On February 2, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Charles W. Colson, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:39 am to 10:33 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 847-005 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Good morning.
Well, there's a report this morning.
I had a chance to check a little on it.
We hope we're keeping them every day.
The editorials are now beginning to come, and the columns are a whole lot better than they were.
Much more effective.
We're really getting a very good play around the country.
We're working hard to get it across.
Did we ever get out to the editorial writers?
Oh, yeah.
Well, the first thing
a hell of a story.
We've seen now some columns as a result of it.
The Baltimore Sun and the Los Angeles Times are calling trying to find out if it was prepared by the White House.
It really stung them.
I think your comments in the press conference, as usual, sustained the attack better than anyone else.
Rather than the first line, the fourth line, this was wriggling, writhing in pain over the way you had
said this and may have caused you to gag to write this.
And he was dwelling on why he had said this.
And it clearly referred to what he did.
And it struck home.
It struck a very tender narrative.
Interesting reaction, because I had someone who was in here yesterday.
He said that he just pleads with us to keep up our attack on the media.
He said that the attitude of the public now, he's got an open-ended question on that.
that he asked after watching your speech, after people watching your speech last week about their reaction to the commentary.
And he said people are very, very resentful of the commentators now.
He said they take the attitude, well, I can understand for myself what the president said.
I don't need anybody telling me.
And he just said, you know, just keep it up.
Because he said you really have the public unwilling to buy what the networks are saying.
He said they're taking it.
what you say, and then they're resenting it when other people try to interpret what you say.
Well, it doesn't sound that way.
They're printing some of those letters, letters to the editors, saying, thinking about the lack of joy and peace, the wreck that they all came under, and just humdrum through it, never knowing what he's saying.
Gee, isn't this great?
It reminds me of what you said, Colin, yesterday.
How would you do that?
Would you have a mind?
Well, Cole would have did that first hand.
No, I wouldn't do that either.
Maybe the best thing is you could have a shirt store.
He's a publisher or editor or something.
Or, you see what I mean, somebody who's a friend with an editor who says, I am a publisher, or I am a, and he can say this is particularly refreshing on the television media, and the rest of us, I read the Royster column, and I had exactly the same impression.
But we have to get it out of check so it doesn't come from the White House's press office, you see?
Oh, no, no.
We wouldn't do that.
We've been using senators, and that's with all that.
Oh, yes, they put a cover where you can.
We've done now...
The ones we mail from here are only things that explain our policy.
The collection is not used monthly.
That is not, in my view, affecting with editors.
I know that's what you use because it's there.
You send that to editors and basically it's like getting a piece of advertising on third class mail.
But you can use there.
You can't use an editor or somebody else.
collecting stuff for actors to use.
Well, we got around.
Oh yeah, we used them all the time, but they began to lose some credibility too.
You know, it's funny, but you know what's getting a hell of a bounce?
Is Edith Evans' new book?
Oh, gotcha.
She wrote a book about how CBS tried to kill her other book.
She's getting a bigger ride on her new book than she did on the original.
Well, she is, isn't she?
Request to go on television interviews.
I should do this.
Yes.
We've got all these... What is the situation on... Let's have an analysis on the Kissinger thing when they come out.
He was good.
He made points that bothered me.
He only made... Not really.
He made two of the points that I had hoped he would make.
No.
Yeah, he did.
Not quite.
Not for what I read.
He very clearly made the point of why the bomb.
Yeah, that's a good point.
No, he didn't step away from the recommendation.
It was very clear he was a partisan.
He didn't say, I recommend it.
Well, that's what he should have said.
Well, but he didn't say that on anything.
Because he made it a problem.
On balance, and he made the bonding point, and he made the why was peace with honor so important.
Because I had learned whether those are worth doing, which was making the point that the president
And so he took office with a nation obsessed with Vietnam and insisted that we had to look at the bigger picture right from the start.
And the peace with honor in Vietnam had not to do only with peace with honor in Vietnam or the Vietnam War, but had to do with America's position in the world and our foreign policy, our whole structure, our relationships with the... Yeah, right.
But otherwise, it's a balanced thing.
Oh, yeah, it was worth it.
Yeah, but what was also clearly proven
and absolutely thoroughly proven, is that he is totally incapable of turning a question, and even to a minute degree,
to get the answer that we want.
The only place he finally did it was when Cal gave him a little lead on saying, well, you and the president developed such and such a policy.
And he said, first let me clearly define my role.
You say, I am the president.
I don't decide anything.
And I try to explain his role.
And he was very uncomfortable doing it.
And then when he got back into the philosophy of the balance of power, he became very elusive again.
But he can't turn.
And we might as well face it.
We knew it was true.
Figures this is worth one more question after we want him to do any more.
Well, it depends on whether he gets the right questions.
I think if he gets the right questions, he'll give the right answers.
But I don't think he has the back that you or her client or some of the rest of us do of taking...
Ignoring the question.
He was saying the very things that some of our other people should have been saying all along.
Yeah, I didn't see it because it was on when I was coming to work this morning.
I was going to have to rerun it.
He was on this one.
And they built it.
It's talking about presidential profits.
Yeah, that's good.
That's why I was getting people to listen.
They reran a piece of it.
They reran my supply in the U.S.
They gave it a pretty good break.
But Lister did not like it when I was doing it.
I think that, Bob, you've got to have the people that lead around here get a little away from the summits.
They've got to be more like Klein and Colson.
Those are the only two that I see that are really getting through from the people who see them looking on.
When we can, of course, we can go on.
Well, we're waiting.
We're hoping Howard Case will be back next week.
He might do a, if we can sell him on this, a color case on.
the more important thing, right?
I think the substance of this is well understood.
I mean, the people know that we've achieved a peace and they're happy with it.
Now let's tell them about the President's courage in doing it.
And that's a different story.
And that Henry really doesn't tell as well as Bob or Haig or some of the results you can.
It's obvious that we are all the time getting through
Do you have a problem, of course, with the far right?
It's hard to go through to there.
You couldn't expect that.
Well, the far west I had to sell it for a very good amount of money.
That's right.
Well, you got a little respect for that head.
I slept up some.
It was brown.
It was brown.
It didn't surprise me at all.
Wow.
I slept bored in Korea.
I slept at the...
is a hard line he's just a hard line but he didn't win the goddamn worker uh i had in mind that uh
One point that I noticed, and I guess what brought it to mind, was Roger last night took me aside before the dinner.
And he's really, if you can imagine, for personal reasons, he didn't say this, but he was saying if I had no objection, he wanted it.
He said, because I didn't know really what he was reading, and he had, I mean, I had the ink of his eyes, and I thought, well, that's just disgusting.
It's silly and all that.
He said, I agree.
The rest of it, he said that it ought to be done, he said, for because of the whole, not because of the sound, in fact, despite it, because of all the other things.
Then I had the chance to ask him to read this book and so forth.
I guess it's something that some of our own people have not noticed.
It is the line which Reichler pointed out at the time he took in his opening editorial and then the line that Reisner took on ABC.
Now the Reisner column really, and this was Henry Reed, really going to answer it.
Perhaps you don't understand what I'm talking about.
Mr. Beazer, those extra columns you see was one where he directly said that he had as much trouble with his own prints as with other prints.
It was down to the fact that he's done this and that and the other thing and he did it all himself and so forth.
Now, do you remember the time during this period when we said to Henry that we ought to get out something and maybe he was the hawk and I was the dove and he cracked the considerable number?
I remember very well.
It took him 20 minutes to unwind, and he answered the rest.
I agree with you, Bob, that on this point, that Bill, Bill Rogers, I mean, of course, naturally, but also he has a certain... Bill doesn't push for something for himself.
I'm not talking about the goddamn press.
I told Bill under no circumstances would I ever accept the damn thing after they'd given it to Brian and so forth.
It's that.
But on the other hand, it is going to be in the public area.
Nothing for anything to do with it, but there is something that was
that I think there's something that, did Henry, for example, ever mention?
Because he realized at times, and the reason why, what a devastating thing that is for him.
I think he does.
What Henry raises, Bob, but he gets it, what Henry raises is a fight.
Now, but when he raises a different fight, he can't show that it were different from the present.
he does he knows that it's wrong but he also fights really he can't he can't quite help but he's really flipping through his father's scrapbook and uh all right wow there there's a big there's no problem and i think you've got it i think if bill would do it that's fine
That you do need to move to get the peace prize for Nixon is that if you don't, they're going to give it to Kissinger.
Yeah, which would be terrible.
And I think you can give it to Nixon and then you can just say you're too busy to get there.
They would never give it.
Because of the fact that they can't do it because it's a Swedish prize.
Well, they may be very hard-pressed not to do it.
They may be hurt the credibility of the Nobel Peace Prize if they don't do it.
And I think that will – I think there's a case to be made for it if they're doing it.
Well, these are a few fellows they're getting.
I suppose you could have some of them on.
No.
You haven't got any.
The Rockers will let him do that.
He's got editors and all of them are on this.
Well, you've been formally nominated, and they've sent in the nominating petitions, and they've had hundreds of co-signers, and a very prestigious list.
The thing you want is to head off.
I mean, Henry should not allow... That's my concern.
He's not allowing all the nominating.
Henry should not say that he will not accept it, because that was what he loved for it.
You understand, sir?
Yes, sir.
Just shut up.
The main point is this, that the, you know, I'm sure he's not got some black work that he had at some point.
That's what I think.
The Jews would love that.
Well, you see the whole thing.
You see the times.
The reason they picked up right off the time.
It's almost the same.
It's really the same thing.
Well, it filled off the same comment.
That filled off the same comment.
I mean, that comment of, I can't understand.
It filled off the fact that I can't judge our own beliefs and all that sort of thing.
which are, which are in these buildings is cute, although probably a mistake.
Now, you know, he says, he volunteered the fact that it was a mistake, that he used it the wrong way.
Well, he didn't.
I mean, he quit.
He's been using all that for years in all kinds of contexts.
It's one of his standard bomb modes, but... Actually, the thing that we should try to do, I think, with...
at this point with Henry is to get him.
I know I handled the job well, but that's the most important thing.
Precisely.
The second thing would be to put him in a very controlled environment where the questions he is asked are not substantive questions, but are questions about the President.
And it's pretty hard to do.
And if he says it that way, then...
See, if a TV piece is done on how the President handled Vietnam, and the personal characteristics and the personal character, and not about the substance, then the focus is different.
Last night was all about the substance and how it came about.
Of course, the process.
That's right.
Well, no, it wasn't even so much the process as it was the implication.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm saying get away from both of it.
It was very dumb.
Frankly, it was hard for me to follow Henry.
He talked so goddamn slowly and deliberately that the...
I mean, large Scali will do something, not perfectly, but it's a... My point is that I think that that is sort of totally out of the...
I think we can't... Scali's converted now.
I don't know why, though.
We can't get into it.
We have to do... We've got Corral now.
We've got a lot of things to think about, I guess.
Scali.
Yeah, we know.
Connelly.
Brennan.
Klein.
Klein.
Buchanan.
Buchanan.
The fellows on the hill have been very, very good.
It takes time, and we know it takes time.
You get discouraged.
Well, it's worth it.
It isn't that bad.
I'm not that discouraged about it, except that I do know this.
Let me say it.
I know the Jewish community, and I know the liberal community, and...
And there was an earlier time when, you know, when they were trying to build up, and this was before Henry began to revolve in America, they were trying to build up rockets and doing everything good.
You remember?
He did this and that and the other thing.
And the Space Department bureaucracy was speeding.
Now it's just turned around.
Where the, where it's, you know,
And they have more now to base it on, because Henry has been so, has a higher profile.
But on the other hand, on all these, but particularly on the, on what the real crunch was in Vietnam, it would have been done as I did that.
That's what it is.
Henry was gonna, he was a very low, and he said it was, you know, something that may have to be done some day.
I don't know.
I think it should.
But, you know, I do think,
I do think it's helpful every now and then to get away from the immediate perspective that we have here, right in Washington, right in the White House.
Having said that yesterday, it's the first time I've had him since the election, the second time.
It's a hell of a good thing because he started doing what people are saying.
They're very, very positive on you.
They are.
He said that
He's getting one, two percent Nixon negative on his issue question.
He said there's a great feeling across the country that you were right.
He said the critics were wrong.
He said you could get a hell of a reaction against the incentive analysis.
He said the – he does say the inflation issue is building up, but he said that the Senate thing had an overriding –
public reaction.
He said, everybody in the Senate is crying, and the blacks, he said, you know, and he listened to him, and he realized that we sit here and worry about the nuances of what this is.
He said, the public are thinking about, thank God,
Nixon's ended this war, and I've been tired of listening to those networks.
The kiss that you're on is a plus because it talks about Nixon ending the war.
Which is all the people think of it.
It's not a specific word to start with.
He sits there and analyzes it.
I've made six statements on that.
Everyone knows the point of that.
Nobody cares.
The other thing, too, is that we have to realize that there are really some of the little things that you do with those types of reports.
Every time.
See, that's why I come back, I come back to it.
I came back to the war and the prayer ground just slapped it in my face.
And I regret to inform you that, uh, in spite of your conviction to the contrary, you got one hell of a play on the prayer ground.
Yeah.
It did.
Right.
I got some.
Good.
Three minutes of the CBS.
Yeah.
I couldn't believe it.
Comes out, he, he, they played me the thing.
He said it was a long,
The other thing that, you know, first time in 10 years first, is that he's done it.
And they ran out.
Now, one clip they ran out of the evening.
The thing that I can't, the thing that we've got to do, Mr. President, and we've got to gird ourselves to this, is I know a lot of people think we've been too hard on the media.
We've got to keep that up.
We've got to keep it up.
Because the public are reacting to it.
And secondly, so are the networks.
They gave you on the TV, on the
Yeah, but not only that.
Not only that, but more important was what they used.
I mean, every one of them used...
If I had been edited in that press conference for what I wanted to get out of it, they took our...
They used it on the news last night.
They led with the clip out of the Henry interview.
And what did they lead with?
They led with the bombing thing.
Yeah, see, they're getting... Let me ask one thing about the bombing, which incidentally...
or something, don't give it as a price.
Make it your canon.
Like I said, I don't want to give it everything.
What I'm talking about is to take that and to take the heart out of it, the gut out of it.
Don't put Q&A like those New Yorkers.
You can do what he reads, Q&A.
But you can say, in his news conferences, the President makes points to follow up on.
And don't send the whole conference out.
You just aren't getting it.
I think what I mean is I know how to edit it, and I'll try it sometime.
If you can't get somebody in your shop, you can do it.
But I know exactly how to do it.
You can put it on two pages.
You did it once about a year ago, and we've been following that same format since.
I could do that, but this almost not, just because you've got to get bureaucracy of the editors around the country and so forth.
So that's another thing.
Well, your idea of taking that with me on, just to be on the other side for a moment, Ray Price will totally disagree with that, 180 degrees.
First, he thinks it's because the rocket will be counterproductive now, and he thinks, as he said, not when, but today, for a period of a period of some shit or something.
Uh, simply,
Well, and he gets concerned about how he doesn't know if that's why the president is a fighter.
Maybe he's taking them on.
He wants other people to take them on.
That's why I do it.
Well, when you say take them on, what Tom Whitehead has been doing is having one hell of an impact on it.
And he's quite about taking them on.
He says, quite about taking them on.
You can have 13 or 15 or 100 Vermont racer columns and other people can say something, but nothing has the impact of my going out and saying, I know we'll get you to write a piece of honor.
Now that's taking them on.
That's taking them on, and it had to be done.
And I don't care what it is, anybody around here who thinks otherwise, they're wrong.
Because that is what was happening.
And there are millions of people that saw it on television that think that's exactly what they're talking about.
Oh, that say, write on when you do that.
I mean, that's exactly what the new majority says.
They say, my gosh, it also brings it home to these people that write this in their arrogant way.
By God, they're not getting through with it.
They're not going to get away with it.
They're going to be straight.
I think the fact that you did that may have
Well, and the fact that all three networks used that signal.
I mean, did they use that?
Did they?
Oh, sure.
Nah, I thought they did at that hour.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, they, they can think of the president, which they think they, they show the president in a, uh, TV show, you know, some of her, right?
That was rather the point.
That she was breathing hard and obviously angry and, uh... That's what I'm concerned, you know, because it was so clear we are not obviously angry.
Yeah, but you see, that's where, that's...
That's the point I made yesterday.
People don't like me until then.
They saw you.
They know goddamn well that you were in perfect command.
Did you read Boyd's thing on the front camera?
I thought that was said.
Because that's the point that, you know, he spit on his hand, drew a line on the press room floor, and dared to close the crossing.
He lashed his grave, said a bad guy saw on his side of the line, he put his beloved new majority of good citizens who work at their job, do their duty in the military.
So the masterful performance by a canny Nixon who feels he knows what most Americans want is to determine trans-Saharan slavery.
That's right.
He's absolutely... That's exactly... And that's the declaration of class war on the so-called Federation of the League.
Although, we've, in every news conference we've been in, we've never had Rather write it any other way.
He's either always nervous, or something which goes contrary to what everybody else writes.
Oh, that's Rather's standard fare.
He does it every time.
I will say he gave us two days of pretty good coverage, and then he...
stuck in a little one on the radio this morning.
Who cares?
I think people would hear that and resent it.
And not just because we resent it, but I think that's the problem.
You've got to be needle about this.
You've got to do all the work.
Not by Taylor, but by people who say, I heard it.
What the hell are you talking about?
You know?
That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yes, it does.
We don't get that much mail.
Maybe we don't.
People say, I heard it.
What the hell are you talking about?
This is why you're...
I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
It does make a difference.
I know it, but that's recent.
We ran into that before.
Maybe I should start it a little.
It's kind of interesting that Mansfield backed off the amnesty question and Huber stood with you on it.
He's going to be sure to know where people stand on this.
I want him to be sure to know.
He said it's the highest priority in Carl's.
He said it's somewhat monomotor.
It's all he can do.
uh... uh...
uh... uh...
That's the one I guarantee will never get you a little... Oh, you never know?
Somebody might get an attack on a credit card on the floor or something.
It does take time.
I really now, at the end of the week, believe we are, it is sinking in.
The attack on the critics, there has been something every day, maybe not as big as we would like, but it's... That's one way.
Oh, yeah.
Your letters to people have had a hell of an impact because the people that didn't get hurt.
Yes, sir.
Boy, that's all.
They're trying to figure out who's got them and who doesn't.
And those that don't have them are feeling a little bit, you know, turn the counter.
Those that have got them are great.
There's a line off there, obviously, which our boys naturally would have thought of.
But it's the best idea to get them to sweat it.
member-based reporting on any particular matter.
You'll get one if you support it.
That's just exactly the way it is.
Is there another today?
No, but it should be, and if anybody has a press pass, sir, the president is, as you can see, Rachel Hunt is the vice chair, as you can see, Hunt is the vice chair, as you can see, Wright is the vice chair, as you can see, Wright is the vice chair, as you can see, Wright is the vice chair, as you can see, Wright is the vice chair, as you can see, Wright is the vice chair, as you can see,
On that, you had said you wanted to send a letter, Brown mentioned that, hey, a letter to all the people who did, the officials who played the top roles in the Vietnam operation.
And Hague's made up a list.
Yeah, I've put up a list.
And it's the... And, uh... First he's drafted a letter.
Well, there's some that I think, yeah, all of those.
Well, not on this list.
No, but he was there.
that we can never describe, and only I can describe it, because Henry, while he's trying to get it across, he doesn't quite get it, he doesn't quite get it across effectively as he might.
Henry is so concerned about the jeopardizing
that we were frankly in a crack negotiation.
And he didn't say, of course, that he wanted a break from the four days.
And I made him say ten.
I said that in front of him.
He told me about Henry Godman, your gag, and your incident.
And I remember that on the record.
And I said, I kept sending him back, day after day after day, that writing.
Good question.
So I said, well, now, the key part, the reason you couldn't say anything about the bombing is
he said that he said that that was the one one he made that on the bombing point he said that there are three okay three issues about one of the microarrays my point is that they and then after they came back to the table nothing could be said because if you did then they would not negotiate with the mental position where it would be uh compromising he said it would affect the prestige and he said that for that reason
where many, and we've got to recognize and not feel concerned, but many of our friends, in my opinion, like the Chicago Tribune and the Buffalo News and people's papers like that, that their objection was not so much to the bombing as it was to not talking about it.
And they say the President's still got to explain why he didn't talk about it.
Well, Henry's transcript
Yeah, I must say that's one point that they have really turned around on.
I want people to do it because, you know, they get into this.
No, they have.
That's the problem.
The problem is it's compounded to the fact that you were in camp, they, you know, changed the camp and fired all the people and so forth.
Then you do this.
That's how they build this idea that the president or novel letters will not talk.
But you're getting a lot of this stuff now that it's very wise for the president to remain quiet.
And when it's not wise to talk, the thing to do is not to talk.
That's right.
That's right.
No, neither of us are saying the president should have more press conferences and communicate more, but when it's a time to keep quiet, then he would be very wise to keep quiet instead of running out and talking and screaming about it.
But there's been a lot of...
They are going to be screaming about having too many press conferences within about three months.
I will not predict it.
Rather than just usable press conferences.
syndrome before.
When they were talking about the isolated person, then you were out making press conferences and they were demanding equal time.
You couldn't, you can't satisfy them.
That's, that's whatever the Washington line is, whatever the mindset is at the moment is what they attach.
And it will always, you must say, it's what we're doing, whatever it is.
I must say that they, uh, in terms of the press, though, that we, we were able to at least, it was agreed that we got across pretty bold points that,
That smacked a few points.
You've got Amnesty, the name of the wall.
But get Bob or somebody, get Colton Timmons, you know, the boys over there.
They should get our people up there to force that issue out.
Or even get the Republicans to say, we back the president on Amnesty.
And let's see what the hell they are.
Maybe there ought to be a way, there ought to be a way to bring very cleverly a resolution whereby I particularly rather like to have them in the house.
I particularly like that in the house because those guys will have to run.
And I'd like to get every son of a bitch, them and Doug, to have to be out there saying, I am for an amnesty or I don't support the President of the House.
maybe get a positive in that maybe that's the way to enforce it true into that way speaking of the house and saying what is your feeling about uh the uh i know it's supposed to be building up tremendously but all these big actions and congress is taking you know i'm going to pass this bill and this bill and this bill on this bill i'm not concerned about it i think we're going to have it down here we're going to have to deal with the goddamn things and they'll roll some some not rolls on others
No, sir.
No.
No, not yet.
At a right point.
But it isn't the right issue right now.
The issue right now to be talked about is just what the hell we are talking about because...
Yes, sir.
what do you think now that the full stretches they've got to take it basically making two calls headlines out of a story that is three months old sir that's what that was exactly right
It wasn't a separate letter from Kennedy about which they implied.
You have to read all the way through to find out what it is.
It's two pages out of a 13-page memorandum on his budget, seeking a budget for his subcommittee.
What the Washington Post and the Seward have done with that Watergate story is, and the New York Times, is incredible.
To take old stuff, repackage it.
I mean, I don't know how many times I've read Irvin and sent a whole hearing.
Urban hadn't opened his mouth, but you keep, you know, any kind of a movement, and they'd say, well, now we're going to see what we can do.
I just want to say that I read that there, Senator Earl.
I, uh, I, uh, I said I read this how I had met these people.
Uh, I was wondering if you may recall the results of the 1972 elections.
The one in history, is that right?
The one in history, is that right?
The one in history, is that right?
The one in history, is that right?
if we can keep the subject on our ground and not giving an argument about whether we're going to hurt the poor folks.
I don't know.
It's going to be hard.
That's the gun they're pushing, too.
The Democrats, they want to fight that.
They're on it.
We've just got to demagogue them right back.
Come right back to them and raise taxes for people.
That's not the issue that people are concerned with.
People are very uptight when Stennis gets shot.
They get very upset over busing.
and I'm going to get back without saying a word.
I just don't know.
The beauty of that thing on that is that the people that want to come back are such assholes.
They come back and they say, I don't want to come back and I'm not going to serve and I'm just going to stay over here.
I love that goddamn West Point cat.
His wife is having a date where he should stay over there.
He's got a free vacation.
He will.
Will he stay?
He's got to hurry.
He don't need an answer.
Right.
Would you read where one of the kids in Canada came back because he heard the draft was up?
Sure it is.
And the people said, gee, you know, go.
On that one, we're right.
We're right also morally.
Because if you say that they, if they get amnesty, then you say the two and a half million more Americans, we're immoral.
Because the amnesty thing can only be justified on the basis that they had a higher morality.
And it was immoral, and therefore we cannot punish them for putting morality.
and by god they are not going to get away with that this is a question of compassion compassion is fine on an individual basis some guys haven't been in the brain to remember if his wife has died or he's done something or this or that you get out but never on the basis of the lips the lips are one fantasy because they it isn't because of their concern about the assholes that went over it they're trying to prove that the war is more
And the other point is, all those people who deserted or had the option, as a lot of people thought they had, were being conscientious objectors.
We were too goddamn liberal to be conscientious objectors in this war, but they served.
But C.O.s served.
But C.O.s served.
But he didn't fight.
If they thought it was wrong to fight the war, they had a legal route to avoid it.
All they had to do was declare their conscience.
That's right.
Well, I don't think we can be very proud of those who helped.
Well, the number of people in this war, the number of people
People took it out of Congress, and we're now giving them veterans benefits, so they, you know, it's a little absurd, but we're giving the country a subjection, right?
Apparently, it gives some.
Oh, well.
I don't know.
If that was some kind of veterans benefits, God damn it, it's not going to be done.
But that's the answer, though, to this harshness argument and all that.
There is a legal room for those people.
They simply deploy.
It is a cruel place.
And they knowingly did it.
And they did it knowingly.
That's right.
You know, the issue with the Congress is where there aren't that many of them.
It is terribly important to remember that attitudes in the country are very different today than they were 10 years ago.
I don't think the Congress understands this because most of those guys in the Congress fought through the battles of aid to education, model cities,
They fought through health care, Medicare.
And those were the real gut issues in those days.
They aren't the gut issues today.
But the gut issues today are how people live their own lives.
And as Sunwinger said, when the Senate thing happened, everybody was talking about, we've got to have capital punishment.
Now, this is a different mood in this country today.
And they want it.
Oh, God.
He says,
I remember in the late 50s and the early 60s.
uh... uh...
We've got to pick up the president's lead.
The way to do it is to horror-storm him, not to get it on a substance-destruction program.
The way – this is to say that it's ridiculous to provide school lunches because we can't afford it.
The way to do it is to cite the example of John Warner's little girl whose mother has – is worth $300 billion, who goes off to some goddamn private school.
She's paying $3,000 a year for it, and the government goes out and buys her lunch.
Ethics, since life's alienators, will, I take care, sweep in the streets, for a day to learn a lesson.
So I think we waited and floated in the term ten at breakfast while the other one sat out there with the other two, who read it in terms of the poor and the elderly.
And I wish they'd given me a question on it.
Well, I thought again.
uh we they say whether we are not going money but for you know the waiter earlier suggested the answer and this is the way he should suggest he said well we've increased the report by 400 percent we've increased the elevator rate 300 percent so forth so on and so on all right we have so that shows we're not hard-hearted but not now we're not the point that i think is this the idea and this is a very important point chuck the congress represents special interests
The president represents the public.
It's the FDR, I'll absolutely take that.
But it is to the general interest of the board, for example, not to have the prices go up.
It's to the general interest of everybody who sends his kids to school, the elderly, not to have their taxes go up.
And therefore, when the president takes action,
Yes, sir.
That's pretty much what I'm saying.
Well, you know what I picked up?
This is mine.
You're ending the lead.
Oh, God.
You see, he called me.
It was a goddamn accident.
That's not what I'm arguing.
You're telling him that I... Well, you know, well, you keep cursing.
I picked it up right out of what he said.
It's a...
I wrote that into the speech, you know.
It's directly out of...
It's a variation of that that didn't come in from earlier in the price.
It's directly out of... And it was the last...
Directly out of... And it was the lead.
And every...
They picked it up and ran it as the lead of... Again, and everybody, they said everything.
Underline one sentence.
That they think is going to be the catchy lead.
In other words, it's one sentence.
One dead sentence.
Not one minute, one sentence.
That's right.
Which says it all.
And sometimes it's a...
It's a word.
I mean, like, you know, sure, this is going to raise hell with some of the advocates of the Peace Corps, but if you never read the very book, you're finished.
I've said, when you come to the Porsche chapter, or chapter 11, I read about the Peace Corps, and apparently there's a British liberal in it.
He tears this shit up, and he's absolutely right.
I know.
But the point of that is to be a man of peace.
uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh... uh...
And most of the countries don't want the peace.
And this is actually where the new morality started, too.
It's where they start sleeping with each other and taking notes and all that.
That's true.
Boys and girls, boys and boys.
Yeah.
And blacks and whites.
But you see, Bob, the reason I stuck that in, that job with the Peace Corps, I did it in order to kick it out.
Let me tell you this.
It's the thing I'm sure...
All of us have to realize we have controversy.
Controversy, controversy.
Excitement is the most important element of politics.
And the, you have two things.
You've got basically, and God bless him, because he's a marvelous person.
I'll be compassionate.
I'll be compassionate on an individual basis and we'll make one hell of a lot out of it when I can.
much further than Buchanan, as Buchanan is usually pretty rough, although they always tone it down for him, because Buchanan didn't find any major objections.
He was cheering like I was.
Anyway, my point is, you see, what controversy does, where the President is concerned, is to create the one element that is vitally important, the excitement.
Now, the trouble with that is still,
I didn't, I've seen it, you've all seen it, I didn't see it, of course.
But of course, they were experts.
And Taylor was a most totally honest and objective, cold-blooded fellow who got around here because he never pandered to anybody.
He said, well, to the right.
I go, wait a minute, I'm trying.
He said, well, he did fine.
He says, but they just didn't give him the questions and they didn't bring him out.
And I said, well, that's right.
But he said, it was not a minus, it was a plus.
But it was not a big plus.
Now the point is, the point is that, or whatever they want to say about my appearances, I'm speaking now, whether it's on the press or with the assholes in here, they have never yet been, they say very, they may rather make this on something or other, but they're not relevant.
And it's that way.
The rather thing, they said, is the postpartum on that.
That's almost, it's almost predictable, isn't it?
Well, it is predictable.
The only thing...
The president was breathing hard.
I don't think he was breathing hard.
Does that count true?
No.
Of course not.
Not the opposite.
Of course not.
You looked very... You were so low-key.
Yeah, you were calm, totally in control.
And the American public see you that way, and they listen to Dan Rather, and that makes them mad at Rather.
They don't buy that.
No, but rather, the only thing that interests me about Rather is what particular line he's going to take.
And it took him two days this time to figure out what kind of sniping he could do.
It doesn't matter.
The people see that.
They saw five to seven minutes of it as a lead, which is the thing they really watch on TV.
And you've got the points across beautifully.
The other thing the controversy does is it's a prison.
And it doesn't always matter whether you're right or wrong.
And that's a very long...
They want it strong.
That's the way they, that's the way they smell it and get out.
If you're resilient, you're good.
Why did you, you said Winkover had something in that too?
It was a handful.
It was a handful.