Conversation 852-005

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Yeah, how is it?

Well, the old cocks are so tough, he may make it.

He was, they thought he was, they gave him four days yesterday, that's what I learned, and that's why I went out.

I called him at night last night, and I said he had a good night, but I remember, oh my God, he just, Jesus, when you think of that signing thing and that other job, it's scary.

God, like most of us, I mean, it's just so hard.

Yeah, it's scary.

But he had his, his grip was good, and he,

You know, he's such an endowment.

He's been, he's been fighting our battles.

He's been fighting our battles.

I know it's hard, so it did well.

I was in this line, and he, and I was marching over, and I am closer to calling, and he says, U.S. State and I, for a vested interest in this issue, I said, I think I have hit on a line that we need to invest in.

He said, rather than compassion, rather than, it gets away from the business of, uh,

compassion is fine for some, but particularly the reparations thing won't send the right one up the wall.

So we're going to invest it in peace.

But Howard Smith, it's also a very interesting point.

It shows how honest he is.

He said, you know, most everybody, including himself, had not thought this was going to work.

And he said, let's work it out.

Another very good thing that I like is the fact that they're kind, they're, you know,

It doesn't make any difference whether you have a damn thing to do with it or not.

We'll claim it.

We've got to claim every damn thing that happens.

If we get this required by the 11th or 12th, we'll claim it.

Absolutely.

No, but I want to have a claim, too.

Absolutely.

For the purpose of your travel.

Absolutely.

One of your purposes, you know.

Absolutely.

And that's why you had insistence that I stop in Vientiane.

That's what got us that headline.

Well, I know, but you...

Well, you thought of it, but we... Well, I thought of it, but I was sort of leaning slightly against it.

The main thing, go there.

Go there, because we have a big stake in the loss.

So... No, I think it's fine.

And you know what you were saying, since I was on the whole here, the... Our enemies...

Fulbright was there yesterday, and I'm saying that it's the one we put him on, but he wasn't making a bleep.

I mean, he didn't have anything to say.

Rogers was there with him and said, my God, he says, I'm talking to Fulbright.

He said, I'll come down any time you want.

So it was an over and over.

Can you imagine the dishonesty of those people?

There they are.

I know we can really keep them to the defense of what you get back by continuing to wrap this up.

But one thing you have to remember, and that's why I talked so much about the idea of an issue of Europe.

One thing you have to remember is that two things.

One, the standpoint of the American public

They'll get tired of me hearing about Vietnam after a while.

They need something new to think about.

And I've got to take it to a new mountain.

Now, that means we've got Russia coming up.

That's one thing.

But I think if we could move something in terms of a brand new scene for Europe, and not just blow it out full blown, but we could start getting the word we're thinking in some sense.

Well, that's actually where the Peterson mission can help us.

Yeah.

Well, he's imaginative, and he may come up with a few good ideas.

Sure.

And at any rate, it's some action.

And then I think that as soon as I get back, starting in March, we'll get the British back over, and then we'll start cracking on him.

That's, you know, after they call finish Algeria.

Yeah.

He took on Kennedy.

Oh, yeah.

I wasn't around.

It was theater.

He wanted to take the French mind off Algeria.

Now, we don't want to have to take anybody on.

We need to build something.

Well, we can build there.

And I think a Latin name is just in order.

I leave Africa alone.

I'll see Moynihan.

And I'm going to be very hard on Moynihan.

I'm going to say, now, Pat, you go out there and you spend a couple of months.

But I says, in the meantime, before you, if you're not taking any suggestions from State or anybody else about normalizing fast and coming in there, so if you go into the Indians trying to be the good guy right away, they'll have no respect for you.

Absolutely.

It'll be a little bit hard to get.

It'll be hard to get.

Did you tell him that?

What did you tell him?

No, no.

Yeah, I don't want him.

I feel very strongly with Mrs. Gandhi.

Let her wait.

Let her do a little while.

I told him that.

You know, he's all excited.

Of course, he comes from a Harvard environment.

I know.

We'll get him out there.

He'll snuggle a few times and get angry.

That's right.

Well, Mr. President, I'm supposed to be out there already.

It's supposed to take over 10.

But I'll cable you daily from Hanoi to just give you a brief summary of what's going on.

Yeah.

And we'll make...

I don't know what you mean.

I've worked it out with Ziegler.

Well, they do not have foreign press there.

I mean, they will not have Western press there.

I sent them the cable you and I had agreed on.

And I agreed that we had no objections.

And they said within this period of our exchanges, they do not think they should have press there.

But they made the decision.

Good, good.

And the only thing you need to do with the, you don't need to be concerned about client.

The only thing you need to do is to, you know how you always have to talk to some of your staff.

You can just sit around and sort of give them a feel of the flavor and the color and the rest, that sort of thing.

The Chinese are easy.

They'll take care of it.

Whatever is required.

Any sightseeing that we do, we'll take them along.

Any dinners they get, we'll take them along.

That's right.

Substance.

It's got to be you and me.

In fact, I don't want you to go too far with Sullivan on that substance.

For example, on this economic aid man.

I don't want any numbers to get out.

The man who called me this morning...

He wants to know the number.

No.

He... About China.

About China.

Second to say how delighted he was that I might go back to Harvard when that's unimposed.

And thirdly, to say that economic aid, he's going to back us, but he wants me to know it's going to be tough going, that he's getting a lot of mail on it.

And he said, but he wants us to know that you'll be in our corner, you'll help us manage it.

But we won't have to do that, as I said.

I know that the only way we can do it is to make it appear that that's the problem.

You understand?

The first year.

Now, by and by, we just have to do it.

And we can find ways to do it with that.

And everybody decided to get in there.

And we've got to put it into several pots.

Put it into several pots.

And I think if you're, when you're talking to an architect, I mean, I did that earlier in the book, you can start to get them on that.

That means sit down with the president.

I think if you've got another minute, it's probably worthwhile mentioning, I'm thinking of this strategy last night.

I don't know how to come up with that, but you could.

They don't know our world.

But you could say, well, I'm going to tell you something.

I'm going to tell you something.

Our system is a very complicated one of the rest.

And the president is a master at handling it.

And he knows it, but let me say, first let us begin with what he and we want.

We want a program of economic reconstruction.

We want the number that you have talked about.

But the President feels we should have more.

He feels we can get it, but we have to do it in ways that

that are more subtle, and that they therefore have got to leave the judgment to him as to how much of it is in the bilateral pot and how much in others this year.

But we'll say, for example, getting the others sucked into it, that's the President's view, is very much in their interest, because then in the end they're going to get more.

And then as far as our commitment is concerned,

in fact, if I can get ours easier, if I can get others to come along, then that is the first question to be asked.

If I can get others to come along, that is, and the way they do it is that we have to make, the way we can get the American commitment the easiest is to show that others are participating in it.

So please leave the judgment to him on this point.

I think he could talk that way to himself.

I'll try.

They're a suspicious bunch of bastards, but they've got to realize the fact of life, I'll tell them.

because they should send somebody they trust around the hill.

Well, you can tell them this, that we checked it all out, and that Senator Mansfield called you and told you this, and that I had checked it all out, and that the president, ever since this thing was announced on the 23rd, I put in the speech that we were going to aid and all that, but that we are going to have a massive problem.

We're going to make it, but they have got to cooperate with us in the way we do it.

Well?

Air Force One, we have one of the good planes.

I have one of the good planes, not Air Force One.

I have one of the... Well, it's a good plane.

It's a bad plane.

Oh, yeah, it's a bad plane.

Where are you first shot?

Back, sir.

Do not need to stop in any place before a man comes in.

Well, three people, three people.

We stopped in Spain.

Oh, you're going to Europe anyway.

We're stopping in Spain and in Tehran.

But I'll be in Bangkok in 20 hours.

It's faster that way.

You know one reason it's faster?

I hadn't thought of it.

Of course, the winds coming this way to California, it's four to half an hour, so it's five to half an hour.

Then I'm going to Etienne.

The press is going crazy.

They're all calling Ziegler, calling me, whether they can come along.

I keep putting it on the Northeastern news.

Sure.

Is that what you said?

No, I'm sorry.

We had no attention to it.

they let you in we don't know what facilities they have so instead of fly to the north another mission but you know it's a hell of a lot different

That's right.

When we went there, you know, we talked about June.

We talked about the Narcan and Iagali.

But think of all the times we've gone.

Think of all the options.

I know it's no joke, but it's been under the gun.

All the other trips I've gone on, we just didn't know what was going to come out of it.

And you know, it was a very interesting thing you mentioned.

I think you mentioned that I had to call and show the pool to have a

to have after this tremendous press barrage.

I mean, probably even our friends at the Chicago Tribune and others were saying, well, we've always been for the president of the Washington Star, Buffalo News, and other hard-hitting.

They said, well, Los Angeles Times were a vicious editorial.

It was the most vicious.

And the convicts are all headings.

This is that during the December bombing.

And the Senate came on.

We didn't have any positive things at all.

Saying, well, why doesn't he explain?

Why doesn't he explain?

Everybody thought, well, we're on the ropes.

And then, so Gallup would come with 68% off.

That would scare the shit out of the press.

What do you think?

60% and 70% think UV is not as good.

But you see what it does to them.

Because it does to our enemies, huh?

And some of them will start coming around.

And the Gallup recalls, I think one thing you should have in mind is this.

We will not be fooled by it.

But a fellow like Gallup, when he's really sickling to you in a curious way,

They're all robbed.

They're everything to themselves.

And they can't come back that way.

But over a period of time, they can't bear the thought for four years of having no communication.

That's why we keep them out for a while.

And this is why I get a lot of phone calls now about my television in the draft from universities saying we didn't understand the bombing.

Now we understand.

Yeah.

Good.

That's all bullshit.

Because if it hadn't succeeded in manners, I could have gone on television five nights a week and heard the same thing.

I think.

Your prediction, though, with regard to the fact that some of the doves would come back after we have peace, short-range is totally wrong.

And long-range, over a period of time, some of them will come back.

Some.

They'll never be trustworthy.

They can't bear being on the outside.

Exactly.

And let them feel they're going to be on the outside and make them come to us.

That's the whole point.

We can consider discussing.

We can reselect, perhaps, into the bottom some of these ideas you had when you came in here, bringing small groups in.

Yeah.

It gives us a little bit of a kick.

Sure.

Right.

How do you find joining the helicopter panel?

I'm going to take...