Nixon & Kissinger on US-Great Britain relations and Middle East diplomacy

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I'm afraid that if we go through one third of that, we're going to have one hell of a long.

Of course, we'll have a lot of time, because tomorrow at Camp Davis, I think, if we get across...

So if you go to Poping, you'll ask him to come back one hour this afternoon.

Oh, I could do that.

It'd be strange.

I have the executive committee here, so I'll do it live.

The one point that I really want to...

I don't think the economic folks understand a lot.

I had a long talk with Connolly, and I don't think he's always right, but I think his senses are pretty good here.

We're going to have to play a pretty selfish role on economic problems here.

We can't make them hostile to the political interests as much as we have in the past.

So, personally, I don't know how it would come up, what he's going to do.

I think, Mr. President, we want to help him as much as we can on our own.

When we talk, for example, about the trade bill, we respond, oh, we're going to need a trade bill.

Never.

I mean, the idea that some move in the other direction, the other direction, and that's the thing that I think about when we talk about it.

I think, Mr. President, the way to put that proposition to him in a way that he can handle it in Europe is to say that the Europeans have to take account of our own need

in order to get the larger partnership in the security and political field.

That he's willing to, that he can handle.

Okay.

But today, I talked to Bertrand yesterday.

He wants to talk to you first about Vietnam and Indochina.

Good.

And?

About South Asia.

And South Asia.

Good.

Then he wants to move to the Middle East.

Good.

We've had a communication from the Russians, which I've given him a copy of, just urging that we start talking again.

I think we do have to do something in the Middle East.

I don't want us to get into that.

Well, yeah, we can.

Let me suggest this, that you and I ought to get some time so we can talk about Vietnam.

There's nothing to do with it because it's there.

And we know, you and I both know it.

Well, I have to tell the press that we don't know what the hell we're going to give them.

I have to do that for the Congress.

But let me tell you, we know what the hell we're going to do.

We're going to do it.

And we'll get it.

Nevertheless, I think the Mideast, though, we ought to talk about before we go.

Right.

Because that thing is going to jam up for sure as hell and get out of control.

Everybody's pushing for it or something.

And I don't want to get people's hands in it.

Because we've got to keep that going.

President, if we do it like we did, we have done it.

I think we can handle it now.

It has to be done.

You know we have got to squeeze the Israelis.

We must tell Pete that.

But we've got to squeeze them a bit.

But we've got to do it only if we're going to get something from the others.

But we'll never get away with that unless we do it like we did Vietnam, get it practically settled, and not let them in until the last second.

Let them in.

The Israelis.

OK.

Yeah, I see your point.

Don't carry it in that.

Don't lay out something and understand by selling it, I'm not preferring it.

I mean, the idea that the Egyptians say, we've got to have a government-centered closure, the thing we get is to get an interim settlement.

And that should be our goal.

And it has some fuzzy language about it.

The interim settlement will make all the difference.

You see, Hussein, I think we're going to get a senior Egyptian who is my counterpart.

I thought we'd take him to Camp David.

I'll take him.

a little suggestion which could help a great deal.

You could say that the president, you talked to me about it, recalling in his business student, wanted him and you to have your meeting at Camp David as his guest.

Put it that way.

And then you could say that you just got a message from the president.

He wants you to know that this is exclusive.

This is not done for many, but he feels our relations are so important, he wants you to meet at Camp David.

Now, that, Mr. President, is going to leak.

There's no way we can keep that secret.

There was a problem with that.

Roger, it will be a problem.

Just go up there.

He wanted you up to see him.

You just felt, you know, you were taking a week, an hour out.

Yes, but that will show some motion.

Should I be there?

Maybe if you're there, I could take them in for 15 minutes.

No, what I meant is, if you need to cover, I need to be up there.

You could be up to see him.

He just came around and came up to see you.

No, I just put it bluntly.

I think we should make it a meeting.

It's been planned for six months, and we wouldn't get away with it anyway, by saying it was just improvising.

So I would think that by the middle of March, we can get that Middle East thing going.

Now, they know something, the critics know something about that Ismail visit, because it was originally planned to take place in London.

And she told them something about it.

Are we still thinking incidentally of pushing Moscow back to October?

It's up to you.

Well, what do they want?

They haven't decided yet what they would like.

And they want you to commit yourself to that nuclear treaty, which is one hell of a decision to make.

But I promised him an answer on that.

I don't know.

No, but breaking out of it is a good thing.

Bravo, Mr. Chinese, and the Europeans.

But there must be some form of words we can use.

But if that happens, strangely enough, we'd be better off doing it in October.

It'd be a spectacular event.

And it would keep the Russians under control until then.

They wouldn't dare to do anything to jeopardize it, unless you feel the need to have it ensued.

No need.

I don't give one goddamn about the needs here.

None.

We're in a different ballgame now.

Frankly, the further off that, and also, I do think this, I do think it should be arranged that I take a trip to Russia again.

Next year?

Next year, before the election.

No question.

I want you to tell the British that that's what we want.

So I don't want everything on the plate this time.

And if we could go in October, or maybe in May or June, at the anniversary of the other one, I'd go to Russia again.

I think that should be definitely clear.

Yeah.

How long have I been thinking in terms of an annual meeting between the Soviet Union and myself?

I also think that when Europe decays, you should explore the possibility.

I don't know whether we should or not, but let me say, of course, if I go, we have to put Japan on.

Japan is always a problem because of the rattles.

But at the present time, I saw something, a Japanese bull indicated that 60% thought that they were going to visit this, and 78% wanted the president to visit Japan.

So we have a lot of friends in

The Japanese aren't all that dumb.

But if you want that option, we have to invite that four of the emperor over here.

What?

Have the emperor first?

Yes.

I don't mind having him.

I mean, if we can put him on the schedule.

That'll be the only other visit this year.

It can't be the Zulus or anything else.

But if you have him here, then after that you have the option of going there.

But I would like to go to China, you see, at a time.

I get it.

This might be a better time of year when it's more pleasant.

We might get a better reception, too, with the Chinese at that point.

Oh, no question.

And I just want to see him again, you know what I mean?

Oh, you'll certainly get a popular reception next time.

And that could be helpful.

Yeah.

See?

I can discuss that with John.

Well, just on my mind, to do it, just because they're great, important things, and I feel that I've got to turn this country around.

I don't want to do it with Tom at their will, that we have to meet with the Russians, but I want to keep talking to them.

But I'd like to.

But also that we expect if the Russians attack them, it's very useful to... Yeah, yeah.

The other question we have to have in mind is what the hell we do on Taiwan.

Now, you know, I think they may call an ironship on that, if they will.

Not easy.

Well, what I thought was... Our chip there is not too much anyway.

All we promised is that we could...

Pull out our sources.

Forces, right?

Vietnam-related forces come out anyway.

The Vietnam-related forces come out immediately, and the other ones would be reduced gradually.

I thought I should preempt this by telling them when I get there that we'll pull out the Vietnam-related forces and give them a schedule.

That way they can't raise the other forces.

Yeah.

But you see, what the Chinese have got to work out is this, and I don't know whether this is in there.

I mean, it wouldn't be possible with the jackasses in North Vietnam.

The Chinese may be subtle enough to understand.

Taiwan is such a bustling, productive, et cetera, community.

They ought to work out some kind of a federation, you know what I mean?

I think they're willing to do this.

What you call, what I call, like, basically, Puerto Rico.

You know what I mean?

And let both flowers bloom.

See what I'm saying?

But I think they will come, but they will grab, but they will accept.

Otherwise, it's war.

You know what I mean?

No, they won't use those.

That you can come.

Well, not with us, right?

How else are they going to get?

Taiwanese, for example.

Well, of course, that sign is pretty loud.

But I don't see the Taiwanese are really so economically angry.

They've never said, all right, we're now going to become part of the PRC.

Never.

It's not going to happen that way.

I think what they will want from us is, well, first, that we pull out some of our forces that will get us through this year.

For the time being, what they really want from us is protection against Russia.

Taiwan is subsidiary.

Eventually, we may have to come to a position similar to Japan's, which is that we maintain consular relations in Taiwan and diplomatic relations in D.K.

in return for a garret promised by them they wouldn't use for it against Taiwan.

But we hope that Chiang Kai-shek will have died in place for it.

Japan has a consular relation with Taiwan, yes.

The invention for us.

The invention.

Well, the thing to do is to have it filled up.

This wouldn't be, I don't see that.

The thing to do is to have it filled up in the American public opinion before they just got to know it.

It can't happen much before 75.

On the way to the better.

I still didn't show a lot to consider, to consider.

What he could do is go to the U.N. Go to the U.N. We talked about that.

And we'd meet up there.

In connection with that, stop in San Clemente.

Oh, I will not four years go to the U.N.

I've never gone there again.

Of course, it's risky if he comes to the UN.

It's going to give us tough territory.

Now, the disadvantage of having Bredner in October is that he'll certainly go to the UN, but... Oh, well, Henry, that's part of it.

But we always worry about them not being involved.

They're worse than...

I think, Mr. Bredner, from our point of view, assuming that we could find a formulation on that nuclear treaty that doesn't drive the Chinese up a wall

the Russians are sufficiently eager to have it so that if we could keep it out there in front of them until October, it would buy us good Russian behavior for the rest of the year.

I was going to ask you, what date are you planning to leave for Hawaii?

The 7th.

And you have to fly straight on to go there?

Well, I was going to go to Bangkok and spend a day there, but

While I was thinking of this, there's a possibility that I can get away the 7th, and I want to pop down one briefly on the way, that maybe you might fly with me to San Clemente and then take off from there on around.

I was going to go through Europe, but that would be further.

Oh, well, that's shorter.

It's shorter to Bangkok, but... Well...

Whatever you want, Mr. President, I can do.

The only thing I wanted was a night, preferably two nights, somewhere before I go to Hanoi.

I was thinking that if you could go to San Clemente and have a night, and then on.

You see, we've got to do the same on Tuesday, take off the next morning, drop in at San Clemente, spend the night, and then on.

That might be good for you.

Let me do that.

Let me look into that.

We could have a chance to have a good talk on the way, and that would be a good impression.

Because, you see, as I see this weekend following, we have a, yeah, we'll be, we'll be, our ground, Keith, and then, uh,

Thursday and Friday, right?

Yeah.

Friday night.

He's not saying it can't be, but it was not apparent.

Because he's leaving at 8.30 the next morning, and he thought he'd rather sleep there.

He's got all his baggage.

He would have been sure.

Saturday, you're going up to New York, aren't you?

But I could stay Friday night and walk David, if you want.

No, you can go to New York.

Then on Saturday, you can...

Sunday, Monday.

Well, we'll, we, you and I, either we've got to have time on Monday, which we'll have to save to talk, or you should plan to go on the plane to San Clemente, where we can have our talk then, and spend the night in San Clemente, and off the next morning.

That's the way to break your trip.

Then from San Clemente, you can fly to Guam, or maybe, you know, halfway around, and on around.

Yeah, I could go in that way.

I could easily come.

You see, you're going to knock off that way if you knock five and a half hours right off of it at the beginning.

It gets into more magical terms.

Let me try that.

Let me see that I can.

Understand, if you can't do it, we'll just stay the time.

No, and I could do it through class.

I mean, any time.

I'll be free at the end of the week, but I want you to go to New York before Saturday and Sunday, because you need a little time off before you go and get the hell out and rest a little bit and have a little fun.

Then on Monday, you and I can have our talk on these things.

And it's necessary.

If we can't make it Monday, if we can't make it Monday, we can do it on Wednesday.

No, if I just do...

Sure.

The ship's still aside while it flies from New Orleans.

I'd like to be in New Orleans.

How about Hong Kong?

Pretty good?

Hong Kong would be good.

You could stay there with my friend, Harold Lee.

That's fantastic.

Yes.

That's sweet.

It's fantastic.

Yes, I could do that.

I could do that.

Now, we can aim for Hong Kong.

There's no reason to do it out of Bangkok.

I would go to that kind of person, I think.

Look, everybody's going to be interested in it.

Well, unless there's some reason to store the ties again, but they've been stored for that.

Well, they're going to fit in some of them, they are.

Okay, I wonder what the hell's going on.

I'm supposed to be sorry again.

What is there?

Are they a little late or something?

Well, sir, I called them for this thing at the embassy, so I asked them to be here at five past, which is three minutes from now, so in a minute we should get there.

Oh.

What time is that now?

Well, I did it about one o'clock, so it's two minutes past now.

You're slower.

I mean, you're fast.

It's very slow.

Oh, okay.

So there's another thing.

If you could tell the...

that you were fed up with the way the Europeans behaved during the bombing.

I told you to first drink.

I said we'll get the word to them.

I appreciate it.

Well, I'll talk to him.

I'll talk to him.

I appreciate it.

But in the meantime, you are on the agenda items and so forth.

If you want to go over that one thing, I'll say.

Well, if you like to discuss, you can do it.

Well, you and Trent discussed it.

I and Trent, he knows that.

He knows that.

And I'll do an hour this afternoon.

Well, say 4 o'clock.

4 o'clock.

We'll have to fortify the second.

Good comment.

Excellent.

If I can show those governors, if you let them go on and off, that gives me an excuse to break up that meeting.

Okay.

Nixon & Kissinger on US-Great Britain relations and Middle East diplomacy

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Also recorded on February 1, 1973

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