On February 13, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, Manolo Sanchez, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:48 am to 10:52 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 854-017 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I think so, Mr. President.
Sorry, I missed your call last night.
I was being lobbied.
Oh, yes.
Tomorrow.
Yes, sir.
Tomorrow, I don't know yet what I want to do.
Weather's a little uncertain tomorrow.
Yeah, what's your first stop?
I'll be going to London for two days, really, just to get used to the time change.
All right, good.
Rest a little bit.
Where do you stay there?
We'll be staying at the residence with the Anabreeks.
Oh, good.
Then we're going to Moscow Saturday, which gives us a weekend to see a little bit of the city.
We'll be in Moscow for a week.
No, one in Greve for two days.
Moscow for three.
And then back to Bucharest.
Right, right.
I don't want to see the ambassador, do you?
Yes, sir.
Yes, he is.
I get it.
They're very careful about it.
Let me see where it is.
As far as people are concerned, it's just people.
You're talking about the other way of talking to people.
But the rest is a little freer.
I mean, it is freer in a way, but the Romanians are so unrestrained about the tolls, also, that they'll break out.
And then we go back to Israel.
Yes, sir?
That's, well, you know, it's an interesting phenomenon.
I've never been particularly, we all try to not be prejudiced.
I've always, I've always, I've always had a little prejudice.
I'm not prejudiced in the sense that it's really a problem.
I just recognize it.
You know, all people have certain traits.
The Jews have certain traits.
The Irish have certain.
Very good.
For example, the Irish can't drink.
They always have to come out of the Irish because they get meat.
Virtually every Irish I know gets meat when he drinks.
You know, that's a sort of a natural trait.
Particularly the real Irish.
And they do various different things.
The Italians, of course, just don't have their heads screwed on them.
They're wonderful people.
You know, each group has things that we do like and we don't like.
And the Jews have just a very aggressive, abrasive, unconscious personality.
But they're just a hell of a group of able people.
So you've got to buy a little of that in order to get there.
Well, I distinguish the COVID-19.
I distinguish the Jews, of course, from the Israelis.
The Israelis, I've always admired them because of this.
And the fact that...
Yes, you know, it's hard to find.
I didn't notice.
I haven't noticed any Jewish names that aren't coming back and getting on any of the lists.
Because, I don't know how they'll get away, but, you know, there are some that's kind of... Well, they don't go out and fly airplanes.
That's one thing.
They go out and fly airplanes.
Well, they always managed to get themselves a desk job, or deferred, or a car.
I would imagine if you were to look at the Canadian-Swedish contenders, they were very much a disproportionate group of Jewish.
They deserved it.
Oh, hell yes.
Oh, my God.
Well, these interviews you see on television, half of them are Jews, I'm sure of it.
Yeah.
That's why they didn't have the Swedish soldiers.
Well, anyway, let me ask you a couple of things before we go.
I was not agreeing to do something today that I guess, why do you think these guys, Marty Schramm, PRB, why they didn't continue to whack on that?
Oh, that Cronkite interview, Mr. President, is that... Well, worse than that, I sent you in the transcript of that before it got into this.
It'll be somewhere in your reading material.
It is the most incredible transcript I have ever read in my life.
I mean, he describes the evil influence of this administration
And he talks about how we're intimidating advertisers and trying to get advertisers not to advertise.
I saw that.
Hey, that's correct.
What the heck was he talking about?
He talked about seeing ghosts under the bed.
What, advertisers?
No, no, no.
You don't have any potential to see these?
No, no.
But, you see, that's just creating a complete red herring.
And that shows you how dishonest the man is.
I mean, he basically is a dishonest person.
What do you think, though, about their squealing about that?
What's the struggle?
You heard him.
Yeah.
If there's any question that you heard from them, they are going to cross the point there, sir.
I mean, did they, what did they say, though?
They're all squealing about them.
I'm convinced that.
You have the 25%, Mr. President, who are just confirmed of Nixon haters and will never get to them.
You have the big flock in the middle that are with us and are very happy and very content.
And then you have 25% on the right who, when a Marty Schramm or a Cronkite says something like that, they just swept the walls.
They're fighting that.
That's the kind of mail that we see when you hit a party.
TRB ever says that before a call?
I don't know who TRB is.
I don't see that it serves the hull on purpose.
They don't put the bow .
I think our people are encouraging themselves a little too much with the Republican interests.
And on the other side, the National League.
Either way, either of those are relevant.
Or human events.
It's always in there.
It isn't very relevant to them.
What really is relevant is, of course, these are the hard times of Washington, but what has gotten them wrong, because they feel, even at the other end of this, sure, it needs a view of the elements, if you can, it needs a view of the left, but look, even they, they're so far out of step, John, that I just don't, I apologize for reminding you.
No, you're not wrong.
That's why they, I mean, they run the Abronski Show.
Well, I suppose that tells you what the Abronski Show is.
It is so terribly overboard by us that I don't think it's worth the three days advantage that comes from this period.
The only advantage to the agronomists was the election.
Well, it tells you what the mindset of the goddamn liberal Washington press corps is, and you know what tack they're on when you watch that.
Now, some of us— What do you know about the—
Well, religious people feel they forgive.
And that is the greatest weakness of the Catholic Church is the confession of sin.
You can do anything as long as you confess.
That's right.
To me, that's the, you know, there's a lot I admire about Catholicism, because it has certain disciplines to it, but that's one of the weaknesses.
Yeah, and you've already done that.
Because you've got the origin of it.
You're solving yourself.
Totally.
Encouraging yourself to listen.
No, actually, I was just curious.
Because, you know, you find people out here who say, you know, you're going to be very conservative or apologetic.
Would you agree?
No, the American people want you to be strong.
I think so.
Oh, I think that, I think November, though, was that, I think the, I think our own
reading of the country is correct, we wouldn't be sitting here today if it weren't correct.
If you had taken the soft line, we wouldn't have the kind of majority we have.
You know, you talk about impact on the public.
When you get the kind of stuff we had yesterday, the Associated Press wife of God Bless America, Ann Nixon, and what those guys were saying, and the emotional impact of that yesterday,
I realize that that was not covered by the prime time.
I don't know if my father put it in the prime time.
No, it's a...
They hold out their specials, but they'll make it a special.
They should.
That was some of the most emotional.
You could possibly...
They could take that two hours, you know what I mean?
Perkins of NBC was very good.
That's when I saw him.
But you could cut that to a half hour and put on all I could.
And, of course, the one that called me, the great Ace.
They are amazing, man.
You come over there, you can see they were washed out of the tire.
They stood so straight, and they saluted.
Oh, yeah, they saluted it.
This is Galloway, Senator, her husband called and said, you know, the president wants to be a wonderful man.
He said that he's, because she's coming back in a couple of years, he said he's going to have to take it all on the opposition.
He, to the end, should still have done what was necessary to get us back.
Those guys, with probably very few exceptions,
I think that story is getting through a bit now on the bombing, don't you?
Yeah, I think the people, uh, the people understand that.
And I don't think the, uh, people are right.
Yeah, yeah.
Why don't you admit it, you know?
One or two a little angry that, uh, we're not, we're not saying it more, more, uh, vociferously.
I noticed the Air Force
Propaganda machine is working now on this.
The Air Force.
Of course it did.
Yeah.
It was worth $1,600 or $1,700.
Yes, sir.
You should have done it four years ago.
That's right.
That's right.
There's no question.
The American people know that.
And they want to believe it.
But all the D.O.W.
stories, I think, is one of the great stories.
As a matter of fact, I really believe that some cities ought to treat them as heroes.
They ought to have a different grade for them.
That'll knock the shit out of them.
You see, uh, uh, I was, I was saying, uh, early on, when, uh, Ligercan reported me that, uh,
time was saying it because the thing that would have killed them was to have you
embraced by these guys.
And they would have, I mean, they would have saluted you, but they would have also thrown that out there.
The Colonel called me.
Oh, sure.
I called him.
No.
He called me.
He asked me.
He said, I've asked the D.C. as a man.
I mean, the A.C. guy that's the senior, all of them.
He said, they haven't all been.
Thank you for saying we'd like the person to come and shake your hand.
I think it was a chill time.
What's powerful, powerful stuff, Mr. President.
And I will say for the networks, I didn't
I heard it.
Oh, hell, it was 17, 18, 19 minutes of the news last night.
And it was tremendous stuff.
I don't imagine there were many people watching that that weren't choked up.
You couldn't help it.
Those guys were so great.
Boy, what a thing to go through.
Think of it for their country.
They did what they were believed in.
That's really, yesterday was really the end of the war.
And yesterday was the men coming on for a day parade.
That's right.
In today's world.
In today's world.
What more could you have?
That's the way it's done, I'm telling you.
What more could you have than that beautiful airplane coming up and these guys coming down the ramp and the very attractive...
They're wise.
Sure.
Tremendous.
Today's show this morning had the conversations between the husband and wife.
Great, great emotional impact.
But I must say that those fellas...
See, that shows you how people really feel.
Those folks came out, and they were, God bless them, the country and you.
I was amazed when I saw that, because God knows we, there's no reason to say that, but there was some way they must have gotten the bird in the plane or something like that.
No, I think what they feel is that you got them out the way they wanted to get out.
Of course they wanted to get out any way they could.
You can't blame anybody who's in that situation.
But you got them out as heroes instead of as
coming out of heaven for the sake of our prisoners.
And I suppose they had come back that way based on the Cooper Church or Mansfield or Jefferson.
And they would have come back to a country defeated.
At least there's a sense of hope and pride about them.
I mean, there's a hell of a lot of pride.
I think it's more than a simpility.
Yeah, I mean, we all know, as I said, I'm speaking even looking at the fragility of the peace in the future, the fragility of South Vietnam's future.
And my little boss in Cambodia said to God, man, he's fragile.
But there's a chance.
That's all we can do.
We can't save everybody.
We can surely, we've sure given them a chance that they had never had before.
Well, that's right.
And those guys in the... Oh, there was some black piece of them.
Of course, the other thing, Mr. President, you know, it would be pretty lonely over there in one of those camps.
And they might well have thought that if we pulled out, they would never get out.
But a lot of those guys, we didn't know they were prisoners.
You know, the MIAs in particular.
How did they know they'd ever get out except this way?
And that's why they're praising you.
They know the Oriental mentality and the disregard for human life.
That's a point that Bill Anderson of the Chicago Tribune was making yesterday.
He said, hell.
On television?
No, just talking to him.
Talking to him.
He was writing it.
And he just said, hell, McGovern, these guys wouldn't be coming back.
He wrote this?
He was writing.
He told me he was writing it.
He came in to see me.
And he just said, because he's a great royalist, as you know, he said, with McGovern, he said, hell, McGovern, he's so afraid to
He said, they're back because of the president, because you guys hung in.
It's true.
I mean, those guys know that.
That's why they're—that's why you got that kind of a reaction.
But my God, that you—you can write volumes of hate out of TRB and— Artie Schramm.
Artie Schramm and Dan Orber.
And nothing, nothing compares to that.
Nothing.
I—that's— Yes, sir.
I guess what they had to do was paint it, use that paint.
You know, he said, that's maybe a picture too, but that's probably it.
And that'll do it for me.
It's a hell of a picture, of course, and it's expression.
Oh, it is a man, thanks, sir.
Sure.
God bless America and next time.
And what they were all saying is, we thank the country for today.
My workshop.
Right.
And the other picture, that's all Alvarez, eight years.
The snappy salute.
Oh, God.
Oh, I think the character he showed me, that is what the country needs to see.
That's right.
His character, his courage.
I saw that.
Do you agree?
I do.
I think when you, when the time comes, if anybody wants to come back, and these guys don't want to come back.
Yeah, most of them won't.
If they want to come back.
They're not going to want to face other people.
Well, of course.
They should.
They're, you know, these bastards are barred from life.
Well, they see this.
Yeah.
But the, you know, if anyone wants to come back, if they can make a case of insanity or... Oh, not insanity or their mother is sick.
hardship pieces on the ends, every one of them.
Or he was very, very young, or somebody had beaten the hell out of him, so he deserted, or he didn't know the law, or I don't know.
But I think the money, about a third of these are tuition.
I think three, two-thirds of them are wealthier families.
Would you agree?
Yes, sir.
I don't think any of them are just the poor government, hard-hat types.
The line that the
that I think we want to take also.
I've got Rudy working on this for us, and I did a little article on it, so I asked you.
The line is really to criticize those who encourage them to plead.
Well, I think the quotes, I think the quotes, which you could get your last, just I'm wondering if Rudy had something to dig up.
Lindsey and others, I think, have said the real heroes are.
I won't.
I think I'd like to see those three or four quotes.
Lindsey said that in Philadelphia.
Or did he say it to somebody else in the government?
No, no, no.
Lindsey said it.
My government said it to me.
Muskie said it.
Muskie said that the, I have real feeling for those who are playing across the Canadian border, and they may be the real heroes of the war.
Well, that's got to really, that's got to be cranked right down there.
Well, that's in the article.
The question is, the real question is the strategy here as to whether, uh, whether, uh, what you say about, uh, on the affiliation and so forth, as to whether, whether we are needlessly overwhelming in the day that, uh, you know, the, uh, the distance here.
No, sir.
You're not promoted.
Well, they don't want to talk about the issue at all.
They just want to start hammering us into something else.
Is that right?
Yes.
They'd like to get us off the issue.
You think so?
Yes.
There's no profit to the does in talking about amnesty.
About the war?
About the war, period.
I mean, just put that aside now, and let's talk about the building hospitals and the... And let's talk about housing.
to the playing on the heartstrings on the domestic issues.
No, they want to get off of this issue in the worst damn way.
We shouldn't let them off.
It shouldn't.
The fact that it's kept contentious is not divisive.
The most divisive thing you could do would be to dishonor these guys by saying, we're going to treat the Canadians, the deserters of Canada, the same way we treated these folks long ago.
You talk about dividing the country.
In the wake of this kind of an emotional impact on this country, if you would have shown any leniency to a deserter or a draft editor, that's divisive.
I didn't see any of them taking him on for, you know, for taking the people on the right.
Certainly, I'm sure there were a lot of people who did take him on.
You know, they praised him.
Wasn't that great?
That's got to say, he's taking these people on, right?
That's the double standard.
How unifying was Kennedy?
Now you can imagine, basically, Johnson tried to get his own consensus.
Wait, but Kennedy, for Christ's sake, did he ever invite us to the White House?
Did he ever do anything about it?
Not really.
He pledged to have a code.
Sure did.
Yeah, and he was sharp with the attack, and so was Johnson, sharp with the attack.
Eisenhower wasn't even fired.
I guess they want me to be the same way, but you know, basically, they have no respect for Eisenhower.
As a man, as a world leader, as a decent man, yes, they're respecting him.
But not for his leadership.
They call him a weak president, which is the worst callback.
That's right.
No, but what you said, what's driving me so as well, Mr. President, is they see the truth.
You are really bringing about a fundamental shift in the political attitudes in this country, and that's
You're destroying what they believe in.
And they have to react that way.
They have to.
It wouldn't matter what you talk about.
They've got to find a point of attack.
Or if you don't talk about anything, they'll attack that.
Or if you go out and hit them hard, they'll attack that.
They just have to.
They have to.
Also, they know where they stand with us.
And they know they're not going to get back in.
Not in three years.
I'd say in four years.
Not then, if we do it right.
No.
No.
Well, anyway, Reagan's going to be a candidate.
I hear that.
Yep.
Did he tell you that yesterday?
No.
He started making speeches around the country, encouraging funds to finance the agency, just trying to involve people thinking the right thing on the issue for the country.
Now he's got the bug, he's going to go, Rockefeller's going to go, there's two in the rain, and Percy makes three.
Seriously, you've got four right now.
If Colin goes, do you think he will?
That would really mess up.
He realizes what Reagan will do.
Ray will draw the line.
Yeah.
Connelly will take the siren.
And the South.
The South, I don't think there will be any question of the South taking Connelly over Ray.
Would you agree?
It'll divide up.
There'll be... Oh yeah, there'll be some... Oh, I speak to the nomination, right?
And the nomination held on J.K. And it was the Southern Republic that was more partisan than the Northern Republic.
That's what I think about it.
I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree.
I mean, I'm speaking about the election.
The election, okay, I'll turn it out.
I don't know if you would have decided that.
It was questioned even better than that.
Robbie even raised curiously with God to mention it.
Can you really imagine him sitting here?
I can imagine.
Yeah, I can imagine.
You can imagine that, right?
He had a great rockiness.
But you know, he was too old.
Great, most younger.
But you know, I know what age he was.
I know how much energy everybody's got.
Rock and roll.
Rock and roll got lots of energy.
But four years, for God's sakes.
It's both a B-65, 66 years old, regular B-65, and a 66, Rockefeller B-66, 57.
Too old.
She's 20.
Too old.
Much too old.
Too old in this world we live in.
Yeah.
Conroe's at the out of limits, so he'll be 57.
Both of them are at the out of limits.
Action.
It's a...
It's I was 55 when I ran.
I don't know.
I don't want to.
I'm not going to get into it.
I'm just going to talk about it.
I'm not going to screw around with this.
It is a problem.
And I said, I don't want this.
So I'm going to interview Chuck Schultz.
uh, the Brennan Nation people, uh, and, uh, is, is, is, it seems as if all of us are really saying, oh, most of these individuals are, you know, they just can't see these guys and these things.
Is that the problem?
That's the problem.
I did that in Manhattan.
No, sir.
No.
Hell no.
Well, the undersecretary of Trump, Schultz, he said, isn't liable on record.
Schultz isn't the greatest speaker.
He only picks some very good, but I mean, in terms of... Yeah, but his standards are different, Mr. President.
He has a different kind of person.
You know, it's very important that...
He's doing all the right things.
They don't impress Schultz the right way.
For example, he put out an order that there'll be no promotions in the department above GS-11 without his personal approval.
God damn it, that's what we needed over there to get control of that.
Now Schultz says that's unmanageable.
You can't do that.
Well, it's not too bad.
But you see, if he gets a shot across the valley, you realize that.
They'll all be watching themselves.
And that's what they're doing.
And there hasn't been a single one of them who has.
They're scared to death of running.
And he'll run that place himself.
I don't worry about Pete.
Just give him a few of his... Let him get his people that he's comfortable working with.
That's the most important thing.
His instincts are right.
He's smart as hell.
No, you should, Mr. President.
You should come here and go with those fellows and say, I'm getting this now, and so forth and so on.
And Irving, I'm going to give him a call, too, because he's a managerial type.
For other reasons, it shows.
He has to deal with these people.
The one parting word that I'd like to leave with you, Mr. President, and I will be just as outspoken as I...
usually am at 11.30, is, for God's sake, let's get people with political loyalties demonstrated.
And we mustn't make that mistake.
I mean, there are competent people who are also politically loyal.
They told me that the fellow Larson, you know, from Interior, was politically loyal.
Well, I had him over and interviewed him.
I said, what's been your background in politics?
None.
How did you get with the administration?
Well, I came here to Washington, and I met a friend of mine who introduced me to Malik.
The guy has never been in politics.
The guy has never had any political experience.
He's the one for, uh— IRS.
After 20 minutes, I knew goddamn well what I had on my hands was a systems analyst.
Maxim R. Type.
He's over here.
The Department of Interior in the systems analysis job.
We could be—I, you know, I've just thrown up all sorts of— We got that.
What else have we got, then?
Oh, we— No, we've got some other people.
We've got the—
a lawyer out in Cincinnati, Don Alexander, who's a good, tough, hard-rock Republican.
We've got people.
The problem is, I don't think I can socialize.
George just got summoned.
They're looking at Webster for Undersecretary of Commerce.
He'd be damn good over there.
Not as sensitive a guy, but... That's all right, though.
God damn it.
But Dent needs a strong man.
Well, Dent does.
He needs a strong man.
He's a very wonderful, kind man.
But I can see that he needs a gunfighter over there, because Congress can do some things, and I don't.
You tell him to take that job.
Well... Webster takes the gun, which is a lot of removing and other measures that he wants to serve.
You know what I mean?
It gets him cleaned up.
Exactly.
Because he's tired badly right now with all the goddamn lips and just cutting into ribbons.
Yes.
And Congress, if you don't...
I wouldn't make sense, but I'm talking about that, and I kind of like the idea right now.
Well, that kind of gets it off of Schultz's back, and Schultz probably did a liberal Democrat.
No, he doesn't.
Schultz means well.
He means absolutely well.
He doesn't really have any conception.
He still doesn't believe that the Bureau of Labor Statistics could make those figures.
I said, George.
I said, not George.
How could the figures drop in two months from here?
Five.
Five.
Five.
Five.
How could it, Chuck?
No way.
It didn't drop.
No way.
I noticed this morning that lawyers are complaining about labor shortages and the rest.
Yes, sir.
Ray, they told me yesterday that looking at the one that has real jobs.
Yes, sir.
The indexes.
Something must be good on our indexes.
Indexes on our indexes.
I know they're feeling that the rollouts and the rest are saying everybody's gloomy about the economy.
But I think that's the language again.
Yes, sir.
Well, that's Wall Street had it so often.
Those guys take their profit and they trade and they make money when the market's going up and they make money when it's going down.
They never make any money when it's standing straight.
No.
Well, the prospect of devaluation, of course.
They regard that as foolish.
Well, anyway, let's come to the other candidate question you needed in there.
Would you keep Gray?
Yes, sir.
I wouldn't ask.
No.
You'd be sending to the Senate for confirmation?
Yep, I would.
Why?
Well, because, first of all, I'd back him up with a very strong deputy.
Because I think if you took Gray out now, with all of the
turmoil in the bureau.
I mean, everything that's going on in that bureau is being leaked out.
Yeah, well, how can we show them?
By creating certainty.
See, I'm afraid one of the problems over there is if there isn't anybody who knows they're in charge.
Who is it that you've got in mind?
Well, I've suggested a phone number.
Bill Sullivan is a...
They say he's the first one to not grab a call.
Oh, yeah.
He's not over yet.
Well, he was our man.
Al Haig has called me yesterday and said, Jesus, get Sullivan back in there.
Haig is very high on Sullivan.
I don't know Sullivan, but I know so many people who do, who think highly of him.
And those are all the people I know.
I don't think so.
Yeah, I think in a way it is, and you might want to move Gray at the end of the year, but I'd get through this year without rocking that boat, and I would try to get him.
Okay, for him, Gray is, after all, Gray is loyal to you.
So give him the strength to back him up with some
and make sure he understands what he has to do.
I mean, they're—the most important thing over there is to be goddamn sure that that department and that bureau understand that we've got enough troubles with the Hill without creating any more for ourselves.
Right.
And this is a partisan game.
This is no longer law enforcement or investigation.
This is partisan— Sure.
What do you mean?
What a game.
What a game.
I read about this in the press.
There was an urban college.
Mr. Silver, he was shit.
Urban.
Goddamn racist.
Sure.
You know what I mean?
Hysterical.
But they're going to make a, they'll have a political circus.
But it is the...
Remember how they built up that poor, jackass, Ralph Landry?
Yeah.
Richard McCartney.
Building up was a great thing.
Well, he's an idiot.
Well, yeah.
He was a sweet guy, Ralph Landry.
Well, anyway, that's that.
Let's put it on the water.
I've got a little less weight on it.
Well, the only thing you can do.
That's what I mean.
I don't think there's any choice but to go up there and tough it through.
And I do think we have to be very, very hard-nosed with that committee.
And if they want Haldeman, Ehrlichman,
I'm sure they will.
We have to limit the areas that they're going to go into.
Well, I'm sure the best thing there is to have lower people like Chapin and Strawn and the rest of the allies that we're talking about, Chapin and Strawn and the rest, let them have that.
And, uh, but in terms of the people that are directly advisors to the president, they say they can do a hundred interrogatories without having, uh, Herbert and the leading majority, the two council majority minority leaders do a hundred interrogatories, but don't vote there on television.
How does that sound to you as a possible compromise?
I think it's a good compromise.
Uh, there's a real, you know...
He may not, he may not accept it, but I don't think, I thought that maybe you ought to just, just pardon and say no one can go.
I'm afraid that that gives an appearance of a total cover-up, which would bother me.
You know, I should just say, no, you can't have strong, you can't have, you know, that is just the way it is.
Anybody, you might give them some others.
I don't know.
I mean, maybe we can think about it.
I can't give them the talk if I used to testify.
Is that a great account?
Yes, it is.
It's a great account, though.
Well, you know the difficulty with it, Mr. President.
I've been thinking about this over the weekend, and I'm trying to talk it through with one of my prospective law partners.
He's a brilliant, brilliant driver.
And his point was, which I thought was a goddamn good one, he said, you can't go at all.
He said, there's nothing in the facts.
of the Watergate or Segretti that you had any involvement in at all.
But they're going to start asking you other questions.
And they're going to come in.
Well, something that I may not even be thinking about right now.
But in the campaign, sure.
Or in the pre-campaign period.
And things that have not a damn thing to do with Watergate or Segretti, but
Yeah, that's right.
But why should one—you know, that's an area where you don't—you don't know where to draw the line.
You can't be a little bit pregnant, and— Well, we'll just have to face that.
At least I'm not going to cover that.
How across that bridge do we get to it now?
I think you're right in terms of trying to limit those who have had direct access to you, because that creates a problem.
I would, uh...
But even there, he makes it that hard.
I don't think he could come to a vote in the sense that the chamber is a strong level.
I don't think I could go that low.
No, and I don't think you need to.
I'd say you're going to go.
Sure.
That doesn't make any difference.
Let him do it.
And let him take the whole damn committee apparatus.
Of course, the other point, which I'm going to mention to all of you before I take off, is that if
Whoever did board our Watergate, if it's going to come out in the hearings, for God's sake, let it out.
Oh, no.
Please get rid of it now.
Take our losses.
Well, who the hell do you think did?
Mitchell.
He can't do it.
He'll perjure himself.
He won't get rid of it.
That's the problem.
Magruder.
I know Magruder.
Well, he's perjured himself, isn't he?
What do you say then?
Let's take our losses to the help of a step forward and say, keep on playing.
You've got seven, let eight.
I mean, of course, he directed it, but what do you have in mind?
I mean, for that, I mean, you can't raise each other, but you have somebody in mind.
No, I, well, you see, I— What do you say?
Well, I, this must have occurred.
I did not realize it at the time I read that.
Yeah.
Mitchell seems to have stormed all the way up to this point.
I don't know what he said.
Well, he's, you know, John has got one of those marvelous memories that I don't know, I don't remember what was said.
I haven't seen anything yet related to this whole incident that has not come out one way or another and it's just that slow painful process of pulling it out piece by piece.
Well, when I think about water people, that's the whole point.
They want to do this kind of madness investigation, and that's it.
Unless one of the seven of us reacts and talks, that's the problem.
That should have an end.
We have an end.
But then the question is, as far as the seven, I think the only ones that we know, 100 of those, I imagine, I imagine we'll even know.
McCord?
My prospective partner, who knows Sirica very, very well and has tried many cases in front of Sirica, what he thinks Sirica will do at the critical moment is call in one of them and say, okay, you don't go to jail, but you've got to tell me everything you know and make a deal with him before he sentences you.
Would they accept it?
I don't think Hunt would.
You don't?
No.
I really don't.
I mean, I think he's a...
He's a traitor.
Yeah.
He's too much of a believer.
On the other hand, who knows?
You know, he's lost his wife, which was a great source of strength to him.
He's got four kids.
The problem with Hunt's case is that he has contact with you and Earl and the other men.
But they're not matters that I'm really concerned about.
And so we went and interviewed someone on IPT, but that's perfectly logical with that.
That's what you have a fellow like that available for.
Yeah.
But the whole, the unfortunate part of it, and it's imperative that people here not get bogged down in it.
Yes, right.
The unfortunate part of it is that it is a diversion.
there's no limit to what they can do with it if they want to.
And the reason you have to hardline it with certain people is that there is no limit to what they can do in terms of, well, hell, you know, even arranging the Democrats for Nixon ads.
Yeah, we had some technical violations of the statute.
A few mail-ins that were done by different committees outside of here.
Yeah, those were technical violations of the statute.
I don't want to make them into capital cases.
But the problem is that if they could get Berlichman, Haldeman, or Meade to say under oath that we were aware of anything that was a violation of the statute, then they've got a circumstance.
And you have to have a John Mitchell-type memory of her.
My view is always, always that in the case of Haldeman, Rogman, and I, the only three you can probably do this with, that they should be either written interrogatories or appointed a tight line where they list out some highly specific areas.
That's it.
And not beyond that.
And if they try to get beyond that, you just, you sell more or you, or you just don't remember something.
You have to.
Sir, I'm sorry.
Sir, I'm sorry.
Sir, I'm sorry.
Sir, I'm sorry.
But I'll, at 11.30, I'll take the hard one.
I feel, I really... How many people does he have?
Does he have any?
Does he have a wife?
Frank?
The whole place?
He's got to stand with people.
He's got... Who is he?
I don't know.
Well, Carter will come up with a Malik operation.
Malik wants to appoint all assistant secretaries for administration.
He wants them all to be his people.
And Brennan doesn't want that.
And Schultz is worried about the undersecretary.
Either one.
They're both good.
I know the general well.
I'm sure you remember him.
Oh, he did a good job.
He did very well.
I don't think it matters.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think it matters.
Yes, sir.
He can do his job here.
Or he can go over and be his assistant.
That's the other thing.
Well, that's a tough relationship.
But I'll work it out.
Yes, sir.