Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 858 › Conversation 858-005

Nixon, Ehrlichman & Shultz on Peter J. Brennan and Labor Department

Friday, February 16, 1973 · 11:59 AM–12:07 PM ET · Oval Office · 7 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.; Shultz, George P.Conversation858-005 on Tape 858StartFriday, February 16, 1973 at 11:59 AMEndFriday, February 16, 1973 at 12:07 PMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 858-005 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon, John Ehrlichman, and George Shultz met to discuss labor department personnel, specifically the management and staffing challenges facing Labor Secretary Peter J. Brennan. The participants coordinated travel plans involving Ehrlichman and Brennan, while also addressing George Meany’s inquiries regarding tax reform and presidential authority. Finally, the group discussed political strategy concerning potential aid to North Vietnam and how to frame domestic spending relative to historical post-war investments in Germany and Japan.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

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He wants to go next week.
Next week he's just gonna burst out on us.
No, he wants to go and he'll just go.
So you need a decision on this, how soon?
Well, I don't know.
Well, I mean, they all have a lot of fun in that building.
That's the interesting thing, isn't it?
Down there.
They need to have a little, you know, kind of function.
It's good for the field and the whole world out there.
We'd rather go back to the miserable apartments and talk about it.
Very good for Brennan for this coming year.
So he's had enough to go on down there.
Yeah, I know.
It was great.
Yeah.
And he'll continue saying this.
What does, what do we need to know about the, about shooting with Brennan?
He'll be on the plane.
John will be on too.
So if you, if you work on this.
I'll tell him that.
I spent four hours with him yesterday.
And I think he feels a little bit better about his personnel situation.
We've gone through different names and placed them around him.
And he feels at least he's in action.
And he's seeing some good people.
And he has a way of communicating.
The only question I would raise is, could we have kind
Check out.
Well, if we get his slate, I'd like him to come see what happened to me, you know.
Well, he's here.
He had a two-piece on him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Come on, come on, come on.
No, when he gets his slate, oh, he doesn't need to wait.
He ought to get his undersecretary right now.
He's got it.
Well, we have an idea now.
If I try to ask him to be with us, he's going to have to look at it.
I don't know.
Uh, did you guys know that I run into you at the meeting?
Yeah.
That went, that went well.
It's, it's very, uh, it's a personal, uh, feeling for you.
It was only when I knew that on Monday that I decided to do what everybody else was doing.
I just thought it was excellent.
I don't know what you, uh, are thinking.
Congress be willing to give the president authority.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
We've got it through.
He's a He's a He's a He's a He's a He's a He's a He's a He's a
He just sort of spoke to me on the side and said, now, is the president going to do anything about tax reform?
What's he want now?
He doesn't know what he wants.
He wants reform.
He said, I read about a sign I was saying that there's no money in it.
He said, that's not the point.
If we can do something that makes people see that everybody's paid, well, that's actually going to be taxed.
He said, we're taxed.
All right.
Uh, this business on the, uh, the back part of the H is, uh, you know, if you want to just say, look here, first of all, and we all shut up.
This little judgment, do we see what it is?
Uh, second, do you agree with this level?
Is that what the whole curtain is saying?
Uh, I'm confident that, uh, no domestic program will be shortchanged until it's off.
Excuse me to say that, but... Yeah, right.
You said it.
And you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you
Well, you better not say that.
That's Martha Rogers who said it.
She would have put that in front of the church.
People ought to be able to see it.
And also that our great investments in Japan and Germany pay off.
We have a peaceful Japan and a peaceful Germany.
And they're beating their heads up, aren't they?
And they're beating their heads up, aren't they?
That was our message.

NARA Description

On February 16, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, and George P. Shultz met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:59 am and 12:07 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 858-005 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 858-005

Date: February 16, 1973
Time: Unknown between 11:59 am and 12:07 pm
Location: Oval Office

John D. Ehrlichman met with George P. Shultz. This recording began at an unknown time while
the conversation was in progress.

       Farm prices

       Someone’s trip

       Sir Christopher Soames

       Cabinet meeting
              -International perspectives
              -Department responsibilities
              -Peter J. Brennan

The President entered at an unknown time after 11:59 am.

       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542

       Meeting with Brennan
             -Travel plans
                     -Ehrlichman

       Labor Department personnel
              -Shultz's previous meeting with Brennan
                      -Brennan’s management
                      -Understanding
                      -George Meany [?]
                      -Under Secretary

       Meany’s note
             -Congressional relations
                    -President’s authority
                    -Bill
                           -Labor support
                    -Shultz’s conversation with William L. Timmons [?]
             -Tax reform
                    -Meany
                           -Revenue
                           -Tax equity
                    -Ehrlichman’s role

       Shultz’s schedule

       Aid to North Vietnam
                     -Domestic spending
                     -Congressional responsibility
                     -Lyndon B. Johnson
                     -William P. Rogers’s role
                     -Domestic programs
                     -Post-war aid to Japan and Germany
                            -Peace
                            -Trade

The President, Shultz, and Ehrlichman left at 12:07 pm.

       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542

Also recorded on February 16, 1973

  • 858-001 8:50 AM · 19 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 8:50 am and 11:59 pm.
  • 858-003 9:08 AM · 30 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, and L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:08 am to 9:36 am.
  • 114-001 9:39 AM · 1 hr 36 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Vice President Spiro T. Agnew, and Cabinet officers and staffers, including William P. Rogers, George P. Shultz, Elliot L. Richardson, Richard G. Kleindienst, Rogers C. B. Morton, J. Philip Campbell, Frederick B. Dent, Peter J. Brennan, Caspar W. ("Cap") Weinberger, James T. Lynn, Claude S. Brinegar, Roy L. Ash, John A. Scali, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman, Peter M. Flanigan, William E. Timmons, Ronald L. Ziegler, Raymond K. Price, Jr., Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft, George H. W. Bush, Bryce N. Harlow, and Arthur J. Sohmer, met in the Cabinet Room of the White House from 9:39 am to 11:59 am.
  • 858-004 9:46 AM · 45 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Peter M. Flanigan, Helmut ("Hal") Sonnenfeldt, Sir Christopher Soames, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:46 am to 10:32 am.
  • 115-001 11:59 AM — Unknown persons [likely maintenance] met in the Cabinet Room of the White House on an unknown date, sometime between 11:59 am on February 16, 1973 and 10:00 am on March 6, 1973.
  • 115-002 11:59 AM — a White House tour group met in the Cabinet Room of the White House on an unknown date, sometime between 11:59 am on February 16, 1973 and 10:00 am on March 6, 1973.
  • 115-003 11:59 AM — a White House tour group met in the Cabinet Room of the White House on an unknown date, sometime between 11:59 am on February 16, 1973 and 10:00 am on March 6, 1973.
  • 115-004 11:59 AM — Unknown persons (likely maintenance) met in the Cabinet Room of the White House on an unknown date, sometime between 11:59 am on February 16, 1973 and 10:00 am on March 6, 1973.

All 15 conversations from February 16, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 858-005, February 16, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/858-005 (accessed October 11, 2026).