Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 859 › Conversation 859-021

Nixon, Dent & White House photographer on South Carolina and John B. Connally

Wednesday, February 21, 1973 · 10:47 AM–11:11 AM ET · Oval Office · 24 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Dent, Harry S.; White House photographerConversation859-021 on Tape 859StartWednesday, February 21, 1973 at 10:47 AMEndWednesday, February 21, 1973 at 11:11 AMRecording deviceOval OfficeSourceNixon Library record for 859-021 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Harry S. Dent reviewed the political success of the President's recent visit to South Carolina, focusing on favorable media coverage and the positive reception he received despite a Democrat-controlled state government. The conversation shifted to long-term political strategy, including the potential for a party switch by John B. Connally and the search for viable Republican candidates in the South for the 1974 elections. Nixon also discussed his ongoing efforts to curb government spending, expressing frustration with congressional resistance and special interest groups while reaffirming his commitment to his second-term domestic and foreign policy agendas.

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You know what I mean?
It was a good crowd, everything, but they don't need the crowd.
What bigger is it than you?
It was a statewide knockout.
Don't be silly.
Watch it on TV.
Of course, the crowd was way up here very well.
Yeah, it was.
Right.
And it was good, but it would have been, if it hadn't been that statewide knockout, it would have been even bigger.
But then last night, of course,
And the paper this morning gave it great coverage.
So it was a sensational hit.
Those people were really, really honored by your presence.
And not only the fact that you came, but the way you stood up there looking right there and talked to them.
And that impressed a devil of a people.
And everybody watched you on television and saw that, too.
What do you mean?
Just, I mean, exemplary.
Oh, not really.
Yes, sir.
That impressed me.
He is a gracious God.
I mean, if you were, when you got 72% in the South Carolina election, you'd get 80% today, and one of the West Ends told me that last night, on the other hand, you were popular, it has knocked down, that makes you so involved.
There was a slight time there, right after the election, when the party got moved.
Well, the bombing.
Yes, the police.
Oh, the bombing.
But, no, it's, it was perfect, and it didn't take too much of your time to get in and out of it.
you've got to prepare something to say, but I was pleased from a couple of standpoints.
One, to give you a chance to notice how I handled Thurman.
Right.
Rather than just, I called him and I said, I've heard this leadership from Thurman.
They've done that.
He got that started to holler a little bit.
Right.
And I think Strong was happy with that.
Right.
We were able to say something about Mrs. Thurman.
Right.
She was good.
You kissed her.
And that was on television.
I had a lot of couples.
They liked that.
Yes.
And the fact that he went into the Crown, you know.
And then the little boy down in front of him.
The other thing, too, was to be able to say, and I had a couple of lines in there, but the idea, the old line, that if you're powerful, if you're Washington, you ought to go back to the States.
And the fact that the United States should never send a president to a conference in a second conversation.
And finally, the fact that I was proud
about the fact that you said the cell phone was too far.
Did they get to the point of that?
They got to the point.
They got to the point.
You got to the point.
Well, of course, I know this is the only point.
But, I mean, you were close as well as I was.
And, but, you did a perfect, I mean, that was really, I've never seen you do a better job than you did personally with the way you put yourself, the way you put yourself on the ground.
Mrs. Burns sang the little boy thing.
And the way you spoke and what you had to say, it was really perfect.
And it was a good thing at the wrong time.
It was a Democratic legislation, Democratic government.
And they gave you the reaction.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
and other parts of the South.
Oh, yes, yes.
The fact that he came from Texas, going to North and South Carolina.
Just think of all the states that he came from, I'm sure you'd realize.
Like I said, my president never spoke to North Carolina.
I spoke to South Carolina.
It's always been the most recalcitrant one of these lectures.
Andy Jackson was born here in the day.
Right.
I heard all that.
And South Carolina's where the Civil War started.
That's right.
And it's always been independent.
and all the rest.
So it was good, though.
I didn't know if it wasn't a migrating question.
Yes, well, the government mentioned it, right?
But for the first time, as he said, 300 years ago, that was a... Actually, I must have overlooked it or something.
It did.
That was played big on television last night, in addition to the fact that it was played when you were there.
And the fact that, you know, when you signed that book,
Is he putting you in that job?
But it's not considered to be something that I'm so excited about.
But it's a big job.
It's a bit of a solid law to realize that that's all the recognition that's out there.
They got some point.
They got some point.
And I think all of those, so that you haven't, but they did want to script it out of that.
They're very comfortable with that.
Another thing I want to say is, I have, I've been watching the president, I've talked to him, there might have been a briefing paper.
This is a man, we have the potential to win the governorship of South Carolina in 1974, and this is a man who can win it because the whole business establishment elects the governor.
They will never support a Republican, but they support him.
He's the first man that they will support in the Democrats' elite this time.
They got a bad situation.
And more than that, he's not paying out of the trauma.
So, I think another thing was good.
I could go there and solve the problem.
and say that he was a speaker along with anybody.
Right, he already heard it.
Yes, sir.
They say that the behind-the-scenes Republicans said he was cheer and leave the chair behind him.
He's a very good guy.
Yes, he's very good.
And he's 1468 and 1772, and he made his son a judge who was going to help him get along with his dad.
And he's a fine man.
Yes, sir.
He's in the great tradition.
It's a big roster.
Honestly, he's a genius.
This is a Jew who has a little immigrant Jew.
He's like an Australian.
Yes.
Worked his way up.
Probably a Protestant or Jewish.
No, he's a Jew who doesn't profess much religion, but he... Well, that's good, too.
Yes.
He's a Jewish man.
Right.
Right.
But at the right time, I'm going to do some polling on the right-hand barrel.
And it looks okay, but I wouldn't want to leave here and try something that can't be done.
Because I don't see Kirk anyway.
He's above politics.
He looks upon his non-partisan and everything.
So that's just something I'll watch at the right time.
Because if we ever die, I think I'd have to get you to give him a little persuasion first if you want to.
both parties.
Let me ask you a couple of things.
You notice the rebellion on the budget and so forth, it was anticipated that we would have, we have no other choice than to have a bad budget for that race in Texas.
How do you know that?
How do you, how do you notice that they have these, you know, we told people around that street yesterday and got the, the way that some of our Republicans even are.
Mr. President, I read that the man out there on the street, the average man, is what you are doing.
Well, you notice those are some signs.
They don't have to do that.
They don't have to do that.
They're agricultural workers.
You'll come up with that again.
The Slade man, who is, I think, the best political man, the state chief law enforcement man, told me last night, he's the one who's very close to the government.
What's his name?
Pete Strong.
The Slade man?
Yes, he's the state law enforcement division chief.
Oh, he's the FBI chief.
Right, right, right.
And he told me last night it would be 80%.
And I agree with him.
This is my own feeling.
And what you're doing...
It's very difficult for people to argue with it.
I've talked to all the housing people in the southeast the other day, and I've got a, you know, I've preached to them.
I said, the very many of you people have asked for it.
You've won it all these years.
Here's a present for them who's coming to the city and they're doing these courageous things, you know, returning power to people and so forth, so on, preventing a tax increase, stemming the tide of inflation and so forth, and with real courage like you do with regard to Vietnam and the holidays and so forth.
and bring that out right now that he's on sick leave.
Every one of them can't do that for a second.
We appreciate what you said.
We cannot argue with the president.
That's right.
It's great because the average man is good.
It's only the leaders of the special interest groups.
Now, in South Carolina, they already ate holler, and the newspapers must have just smashed up the room.
Yes, sir.
The newspapers there have been good for us.
Yes, yes.
All the way across the board.
If you get back, if you would, or something, or while you're here at the White House, I would like for you to call the editor of each of the papers and any of the guys who made good commentaries.
Tell them this, that the president, we're going to do a little more of this.
Right.
He was looking over the coverage, and he just wanted to...
It's just about, it's 99%.
And at points, at certain points, when you want to molocate or something, it goes back to the nerve.
They flashed to burns.
So it was very well done.
So you mentioned to me about the turn.
And I have always, yes, yes, I'm just a branch office of my office, because they've been throwing a bit of national committee work at me that requires work right here in the district.
I will be here, and I will mention to him what you said, if you don't mind.
Right.
Well, particularly with respect to this candidate search.
Right.
They feel it's candidates, and we in the South, we've got direct candidates.
I mean, frankly, I think any of these Democrats get on the wrong side of the issue with this economy, even though they've been with us in the war.
We don't have any candidates.
Right.
Yes.
But we've got to do it now.
I mean, when I, in 72, we supported all our candidates, you know, except the vote running, I think.
in 1974.
I have no obligation at all to any of those people.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't support all of our candidates unless they're gross or senile.
Right.
Right.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
I don't give a damn.
Are those good women?
Good women.
First class.
Yes, sir.
Right.
No problem with them at all.
And they often, they stand out a little.
In fact, a young woman, 22 years of age, she stands out in the country.
I don't use her in action, even when we're talking about it.
Well, as we talk about it, I noticed it most of the time.
I asked the governor, and I, you know, he didn't call me, and I just said to him, let's get some more women like that in the country.
The final thing I say to you is, you know, that should ever work out.
Mr. Conway should be in this team.
Mr. Conway said this yesterday.
That will complete the transition.
Mr. Conway told me yesterday.
Because the courthouse crowd of Democrats and all, he's that kind of man.
You see?
And that will finish it off.
That's one of the reasons I've been interested.
There's a number of reasons I've been interested.
First, he's no future Democrat.
Second, he probably wants to keep his ties with Democrats because of his business and legal things.
These big corporations don't give a damn about the Democrats or the Republicans.
Third, why doesn't he move to the Republicans?
He's going to be a big man.
I mean, well, he'll catch all the partisan Democrats.
But he will kind of, even by that move, can affect the whole political structure of this country.
He can affect the whole structure of this country by making that move.
He has an option over it.
Both of them, he's a president.
And if I, if he goes, I can't do anything.
So I don't know how much he can do.
He'll be locked in, and then he'll have to agree to my agreement.
You've got a situation at the present time that should no longer be an issue, but I've got to go to the task force to get over here on Reagan.
Reagan will come back.
not kind of person, but the same kind of people, but greater than the Australians.
It's far away.
Rockefeller and Percy will kill each other.
Rockefeller can never make it to South Carolina.
He's uh, Mr. President, he's supporting you, he's helping you.
He couldn't make a fair day.
I mean, I mean, he might win in the final election because he's, I mean, I meant that in getting an nomination, he's a hell of a head to take.
If Conley doesn't run, I mean, he's a hell of a head to take.
If Conley doesn't run, I mean, he's a hell of a head to take.
And the feeling is that he's not the president.
He just, they like him in life very much.
And they like him, I feel like, even people on the right, like him, like him, like him, see, but it takes somebody way over their line to fight him today, you know, for the nomination or something.
And I think this was a friend of his, because I like him in my room, too.
But I don't know him.
They think he's too far away.
Everybody's a different kind of person.
Yes, I recognize that.
Well, I was, I was controversial too, you know, everybody, that's what they all said when I, when I was 68.
But he, uh... Well, it's a different thing.
And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
It's just that feeling, that little bit of fear.
There's a certain fear that they don't think he can win, and they're not quite sure he should be present.
I have a number of keepers.
Okay.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
Now, I don't mean it in any way, not in my district.
I like to be realistic like you are.
And the one thing that I just, and I talk to people, because people ask me about this all around the country, you know, where am I going to dance, but there's pictures of them.
And John Conley, if you talk to Conley.
Yes.
Yes.
He told me not to go.
He called me on the phone one day.
I told him.
Yes.
Yes.
And I told him.
I told him, you know, the longer he waits, the more difficult it's going to be.
And so, but he's, there's confidence in this man.
This man is the closest thing to you that people see of a real fit presidential material.
Yeah, he's alive.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, he's basically more Southern than I am, even though I have a hell of a lot of good presidential stuff.
But then, he'd take all the Congress states, just like that, and he only needs one other state, right?
Well, I'll tell you that, uh...
That man is very highly regarded.
And a lot of it is based upon the attention that you've given, what you've said.
You said you made a comment that made the police out of the world.
A lot of people picked up.
And so I just like to win.
I think you need to carry one of your policies and take a chance to lose it.
Well, as you know, this fight with the congressman is a pretty big one out there.
It's kind of part of this thing.
the U.S. resources, the budget, the interest, and all this other stuff, presidential power, part of it, I think, is just ignorance of the Congress.
The Congress is so ignorant of the credentials.
And here, they know, the Democrats, that they've got to find out what they actually need.
Now, Russell Walton, he's the Democratic governor for making a mistake and taking the president home right after his election, right after getting peace in Vietnam, when he would have to come out.
He said he thought it was a bad substitute, a bad policy.
You can sell your position.
People at times, especially the students,
they're dominating, they dominate the life of America too much, I need to say.
And you're right, we're making all the special measures, for example, we're going to have to import more cheese, and that takes on the dairy producers, but that's their job, right?
They don't have sugar.
Yes, we're cutting REAs on, that takes on our farmers, who are our greatest supporters, but it's only a couple hundred dollars a year.
But it does get packaged on with some silly, just those REA leaders,
And these love groups do not signify what people do.
The one thing I think, I love how it goes, how it should be a little less vocalist.
You know, that helps bring all these people into town.
But I love him, but he needs to be a little more quiet about what he's doing.
He's a young man, too much.
Yeah.
They do.
What does that mean?
You're turning the country around, not only
I mean, they've got a terrible government.
Who can, who can, uh, who in the world can be against that, except the, the, the big rules and the, and the key to our special interests?
You saw the reaction of the people yesterday.
The biggest and lowest you've got in the United States, uh, in Washington, was, uh, when you talked about reversing the time of the government.
And, uh, that is, that, that can sell in the Midwest, West, it can sell all over this country.
People don't want to go into that kind of situation.
And there's one thing I've learned in the four years I've been here.
One thing, Mr. President, the money is just drawn out of this government.
People come in with buckets to get it.
That great society stuff is not right.
Thank you, sir.

NARA Description

On February 21, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Harry S. Dent, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:47 am to 11:11 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 859-021 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 859-21

Date: February 21, 1973
Time: 10:47 am - 11:11 am
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Harry S. Dent; the White House photographer was present at the
beginning of the meeting.

       Photographs

       President's South Carolina visit
              -Black out on television [TV]
              -Crowds
              -Newspaper coverage
              -President’s demeanor
              -TV coverage
                      -President's appearance
                      -Extemporaneous remarks

       South Carolina Democrats
              -John C. West
                     -George S. McGovern supporter
                     -Support for the President
                     -Graciousness
                     -President's popularity
                     -South Carolina election results
                            -Effects of December bombing
       South Carolina visit
              -Strom J. Thurmond
                     -President’s comments
                     -Ernest Hollings
                     -President's statement
                     -Mrs. James Thurmond
                     -TV coverage
                            -President's mixing with crowds
                                     -Image of young boy
                                               -25-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                               Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

             -President’s statements
                    -Vietnam
                    -Federal and state powers
                    -President’s role in Congress
                    -Campaign pledges
                    -South
             -President's conduct
             -Mixing with crowd
                    -Mrs. Brynes
                    -Young boy
             -Appearance
             -Speech content
             -South Carolina Democrats
                    -Legislature
                    -Governors

      Visits to South
              -Southern strategy
                      -Thurmond’s support
              -President’s address to the South Carolina state legislature
                      -Recalcitrance
                      -Andrew Jackson
                      -Start of Civil War
                      -Independence
                              -Thurmond
                      -Significance
                              -West

**********************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

             -President’s statement
                    -TV coverage
                             -Little boy [?]
                    -Closing statement
                                            -26-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                        Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

                            -Book signing

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
**********************************************************************

      -Republican National Committee [RNC]
            -Dent’s role
                   -General Counsel
                   -Dent’s appreciation
                           -Prestige
                   -George H. W. Bush
                           -Statement
                   -Southern reaction
                           -Fred C. Scribner, Jr.

**********************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      Frederick B. Dent
             -Briefing paper
             -Strength
             -1974 election
                     -Governorship of South Carolina
                     -Importance of business support
                     -Republican support
             -Democrat
             -Weaknesses
                     -Earle Morris, Jr.
                            -Divorce

      Solomon Blatt
            -Support for President in 1968, 1972
            -Jewish ancestry
                    -Compared with Benjamin Disraeli
                    -Protectionism
                                              -27-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                              Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

      Political poll

      President’s visit

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
**********************************************************************

      Budget
               -Rebellion
               -Cuts
                       -Taxes
               -Demonstrations
               -Republican
                       -Cuts to Rural Electrification Administration [REA]
                       -Complaints
               -Public support for President
               -Protest
                       -Agricultural workers
               -President's popularity

      Pete Strong
              -South Carolina Law Enforcement Division
              -Statements about support for President

      President's policies
             -Dent’s statements
                      -Meeting with Southeast housing officials
             -Prisoners of War [POWs] [?]
             -Taxes
             -Inflation
             -Vietnam ceasefire

      South Carolina political issues
             -Housing
                                            -28-

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                               Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

             -Special interest groups
             -REA complaints
                    -Press reaction
             -Newspapers
                    -Support for President
                    -Dent's contacts with editors
                            -President’s appreciation
                                    -Endorsement
                                    -Coverage
                                           -Greenville
                                           -Columbia
                                           -Spartanburg
                                           -Charleston Press
                                    -TV commentators
                                           -Coverage

      South Carolina visit
             -Coverage
             -Motorcade
             -Byrnea

**********************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      Dent’s plans
             -RNC
             -Candidate search
                    -South
                    -Democrats

      Republicans
            -President’s support
                   -1972 election
                   -Exceptions
                   -James O. Eastland, John L. McClellan
                                      -29-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                       Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

              -Compared with 1974 election
       -South Carolina legislature
              -Two women
              -Need for more women candidates
                     -South
              -Youth
              -Governor [John C. West]
              -Charles W. Colson

South Carolina Court system
       -Democratic control

John B. Connally
       -Party switch
               -Future in Democratic Party
               -Effects on business community
               -Effect on party alignment
       -Electibility
               -Presidency
       -Opposition to Connally
               -Charles H. Percy
               -Ronald W. Reagan
                       -Spiro T. Agnew
               -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                       -Percy
                       -Lack of support in South
               -Agnew
               -Rockefeller
               -Agnew
                       -Attitudes
                               -South
                               -Public opposition
                                      -Approval as Vice President
                       -Controversy
                       -Public fears
                               -South
                                           -30-

                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                            Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

                                    -Republicans
                                    -Democrats
                    -Public support
                    -Conversation with Dent
                           -Party switch
                                    -Delay
                                           -Support at conventions
                    -Presidential material
                           -Nomination
                                    -Governor
                           -Support in South
                                    -Compared with the President
                           -Midwest
                           -Illinois, Ohio, California
                    -Nomination
                           -Outsider status
                    -President’s support
                           -Agnew, Rockefeller, Reagan
                    -Public respect
                    -Continuing President’s policies

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
**********************************************************************

      Congressional relations
            -Fight with President
                    -Presidential power
                    -Democrats
                    -Russell B. Long
                            -1972 election
                            -Vietnam cease-fire agreement
                    -Herman E. Talmadge
            -Support for President
                    -Interest groups
                            -Cheese imports
                                                -31-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                          Conversation No. 859-21 (cont’d)

                                    -Dairy producers
                                    -Liaison
                                    -Contributions
                             -REA leaders
                             -Lobbying groups
                             -Control of Congress
               -Blacks
                      -Jesse L. Jackson
                      -Demonstration
                              -Capitol
                      -Howard J. Phillips [?]

       President's policies
              -Second term administration
                       -Special interests
                       -Opposition
                       -Government’s role

       Government expenditures
             -Great society

       Stephen B. Bull
              -Governor [West]
              -Gift

Dent left at 11:11 am.

Also recorded on February 21, 1973

  • 043-145 10:17 AM · 17 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:17 am and 11:16 am.
  • 859-019 10:19 AM · 26 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Henry A. Kissinger, unknown person(s), and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:19 am to 10:46 am.
  • 859-020 10:46 AM · 38 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:46 am to 10:47 am.
  • 859-022 11:11 AM · 18 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:11 am and 11:16 am.
  • 859-023 11:11 AM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:11 am and 11:16 am.
  • 859-024 11:11 AM · 23 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:11 am and 11:16 am.
  • 043-147 11:16 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 11:16 am to 11:17 am.
  • 859-025 11:16 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:16 am to 11:17 am.

All 88 conversations from February 21, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 859-021, February 21, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/859-021 (accessed October 11, 2026).