On February 6, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:51 pm to 1:23 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 850-011 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I should have reported back to you and I talked to Manstein about that.
His guy was way off base.
Our guy was very slightly off base.
The Defense Department played it exactly the way they should.
But I went through the whole thing.
I told him you were deeply disturbed that any such thing would arise.
He backed off.
I said, you know, we're going to court-martial a man because we don't tolerate that kind of activity.
He said, oh, no, don't do that.
I said, well, we may have to.
He faces his complaints.
I'm not finding any complaints.
He clearly understood.
And I said, well, the president, as you know, won't tolerate anything like that.
This is not right.
Right.
Anyway, he was very happy, very gracious about it.
Why don't you, uh...
Yes.
The, uh...
I talked to Scott and I talked to David.
I know what the deal is with the command.
What has happened is that David has in him and knows he has
can utilize the March 31st release.
He went to Campbell on the 10th.
Going back, the question of his captain calling him in was last summer.
There has been no pressure from his captain since then.
The question of the Secretary of the Navy's involvement was last December when David had a national center.
Yeah, December 72.
David applied in September of 72 for early release.
Routine application.
He wanted to do it at the time a ship went into the yard, which it was then scheduled to do shortly after the first of the year, so he said any time after that he would like to be released.
The release date for the big batch of early release types was December 31st.
When David put his application in, the guy in view first told him there'd be no problem, that it was, you know, routine and it would work fine.
Then, and it was before that, the captain had told him don't send it in or something, put some pressure on him that he ought to stay on.
Uh, when he sent it in, they did not process it into the December batch, partly because he wanted to wait until the ship came in, and partly because somebody screwed up on it in due course.
Anyway, he was not on the December early release list.
Because he wasn't, Scowcroft
went to Warner and said, can we get him on that December release so that he can get out then?
And Warner said, yes, we definitely can.
Scott Ross said, will it be totally discreet?
And Warner said, no, you'll get some kind of attention drawn to it if you do that, because it's already been done.
We'll have to take a special action to put him on.
And they said, because, well, and he didn't want to go out then anyway, because they had changed, no, at that time, his...
going to the art was set for after the first.
So what Warner said is we've got another match coming up in a couple months.
Let me put him on that, which would be completely routine and no one will never be noticed by anyone.
So they did.
He's on and he has a release as of March 31st.
Now he's going to Campbell.
and said that he's concerned that everything is all coming together the way it ought to now, that he should just go in the yard till June now.
They've changed the yard date.
That's the logical time before we get out.
He asked Campbell to investigate the question of whether there was a release date
that would be subsequent to a ship going in the yard that he could go at that time.
Campbell, there it is, apparently, as of June 30, the end of the fiscal year.
And he's giving him that option.
Now, David says he doesn't know which option he'd take.
He wanted to be sure he could get out in July.
He doesn't want to regret doing that.
He prefers, he says, to get out in July because he's concerned about the...
leaving before they come into the yard.
He'll leave an empty pillow that once they're in the yard, it won't be because it will be in dried up for a long time around.
And at that point, his job was done anyway.
And I said, well, I just, I said to David, I just wanted to be, I didn't raise any question of you or anything like that.
I just said I wanted to be sure the office here was handling it in the way he wanted it handled and that there wasn't
anybody screwed anything up or advising him on it and contrary to his own wishes he said no that the only pressure here is internal and i just feel that march 31st is not right i feel better about july but i do want to keep the march 31st open because it's a good time for julie and me on a personal basis and i still may take that but i asked him we'll look into the others so uh he said his original request was any time after march
What do you say, does my trade version require, does it look like it's out of the way?
No, you can still do my trade version.
There's no problem with getting up there at all.
I'm going to talk to Campbell and make sure that Campbell understands that the way to go about this is to keep the auction open, not go out on July the 1st.
What I was getting at, you said earlier, and I just want to be sure I understand that it would look as if he had gotten special here.
He had gotten out in December.
He had gotten out in December because he was on that list.
He's on the March watch.
So it will not look special if he gets out of March, but he's concerned that it may not look good because his duty time, it is the logical breaking time because his
I'm going to get Campbell to try and talk me into taking the March shake.
And he said that it's ridiculous.
I know the way he actually put all the data that he used.
You can borrow a kid, and you can't tell the kid that he isn't all that important to the Navy.
I mean, they've got JGs up their ass, so one JG more or less is not going to affect the future.
I just want to be sure that there isn't somebody, some other kid that complies with the early release that he pushes off.
That we cannot have.
You see that?
Right.
I don't think that's the case today.
Well, I'm told that's not the case.
That's right.
There's no problem in that respect if you take the March 31st.
There's no problem in that March 31st.
Well, when you've got it, maybe they'll see how it ends.
That's what I see.
All right.
What's the weekend's time?
Sure.
Because he knows that all hell can break loose on that sort of thing.
It looks like he got something that somebody else didn't get.
That's the point you've got to put straight to Campbell.
He's got to understand.
Yeah, I think part of what he's looking at, the group that gets out of March is only about 46, I think it is.
Whereas it was 500 or 600 that got out in December.
And I think he's thinking maybe there will be, at the end of the fiscal year, a big group getting out.
getting out of the building and getting over to the Capitol.
Sure.
To the Capitol and find out, because we've got a DRU to find out what's going on.
Well, you can.
They've tried to handle it, you know, on the basis that the White House is not trying to interfere.
Right.
And they're the same with Super Bowl Street.
That's right.
I know.
And
Well, I asked everyone here and then decided that he does not have some special treatment.
So we just, and the thing I said to David, the note on here is special treatment.
The thought is to make sure that you don't get screwed because of who you are.
Because as well as being loved, you can also be sad.
Right, right.
And I think he is the scope I mentioned.
He does have a section chief who is a complete chef.
He's a complete chef.
Who works him over all the time.
Right.
I held him up.
I held him up.
And that's a different matter.
It has nothing to do with his release.
It has to do with just his... Ah, a couple other key things.
I thought, uh...
I talked to Julie.
Uh, I heard you wanted to talk to her.
She wanted to talk to you about it.
They were kind of off, even though it had to be for four or five days, more than five days.
It was a really tough one.
So we definitely thought it was a tough one.
Oh, okay.
Let's try it.
Why did we see it?
I don't know.
I can't get back to it.
Hey, listen.
If I ever got hit, it may have all of that scaring me.
There will be the 45 days maybe you want to wait and see anyone up there or something.
All right.
Now the Congress is getting out of here.
Um, I was thinking, I'm not only thirsty, but, uh, I was thinking, I mean, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you know, they're both, you
They will confirm under 30.
I don't know, maybe that, maybe it was wrong, I guess.
It's, you know, usually no problem leaving before the house is signed.
I don't know.
Right?
Okay, why don't you turn to me?
Well, they, they sort of teeter out anyway, and stuff.
I don't think you should.
I just got a committee meeting Friday morning.
No, we won't do that.
That doesn't change it.
What other thing can we do in California?
I see no reason to
If anybody got any real good ideas, I'll be glad to hear them, you know.
There's nothing on that.
Except I don't want to just do the main work.
That's right.
There was nothing.
You know, we started on it before.
There was nothing, you know, on it.
Nothing.
It just leaped up as being a great...
I mean, you do.
Yeah, they have to be.
Sure.
One possibility out there, you can put down and see if it sounds.
Check this with Coastal.
If it's still there.
You know, he's been out in the Gulf.
I'd be glad to see him come along.
It occurred to me that it might be useful to have a sort of a, sort of a free cabinet meeting Thursday, if Wagner is sworn in.
Just at least have a quiet check to see whether or not there are hearings in the cabinet office here and there, and that sort of thing.
And what I would do if it happened.
I've been thinking about whether we ought to do something with the capital Y's.
And I think the best place to do that is in Canberra.
So we need a stock market.
I would, I would be willing to get into the job a little bit after that.
But I think at breakfast, possibly, I don't want to do it.
Just give them a little bit of the same feeling, you know, of trying to before they think it's like a business.
Would you go through that, some of that leadership material?
Or just your part of it?
I guess some of the leadership material is for you.
We have to get a better feeling about it.
A better feeling as to how to present things.
We have a situation where Mike and Shep made a point this morning.
I know that if you guys remember the law, it says that we just get those.
a few dragging sentences, and a couple of pages of Johnson's.
If you just take the time to look at the budget charts, you see that it tells all of these terms more and more and more.
And in this case, much to my regret, you say, John's right with John Earl for about five or six senators, maybe ten congressmen, but he's wrong for most of them.
You live or die.
and say, here's the thing to say.
Get the government off my back and out of my pocket.
Things like that.
Or you're spending, or you increase spending for a quarter of a quarter percent or something.
You know, these graduates have got to be there in simple, understanding terms.
You can't leave them to the police on the bench and take those charges.
And we ran into that this morning.
Very impressive, very, very, particularly.
And I'm, and Mike Sheldon, Sheldon's a person, I suspect, because he's so good.
But, but he doesn't, he can't believe it, and for him, because he's so way, I mean, he's, he doesn't put it in those simple, grabby terms that you've got to put in anything.
He's not as bad as the same, but you know, he's so involved in all the details, and he's wanted to charge something.
I've seen those charges three times myself, and I'll be gone then if I can remember.
Yeah.
Nothing.
I can remember.
I have yet to read it.
I'm not going to cover this.
a few lines that are on a couple pages, and he memorized them and used those over and over and over again to use them in speeches, and that's what you have to do.
I think, really, I think, for the sake of it, I swear to you, they made the point, and I agree with them on this one, about the fact that they started off with a point about exactly 180 degrees wrong, because all the networks and all the papers played into it.
We were admitted that we were holding so much money.
Rather than making the point that I urged that they make, that is, that we were holding less than previous administrations.
Well, that was water strong in the center of the point.
Sure, it wasn't breathing, but it was the cigarettes that they used.
It didn't get hot out, but he says that just one of those problems is that they don't understand.
Maybe they don't want to make it, but one of the points we're talking about this morning, which is absolutely true, is that there is, with the exception of six or eight people, there's nobody
in this town or in this country, who understands the budget, the budget process, what appropriations are, what expenditure, what authorizations are, what compounding is, or anything else.
They all have sort of vague notions, but I think as far as everybody knows, everybody here is starting to be obsessed with this.
That's what we're saying.
It's a question of raising your taxes.
It's a question of raising your prices.
You know, just whacking right over there.
Shultz did a, I heard him on the radio last night.
He was absolutely superb on the Hill because of the way he came back on the question.
Because the guy said that a senator hit him on the, or a communist, I guess it was, hit him on the, how can the president thwart the will of the people by refusing to do what Congress passes?
And Shultz said, the president's elected to, Shultz said,
Mr.
Congressman, or Mr. Chairman, I guess it was, I can't believe that he said it, you know, just this super righteous indication.
I can't believe that the Congress thinks it's the will of the people that taxes be increased and inflation keep going up.
He said it's the President's responsibility to do what can be done in order to stop that from happening.
It's just, you know, they twisted the name back as Will of the People.
Well, the Will of the People was the President.
Well, the Congress, you know, they passed a law that represents the Will of the People.
Well, it doesn't make a very clear issue on this.
We were going to raise taxes, we were going to also spend it on how they had to vote for somebody else if they wanted to do it.
No congressman voted for Senator Cedar.
No congressman voted for Marshal Cedar.
Did you see the Gallup poll today?
No.
Spending?
No.
Approval of the president, 68.
Oh, I didn't even know they had one.
We didn't either.
It disappeared.
I was saying it was a petition.
It wasn't before they went on.
That's the highest it's ever been, except November 3rd.
It's the same as it was right after November 3rd.
When did he take his second piece of it?
Yep.
I guess that's predictable.
What does he have since then?
He went up 14 points.
He had, after the election, it was 66.
In December, it went down to 61.
And in January, it went down to 55 or 50.
It went down to 54 because this was a 14-point increase.
When did he publish the 54th?
He didn't publish it.
He didn't publish it?
He did.
He put...
He skipped two of those.
He published one of them.
He published the 61.
Did he?
He published the 66, but I haven't seen any since then.
I haven't watched any of those.
I haven't read any of those.
He hasn't published...
He skipped a couple of them, but then he put...
He had all of them out.
He finally put this one out.
Also, of course, they asked to approve or disagree with the first family, and we had not.
The 77th approved.
Yeah, we had a session this morning.
You know, all that good view is on your mind.
Of course, obviously, you expand the thing.
I think we've got to come up with a way if that's the way it's going to be.
I think he's got to get, he's got to get a greater energy than himself.
I think he is.
He came down to being this morning.
He's got to be right on his back.
I don't know who else is.
Well, the other guy that is very helpful and that is Bryce, he can help us maneuvering that.
He looks like he's set one out.
What about the Johnson?
Why are we having her?
We're playing out today.
How about having that played to our friend, to Andrews?
They did.
Andreas took it to Hubert, and Hubert took it to Ervin.
And Ervin was totally unimpressed.
Couldn't care less.
Hubert was a little concerned about it, but Ervin, not at all.
Ervin...
What these guys are going to do now is not the great constitutional authority sets itself up to be.
He is nothing but a partisan member.
Well, partisan and very anxious to get publicity.
He loves and he's finally come into the limelight.
Some staff member has made a crack who's quoted this morning.
You should see the number of speaking invitations he's getting.
We've waited 30 years for this.
But anyway, he's playing this, this, uh,
role above and beyond so all this business about it we thought that maybe he wouldn't go forward wrong he's just trying to see if he can probably and what i'll be expanding investigations i think we've really got to climb into these things what about these amendments today on the on the charge of the committee and uh they're working a meeting right now at the policy committee and carlo got uh talent
after the meeting today, who are the three guys who can get some help from the leadership.
And Tower's chairman of the policy committee, and he's going to crank them up on the point that, and Bryce comes up with a good talking point here as we start into the Senate thing, which is that this is a dire threat to the two-party system.
Because for the first time in our history, we have one of the political parties
using the machinery of government to investigate the other political party.
And then, you know, he's trying to get them stirred up.
Bill Duvall isn't going to make any difference, and he doesn't have any illusions about it.
He's just trying to make up, you know, this is totally a partisan thing.
The committee that they are setting up under their bill is three Democrats and two Republicans.
They're going to make a pitch to make it three Democrats and three Republicans on the basis that the Senate Ethics Committee is also in that way, in order to be bipartisan.
This must be bipartisan, therefore it's got to be treated by each party.
Then they're going to go for an executive session on the vote of three members position in the hopes that if they get those two, then we're in awfully good shape compared to where we'll probably be, which is because we probably won't get this open hearings with only two Republicans.
So we have no control over any of the other Republicans, are we?
Who plays the majority leader?
The minority leader.
Well, it's Scott.
Well, what we, the recommendations are, if it's two, is that it's Brock and, no, excuse me, it's Griffin and Tower.
Griffin didn't pick the legal stuff, and Tower played the political.
And if it's three, you add Brock to it.
And that's
That's what they're gonna push for our membership.
And it seems to me that the Johnson fire tactic has got to be blown.
I would wait a little while, but they're gonna rumor it this afternoon.
They're gonna use that on the floor as a basis.
And they're also gonna go out and cut loose this afternoon on his what-the-hell-I-wired.
Got to bug the money.
It's always done.
And they're gonna make some illusions, too.
probable Kennedy wiretapping in 1960, or surveying some of your campaign activity.
And I went around and we were sure we were trying to... Yeah.
That that's the only thing the other leadership has.
It's all just a bunch of confident alteration and pusher.
And that makes the point that, you know... Well...
All they really are going to accomplish out of this when it's all said and done, unless they might get one of these amendments or two of them, is to lay the position that this is a purely partisan political maneuver that has nothing to do with trying to find out the facts.
Then it'll be a couple months before they start to hear it, so we have time to get counsel and see what we do on all that.
They must exist with minority counsel.
Well, what they're existing on is a minority, an equal minority staff.
But they won't get that, but they'll definitely get minority counsel.
Does anybody follow up on my suggestion?
The FBI immediately, because of what Senator Brewster said about Senator Brewster, called Senator Hartke and others.
It's such an obvious thing that it should have been done maybe like last week.
Remember when Brewster did it, he said there might be members of the Senate involved in this.
I don't know.
I would call the FBI and investigate on it.
What is the president thinking about with regard to the FBI?
Do we go with Gray?
There was one other guy they were running a final check on, and they were like,
What do you think is another way of having Kevin?
He doesn't have a good idea of what's happening.
Because he don't mind doing it instead of being...
Well, accomplishing it, that's probably pretty good therapy, and it's probably good, probably the external type stuff.
Another meeting with the cabinet that's good to serve.
But then you see, when we come back, we're not expecting to have quite as many, quite as much of it.
I'm getting a lot of it on the way right now.
That's, you might as well, and that's, we've been to the Senate cabinet meeting, and I think in this case it was breakfast, because then they, 8 o'clock, breakfast in the morning, and that way they can all get to their hearings, and it gives us a cutoff on time, I think.
They're the same.
And by this time, maybe they could get a boil down version.
Our people do not understand how to make a political point, you know what I mean?
A public relations point.
It isn't just because it's me that I can get it, but I mean, sure, I can say anything in this news, but I say things in ways that grab people.
That's right.
How the hell does it matter?
What do you have to do with it, for example, to keep them like that?
Can't we?
See, what I'm afraid of is to believe that John Stepp is basically the heat of the people.
God damn it, they just don't think in terms of ways that we can break it down.
I mean, you're wrong, but I, I didn't, I'm not smart enough to reject that.
I always think we try to give definitive documents that tell the whole story.
I started with that thing.
I started with a couple of points that they don't understand.
They will not read it, sir.
They don't want to know the whole rationale.
They just want to know something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.