{"conversationCode":"862-009","tapeNumber":862,"conversationNumber":9,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-862-009","startDateTime":"1973-02-23T16:14:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-02-23T16:21:00.000Z","startDate":"23-Feb-1973","startTime":"11:14 AM","endDate":"23-Feb-1973","endTime":"11:21 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.; Bull, Stephen B.;","description":"On February 23, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:14 am to 11:21 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 862-009 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"OVAL","recordingDevice":"Oval Office","latitudeEstimated":38.8974,"longitudeEstimated":-77.0374,"chronCode":"5.4","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part IV","chronReleaseDate":"8-Dec-2010","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 862-9\n\nDate: February 23, 1973\nTime: 11:14 am - 11:21 am\nLocation: Oval Office\n\nThe President met with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n       President's previous meeting on international conference\n              -Enthusiasm\n                      -William J. Porter\n                      -William H. Sullivan\n\n       Kissinger's meeting with William P. Clements\n              -Laos and Cambodia\n              -Clements's qualities\n                     -Toughness\n                     -Loyalty\n\n       J. William Middendorf\n               -Appointment                 -International Security Affairs [ISA]\n                        -President’s view\n               -Loyalty\n               -Intelligence\n               -Loyalty compared with intelligence\n\n Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:14 am.\n\n       President's schedule\n              -Telephone call\n              -Next meeting\n                      -Kissinger’s presence\n\nBull left at an unknown time before 11:21 am.\n\f                                      -13-\n\n            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                    Conversation No. 862-21 (cont’d)\n\nWilliam P. Rogers\n       -Egypt’s visit [Hafez Ismail]\n       -Authorization to speak for administration\n       -Dealings with Israel\n               -Firmness\n       -Kissinger’s concern\n               -US-Egypt relations\n       -Spokesman\n       -President’s concerns\n               -Memorandum\n               -Rogers\n               -Golda Meir\n                       -Hard-line\n                              -Election\n       -Timing of settlement\n       -Meir’s visit\n               -Yitzhak Rabin\n                       -Kissinger’s conversation\n       -Private negotiations\n       -Israel’s concessions\n       -Egypt’s position\n               -Kissinger\n\nMiddle East\n      -State Department\n              -Problems\n      -Options\n      -Negotiation strategy\n              -Compared with Strategic Arms Limitation Talks [SALT], Vietnam\n\nLaos and Cambodia\n       -Rogers\n               -State Department\n       -Attacks\n       -Sullivan\n       -Porter\n\f                                              -14-\n\n                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                            Conversation No. 862-21 (cont’d)\n\n               -Kenneth D. Rush\n               -Sullivan\n                       -Loyalty to administration\n\n       Meeting with Egypt\n             -Kissinger’s schedule\n             -Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft’s schedule\n             -Photograph\n\nKissinger left at 11:21 am.","filename":["862-009.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A.","Bull, Stephen B."],"prevCode":"862-008","nextCode":"862-010","transcript":[{"start":7.5,"end":9.64,"text":"You've got these guys really all charged up."},{"start":9.7,"end":11.43,"text":"Porter and Sullivan."},{"start":11.61,"end":13.91,"text":"They're right."},{"start":15.21,"end":16.81,"text":"I just had a meeting with Bill Clemens."},{"start":16.85,"end":17.49,"text":"Just a meeting with him?"},{"start":17.51,"end":17.65,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":17.67,"end":19.77,"text":"Oh no, and also what you said."},{"start":20.89,"end":22.93,"text":"A lot of them in Cambodia have been air-triggered."},{"start":24.79,"end":27.43,"text":"They needed it, yeah."},{"start":28.74,"end":29.78,"text":"I just met with Clemens."},{"start":30.42,"end":34.74,"text":"He's really going to be a good guy."},{"start":34.8,"end":37.54,"text":"He's a tough guy, and he's a 100% loyalist."},{"start":39,"end":43.48,"text":"He would like to make Mitchell head of ISA defense."},{"start":47.39,"end":48.45,"text":"I love that guard."},{"start":48.57,"end":51.83,"text":"Well, that guard was..."},{"start":55.98,"end":62.53,"text":"And Dark is so, I don't know if he has to talk to you about it, he probably has."},{"start":62.57,"end":65.14,"text":"He's basically a rather thick and straight line."},{"start":65.17,"end":65.84,"text":"He's totally our man."},{"start":66.8,"end":68.08,"text":"And that's all you need, fine."},{"start":68.26,"end":70.26,"text":"But I'll tell you, he's not very smart."},{"start":71.43,"end":72.73,"text":"He's not very smart."},{"start":72.75,"end":74.35,"text":"But this we don't have to decide now."},{"start":74.37,"end":77.67,"text":"We have time until next week."},{"start":77.71,"end":79.39,"text":"Wait a minute, you want to work?"},{"start":79.45,"end":81.8,"text":"I'd rather have a lawyer, but it's the next lawyer list."},{"start":82.33,"end":83.92,"text":"He's a total lawyer."},{"start":83.98,"end":87.44,"text":"So if you want a total lawyer, you should have a second."},{"start":87.56,"end":89.28,"text":"No, let me talk to you for one minute."},{"start":89.42,"end":91.32,"text":"All right."},{"start":91.42,"end":92.68,"text":"All right."},{"start":94.83,"end":95.67,"text":"All right."},{"start":95.69,"end":96.75,"text":"All right."},{"start":96.77,"end":97.01,"text":"All right."},{"start":97.03,"end":97.25,"text":"All right."},{"start":98.5,"end":104.42,"text":"I'll come in after about 15 minutes"},{"start":127.65,"end":133.15,"text":"Well, the Egyptians, well, that was Dr. Archer, but I must be more specific."},{"start":133.17,"end":139.1,"text":"I should have agreed with Teddy to raise the issue, but, you know, the point I want to make is that Archer called me."},{"start":139.12,"end":142.82,"text":"He says he sees a great breakthrough coming here with Egypt, which is totally not good."},{"start":143.78,"end":151.19,"text":"And he wants you to tell the Egyptians that he, Archer, has authorized to speak for you to make a strong pitch to them."},{"start":152.48,"end":158.48,"text":"The trouble is, we've got to keep a very strong line with these people."},{"start":159.74,"end":167.58,"text":"My worry is that we can't be in a position to tell these people anything until we've talked to these people."},{"start":167.64,"end":170.04,"text":"It took us 18 months to get these guys coming to us."},{"start":170.14,"end":175.2,"text":"If we now act like overheated puppets, pleading with them to be permitted to do something, we're dead."},{"start":176.24,"end":177.2,"text":"What do you want me to tell them?"},{"start":177.62,"end":180.54,"text":"That he is your spokesman if you're going to make a big offer to"},{"start":182.16,"end":182.66,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":182.68,"end":185.03,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":185.07,"end":186.04,"text":"That's kind of confusing."},{"start":188.06,"end":189.66,"text":"I just wanted to do a private thing."},{"start":190.34,"end":195.08,"text":"I've gone through the paper here, and I've marked down some things that I'm concerned about."},{"start":196.16,"end":205.36,"text":"One thing I'm really terribly concerned about, we're going to put her, him, and this channel out of the election."},{"start":206.12,"end":215.94,"text":"The second point is that I've got to be in a position where we cannot let Mrs. Meyer come here and take the same hard-nosed line about the election."},{"start":215.96,"end":216.62,"text":"That's all done now."},{"start":217.44,"end":221,"text":"Right now, this is going to be settled."},{"start":221.12,"end":222,"text":"And we're going to move."},{"start":222.22,"end":228.41,"text":"I mean, she's got to, if she comes in with that, I go over and prepare and propose the usual toast and all that sort of thing."},{"start":228.43,"end":230.85,"text":"And we're all working for peace, et cetera."},{"start":231.43,"end":233.31,"text":"It just isn't the time to do that."},{"start":233.33,"end":235.47,"text":"I'll propose the toast and the rest."},{"start":235.59,"end":243.19,"text":"But I want you to be sure that Rabin knows that she must not come here and say, well, we're ready to win."},{"start":243.29,"end":244.41,"text":"I told him that yesterday."},{"start":244.43,"end":245.57,"text":"I want him to come."},{"start":246.4,"end":248.94,"text":"Probably they don't want to say that."},{"start":248.98,"end":250.32,"text":"The Israelis probably don't know."},{"start":251.06,"end":255.38,"text":"If we're going to play this game with these people, they've got to play a more conciliatory game with us."},{"start":255.92,"end":258.84,"text":"They can't because they give enough, the Israelis."},{"start":258.88,"end":260.46,"text":"These people are trying to give something."},{"start":260.6,"end":263.8,"text":"I'm not sure what they're willing to give, but we'll know that after I've talked to them."},{"start":264.58,"end":267.73,"text":"And then we'll know how hard we can be generous to the Israelis."},{"start":269.21,"end":272.59,"text":"But in any event, the Israelis have to take a more conciliatory approach."},{"start":272.63,"end":273.69,"text":"There's no question about it."},{"start":273.71,"end":274.83,"text":"They can't come in and say we..."},{"start":275.54,"end":281.72,"text":"But the thing that kills us always in the Middle East is when the state goes running like crazy without knowing where it's going."},{"start":282.38,"end":290.99,"text":"The things we've done well is when we kept maneuvering people until we always had more options than they, until somebody cracked."},{"start":291.01,"end":298.92,"text":"I mean, every negotiation solved, but then Vietnam, everyone that has worked has been maneuvered."},{"start":300.99,"end":301.47,"text":"What is the..."},{"start":302.05,"end":312.3,"text":"I just don't want him to... Did you get the word, Rogers, about the... or the statement about the... Well, you know, Sullivan had a thing I called you about last night about the hit and loss."},{"start":312.58,"end":314.6,"text":"Yes, and they also know about the hit on Campbell."},{"start":315.9,"end":318.34,"text":"That's really... You're having your men in there now, Elsa."},{"start":318.46,"end":319.14,"text":"I'll just call up..."},{"start":320.05,"end":322.45,"text":"a border or Russia, that does it, I don't think."},{"start":322.89,"end":323.31,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":323.35,"end":325.77,"text":"I'll let them worry about that later on."},{"start":325.79,"end":328.39,"text":"Solomon or he recommended last Easter."},{"start":328.45,"end":330.93,"text":"No, Solomon is with us now completely since Easter."},{"start":331.95,"end":334.89,"text":"I'll come in in about 20 minutes."},{"start":335.1,"end":339.58,"text":"Now let's go around the island with him first."},{"start":341.94,"end":342.2,"text":"All right."},{"start":342.3,"end":345.82,"text":"I think you probably wanted the photograph along with the advice."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger met to discuss various personnel appointments and high-stakes foreign policy strategies in the Middle East and Southeast Asia. The conversation focused on the loyalty of potential administration appointees, such as J. William Middendorf and William P. Clements, as well as the need to manage Secretary of State William P. Rogers's involvement in Egyptian negotiations. Nixon emphasized the importance of maintaining a firm, strategic negotiating posture and expressed concern that Israeli leadership adopt a more conciliatory approach to facilitate progress toward a peace settlement.","topics":["Middle East peace negotiations","Personnel appointments","US-Israel relations","Loyalty","Foreign policy strategy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-08T09:36:36.422Z"},"topicSlugs":["middle-east-peace-negotiations","personnel-appointments","us-israel-relations","loyalty","foreign-policy-strategy"],"audioDurationSec":352,"audioFiles":[{"file":"862-009.mp3","bytes":8442578,"durationSec":351.64,"bitrate":192073,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:00.696Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:44:50.105Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/862-009.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/862-009","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/862/conversation-862-009","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}