Conversation 860-015

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I didn't have to do it to be the president.

I'm here as the president of the other.

That's really fixed.

It's present.

It happened to me and I've asked you a thousand years.

It's a long shot.

It sure happened.

It's been.

Let's get it.

We'll look at it.

Well, I got to say that the, when I heard about the 7th, I had no idea.

I had no idea.

One of the main things I want to do is I miss Duke.

I don't talk to the company or the White House, of course, but all of them.

But anyway, what I would like to do is to come toward the end of the evening and for the entertainment of Duke.

He's going to be doing my institution.

Oh, any of mine.

Anything that is, basically.

I don't mind the other, but I have found probably some of my friends in the entertainment comics that they feel a little strange.

You know, they like to tell a new story.

You know what I mean?

If I had a Julie Andrews or a Frank Snyder, he'd be great if he'd come.

But for the comic, Julie Andrews and she was, you know, she'd get her.

We had another person, Sammy Davis.

He did a great job.

And of course, he's one of these wonderful young groups.

They're wonderful young groups.

But anyway, you pick what you want.

They're a congregation, I think.

Well, they're a lot of them.

I think any kind of Negro groups are excellent, because, you know, that's one way to recognize them.

Well, the Silver's only had one good song, Jack.

That's a beautiful one, because there's only so many things to do.

The Rock is all right, but they're not very good when they hit the low temp.

Let me suggest this.

I got a book here that you might have fun doing.

That huge show.

I think it's the kind of thing that your people, your words, and your gifts are like to hear.

It's young, and rather than, unless you get somebody like Andrews, or any great star, it's better to not deal with it.

It's a young, vigorous group that's young.

So we all want to hear it, but it's up to us in any direction.

But anyway, I'll be there to pay my respects to you, and I'll be up there to say that we're going to do great.

I think one of the things of the advantages of having the president is that it allows you to get certain entertainment.

There's a lot of other things that you can do, which I think is not a bad idea.

You know, the radar can always have stuff.

I work with that group that produces the show for the young people.

And, of course, the American Concert has some good ones, but... Yeah, we've gone now.

You're sort of a fan of contribution, too.

Sure, I like it.

I'm not sure they go.

Remember we had, you had it one time, a lot of people didn't much like it.

I like contribution.

What I would do, Jack, is get something to vote.

I think one of them's about the young groups, is that they seem to appeal to everybody, you know, even if they, so...

I have made some calls that I wanted you to know about, because George undoubtedly will raise some of this.

I've been through this backwards and forwards, and I've finally taken his option book and checked all the decisions right on through and tried to strike some kind of a balance in the night.

The Treasury has these pet things that they trot out all the time, change capital gains and all of this.

So before we get further than that, if I could .

What about the counselors?

Do we have any reason to keep it up again at the moment?

Not right away.

We're meeting with their groups.

We had Weinberger's group this morning, all of them, pretty recently.

I don't think we want to do that right away.

There is a reason for a cabinet meeting of the domestic people in the cabinet, if you want to do it.

We have two meetings.

Well, maybe that probably will spend more time with the Congress.

It would be the Urban League deal.

Remember, we had two meetings in the council with Whitney Young.

Vernon Jordan has now been there a year.

And if you would want to do that, it would be a symbolic kind of thing.

It's not one black thing.

Oh, he behaves fine, sure.

He's no trouble.

Oh, he's fine.

He's fine.

Well, that's it.

It would get a little balance to that.

We can.

And it would be the thing to say to the capitol officers, now here's a constructive way of working in these communities, and we've always had good results in the urban league.

Well, that's the only thing I have to say.

Well, I don't think so.

And it was all professional, social worker type OEO employees.

These are the people we've been feeding on the OEO payroll.

And these are largely

Young blacks, or middle-aged blacks, moved out of the YMCA, moved out of the Urban League, moved out of the post office, and went to OEM, got on the payroll.

This is probably mostly New York.

And they came in a lot of buses.

Well, they're going to have to find jobs.

They're out of work.

But they are middle class blacks.

They own their own homes.

They get mortgages.

They get kids in school.

They get a car.

It is, but they're not the rioters.

Well, you're adding two-minute jobs here to the job picture.

It isn't as if they can't get work.

They are .

particularly the better class there, because everybody's trying to have blacks in the balancing zone.

That's right.

They are professional blacks.

A lot of them are that type.

Okay.

Well, I don't mind having a charter meeting, but let's have it, let's have it, perhaps this next week is pretty hard.

Maybe the week after that.

Okay.

Find a time that fits in the week after that.

Well, as a matter of fact, you don't need to be there for the whole thing.

It could be a working session between George and the captain.

Would you go in and bless and then you're out?

Like I've done before, I can go in and say, now this is a meeting, and the vice president goes, all right.

Well, it can't be one.

It doesn't have to be.

The domestic council.

Let's have a domestic council meeting.

And when you were there, that would be because he doesn't have to preside.

He's got an athletic black who shows every time he speaks.

So therefore, I think it should be a domestic council meeting.

It should be in the presence of .

I'll come in, bless him hard, and say, no, I've got to go out and see .

Yeah, yeah.

How about a day that I have such an appointment?

And then get him in there and have a picture taken.

On the Perry thing, if you can handle that.

Now, I can see him saying, well, I think you should tell him about this.

I think he could tell that .

We'll watch the situation and see if he comes off.

And of course, all these people bitching about, have you made this about the milk produce farmers?

Look, who are taking the first kick in the ass as a result of this question?

The farmers, yeah.

Right, the farmers.

We've got 82% of the farmers, they say, I would describe, I would describe, right?

So what do you think, is this the total answer to those who are bitching about the milk produce response?

Or is it the farmers?

Well, it's also an answer to OEL.

We're not punishing the blacks.

Our own constituency is taking it from here.

You know?

For purposes of my trust in anyone next week, I would like to have those numbers brought together in terms of how much the firearms and that.

You got it?

I guess the increase is actually .

But hey, a little of that .

Now, on energy, it occurred to me after the talk

One way to charge the Secretary of State is to set up something we've never done before.

I know we set up a congressional advisory group.

Let's pick up, let's pick the group ourselves.

We'd say we'd like Senator Jackson or Hollings to take time to get this, and they will meet with us on it.

How about trying that as a process?

All right.

Workable.

Sure.

You bet.

And we've picked the group.

All right.

And we'll pick this president.

We're saying we're not, we don't ask the Senate to name the rest, but I'll name people that have expressed great interest in Anderson, and to get Hollings on it, and to get Jackson, and all the rest on the roads, on the roads, bring them in, and say, and make it by far our sense, and we want that to advise us as we go along.

And I think you should get in first, and I'll come in briefly, and say, look,

We're working on this.

We've got all this.

Now we want you to follow this thing and walk the election.

Why don't you try this?

Talk to Jackson about it.

Talk to Collins about it.

They both contemplated that idea because .

But I don't know what he's talking about.

Well, I think, no, Bill, if you have that, we want the president to deal with it before he makes up his mind.

He wants to have the congressman at the end and want your advice.

OK, great.

We're going to do the same thing with citizens on a long-ranging basis.

OK, good.

Well, before we leave entity, the troops are getting very, very antsy about the timing on the energy message because it's going to be a production job.

So we're going to have to come up with some answers on some of these tough questions like deregulation of gas prices and things of that kind.

I'm inclined to think that the way to go about this would be for Henry, George, and me

to sit down with Davona and sit through this whole thing and come up with a set of recommendations for you.

Dad?

Well, the only one I think I would add to that, I just think that you would put it on the outside of your company.

OK.

I'll tell you why.

This is a terribly difficult bulletin.

Yep.

Now, taking deregulation of gas, I didn't walk right for the wrong reasons.

I think that's too much you've done, and I'm obligated.

And I'm able to show you, at the very least, that you've got to deregulate the new stuff.

The vote of John, I expect, is, is, is frankly, I think, is vital.

He's a system.

He's got to help a lot of people.

He's going to, he's going to provide that to us.

And I think, I think that at this time, you should invite him in.

I want him to participate so that he, for his political direction,

What I would like for you to do, I think you ought to carry that goddamn thing to Camp David.

Okay.

You ought to meet up there.

All right.

So you want to go to David's meeting and dinner and all that sort of thing.

Okay.

And I want to come up and meet with you.

Great.

To... Great.

To say we're having a meeting at Camp David on energy.

Right.

Maybe we do it on a Friday and then you come on up for your weekend and... Sure.

I'd come up for Saturday.

Yeah.

Okay.

But I can't get it.

I'll set that up.

I'm very concerned about it.

All right.

I'll tell you, the international aspect of this is just critical.

Well, I have no objection to that.

I don't think so.

Would he not?

Would he add?

He would contribute a great deal.

Peter has very fixed ideas on how this ought to come out.

One of the reasons Peter does not contribute is because his ideas are so goddamn fixed that he's going to split it between them.

Yeah, well, and he'll just filibuster you to death.

It's a problem.

No, he's got his ideas.

One of the reasons I'd like to have him in this is to get him up to speed on this whole subject, because he has not had exposure to us.

If you would, if he could give us an entire day and we could get him away to Camp David and get him away from the phone and all the distractions down there, we could do it in a day.

We'd have him aboard.

And some of these, well, I think if we could do it at the end of this week,

I'd like to do it.

I'd hate to let it slide another 10 days.

I don't know what your weekend plans are, but... Well, we could do it even if you weren't available.

Oh, yes.

Or maybe we could do it right here in Japan.

Another thing is that I could go up right here.

I'd be great.

I'd be beautiful.

Okay.

That's perfect.

Okay.

That's perfect.

Okay.

Taxes.

I had George do a balance.

And I've marked how I come down on these things on his balance.

I don't know if you want to run through this or not, but I've said we should have a minimum tax.

Everybody pays a tax.

We should correct the artificial accounting losses of these, which is a device where I invest in a losing proposition.

Oh, yes, I get it.

The most important thing here is being fed to George Shultz is to let it appear like tax reform.

That's right.

But the minimum tax by God is a very significant thing.

That's right.

Be sure to find out that I recommended this before.

That's right.

It's in here.

I said no to reduction of the tax rate from 70% to 50%.

That's a bad signal.

In other words, we're reducing the tax in the higher brackets.

OK. And I said no to changing capital gains tax at this time.

It's not a winner.

It would screw up the market.

It's an old Treasury Department.

that they've been trying to get for years.

Now, they say we don't make much money off of it, and it's an anachronism.

Well, that's where I came down.

Now, they propose their definition of simplification is to create a new standard deduction for hard to estimate items.

Well, hell, that isn't simplification.

It costs a billion and two.

And it isn't really what you mean or anybody really means about simplification, which is to be able to do your taxes without a lawyer.

This makes it more complicated.

And so I just think it's a billion and two.

How good is that to us?

Well, it doesn't do us any good.

They argue the simplification.

Now, they have, and Mitchell supports this, they have an option for a different kind of municipal bond, which is a federal subsidy bond, but it's taxable.

The interest that you get on it is taxable.

But we pay a 30% subsidy to

the municipality for issuing this kind of a bond, 30% of the interest.

And then they can do either one.

They can issue both kinds.

And we actually make money on this one because we pay out 30%, but we get back 40% in the taxes we make.

Yeah, they would.

Because, you see, there are investors that a tax-free bond doesn't interest.

Because it can't be done.

Yeah, OK.

He's got a bunch of things about income from foreign sources to tighten up the abuses in these companies that do business abroad.

Every one of them is good.

Property tax relief for the elderly, we've talked about before, and credit for private school tuition.

Now, they came at you, and it surprised me.

Go back to property tax relief for the elderly.

States themselves are moving rapidly in this area.

The ACIR voted that this area should be left to the states.

Perhaps the president would like to reconsider.

And I said, geez, he's committed 15 ways from Friday.

I don't know how he can reconsider at this point.

And none of these reasons would be enough to get him off the hook.

Let's face it, they were asking all the time.

Sure.

I've got it.

Okay.

All right.

Pension reform.

It's a... Well...

And then he's got some things to oppose, changes in depreciation and job development credit, which we should oppose.

Then he's got a whole bunch of things to change the estate and gift tax.

And, well, it doesn't affect anybody except your people.

It eliminates a number of the tax-saving devices in estate planning.

You've got a memo from John Alexander that came down the road, and he strongly against it.

He said that your people would just be up in arms.

OK. All right.

Well, that's where I came up.

It's a reasonably good package.

And it's not dramatic.

Yes.

It's got the minimum tax, it's got the elderly, it's got parochial aid, it's got foreign corporations, and it's about a wash.

I've been at you for a week.

Also, you guys saw that I had my own strong views on that.

That's what it was.

But I've talked to Alexander and put him at it tonight.

And I've talked along with others.

And in my case, I said, I know what is real and what is not.

Now, as a matter of fact, you know, both Long and the other asshole was talking about doing something on a state judge.

Yeah.

Let them do it.

Right.

Let them do it.

Right.

I agree.

I agree with this.

The Treasury guys will sneak around behind the scenes and encourage that anyway.

But you shouldn't be on it.

Okay, the only other little problem we have is the Pat Hitt-Mike Baldano problem, which is now reduced to a letter to me from Pat Hitt.

And I think you have to be aware of this, and basically you have to make this call.

I have my own concerns about how it ought to come out, but there are implications either way.

Now, Bob and I, as you know, had a long meeting with Bob Zahn yesterday.

Well, we had two and a half hours.

Oh, my God.

I understand.

Why don't you come down after me?

Well, I think he can do some good at action.

I think, on balance, that that's the way we ought to go.

Now, she has written me to say, as grateful and honored as she is, da-da-da-da, she is right for the State Department job, and she's talked it over with her husband.

If she can't be the director of action, then she's better to return to California and do what she can to support you from the private sector.

And that's what I have to say here.

She goes, well, the implication there is that they're both going

I don't know the answer to that, and I haven't talked to her about it, but that's a call that you have to make under certain circumstances.

Well, we left it with Bolzano that he should go home and think hard about where he could be as effective for you, which is what he says he wants to be, as he could be in action.

To be honest about it, I don't think he could be as effective anyplace else.

The kid did his dissertation for his PhD about action.

He knows the thing inside and out.

He knows where the body is buried over there.

He's highly motivated, and I suspect he could use that money to do political good.

Is there any way that you could get Rogers to do the other job?

Well, I don't know.

I invoked your name, and that's a present.

He's personally involved in this.

He picked this job for you.

He wants you to take it.

And so on.

And she writes the letter.

She gives me a big, long page and a half about those matters.

She says, I'm grateful for the presence, interest, and concern.

But I can't take a job for which I do not believe I'm equipped to perform at least as well as anybody else in behalf of Rich Nixon.

I could pay off well in action.

I have no background in training, expertise, or knowledge in areas in which the State Department functions.

I'd be around to pay the square home.

Yep.

What would you do?

Well, yeah, I think that's about where I come out.

It's going to hurt.

It'll be a one-day story in Washington and a one-month story in California.

And it'll hurt.

Are you going to talk to Finch about it?

No.

Finch has been lobbying us for her inaction.

I don't know.

I don't think anybody could be as effective with her as you.

And I have used you.

So I assume we shot our big gun.

I have had her, I have had her over to my office and I put my arm around her and told her how much we all love her.

And that Price really wants her to do this thing.

I don't think we can handle her.

Who the hell is going to handle Rose?

I don't know.

I'll have to figure this out.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

Why don't you put it further?

I'm working on it now.

We're going to do it.

I'll sign up.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If somebody's that close to me, that's going to be brutal.

So if she hears it from Rose, she'll know it's, you know, it's right.

So I'd like you to, all right, I'll make the decision.

She's not going to forget it.

And it's too bad.

Thank you.

And so, Rose, the president spent too much time.

He's already spent three hours in Florida trying to work it out.

Do you want to, do you want to phone Rose and ask her to do this?

No.

Okay.

No, I don't have to.

I don't want to warn her because I actually want to talk to her.

I don't want her.

I'll try about this.

Then I'll see her right now and get her programed if I can.

That's all I've got.

What did you say, John?

The president's asking.

He spent hours on this.

He thought it over.

And he did it because he would ask me, you know, well, you can't bother with this.

There's no way.

And here's the problem.

Yeah.

And we need your help.

Okay.

And she can't.

And she said she can't.

And she decided that I cannot have her in action.

I couldn't get my feet on the wheel.

I know.

Because it's got to be cut back.

I've got to put somebody in there who'll cut it back.

Yeah.

And I didn't tell her to cut it back.

She would have done it that way.

She knew what she was told.

She wouldn't be able to do it, but she's got to be honest with you on her writing.

She said it.

She's not that smart.

And also, if she's this incisive, dogmatic, what the hell does she think she's going to be over there when we say get her to the PCL?

It's not a little fancy, but, you know, clear a comment from the PCL or something.

Have you heard of it?

Okay.

Well, I know it was a mistake.

It was a mistake.

It was always a mistake to drink some coffee with this person.

I'm not going to go back into the goddamn thing.

I'm saying it's important.

She wasn't going to do it, whatever.

No, she's just her.

She's just a very good person.

Very good.

Oh, very good.

Yeah, very good.

Sit down.

I want you to sit.

Oh.

So that we can talk about energy.

Oh, fine.

Good.

Well, we're not going to do a message as such.

With that Ways and Means Committee, you know, you go up and you sit down with the committee staff and you negotiate and you schmooze around.

George talks to Mills and all that kind of stuff.

How do we get our position across?

By Q&A on our backgrounders and our briefings and that sort of stuff.

We'll get it out.

Why?

I'm speaking to that, aren't I?

Do you want to do a statement?

I think I should do a statement.

OK. OK. Or let's show this to them.

I don't think there's that much violation.

I don't know.

Or is there?

I don't know.

I think it's about a wash.

I don't think it would hurt to have George do it.

I think you're being good.

You're being good on the basis that we don't have to have an opening statement.

We want to consult with the committee.

I don't think it's a winning issue at this juncture.

You don't?

I do not.

I think you've gotten the mileage out of it.

That's right.

I agree.

I did the Chowder and Marching and the other one this morning.

I've been on file.

Free of animosity or acrimony, a little whimpering by Peter Friedenhausen and two or three others about the box they find themselves in.

But a hell of a lot of feedback from their trips to their district over the region.

People like the cuts.

They like your control of the fence.

And the message is coming through.

The Wall Street Journal had a wrap-up piece this morning.

They said you've already won the fight of the budget.

I don't know.

Well, you see, the war has still gone on in Washington, but it's been won in the rest of the country.

That's the way the Wall Street Journal is.

There are soundings around the country, attitudes of people, the mail that Congress is getting.

That kind of thing.

Well, the boys this morning were mainly just wiggling in the corners a little bit.

Now, you said in your information, I don't know how this came about, but based on your recommendation and Billy's,

The freshman?

First, I've already had them to a reception in the White House.

Most of them will be there tomorrow night.

And all of them will be included in one of these events.

Well, you know, we spent an entire day with them, going into issues.

Al Haig, Jim Cole and I were up there all one Saturday.

You see, there's a couple of ways to respond to you.

But you see, the reason I don't want to do it, I am on the first job.

Every time I sit down with our lawyers, it doesn't look out of place.

Sure.

And I can't talk right to them.

Same thing.

I mean, they like it and so forth, but it's not right for them to be dissenting against it.

I find, too, that if we do this, then CNN... Yeah, but they don't want to do that.

...SOS, what I do later, those are more powerful people.

And the Wednesday Club, why don't I do that?

I just don't count on doing it.

But when they have given these versions, that's tremendous.

A lot of versions are gone.

We're doing the others.

The point is, I don't think, I think, following your advice, I think they do them socially.

Well, I agree.

I totally agree.

Absolutely.

And we're giving them an enormous amount of substantive attention.

Marina Whitman's been up and breathed, and they're just getting on with it.

It's the explosion.

I tell you.

Yeah.

Well, I think you're doing it.

I think that really the painless way, although it is pain in the ass, is eating at the White House.

Well, now, they'll be down to six and seven, won't they?

Isn't that something?

You see, and that's the strategy.

You see, each one of them.

Well, Mario's going to have two strategies, and it's going to be the top 200 to 30.

developed about two stag dinners, you know, 30 or 73, and one state dinner.

But first of all, if we were to have a state dinner every month, we couldn't get that money in.

Well, it doesn't even devalue the currency in that way.

Yeah.

But it's really not a problem.

Well, here in Congress, we believe it does.

We're aware that it's a problem.

We're aware.

We will delete that.

We don't do that.

We're coming to the conclusion.

And we're going to wear some of these.

Well, actually, in all the time I've been going up to these groups, this is the best mood, oddly enough, that I've run into among this particular group.

Usually they growl and snap and they fish and they've got all kinds of problems.

They were pretty even keeled today.

Do you agree that I should not do the progression?

Oh, there's no reason to do that.

That's the month of March.

That's the first half.

Well, that doesn't do it all.

The only problem is you want to review the government.

If you don't, you do not contribute at all.

One of the reasons that we have been able to do a relatively good job in this office for four years is that I have avoided making the best decision I've ever made in my life.

Yeah, yeah.

We've got some hours that are saved.

two army to go in.

And all those armies take every goddamn one of them.

Yeah.

Another thing, Mr. Boyd, I was under amends for that.

Sorry.

John said that he didn't, uh, so he had to get, after his meeting with Sam and the rest, he just pulled him into the train.

He pointed out that they'd already given him a whole day's briefing over here in the White House.

No, at the, up at the Capitol, up on the hill.

Yeah.

So I don't know, but .

I know you told Steve, but it's only fair, I'll talk to Bill, that he .

We feel this is right, because absolutely, we've got a clutch edge on it.

If any of us start cramping, all of a sudden, the floodgates will open.

And one of the...

Some city meetings with members of Congress by meeting is impossible.

I regretfully thought that out.

I can do it with individuals.

I can do it in very small groups.

I think now even that is dangerous.

When you sit down with 15 to 20 guys and let anybody in, it's great, but it's very unfortunate if you don't do that.

Yeah.

You can't do it.

Yeah.

There's no property for you that I... Well, I was saying,

I think Bill's idea of using you and the rest of us up there on a continuing basis makes a lot of sense.

One at a time, which gives them a lot of means, where they get to know people who could go behind the scenes and talk to ourselves, and that's worthwhile.

Well, this particular group had Marina Whitman, Cole, me, Hay, all in a string.

Sorry, I forgot to ask you that.

Yeah.

that they could have an opportunity to talk to you on specific points that they wanted to raise after the election, after the inauguration.

I agree.

I hope that some of it and not all of it will go away.

I'm not sure whether it'll work.

We had it in our standing skills, and that basically does have a commitment from you that you would see it.

I've worked it over.

Some of them will be something of a problem.

Some of them won't be a problem.

Max Fisher will be a problem.

But Max Fisher, I think you almost have to...

I mean, you want to focus on the bunch.

If you want to have problems, it works for you.

Yeah.

You know, he's got a pretty wife and everything, and he'd probably like to do it, I think, because Max deserves it.

Listen, he worked his butt off.

He worked his table.

I'd love to have him as an ambassador.

Okay, all right, we'll start again in a minute.

Oh, and the thing I wanted to say to you, Henry, is that two things that I think would be extremely helpful.

We've got to require some of your time.

The second thing and the first thing is

to work out a period of time.

We are trying to take the...

I just have to say, Bob, Jim is just not making a horrible mistake of just having these briefings to the Republicans.

I'll bet he is.

If he is, it's a mistake.

Look where he is.

Huh?

What they're calling him right now is not there.

Yeah, it's a protocompression.

Well, he's trying to cover the... Oh, no, no.

He's trying to cover those perks of the field.

The point is, on the critical votes that we're going to have to have in the board votes area, particularly in the Vietnam area, we have gotten to get across that thin line.

I think we have to do, in the case of Henry, we need to do all this before

If you get Henry doing those, he's not going to wait 5,000 years.

Well, there are 10 or 11 of those groups.

How did you start that?

You see, I told Bob, you have got to get this out of its central eye.

You've got to look at me as a gentleman.

I've got to look at Henry.

I've got to look at everything that comes from now on.

Well, it's not your fault.

And of course, this is not good.

It's not close.

But we've got to do something.

Well, I suppose that might be worthwhile.

What do you think?

I don't know.

It's only... See, I've had to get down.

I've had to get down the whole country.

Yeah, I know.

I know.

I don't think he had a rush to do it very soon.

I mean, maybe we're piling up too fast.

Yeah.

All right, let me say, just to get this out of the way, can I suggest, Bob, that you and Tim, and Earl, can sit down in the morning.

Henry, do you want to be there?

Can you sit down in the morning and get this thing straightened out?

Because I couldn't agree to get Earl to serve him one week, and then Henry goes up and so forth.

It goes too far.

And also, Henry's got to work the other side of the tree, too.

He's got to work the Democrats.

And a lot of that's got to be done individually.

John says it's imperative that you get in the energy.

Did I get what?

Get in the energy.

I'm going to count the reasons for that, and this is a very sensitive matter, but I'll say that.

He planted us.

He gave us therapy, and he told our men that there's no use in conquering each other.

What I planted him, what I suggested to John, he refused, and told us, and told them, and people.

I think that's very strong.

If there came to war on us,

I'd like to, but I mean, you can't take it, and then I'll come up and interview you again to conclude it.

Okay.

Well, then, how's your Friday this week?

You know, Friday this week, where's that from?

Friday didn't, like, we go up, I think, on 12, about 1 o'clock.

It wasn't there.

Did you know?

It was.

That was last night.

Okay.

You're going to New York, so I think it's up there.

Okay.

We can do this Friday, or we can do it Saturday evening.

How about Friday?

Why don't you hold that?

We have to do this early.

I would like, if I could, to get it done.

To get it done.

But I would have to present this as a state representative driving the country.

I'll have you sit down, sir, with the bonus and go over the checkbooks.

But you've got to get him in on it.

He is in on it in the sense that I have given him the reading to give the number so that this meeting can be one

I'll say the President wanted Henry to break on this in the White House.

I agree with you that Pete has to move to a separate background.

Okay, first of all, I would be interested in your views on your direction.

You cannot discuss this other than the government in any way.

Yes, you can.

For the most complex subject,

linear analysis.

And I told Tom about your .

He didn't want any information.

And he predicted, he said, the Chinese are going to be ready now for major breakthroughs.

Well, you know, they did extraordinary things.

They sent their representatives in Hong Kong to the airport to see me off when I was going to take a picture in front of all the television and news.

So, I mean, I think that's not in the international times.

You know, I was thinking, I read it, and it's really, I don't know, but it's pretty, you know, he was, he was pretty good at all.

And he would bring it back, and he said, here's a guy who writes well, and he understands, and only our money.

Well, he didn't come in.

He wanted to go to the capital himself.

But he could be a great...

If you could give me some green, you'll have more than enough.

I appreciate it.

I can have as long as I want.

I haven't really had a chance to...

I can see the foreign policy has, but it has to find a way to shift the resources, to shift, turn to things from... from the United States to other countries.

Well, for a change, for a change.

I think this is the moment to study.

The reason is to make money and have somebody

I didn't read nothing about it.

That day, of course, we had a briefing.

That's what I see here.

But, for example, at least one of the things we recommended is that we cut down as much of us as we can, any, any, for each of us, if we ever wanted to.

Or, from the end of the election, you know, and see if that's the thing.

We've got to have it integrated, integrated, integrated.

You can't try to modify it, you know, that is a policy consideration.

It transcends the, you know, the, you know, the scene of Iraq and Libya.

You've got to cut their water under, you've got to pour it into the Saudis, you know, into the Arab states, into Iran, and even up here, you know, right, you know, you could, you could lay out your yard transit, but you can't.

I've just seen two rather comfortable stands.

Here it was.

From the amount he said he can make it.

He said that the colors really fit.

I said not to be the truth.

He said they can make it.

They have a good band.

An excellent band.

The other side is less.

But he used the thing in a very good way.

And he has, it was a good agreement, and he takes the situation as he feels the big thing now is for us to keep it.

If anything, a little extra economic aid this year.

If they can get an economic...

He feels they need about 50 million to 100 million more than we've programmed.

Because if they can have a real take-off this year, as he thinks they're on the verge of getting, then the Communists just haven't got elected yet.

You can see where that candy didn't come out of there.

Any part of it is so far from Vietnam.

You can't go anywhere near Vietnam because of the bombing in the United States of Korea.

And that's supposed to be the thing that got held in this whole mountain over there.

And then the brother got a sense.

Now, doesn't that vary about where you're going to send this stuff?

What's the mistake?

What do you think?

The way they handled it was a disaster, Mr. President.

If it hadn't been done the way you would have done it, in a mature way...

He wasn't getting it in the wrong way.

He was getting it in the wrong way.

And getting it in with no clear strategy, through a constant sense of crisis, putting in 20,000.

We should have made up our mind whether we wanted to win or not.

Having made up our mind, we should have done love, Cambodia, done everything that was needed...

And we would have made it in a year, a year and a half.

Yeah, but he never followed us.

He backed out of Laos and went into Vietnam.

Totally inconsistent policies.

He opened up the Ho Chi Minh Trail, got us into Vietnam, but just enough to get us involved, not enough to make any difference.

Why anyone thought 20,000 advisors with helicopters would make any difference?

No one will ever know.

Ten times we repeated the same mistake on a larger scale.

Because it was essentially the same group of advisors.

One other thing these Chinese told us was that they had had mentors.

They had mentors from all the people.

And they said they owned him against flying with the Russians and against flying with the Libyans.

And they said whenever we're in a squeeze, they'd try to put in a word.

It's the first time it's started.

And they've made a decision.

Oh, wow.

They've made a decision, but they've done it on their own.

of the situation.

And they've come essentially to your conclusion.

That is what Myles told me.

He said, we've looked at it.

We've analyzed his integrity.

We've analyzed Amit's integrity.

He said, we've watched him for years.

We've studied everything he said last year.

And he said, it's very significant.

they could have done something to reduce the state of the relationship.

Of course, but to reduce the state of the relationship since President Nixon's visit to Beijing.

And, you know, for us in America, it is in the presence of fear.

But there's the Chinese, there's the China watchers.

The Daily Telegraph has not said the nature of

President Nixon's triumph and his diplomacy with China cannot be overestimated.

We didn't, our journalists after hot news, but their man Pringles, it doesn't make any difference, but British correspondent, Robert Ellington, today, you know, that's the sign, Joe Alba, had a comment today.

Yes, yes.

You said no foreign visitor has ever received the honors in China that Kirsten should have.

But you and I know it had nothing to do with me personally.

In fact, that was another thing that I just thought of last night.

And in fact, I asked Betty Lord, who's Chinese,

I didn't explain it to her.

I said, Mao said about three times, he said, the women are on his ass.

He said, we'd like to send you some women.

He said, would you take some women off our hands as a joke to me?

He said, take some women.

And I thought he was pulling my back about my, you know, I kept making jokes, but then I kept asking myself, they don't make jokes.

They're too puritanical to make jokes about my sex life.

So I asked Betty Lohr, I said, you know, I'm really puzzled.

Mao kept saying, depending on his answer, what can, I'd like to thank the women, I'd like you to thank the women of our, she said, oh, that's simple.

He was talking about his wife, who was the leader of the Cultural Revolution.

That was his way of saying that that's finished.

And of course, you know, when you think about it,

And he said, there's two things.

You have to try to prevent an attack.

But if the attack comes, poke them in the back.

We'll hold out.

We'll fight.

We'll welcome their defense.

That's all.

Very good in every way.

I've never used it.

I've never cared for it.

Now, they're trying to buy some private lands from the British, and we've got to find a way of doing it, letting the British do it.

Yeah.

Any questions?

Why?

Because of the regulations.

No, you brought about a diplomatic revolution of unbelievable magnitude, because all of this can be done without...

Getting to the situation in Marvel, is your thought brief first on China?

I'm going to leave on both.

I'd leave on China and ask a question sometime.

And on the wedding, how do you feel about it?

Take a glance at the Trumps.

The major thing is that what the President wants to do is to beat Hanoi.

And that I don't mind saying publicly.

It's about the same change in our relation to Hanoi and into China that he has brought about in his relation to Beijing.

That is the significance of the meeting.

Now, aid is one tool among many.

And I would say the significance of it is what do we want to do with Hanoi?

We want Hanoi to be brought into a constructive relationship with the rest of the world.

They must get used to dealing with people on the basis of equality.

To us, this is the significance of the aid program.

It's not a favor we're doing to Hanoi.

It is something we're doing to stabilize the situation, to change the outlook on the world.

And it is, as the president said, an essential investment in peace.

The details we will work out through the economic commission

fully consult with the Congress.

I don't think we should be so defensive about it.

I don't think Bill today, I mean, he said that I think, but he sort of acted as we did with the war, or as he did with the war, as if we had to apologize for the bad thing.

Yeah, I think, oh, we'll consult you and we'll talk to you and we don't,

We should be on the attack.

We should have these people worried that they are jeopardizing the state.

I have to say that I didn't even know you were going to say it, but if you look in the back, you're not really responsible.

You want to jeopardize the peace that we have now built up in this long struggle.

I would put that right in your face and in your eyes.

If it comes to play, and if you believe in responsible voices in Congress,

You know, I mean, in Europe and also today, we need the same kind of program today.

I thought I'd start with China, then we'll put them all in a good mood.

If you agree, and then go to Hanoi.

I agree.

I think with Hanoi, I would have given them a little feel for the atmosphere.

I don't want to go into the details, but there wasn't really that much civilian destruction.

Well, how would you raise one of them?

I said, you've got to pass him.

He's the only one.

I could just say... That's what I thought I would say.

I mean, one of the astounding things was...

I could say we had a land at one end, he would fly to another, and we...

put their feet by low over the whole Red River area of Illinois.

And I've just talked it off without making an argument for about two minutes.

And I would like to say to them, if you agree, that these people seem to me to be poised now between whether to continue their whole life's experience of a revolutionary struggle or whether to go

on a more evolutionary course, that it's in our interest to get them in an evolutionary direction.

And for that we have to find some things to work with them on.

That is the significance of behavior.

Now we're working on love.

I got to get you the quote.

He said, and he thinks he is

He calls me the greatest friend that he has in the world.

But that's only for people like me.

I don't take it seriously.

That's what you know?

Mom doesn't need me.

I'm the only American that Mao talked to and talked about with you.

And that was then how he started the conversation.

Calling what you had said to them.

Saying, I want you to know that the border president, I've thought about it.

I'm a dedicated communist.

I've always believed in it.

And I had come to the conclusion he is the only man in the world today who might have thought and who has the grasp of what is involved, as he said.

And what is involved, basically, is how are we going to stop these bastards?

Oh, God, you're a good gentleman.

And they talked about Japan, and he said,

If you want to go to Japan, spend an extra day at the hotel.

Faith is very important to us.

And we don't want to give up the security, David.

Unbelievable.

Of course, you know I can't hear you.

I can hear you any way you want.

I'd like to give you a very personal message to the President in continuation of the conversation of last year.

I've not attempted to discuss that.

I think if the main political points are covered, he gets to communicate, but all I can say is it was an extraordinary conversation.

What did they ask you at the meeting, as to whether or not, if you're going to write some Congress-specific question about whether you write it?

Well, we are not blocking it, but for the same reasons that we want to help in North Vietnam with an argument against the helping in South Vietnam.

But the Chinese won't help in South Vietnam.

The Chinese have no intention.

The Chinese, another thing that Joe told me,

Mao told me that we consider the Vietnam thing basically settled in an expressed outlife, which means four different sets.

Zhou, in effect, said that all they would give would aid to ignore the Vietnamist replacement.

Well, that's a very good point.

I mean, because that question raised, too, to get into this Chinese thing of being

I can't say that, but I can say that I believe that the Chinese...

I can say the Chinese, I believe, I believe, want the peace maintained.

You know, this law is inspiring, but it's a very good time.

It must be beneficial.

Well, but it actually is true, because when I was in Hanoi, I told you they had said in Hanoi we had agreed that there'd be a ceasefire by the end of the week.

I sent that in a message.

And we had even worked out the modality and how to do it, and I got Peking also involved.

And then they said they would draw, invite foreign ministers to Peking.

And it came to pass the next day.

In fact, I sent a number of messages in your name.

I mean, I don't have to say I sent them.

I'll just say the President was very heavily involved there.

I sent some reports to the President and the President sent some reports to Hanoi and some to me and T.K.

What I think now, Mr. President, is that we ought to give them one big wallop.

That's the only thing those sons of bitches understand.

Well, it's just plantation that causes problems for the French, isn't it?

No, it's probably true.

Well, I've heard that one's probably true, or I've heard that one's probably true.

No, it's probably true, but that's where they're coming from.

But it won't embarrass them.

I agree with it.

We'll all get an estimate of how many casualties there'll be.

The problem with these things is we're running too many casualties.

All right, yeah.

That could be.

It may not be.

I'm going to have to look at it.

Because that's also what broke the back that we ordered to push up the B-52s.

Now, then I won't say to the leaders that we're going to make that shift or not to do it.

But what we can say is we had a lot of advice to stop the bombing in Laos.

And what's interesting is that Hanoi never protested.

You have wound up getting exactly what you said.

I can say we can't vote as far as our actions are concerned.

Cambodia is a really tough situation.

But the Chinese said they would give us some names that they thought could be in a sort of provisional coalition government.

What they will probably want is that both Lonol and Shiro sat down, and others come in.

And everyone agrees that Lonol isn't any good, that he's sick.

He's pretty good.

The target's quite good.

Basically, what the Chinese want in Cambodia is so different from us.

They want the North Vietnamese out.

They want the Russians out.

We want it neutral.

And they want it neutral.

Well, what the hell?

I mean, we don't want anything else.

But they don't really feel it's true.

Well, the easiest, of course, would be to bring she and her back as a sort of figurehead.

But that we can't do.

We can't believe it's not true.

Really?

Well, on that, you get different decisions.

I don't think we can believe it's not true.

I don't think you do.

I mean, you have a score about that.

No, you can't believe it.

You can't believe it.

He's a dogmatic guy.

He's completely dogmatic.

It's too aggressive.

Now, we have another thing that has to do with the Middle East.

I have the impression that Russia and Cisco are again cranking up one of their wild charges.

Now, I agree we have to do something, but we don't have.

We have now, after years of effort, gotten the Arabs into a situation where they're coming to us.

We must give the impression that every time there's a crisis in the Middle East, it's our crisis.

It's a hell of a lot better to get the parties pleading with us to engage themselves.

To engage us, we've got the Russians pleading with us now, we've got the Arabs pleading with us.

I mean, today, the Israeli Saddam's flag, a Lithuanian flag, was passed away.

It's inexcusable.

And I approved messages of condolence on your behalf to Gaddafi and Saddam.

But on top of that, now, Radcliffe has issued a statement.

He's called Ismail in London.

And that makes an impression of panic.

When the Israelis shoot down a plane, it isn't our business.

I mean, it isn't our business.

We didn't shoot down all this.

He called them in London.

Now, you know that Ismail is coming over here anyway.

He was afraid to lose the visit.

The Arabs need the bloody visit more than we do.

I really hope we don't give anybody exclusive jurisdiction because he'll get us into the same mess he's gotten us.

Your methods, the methods you and I on your behalf have used, work because we never get ourselves in.

We move slowly, deliberately.

And what I plan to do with these Egyptians on Sunday and Monday, so that you know, is to say, look, for four years you've been talking.

If the Israelis could have designed your strategy, they couldn't have done it better.

Because you come up with all these high-sounding formulas, which cannot be accepted, and which lead only to assailment, the result of which is that the Israelis stay exactly where they are, which is what they want.

If you want to talk to us in Dubai, come up with a formula we can sell.

We are willing to bring a lot of pressure on the Israelis, but we are not willing to have awards.

And we are not willing to press the Israeli support when they'll go to war, but we are willing to press them, some sort of that.

Now, if you can work with us in that kind of work, we can... Well, let me suggest one thing else.

I see this as a situation where we've got to get both sides a little cranky.

That's right.

Now, what I would like for you to push into that is to think that we say, you know, the president is a man.

And I go, we can't tell you this.

You can't do this.

But the president can't do this.

He wants you to be accountable to the president.

But the way to get that is to have a minister.

And let's have a minister.

Let's get what we can.

And you see, basically, we have to know this.

The Israelis do not want to work with us.

I think other people do.

The thing to do is to get the Egyptians to agree to a pact.

That's not cool.

But the Egyptians will only do that if they think we're going to continue to push the Israelis.

So I tell them, yes, we're for a permanent settlement.

And then they can get us to the agreement.

I think if we can get her a settlement, you know, open it up, and then start relating to the Egyptians, we can turn that away.

They don't want, they don't need this goddamn land.

I think it's all a bunch of .

I know it is.

And I have had an idea, Mr. President, .

If we can do, for example, we could separate the issue of sovereignty from the issue of security.

We said they can get back the territory

They can get sovereignty back to their old frontier.

But they've got to give the Israelis some special security zone.

They can have the police, but the Israelis can have some basis.

There's no population, so a lot of complex things are possible.

So then they don't lose faith.

But I'm not going to come up with any plans on this meeting.

Anyway, I think this meeting we should just talk.

Almost certainly that meaning is going to get out, and that's unavoidable.

And he's going to come in to see you.

Well, I thought it was best if you, and I see him alone, and you just mention, I mean, with whoever, whatever, you should just mention to him that you're fully behind his meaning.

Oh, yes, sure.

And...

Then he's going to have one new project.

Oh, then he's going to have the whole day of branches, so it's...

But they've got...

But we can say that we can...

The way we can handle that is, Rajat is leaving Saturday morning.

We can then say the Egyptians asked us,

Saturday, and then I decided, then you decided, that I should see them.

Just so you know what they have to say.

I wouldn't say a damn thing, because we have to say it.

Or even if we should say it.

I don't know.

My judgment is that they'll say it.

They'll point it out.

Yeah.

So therefore, the thing to do is to say that you're going to be in New York, and you have to see New York in a little bit.

I think we should.

Yeah.

I think if it's clear to me that they're going to say it, we're better off making it as a joint announcement or something, or at least confirm their announcement.

So the way you visualize it is that they would have a meeting on Friday or Sunday?

Friday night.

And I'm seeing them Sunday afternoon and Monday.

And, uh, you're going to have to have a shot.

That's what they want.

Well, it's worth it if anything.

You just don't know if they're coming in another day and they're going to talk.

It's probably not going to work.

I think if it isn't going to work, we better not get you that deeply involved.

I think you can put it this way.

If they have to rock us, then they have to have a bird talk.

You may want to see Ron just before he goes to the conference on a number of issues.

He ought to be instructed.

He ought to be instructed, Mr. President, that at the conference he should not ever gang up against the Chinese, no matter what the issue is.

All the reds we can handle.

Well, if you and he and I have to be after this French, how would that be?

No, that I can't do, because I don't agree.

When can I see him?

Tomorrow or Friday.

Friday morning, maybe.

That's intentional.

All right, all right.

Good.

You better see Ryland.

Right.

He's over there now.

Yes, sir.

All right.

Give us all a chance tomorrow.

Right.

Well, that would be...