didn't you try to talk him out of it?
And he said, of course I tried to talk him out of it.
I couldn't talk him out of it.
He said that that's why he wrote that awful comment.
He said, he's no good.
He's no good.
And I said, well, there's nothing I worry about.
I stuck it to him pretty hard.
And I just didn't want him to go off and blow off somewhere that he had gotten this from you and Rustin had gotten it from you.
And put you in an embarrassing position.
That's the only reason I'm warning you of this.
And he was just fulminating.
And then you could see the turmoil.
He didn't get himself caught in his own lies, because he forgets what the hell he's told his own.
At least he knows that Kraft is on the verge of blowing the whistle on him.
Do you think Kraft is?
No.
I don't think he ever would.
He didn't destroy the source.
No, except that he destroyed it insofar as I'm concerned.
He told me very quietly that his source was a primary source.
I dragged it out and I said, what the hell did he mean?
He said, well, I talked to Henry and he said, you know, Kraft guessed it.
He said Henry wasn't averse to letting that impression come out.
He said he wasn't.
He said, you know, Henry's funny that way.
He'll play off both sides.
So Kraft told me, what?
And he didn't equivocate.
Of course, Sonnenfeld, who works for Henry, is probably the only other guy beside Tague who really sees completely through Henry, totally.
And Sonnenfeld has been to me this week and said, well, what's he saying?
I'm interested.
Oh, Sonnenfeld thinks that Henry is duplicit and devious and knows that he was promoting those stories.
The point of hell is he sees right through Henry.
The reason Henry doesn't give him much shit
The hell came to me last week.
And then after I wrote the op-ed piece, the hell came and he said, do you realize what you've done?
And I said, what do you mean?
He said, Christ, he said Kraft and Reston are both talking about the fact that they got their stuff directly from Chisholm.
He said, you've walked right into the middle of it.
That was when I told you that I was smoking him out.
I hadn't realized it.
But Sonico came to you this week and said, what does he mean by this?
Well, he thinks that Henry plays the game of
being a good guy with the Crafts and the Restons, and then internally, of course he isn't, I mean, he represents his position differently outside than inside.
Yes, and Sonnenfeld thinks he does it.
Oh yeah, and Hell says he's ready to do it.
And Hell said, I've been with him, and he said, I don't want to be disloyal to Henry.
But Hell said, my first loyalty is to the President.
He said, Henry is a very dangerous guy, and he does this.
remarks, and he said he's been doing it regularly, and he said this time he got quiet.
And he said it's bothering Henry.
He said, I can't.
And he said, Henry knows I know.
And he said he's very embarrassed with me right now.
Mr. Gregory, Henry's trying to show you.
Make him note to all of them, we better not, we better do a softball catcher with you.
Well, Mr. Henry, just eliminate the quickness.
We don't want him.
Yes, I tried to reach out, but he's out of his office.
I think he's with Scali today.
We're going to be, uh, uh, Paid was not briefed, Scali, today, and, and meet with Kimmich for the article.
It came out very well, Mr. President, and you've got some good people.
No, I think that's right.
I don't know some of them that well.
I don't know Dennis and Bernadette, but the others, I think, are all great.
Like Jim Lynn is tremendous.
Weinberger, if we can get the portfolio.
Who do you say you didn't know?
I don't know Dennis or Bernadette.
Dennis is not, he might be very strong, but he's very decent.
Bernadette is hard on it all the way.
Great.
He looked like he was beating Bernadette.
Yeah, they're trying to use him as the, uh, hostage on budget.
Oh, he'll be- No, he's, uh, you can tell Kat is a little upset about it, but, uh...
No, he'll be fine.
And once he gets in there, he'll... That's good, too, that he's getting a little of this so that he will not be too rigid.
When he gets to the job, he's got to realize that he's...
I don't want him to be soft on spending this, but he's got to find out that he's up against a tough situation, and then he won't just say, well, college, school, whatever.
He'll realize that he can't quite do some things that way.
He'll do it other ways, right?
That's right.
It'll be... That's why a compromise is always good for a man.
Yeah, it'll be good.
In cap states, it'll be good.
The only negative way to destroy it is...
The only negative to Kemp is that it may weaken him in handling the bureaucracy.
I mean, that agency of all agencies, you've just got to crack the goddamn whip on the bureaucracy.
He will.
He's a strong man.
Oh, he is.
Kemp is no Bob Fitch.
Oh, no.
He lacks Fitch's marvelous ability and solid interest.
But on the other hand, Kemp is a curse.
He's got a steel backbone.
Tenacious.
And he believes.
I mean, he really wants to go out and do it.
And Loyal, he walked through the door without opening it if you asked him.
Roy Ash, as they tell me, he just stood up there and took those covers and went out there.
And Muskie was shouting at him.
What the Christ, that was goddamn Muskie.
Well, they frustrated him, Mr. President.
You think so?
Oh, sure.
They can't lay a glove on you.
That's one of the big things that... You know, the piece frustrated the shit out of him.
Of course it did.
It reversed the election and then the piece, which...
Which the thing that really gets in there is that you, you, who have been their chief political antagonist, succeeded where they had failed.
And it's just that simple.
And they can't stand that.
It's really done a hell of a job on their own site, their own outlook.
You know what, Henry?
I wonder if he is probably continuing to be persistent.
That's what I'm a little concerned about.
I'm talking to the VA. That's why I say that.
Sure, the clever way he handled that Calvance on the bombing.
I mean, everybody caught that.
Everybody who knows what's going on.
Sure.
Oh, yeah.
Bill Verrudi caught it.
Did he?
Yeah, he doesn't trust him.
And so, I understand whether you trust him or not.
He's invaluable.
Oh, good God.
He's got to negotiate the meetings now, man.
People don't realize that I control Henry.
I know how to do it.
He thinks he's doing it.
He always will have a way, but... No, Henry is invaluable, and the thing you have to do with Henry is just constantly keep him.
You kind of only keep him honest.
You keep him worried about being honest, and it will help.
He simply has to know he can't have it both ways, which he tries like hell to do.
Well, I'm sorry, you know, it's weekend, plus...
Incidentally, to shortcut that thing, rather than having those names that Henry works up for that foreign policy thing, rather than having it go to, you know, to the Obama, who won't have the time, or to Bush, give it to Chuck Colson.
All right, sir.
And then you can do the political checking.
So you can suggest names on the political side.
You know what's up?
Yes, sir.
Okay.
This is some committee that was hand-managed.
Oh, the organization together?
No, no, no.
Organization of National Security Services.
It's for a foreign policy event or something like that.
And I'm one of my four of the best people in the world.
Ed Shatner is one of them, I think.
What's that name?
Suggested.
Yeah, good one.
Yeah, he's good.
Another one I thought we could put on is Rockefeller.
Rockefeller would be great.
See what I'm saying?
Rockefeller is strong and can perhaps lead the whole thing.
Yep.
That's the list I...
They brought me in on that yesterday and said they were thinking of Bob Murphy, and I said I wondered if Bob was- Too old.
Too old, yeah.
No, no, no, no, no.
So there's again, there.
My initial reaction was he's over the hill.
He's over the hill.
I know.
He's just too old to do this.
I want figures that there's a chance to get people that are- Leo Churn, I think.
Leo Churn would be good.
Hard money.
We adjourned.
Marvelous idea.
Marvelous idea.
Now you're talking.
Let's go away from the lead or whatever his name is.
Sure, we can't put him in the speaker panel.
You're making a long, great mindset.
I want you to check the names and so forth.
Henry will come up with the usual ones, the John Floyds and all that.
We're not going to have any deal-winers on there.
No more new people.
Just like we do.
You see, Chuck, what people don't realize is that foreign policy, for the most part, we really change.
We are turning things around in a massive way.
Yes, yes.
To a good degree.
But that's the point.
We change in that world.
Now, the world changes.
Do it with a hell.
It would have been a hell a lot sooner.
Oh, you've changed it dramatically.
I wrote a speech, which I have to clear with Henry.
I've been asked to give a Charles Evans Hughes lecture at Brown.
It's a great procedure.
I'll probably get booed, but I'm talking about...
your courage in changing the world, not just Vietnam.
I haven't put it in terms.
I did it to it very suddenly.
I would say, no, no, I understand here.
It is not true, because I have made this kind of speech, and it's a variable question.
He said, I went to write the outset, and I realized that the majority of people have not supported the foreign policy.
Let's forget who was president for a while, and let's talk about the foreign policy achievements.
And then let's decide, and let us, therefore, judge this foreign policy, not in terms of your partisanship, not in terms of the personality, not in terms of the man, but in terms of what was done.
Now, here's what happened in China.
How did this happen?
A man wrote an article in 1967.
I'm going to have to go back to that.
Here's what happened.
The war came on, 500,000 and so forth, and then over a period of time, it was ended despite all the fears.
And here's the story.
By tenacious hours and hours of negotiation, we had large control.
They said it was a great sight.
A Mideast truce.
That all.
And a balancing of self-interest is really what you've done.
I would go much to praise the president, that sort of thing.
One or two sentences about loneliness and courage and all that.
The main thing is to make the bastards just sit there and cry.
I agree to do this.
How can they be against China?
How can they be against Russia?
How can they be against China?
That's right.
Plus, actually, in a curious way, Vietnam may have been a damn good thing, because a coalescing of the self-interests of Soviet Union China and the United States, now to prevent those kind of wars, and to keep a peace in Southeast Asia.
Do you think Henry is aware of the fact that he's going to know that you're going to do anything?
Oh, yeah.
And that you're his friend?
He's never sure.
Oh, God.
Yes, sir.
I'll never forget.
It was a day of anguish, several days of anguish.
No, I don't think he thinks I'm doing anything.
I think he knows that I see through him, and that he never likes.
I mean, that's why he doesn't like Scali.
That's why he doesn't like Sonnenfeld.
That's why he doesn't trust me.
think he knows i try to help him i do try to help him i've tried to bail him out of several things and i think he believes that that i honestly try to help him but i think he knows if there's ever ever a question of his loyalty to you where i am and that's that's what that's important i catch him every now and then just like this episode i caught him and caught him with wrestling and he knew it uh hell i'm not trying to do a man i try to i'd like to see the guy
recognized that he's made his place in history.
Well, then he could still make a place, but he'd have a lot better shit coming.
But he can't have it both ways.
It's on, but he can't continue to pander to the left.
Well, I was very upset that he did cattle, but, I mean, here's... Well, I was too, but, you know, it's a great place, and I must say, this was Sigler's, uh, they were all excited.
Well, I read... That's the author we had, and I said, well, he'll tell somebody else.
How would Smith have taken it like that?
Couldn't because Howard Smith wasn't reaching.
Howard Smith was not here this week.
The ratings would make no difference.
No matter what network he was on, it would make no difference.
Because he got a 7.6 in New York, a 5.5 in L.A., and both from at 9 o'clock in the evening.
Ironside got a 29.8.
And ABC Kung Fu, whatever the hell that is, got 21.6.
So, 7.6.
But interestingly, Mr. President, it went 7.6, 7.1, and then in the second half hour, 5.0.
In other words, he lost one-third of his audience in the first half hour.
But I don't care what network.
I mean, I know the argument that Ziegler and Kissinger used was that CBS has the best audience level.
Doesn't make any difference.
You put on Kissinger.
Any public, if you put on any public service program, any one of the three networks, in seven, you know, we've done very much better than that, but, you know, like at 12 or 15 or something like that, you've got to react to all three.
That's right.
I, you know, I was, sure you show that to all of them, just, that's it.
Yeah.
But in Los Angeles, my God, it's got a 5.5.
And coming through, it's at 24.
The other thing, it's 24.
All right.
Well, as I said, it does run the game on the good side, but I want to help
A lot of men, I can say on the other side of the thing, because he knows it all now.
You know what I'm saying?
Oh, yeah, she said Al.
Oh, he knows.
No.
What's that one?
What's that one?
You know, Al has got to be here this time.
Most of them.
Actually, I think.
I don't know what else to say, you know.
I don't know what else to say.
I don't know what else to say.
I don't know what else to say.