Nixon, Rhyne & Ehrlichman on National Institute of Justice Commission

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Well, Charlie, how are you?

How are you?

Good to see you.

All right.

Congratulations.

Good to see you.

You know, when I first asked you, I didn't do it.

Last December.

And I was gonna say to you, you better have a lot of ways to sit there on that darn bench.

No matter how they scream, no matter how the floor fell, you have to stick to the game plan, stick to the game plan.

Yeah, I guess he did, didn't he?

I didn't remember all that.

You know, I thought that Bush was probably a great game plan.

I was like, oh, gosh, yes.

And I think he was probably the greatest coach ever.

Because I was, they talk about you, but, well, I don't think he was.

We asked for it as far as we ever wanted.

But that man, by just sticking to it, sticking to it, I just thought that's what you were doing.

I admire you, Mark, because the old man came out all right, you know.

He didn't care how much they screamed or how the ball passed.

He didn't care whether they were ahead or not.

And he never got beat by more than two touchdowns in his entire career.

Is that right?

He never suffered a big defeat.

Never, never, no.

But we always stuck with him.

But really, sometimes, he was a great pro-coach all the time.

Yeah, I say sometimes.

The old man is still alive, you know, still very vigorous.

If you ever have some kind of a function you could invite him to, that would do it.

But you know, for he and Mrs. Wade and anything else, I run into him once in a while.

Is he able to travel?

Well, he is.

Oh, look, he bounced across the street in Durham the last about six months ago, when I was down there.

I had the richest man in the world, one of the greatest.

I'll see that he comes.

But I didn't ask really to see it for that purpose, Mr. Fred.

I wanted to read about your pet project.

What was your pet project?

I had two of them.

Oh, two of them?

Two of them.

The first thing I want to talk about is this National Institute of Justice Commission that I'm head of.

It came out of the suggestion of Warren Burger.

It came to look at the whole of justice in the United States.

Now, this is a commission made up of laymen and lawyers, but coming out of the American Bar Association.

I say, this idea has been talked about for years.

And of course, Burger

The book I'm in is doing the law with the National Science Foundation, the National Science and Art Council, which is in our department.

But actually, actually, it's the controversy of justice when you talk about legal education, or the police, or prosecutors.

I wrote it down into 15 parts.

and said, look, we're going to look at this a long time.

Because, for example, even within your administration, one of your young guys teed off on the Chief Justice because he thought this whole thing was affecting the LEAA.

And when they come running to me about it, I say, well, ask the President what his position is.

His little public can't say his position.

But I think this is a very serious thing, because I have to agree with Whitburger that no matter where you touch the justice system in our country,

That's what we're trying to find out.

I said, look, I'm not an expert.

I didn't pick up this concept.

This is an American bar.

Yes.

Yes, but I say, I recommend that it go way beyond the American bar and involve everybody.

We've got labor people on it.

We've got industry people on it.

So it's a broad statement.

And I told him, I would not make it.

an instant recommendation.

Now, the way it looks like it's going to shape up is about like this, that we will recommend in the overall some kind of an organization that will be able to really get money from the law, because you know we spend less than 1% on the law, in a way that other banks have.

What has happened is that I've got most of the experts who know about all of this, but they were wicked tyrannists, but you touch a sacred cow.

And what concerned me most was when we started in on this.

We were coming into the campaign.

And so, you know how your dissipation friends are.

These people, they're lawyers.

They never want to change it on the lawyers, you know, and the judges and so on.

But I think what you could, I'll tell you what I would do is get your report ready and come in and make

I don't mind what I'm doing.

That's what I would like.

But now we brought 200 people into Washington.

We talked about what could be done, what should be done.

We gave them all these reports of experts and would not allow them to come to any conclusion.

You know Malcolm Wilkie.

He's sound.

He's solid.

Now he's drafting the alternatives.

So you know they're going to be all right.

But if they're all right or not, if people read certain conclusions, I should see them.

Well, but I would like to.

And I would like to present it to them.

It'll take us maybe the rest of the year.

Fine, all right.

But because it's a double commission that I'm very interested in, that we talk about it, and that I want them to really probe into it.

And if they're ready to report, I expect them to report to me, and I'll meet the whole group of candidates.

Well, I'm very grateful for that, because the one thing I wanted to tell you was, now, as we touch these sacred cows, you'll probably see some headlines like we saw about Jarrett Snyder jumping on the Chief Justice.

He got things shut high in publicity.

All right.

But that's a .

But if you read the headline trying to claim that I am doing something, you know that's false.

Are you going to wait until Christmas?

Yes.

Oh, yes.

That's one of the big things.

Get into that.

Of course, get into this.

That worries me a lot.

Okay.

And the state court and the whole business of the speed up of the process of justice.

And 95% of it's done in the state courts.

Oh, sure, sure.

Federalists.

And so we have to create an agency that lets them take part that's not federal.

But it has to be an agency, in my judgment, where the president will appoint the people.

You've got to get money out of the federal government.

It's the only place.

What would the money be?

The money would be used to energize the whole court system to take a look at what's wrong in legal education, what's wrong in the delivery of law services, all this legal mess and stuff like that, what's wrong in prisons.

What's wrong here?

What's wrong there?

But it's not going to be, I say, an instant expert.

And I think I know enough.

I understand the longer story there.

It'll be .

And it'll be careful.

And I just don't want, I think, from the and then I've depended you everywhere.

And I'm not going to have people say anything adverse at this time.

Now, moving on to the international area.

Now, you know I feel pretty strong.

play in support of you when you say we've got to be the strongest nation on earth.

I agree.

I think that's one thing.

I would just note that it means for you, because you can do it, that you would honor the biggest bill of the law in the international community.

All your rings are wonderful, but the only way you're going to give them permanence, Mr. President, is to institutionalize them and to put them into the law.

Let them live on.

And I'm not just talking about this world law coup, which I really think you

lot to do because if you start it, all the rest of the people can only head to the Nixon code forever.

And I talked to some of your people.

I talked to the State Department.

The State Department referred it back over here.

They were all for it.

But I understand it was founded on the question of money.

And I would say to you, if it's a question of money, I can't think of anything more useful you could use the artist control agency's money for.

go into this whole thing of the build-up in law.

You've pioneered so much in this field of negotiation.

You shouldn't confine it to the United States and the great powers.

There are principles there.

There are procedures there that ought to be laid out for everybody.

And only you can do it.

Only you can do it.

international law.

Yes, sir.

Yes, I did.

But I say that that's the one that I argued through your guys and argued through the State Department guys.

Oh, I didn't believe you.

Well, they were talking about, say, $250,000.

I would like to see, say, there's so many things that could come out of it.

Number one, more international law has come into existence in the past 25 years than I wouldn't see in my

But it hasn't been codified or put together in any way.

Now, if you just started, you know that the code would never be finished.

Ever.

If you started.

See, the big thing is, you know, I traveled the world.

I went over and I was talking to Haile Selassie.

And he said, I've done more for international law than any man in all history.

And I said, how?

And he said, well, I told the League of Nations that they did not own the rule of law.

They went out of existence and they did.

But

Not to Ethiopia.

They maybe belong to 100 treaties and agreements.

Maybe.

But, my lord, even mainland China, you don't know.

We have 4,000.

That whole mess of law, though, is not carving.

It's not collecting.

It can be done.

But only someone like you can do it.

It's going to cost money, yes.

But if money is the...

I don't think anybody can get more out of this country than the United Nations can do it.

Well, for the United States, it's weak as water.

Much of this law, much of this law is in the swamp, by the way.

You know, in the area, yeah.

And so many of these people are persons, from your view, that the United States should take the leadership out by law.

started and asked him to join me.

He said, watch what you've got to codify.

I don't want to hear what treaties are on them.

And he presented to them.

I remember being in Nigeria 15 years ago.

And they said, will you please send us the aviation treaties?

I said, why don't you get all of it, Jimmy, and then have some funny stuff in there.

But he said, you give it to me with an official stamp that it comes to war peace.

We lost that one.

Then we know we've got the right stuff.

Now, I think if you handed Ohio, I'd say, a book of all the treaties that he ought to adhere to, maybe he wouldn't take them all.

And I don't think we can have a war in Parliament or a war in government.

I'm totally opposed to that.

But it would give them something they don't have now.

And so I think that in this whole area of international justice, you can all do the same things we're going to do with domestic justice.

and then see what you have.

Now, the other thing I want to say to you, I realize that you're not much for cliches, but actually, the word justice, you know, more and more and more and more

You know, you always want peace with justice.

Oh, there are justice.

That's right.

I'd just give anything if you could talk about that more.

You're working for justice in America, justice in the world.

There's nothing you could say that would mean more to more people.

Because they all want it.

We'll never have perfect justice.

But it's kind of a great thing.

It stirs things within people.

And I was just out of Chicago, and I spoke to Rotary No.

1.

And I spoke of your one thing.

the war and all that kind of stuff.

And Lord, they came out of their seats.

I tell you, we were back on the high road again.

And it's a battle you'll be interested to know.

You probably haven't seen it yet.

I guess, you know, it's an awful day in our community.

We've got to see that there will be an office set up in Washington, D.C.

between they'll have one here, they'll have one at the Cape Town.

This, of course, is a hard thing for our Taiwan peace agreements, but it's a very significant development.

This is the first time the Communist Party has ever set up an office in a country where Taiwan already had, and where Taiwan didn't get out.

So it shows an enormous, important development now.

The other side of that coin is that what we have done here

Now they want to get closer to us.

You see, that's why it's played that way.

You open up the world.

It doesn't mean the world is safe.

It doesn't mean we have to reduce our defenses and that sort of thing.

It does mean that the world has changed.

Before it was frozen in ice, now it's thawing.

Now, at times of thaw, it's very, very dangerous.

It can create crops or it can create a flood.

So we're trying to get the crops so we can harvest them, rather than the flood to destroy itself.

And that's the tricky time right now, as we move into this fall period.

You take, for example, on this agreement on Laos.

It's amusing to me to see some of the people that persuaded and allowed us to come out are supporting the poor Laotians.

And they're attempting to keep the gods from overrunning them.

They are now condemning the ceasefires because they say it gave the communists too much help.

And what it did is that they provided knowledge

about five, six months ago.

And the Congress of the Holy Scouts here .

So what really happens here, generally, is that it's an agreement with Siobhan Coleman, who is the where he retains his position.

And the North Vietnamese get out in 90 days, which is important.

But I only mention that because

You're never going to be totally safe down there.

You're never going to be free from conflict there.

India's always going to fight Pakistan.

And the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese are probably always going to be at each other's throats.

And North Korea and South Korea are going to be after each other.

And the context of the free world is going to have its differences.

And there will be differences in the free world.

The only thing we have to realize is that the world was never made for instant peace.

What you say about complication is true.

That the law must get, must grow.

And the world is even slower to process than a country.

Like the common law, it grows and grows and grows.

And you can't have an instant constitution.

That's why the world government people demand the best of intentions.

But they thought we could sit down and strike off a constitution for the whole world, whether it's a leading nation or the UN.

Doesn't work.

On the other hand, I agree that a process

but we're also at the same time we're going to build

We're going to build it out of law institutions, law rules, as well.

And we're going to look for justice in our country and abroad.

And that's something that, whether they have a good word, if even Congress brought justice, they also .

They brought justice to a certain extent.

They have a sort of a rough kind of justice in their country.

You know, when I was last in Moscow, almost the entire Supreme Court let me out of the airport.

And we talked about justice.

We talked about a lot of things.

And Cyrano, who's now the Chief Justice, he was then just a member of the court.

Gorkin, who remembers you quite well from Tunisia or something, was then the Chief Justice.

He was head of the Communist Party and was also head of their Supreme Soviet.

When he met you, you were Vice President.

He's now about 85, so he's retired.

But they want what we have.

They want what we have.

And said to me, well, you don't have perfect justice.

And I said, no, we never will have.

But we work for it.

We work for it.

But I think that in this area, you can do so much because, well, you're on top of the heap.

Everybody's looking to you.

You can do so much more.

Oh, yes.

But I'm sure that you will love her.

I'll make it.

And so this is it.

Well, I have to say, I appreciate your way of doing things.

You've gone to the bathroom a lot of times at 6 p.m. Really?

Yeah.

What did you have?

A lot of old things.

$4 million, we haven't got it done.

No sense here, you know.

And so I had to come over here and see President Eisenhower.

And I was working on some drug thing for him.

And he said, well, I'm doing all this thing.

What can I do for you?

I said, you can invite every rich person in the United States for dinner at the White House.

So he said, you know, he said, you're right to tell her.

And he did.

And pretty much that's what he did.

But I think that, what was that conversation about?

It was shortly after you called me and asked me to head home.

It happened on May 4th.

Yeah, I knew that.

But I think that the governor's office, I think that the witness with which I moved,

to invite all these people.

And he stood up over here when they came.

He said, you know, I just want to properly shake you down here.

We should go over to the Carlton.

They're all ready for you.

I like your idea.

Well, I guess we haven't discussed the thing.

I'd like for you to run over with John.

I'd be glad to.

I've got a better idea.

So we don't have to do all the work here.

You tell Steve you and I talk.

And then keep him posted on the thing.

And we'll sort of use him as a .

This is on his commission, Charlie.

Oh, tonight's going to be the Justice of the National Institute.

Yes.

So we're going to .

We're going to tell .

Good.

Let's see.

Let's see, Mr. .

Boy scouts.

Yeah.

With that, Mr. Clarkson, I just want to remind you that Clark is the chairman of the .

Instead of .

I asked him this time.

Yeah.

Come over on this side of the room.

Charlie, you stay over on this side.

President will be coming out on this side here.

Yeah, I'm over here.

Just right over here.

All right.

Position all the rest of them.

Over this way.

Come right in.

Come right over here.

Just form a line, right over here.

On the side, come over this way a little bit further.

Yeah, so wait.

Today, I'm just trying to make the presentation just for today.

Right over here.

Thank you.

Right over here.

Back up a little bit.

Presentations.

Thank you.

Yes, how are you?

Don't worry about it.

Thank you.

Mr. President, on behalf of the over 60-year-old boy and adult members of the Boy Scouts of America, I would like to present to you, in this time, the official membership card.

To certify this, you may honor the title of the Boy Scouts of America.

And as you know, in South India, we've had many volunteers who've been here, such as Scott Matthews, Tom Matthews, Simone McConnery, and .

And that's the most important.

The number one real volunteer in the Boy Scout program here, please stand here and give us a 1973.

What do I do with my kids, please?

Mr. President, our federal charter requires us to make an annual report to you on this county's restoring program.

This report is summarized in a special folder and contains what we consider the highlights of 1972.

They are Project SOAR, our Nationwide Conservation Program, Project REACH,

the Scouting Programs Foundation for Prevention of Drug Abuse, the Second Annual Presidential Explorers' Conference, and the introduction of the approved staff.

With great pleasure, I present this to you on behalf of staff.

Mr. President, the Boy Scouts of America region is the 26th new administrative region

for the purpose of more effectively bringing scouting to the U.S. and the United States.

This plaque shows each of the six regions and the areas are made of wood.

It is a great pleasure to present this to you for your service to the U.S. and the United States.

Yes, sir.

I know we didn't get this one.

Mr. President, we know that you are the nation's number one sportsman in the U.S. Mr. President, we look forward to that day.

for personal good and also to do with development.

Last year, the exporters held their second international exporter, the Colorado University Channel Business Act.

I'd like to present this exporter to the Black community as a token of honor, which is an obligation to carry out business and safety activities, and that's important to the Black community.

Now, please.

Well, I want to express my appreciation to all of you.

John Hitch is the outstanding president of the United States.

And I'm glad that you recognize him as well.

He's having a lot of girls.

He's got a good group.

Yeah, could you tell them to get one of the pictures that you're going to do?

I think they might like you all.

Also, I want you to know that your projects are very, very, very different from the projects like that.

All of the groups in the United States, including those in coverage and the press, they've heard of us often, such as our instructors.

They've heard of us speaking, for example, last week about our environment.

They, of course, are enormously interested in the mission of the United States and our young people generally.

And here, the scouts,

throughout this country, including all of those who supported my work, all of the authorities, and individuals who followed me on.

We, as a government, were ready for the rest of the people of the country to cooperate, and we can accomplish that.

And Scottish, like no other organization, certainly felt my interest in the United States, and I wish the rest more volunteers for these great goals this year.

The other thing I'd like to say,

I'm sure all of you will appreciate it.

This is the fourth time I have received this group.

This is the fifth time I should say this, because as you know, the President is the Honorary President of the White House of America.

This is the first time as a President that I have been able to receive you at a time when I can say to you that you no longer are the President's choice to have a choice.

This is my service to you today because it's a very

honorable and important profession.

And also, it's the first time that I've seen you, and I can say that the United States and all nations of the world, my greatest hope for you, in addition to the progress on all these fronts that you're so important to hold, is that you and your brothers and your sons may grow up in a world of peace.

Thank you very much.

Now we have always been accustomed to the market.

It's important for us to be able to get a special tour in the wild.

Mike Farrell is here with us.

Mike?

Yes, Mike.

So this is the VIP tour.

And we'll give them a special tour.

We're going to look at all the things.

So go pick anything up.

I think we shouldn't leave something for them, though.

We've got some really good stuff here.

Let's see.

Maybe we ought to collect...

No, I think, I think, but I think high bars.

High bars are all .

OK, if I, high bars and boys, and give these older gentlemen, these older scouts, give them cups.

I wonder if they have to wear cups.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Nixon, Rhyne & Ehrlichman on National Institute of Justice Commission

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on February 22, 1973

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