Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 853 › Conversation 853-014

Nixon, Campbell & Ehrlichman on Energy Policy and Foreign Relations

Thursday, February 8, 1973 · 1:21 PM–2:33 PM ET · Oval Office · 17 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Bull, Stephen B.; Campbell, John L.; Ehrlichman, John D.; Cole, Kenneth R., Jr.; White House photographer; Campbell, Jane; DiBona, Charles J.; Shultz, George P.; Scowcroft, Brent G. (Gen.)Conversation853-014 on Tape 853StartThursday, February 8, 1973 at 1:21 PMEndThursday, February 8, 1973 at 2:33 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 853-014 ↗

AI Summary

The meeting began as a farewell session for John L. Campbell, who was departing his administrative role, followed by a transition to a policy briefing. President Nixon then met with Charles J. DiBona, George P. Shultz, John D. Ehrlichman, and Brent G. Scowcroft to discuss DiBona's new role as a special consultant on energy. The group analyzed complex domestic and foreign policy issues regarding energy security, including Middle Eastern oil dependence, the political influence of environmental advocacy groups, and the need for a coordinated interagency strategy.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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All right, clap.
Jane, do you want to come and have a seat?
No, I didn't come.
It's very good looking.
I discovered it's going to take a lot of research and a lot of work.
It's going to take a lot of time to come and have a seat.
She'll go out across the canyon, drive right off San Jacinto, send you there, and you'll be able to come and have a seat.
No, Jim, rather, it's going to be good for John to come and have a seat.
Where's your office?
It's in the Arc of Towers.
There's no way to get there.
There is.
Where do you live?
Oh.
We searched the streets.
He's got back roads all the way down.
He didn't do all the events.
He didn't do that.
Well, he did.
He did.
So it's a great solution.
Good.
We can always stay in the century.
Across the street.
Run out and renew old times.
I hope so.
It seems like we're leaving early on.
No.
We're out there.
I hope so.
You know, Jonathan, he has a good one.
Great.
Great.
It's on the street.
That's all right.
Put a thing on the mirror that says, meal service 24 hours across the street.
Whatever the order for your address is.
A little California chef.
Jane Dory.
You know, we get to buy a room that's about 8 by 10.
Not bad.
That's better than we usually get.
He's running a two-drive moving van.
How do they make their moves?
Mr. President.
Hi, how are you?
Nice to see you.
James Hamill.
And John Campbell.
John Campbell, the SRA, is leaving the household.
It's about time.
You have to take off.
Well, I'm going to reverse the tax dollar situation.
Not enough.
I'm going to start paying taxes.
Why don't we get a couple of pictures, John, of one of you together.
I would have cried out this way.
It's been a pleasure.
Everybody else, you're a great show host.
You're a great show host.
You've done a great deal for us.
Yeah, well, we appreciate it.
Always.
Come on, give him a push.
He's having a present.
You realize I met you, right?
Oh, I heard.
Your father told me all about it.
Yeah.
I'm out of time.
I came for that.
Just to be here.
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much.
It's your memory of the...
pictures and so forth.
Or a little bit.
Or a little bit.
Or a little bit.
Or a little bit.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
That's right.
I pay any credit I can get.
Good to see you.
Thank you.
I think it's a long time since Finch, isn't it?
Yes.
But these four years have been better than Finch's.
Oh, God, yes.
or the committee that he's going to work for.
What was the situation with regard to ?
I have no idea.
We tried to check with Whitaker and didn't find out.
Can I bring him right in?
Yeah, just outside.
How are you?
Good to see you.
Sit down here.
I'm going to cut the tape now.
This is a very important and exciting field.
I want you to be willing to sweat a little bit tonight.
I want you to be able to recognize all the scientists that have been there in the past.
I was thinking, for example, of the idea that you expressed the best thing for us.
keep our orders, grow as much as you could in the rest of the world, which would make a lot of sense.
Of course, the problem that is, apart from the political problems that migrates here, is that when the socialists in the rest of the world, as they are in the meetings, are so subject to being cut off by, we've got to have some options in case they are cut off.
The present situation in all those countries is bad in Iran.
Saudi Arabia could have busted it loose.
The Gulf States could have...
And he said, we ought to let our mob folks down in Louisiana drill better, rather than buy them from them A-Rabs.
You know, he had to talk to them, too.
And he said, we don't know what you're going to do until we decide.
Because we find everybody's got an idea about them.
About them, one of the most responsible fellows in the city was Jackson.
Thank you.
That's why we had to pull it away from all of them.
They all must be literate, but none of them can.
You're setting up this specialty.
So whatever you may have learned, you may have looked at it.
You've got to unlearn how you know about discipline.
Decide what's right and everybody fall into it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
but the literacy of that guy is probably reducing one's growth.
Sure, sure.
I'm certainly aware of this problem you raised and it's sensitive to the political and international issues.
Oh, it's very important.
It's an addition to the cabinet.
I actually saw that.
I'm thinking of some of the others.
David, for example, has good understanding.
Conway is getting a copy of the paper today.
At some point I'm sure you'll have a meeting.
where the outsiders sit in.
I don't think too big of a group do where they get in.
They might have some ideas that are very worthwhile.
We've all been seeing that more or less on an individual basis.
They all come at you, you know, simply.
That's right.
They all have ideas and some of them may not be written down like the one I mentioned.
Conley's idea, of course, he believes that we as a major consumer, the best market,
are in a bad position if the producer, not only the producer, but has the tankers.
And so he says, as a consumer, he says, we ought to have the tankers on time.
We get the money and all that sort of thing.
But he's probably got a good point, but it's
Dr. was responding with Russell Long when he was here.
And it isn't in your plan at the moment, I understand, to purchase the building.
Is it?
It is not.
It seems to me that one of the things that we have in more or less the forest, there are some things that we feel reasonably confident about.
And there are other things that look promising but which really aren't adequately.
thought through at this point, and in a sense the task is to segregate out those things that we can't feel reasonably sure about and get them forward and suggest some of these other things in a message that you might send, but not sort of jump to conclusions before we're really ready.
I think that's
One of the dangers that we have to watch out for.
There's always a temptation to say, well, gee, we've got a big problem.
We'd better decide something and maybe do the wrong thing.
All the things we've had around here, this is the one that is more fast.
It's more if you're related with other problems than anything I've seen in just a few days.
Cross lines and just won't quit.
I don't question that at all.
foreign policy aspects.
I mean, the colony, for example, feels very strong.
It would go hell-bent and get the Russians in a deal.
But that relates to the NSD group is concerned about getting into the Russians for a variety of reasons, if not the least of which might be how the Chinese would deal.
They're concerned about how much we want the Japanese in the deal from a foreign policy standpoint.
The Japanese, when you mention them, our bidders, they hope that the Middle East thing cracks and that our companies lose their hold because they're right in there with a lot of our dollars.
They're heading against us.
Well, another thing, of course, if you go overriding the circuit dams, the environmentalists, I mean, the nutheads of the environmentalists, there's some good ones and there's some ones that are not so good, but they wouldn't be anything.
They should go back to it.
But when it comes to the nuclear, forget it.
They want that oil, shale, all that.
It's spoiling the mountains, it's spoiling it.
And so, all in all, you gotta let that in the deal, too.
I think you gotta, I think you'd have to, I suppose you've got training in this field.
just keep it peripheral in the sense that he ought to have an input so that you know what the problem is.
But ahead of energy, ahead of the environment, must come the energy.
Just the location of oil refineries.
Well, when you look at the Alaskan pipeline, of course, which there's conversation about yesterday, well, that's basically the damn environment that's throwing it out, right?
What is it, do we separate it out before we get into the city?
Well, we don't know.
We just don't know.
It's in litigation.
You can't go ahead with that litigation?
Well, we go ahead with the litigation as fast as we can, but you can't, you couldn't move on it.
You can't move around it.
That's an associated problem.
It's one that Jackson's going to be a lot of help on.
He has good credentials in that area.
And he's sensitive to the problem.
Well, anyway, we wish you well.
Don't believe a thing these three guys say.
They're all special.

NARA Description

On February 8, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, John L. Campbell, John D. Ehrlichman, Kenneth R. Cole, Jr., White House photographer, Jane Campbell, Charles J. DiBona, George P. Shultz, and Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:21 pm to 2:33 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 853-014 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 853-14

Date: February 8, 1973
Time: Unknown between 1:21 pm and 2:33 pm
Location: Oval Office

Stephen B. Bull met with John L. Campbell, Jane Campbell John D. Ehrlichman, and Kenneth R.
Cole, Jr.; the White House photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

       California
              -House
              -Campbell’s office
                     -Committee
              -Food
              -New job
                     -Start date
                     -Los Angeles

The President entered at 2:15 pm.
                                              -38-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                            Conversation No. 853-14 (cont’d)

       Taxes

       [Photograph session]

       Campbell's work with the administration

       Campbell's new job and residence in California

       Presidential gifts
              -Pin
              -Ash tray

       Campbell’s appreciation

       Robert H. Finch
              -Compared to President’s term in office

The Campbells and Cole left 2:21 p.m.

       President’s schedule
              -Meeting
                      -Charles J. DiBona
                      -George P. Shultz
                      -Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft
                      -Henry A. Kissinger

       Rogers C. B. Morton
              -John C. Whitaker

       President’s schedule
              -Meeting with DiBona

DiBona, Shultz, John D. Ehrlichman, and Scowcroft entered at 2:23 pm; the White House
photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

       Greetings
                                       -39-

                NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                       Conversation No. 853-14 (cont’d)

DiBona’s job as special consultant on energy
      -Pay
      -Importance
      -Foreign policy and political problems

Energy
         -Oil
                -Socialists [?]
                -Threat of cutoff from Middle East
                        -US options
                -Middle East
                        -Iran
                        -Saudi Arabia
                        -Gulf States
         -Russell B. Long
                -Domestic production
                        -Louisiana
                -Conversations with DiBona
         -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
                -Knowledge
         -Cabinet
                -Sensitivity to issue
                -Interior Department
                -State Department
                -Defense Department
                -Treasury Department

DiBona’s job
      -Naval Academy
      -Political sensitivities
              -Previous Selective Service position
                      -Favors
      -Outside advice
              -John B. Connally
                      -Reliability
                      -Balance between private and public interests
              -Dr. Edward E. David, Jr.
              -Dr. H. Guyford Stever
                                       -40-

             NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                       Conversation No. 853-14 (cont’d)

                       -National Science Foundation [NSF]
         -Connally
                -Option paper
         -Meeting with outsiders
                -Ideas
                -Individual meetings

Energy
         -Connally
                 -US oil markets
                        -Tankers
                 -US as consumer
                        -US tanker fleet
         -Long
                 -Meeting with President and Shultz
         -DiBona’s plan
                 -Tankers
         -Oil problems
                 -Administration responses
                        -Interrelated problems
                 -Foreign policy aspects
                        -Connally
                        -National Security Council [NSC] concerns
                                -Soviet Union
                                -People’s Republic of China [PRC]
                                -Japan
                        -Japan
                                -Middle East concerns
                                        -Companies

Environmentalists
       -Problems
       -Opposition to nuclear power
       -Shale oil mining
               -Wyoming
       -Russell E. Train
               -Involvement
       -Oil refinery location
                                                -41-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                           Conversation No. 853-14 (cont’d)

               -Alaska pipeline
                      -Environmental opposition
                      -Litigation
                      -Jackson
                              -Help for administration
                              -Credentials

       DiBona
             -Jobs
                       -Selective Service
                               -Curtis W. Tarr
                       -New job
                               -Special interests

       New job

DiBona, et al., left at 2:33 pm.

Also recorded on February 8, 1973

  • 853-013 1:19 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:19 pm and 1:21 pm.
  • 409-018 1:28 PM · 33 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Zosimo Monson met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:28 pm and 1:49 pm.
  • 409-021 1:28 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:28 pm and 1:49 pm.
  • 043-053 1:49 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 1:49 pm.
  • 409-019 1:49 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 1:49 pm.
  • 043-054 1:50 PM · 13 sec — Charles W. Colson and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:50 pm and 2:15 pm.
  • 043-055 1:50 PM · 1 min — Charles W. Colson and W. Richard Howard talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:50 pm and 2:15 pm.
  • 409-020 1:50 PM · 21 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, unknown person(s), and W. Richard Howard met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 1:50 pm to 2:15 pm.

All 38 conversations from February 8, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 853-014, February 8, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/853-014 (accessed October 21, 2026).