Conversation 855-010

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Yeah.

Well, I very much appreciate your...

Watergate and so forth.

What was going to happen?

Well, I had a long talk this week.

I had a long talk with Bob about it yesterday.

After we talked.

And then I met last evening for a couple of hours with David Shapiro, who's a truck today in a slanted driveway.

And he gave me a rationale, which he was writing up for John Dean, for invoking him.

executive privilege for all but certain defined areas where individual wrongdoing might be involved.

He believes we're on very, very solid ground if that's the course we want to take.

His analysis of it is that you can't have a confidential, the president cannot have immediate advisors in a confidential relationship unless he is assured that that confidentiality can be preserved, like a law clerk with a judge or a congressional aide.

Makes a very, very good case and expresses it very articulately.

I talked to Fielding, who is Dean's assistant, this morning.

I told her that she could work with him next week, or this week if you want to.

I think it's the only course to take.

argue however uh we would voluntarily make an available for a restricted area negotiating advance clearly divide areas in which

or just when people say, well, this is going on.

My view is that the charge and cover-up and the innuendo and charges that we've done at all are worse than what comes out.

You know, I think you've got to realize that.

I always go back to that.

Second, what really creeped them was that the charge that the administration was trying to cover it up, which the Justice Department did, because they were going to drop the case after they, after we got the badge on them, showing use of that area, not knowing all these facts, of course, and we killed them.

It was the cover-up that hurt, not the fact that this was the only, in my mind.

That's a good question.

This instance is distinguishable in that you have had a very exhaustive investigation.

No one can really cover it up.

I don't want to get the indication that we're afraid of anything.

That's the point.

I think it should be restraining limits, though.

I don't want to see you down there where there are questions of the general election.

They get you into other things.

Nothing to do with this.

That's the point Shapiro made that I thought was most perceptive.

He said, where you have already testified to a grand jury or to the FBI, in that area, you have already exercised a way beyond that now.

uh wanted to do uh create a headline today i could i could ask about one of the local producers nothing to do with watergate nothing to do with the segregation i never heard of him but you could go on a fishing

They had that security set up in the basement of the EOB, which was for a grant.

They were here.

Oh, sure.

And that was perfectly legitimate.

I mean, that's the kind of thing they were hired to do.

investigating the authenticity of the Dita Beard letter.

That was perfectly legitimate.

And I told the FBI that there wasn't anything to hide.

The thing you can't do is you can't get partway pregnant.

You can't start talking about one aspect of a relationship with a White House employee and not another.

What does Shapiro believe?

Shapiro believes that if Mitchell

Well, the point is that he's going to anyway.

The real point is, if he was guilty, and if it's going to come out in the hearings, then don't let it come out in the hearings.

Let's take our own losses ourselves.

Well, that's a very nice thing.

Let's come back again and see what his statement was.

It depends on what John knew.

I don't know what he knew.

For example, I think that he was aware from time to time

Yeah, that's right.

But you see, John doesn't have any privilege.

John doesn't have any immediate relationship to you.

I mean, he was an all-capitalist, and he did have a line of work.

So he doesn't have any privilege.

I was sure it was only analysis, just as a cold-blooded, analytical lawyer.

He's going to have a big explosion on national television.

Here it is.

Those are the two, I guess, that are really the problem.

Well, he had the same problem, of course, if he knew about it.

Well, he didn't.

I'm sure he had, but I know he didn't.

How about me?

You think he did?

John is... John has the most marvellous... Yeah, and convenient memories.

I mean, he can... Yeah.

He doesn't mind his memory or not.

I mean, this concern about Cranky...

My view is that he won't tell the whole story.

My view is that he'd say, all right, I will tell a lot of this, but I think what he would do, frankly, is tell the fiction.

Do you think that's what he would tell?

Yes, sir.

Or the reader.

Well, my view is that he would limit the losses.

He wouldn't go all the way.

No, he wouldn't limit the losses.

I don't think he would come in and say, well, I worked here for Colson on a few weird things, and I worked on this and that and the other thing.

No, because there's not even the...

But he said, I don't think so.

He might do that.

I don't think so.

Normally, I wouldn't question it.

But he's just too much.

It's a tough one.

It's a really tough one.

I don't think you're correct.

But who knows?

I mean, how do you know what goes through the minds of anybody in a situation like this?

God only knows.

Blacks, for example, do it.

None of these guys have weapons, do they?

Yeah.

You know, that's the question.

Murder without a weapon.

That's the travesty of the whole damn thing.

No one was hurt.

It was a stupid thing.

Dumb.

But my God, it isn't like the history of it.

It isn't like the... Why?

In terms of the consequences publicly, it's just... Why is it?

It wasn't the history of it.

That's what we're eating.

We've got to cut our losses.

My losses have to be cut.

The president's losses have got to be cut on the cover of the deal.

Not the Americans, but the Americans.

I'd fight the Americans all the way through.

Well, they did it, and we're wrong.

Period.

But as far as this is concerned, we're not covering up anything.

We're not covering up any problem, but the root of it is that basically he's supposed to bomb.

That's what it is.

I'm supposed to do it.

That's what they would assume, but I mean, that's what some people would assume, but I don't, I think he was divorced publicly well enough in advance of all of this stuff.

No.

No, I don't believe that.

Oh, hell no, I don't think, that's... Yeah, or two courses on, which was the other link, but.

The only thing that could come out is probably that, you know, those people over there were crazy with memoranda.

They wrote everything down.

Or people would use his name.

That happens to me.

That happens to everyone.

And that's another problem.

You can't control who says, well, Colson wants this and that.

I just mean, somebody doesn't know how to use it.

I never did that.

Deliberately.

But a lot of people do do that.

Fortunately, I didn't see it.

I swear to my...

I think the only pitfall, and this is the one that I think I've got everybody...

I think everybody's thinking on the right line.

The only pitfall is the moment you won't put up the Pandora's box in White House, you can lead into 19 other totally irrelevant, crazy ones that would cause daily embarrassment.

My feeling is hard-line in terms of what you are willing to do.

Who the hell is that coming from?

They got this and they're ripping it up.

Who are they getting these stories from?

The Bureau.

The FBI?

It's a question.

The FBI has that memory.

How'd the FBI know?

Well, the FBI would have been sending that information over to Liddy and Hunt.

And every leak we've had, Mr. President, has been out of the Bureau.

That's one of the reasons that when you asked me my opinion yesterday, I said,

I don't know if the Grey is the best man or not, but I... Yeah, certainly.

I'd let him be in there and fire some of the best.

It's an evening suit.

The whole damn... Well, what the hell are we talking about?

There isn't anything that I ever told the Bureau that I haven't seen come out to print.

And, uh, it really does raise questions about the integrity of the Bureau's process.

You have to be a little careful with the...

Well, when Hoover was there, he didn't.

He didn't have it?

He did not.

Oh, no, no.

I had talked to Hoover about all sorts of things.

I talked to Mercury over here.

Well, because they knew that if anybody thought... That's it.

You know, you take the...

I say in the things this morning, make a big thing out of some contribution you receive.

I put sort of siloed voice that all of them would buy about $1,000.

You know, that wasn't the only one.

He wrote off all the loans, which was a direct avoidance of the statute.

Not an evasion.

Sir?

Not an evasion.

Not a violation, therefore.

No, but, my God, I mean, if you're going to write about something, so the seafarers gave us, Paul Hall gave us $100,000.

They've written about that now four days in a row.

But Kimmelman writes off a half a million, which was an avoidance.

And he loaned that money for real?

Well, for a crisis.

Our people were in the name of the campaign.

I don't know if we explained it, but we explained about it during the campaign.

So it was a contribution?

Sure.

They carried it as a loan all through the campaign because they didn't want to show the state some of the money coming from these people.

After the election, they write off the loan.

That's the kind of thing you have to do.

Wouldn't our council get ahead of that in the hearing?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

That's the kind of thing that's where, you know, if our fundraising and money is being held up to inspection, the city should get it in the same way.

Yeah, come on the ride.

Oh, I'd call on every one of us, yeah.

If you have a parade, if that's the way they want to play the game, and they've got to know, the people on the Hill have got to know that's the way our guys are going to play the game, which I think they would.

But the bottom line, Mr. President, of all of this, really, is that I just don't think the public views a game.

Everybody enjoys a sideshow, and this town gets all excited over that kind of a situation.

But I think you just have to go up there and say the matter of principle, and be very hard about it, and then say, what the hell is the country here?

You're going to get the left to all exercise, because it's something they can do.

The people that I have talked to the last 48 hours,

uh just have one overwhelming sentiment and that is my god how proud they are to be americans i'm proud they are of you uh everybody it's been an interesting phenomenon everyone i've talked to has said congratulate the president on the prisoners and that's just the impact of that is

the equivalent of a thousand water gates in the future.

You know, even that, it's just a symbolic thing that, like, they ordered to take the flag, and it wasn't very effective.

Beautiful statement.

Edward should have given it to the Prime Minister.

No.

Washington Post very didn't, typically.

But they did, because they just, they knew it was very effective.

And Gary was the person who got it from them.

Absolutely.

Now, I...

Yes, I know.

And your statement was marvelous.

It's a time to fly the flight.

It's a time.

I talked to Fitzsimmons.

He said, Chris was so thrilled to stay with you Monday.

Last night, my guy didn't just do anything.

He said, that man, I just love that man.

He said, I'm just so proud.

Think of the courage.

Think of bringing those boys home.

And he brought them home.

The people are saying it, and that's the way it is.

But I would say that the right wing would be so enraged by that that it would be unbelievable.

I'm more than the right wing.

so oh yes that would be the most divisive thing you could do because everybody would feel that those cases definitely was something they didn't deserve to get away with yeah

and that's divisive i mean that's why that's why the black issue was so divisive because the middle class aren't working white thought well why the hell am i working so hard and the black is getting something for nothing it's precisely the same issue why did i go out and fight why do my sons fight it's just like the black white issue and it's a lot deeper than it's much deeper than just uh criminal penalties to draft that that's only the tip of the iceberg

The idea that people can get away with things in society that the average citizen can't get away with.

That's what they affected.

They affected the elite because the elite can send their kids to college.

And by God, I've had to work, and I didn't have that luxury.

And that's what it's all about.

You can never rely on that advocacy issue except for the partnership cases that you get.

I wrote a book.

I was writing, I tried last night to write a novel on the great goals of the second administration.

I had something I really wanted to do.

And he said, if I can get away from reading the daily newspaper.

That's right.

I'm trying to get out of perspective.

The really great, the greatest accomplishment, I think, and I think you're already there, it's just a matter of containing it, is to rebuild the feeling of national pride.

He's very good on that.

Well, I believe it firmly.

Mike, this country is so different today in terms of self-respect, self-reliance.

And you've done this by your own character.

But your amnesty issue is right in line with that because what was tearing this country apart was the feeling that some people were getting something for nothing and others had to work to support them.

That just went too far.

You know, people don't mind helping others on relief, but they don't like to see people getting away with something.

The welfare loafer, the draft does.

You can't rebuild the pride in this country that you're doing and the self-respect of the people of this country.

At the same time, let people get away with not carrying their load.

That's really what it comes down to.

Amnesty, welfare...

symptomatic of the same thing that's where the social climate is getting into the daily lives but but i think that i think the change in four years and i think in eight years it'll be it'll be a permanent change

Another CDS was doing some squealing about the price of that stock falling.

Mm-hmm.

They were setting a new summary of that.

Yeah.

Just this week.

Well, I want to listen to it.

I don't want to listen to it.

And I think that's more to be done.

That's another one you're saying.

I think you will leave.

Otherwise, you allow the country to be molded by those in the background.

You see, that's the thing that really kills these factors.

There are exceptions.

They hold the country in their own way.

They hold the presidents in their own way.

Johnson was found out too.

And then all of a sudden, we come in.

Thank you.

I don't know.

They have to go to Washington.

Well, our, uh, our, uh, dollar devaluation kind of is like, you know, I didn't want to do it.

I didn't want to do it.

They just had to find a way to try to stick it to us.

I mean, it doesn't, it hasn't precisely reversed that.

And the time is absolutely 180 degrees wrong.

I think they are.

That's another one of those issues the public doesn't understand.

Evaluation was a nasty word.

You, by doing it on August 15th as you did, made it very acceptable.

What do you want to remember on Evaluation on August 15th?

We broke those prices, so there we have a total and a total price to go up to.

This time, this time, we did not freeze.

We don't have to freeze anymore.

Well, the key thing is that the word evaluation, which had nasty connotations before, it doesn't anymore.

It doesn't.

I mean, people before were afraid of it, but they're not now.

The public doesn't understand that.

a couple of catchphrases they understand, a gift of trade policy, and that's great, and they like that.

And, uh, you've got all of this, I mean, beautifully as a line, uh, a little follow-up.

Uh, now, anyway, uh, what else is, that's, that's kind of a genius, that, uh, Yes, he knows how to do it all.

I talked to him yesterday, he said, Yeah, I haven't been keeping close contact with him.

He's very, he's very high right now.

And he was planning to go next week.

Eddie, did he buy a chance?

Did he, did he mention the field?

Probably not.

Yeah, no, no, no, we talked about that.

And what I'm sure that was.

And how, you know, how everybody, everybody has, everybody has started every conversation over the last 40 hours.

Correctly, correctly.

You know, it's great.

And those fellows keep saying it.

They keep talking about hail the chief executive.

I heard it on the Today show that he had another prisoner who had landed, I guess, the first one back in the country.

And expressed appreciation.

They're all doing it.

It's great.

I mean, when you think about it, we kind of expected the prisoner.

And you're the person that brought him back.

We got a much better bounce on that than I saw it in terms of relating it to you.

Because of what they said.

Because of what they said, for sure.

We didn't agree on that.

No, I didn't.

I didn't agree on that.

It's tremendous.

And I really kind of feel that

Now they know the war is over.

We've got a lot of others.

We've got Mickey Gardner lined up to start the machinery rolling.

Conley does.

He's just going to have a hell of an effect.

Oh, God.

I hope they won't get the personal downplay and say nobody else followed.

I believe there will be a hell of a lot of Democrats in office who are just going to have to do something.

But we're going to have somebody doing that polling.

We might get an uptick in numbers of Republicans.

Absolutely.

Clearly so.

And you're...

We, for once, are in a position where we can have a little fun demagoguing an issue instead of being put in the other side of the room.

We're against spending money that doesn't need to be spent.

They're trying to force you to spend money that is wasteful, doesn't need to be spent.

And that's just so simple and so easy for people to understand.

Scott, with his usual ability to go to the heart of the system, the Congressman can't add to President Musgrave.

Okay.

I'm beautiful.

There you go.

The Congressman can't add to President Musgrave.

Very good.

now i think you're going to find a lot of support on that issue but i think the public thinks that they haven't gotten anything for all of these various programs poverty program welfare all that money going down the drain and they and they if you're fighting against that you're fighting to protect the attack selling and that's what right

That's really, right now, people are much more concerned about that than they are about aid for this or aid for that, which used to be the fashion ten years ago.

It's just not anymore.

It's not anymore?

No, it isn't.

That's, that's... Well, you better get off here.

You've got a client this afternoon.

You're going to be in Boston.

You're going to stay long in Boston.

Yes, sir.

I'm just going to see my mother today, this afternoon.

Eight o'clock, flight to London tonight.

I see.

That's why we forget the whole thing.

Better go.

Well, we'll tough it through and come out untapped as we always have.

This is a tough one because there's so many players.

So God damn sad.

I think those seven guys are involved now in Jesus Christ.

They get it with good intentions.

It's a long thing to do, actually.

Of course, I guess they must have known that they had to take this kind of risk.

I think they've been taking that all their lives, I don't doubt it.

I think they thought, well, how did you...

All right.

that you're a service for anything anytime right anyway